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View Full Version : Who would Terminate if this didn't improve?



Cadillac
03-15-2012, 09:18 AM
I've mentioned this family a few times. It's the flopper, and the late payment (By the way they paid me first thing this morning, AWESOME!

In the last few months I've also come to my wits with her behavior during the day. She's Three, and she's a crier!

When she first came into care I worked really hard to curb the behaviour. She stopped crying when she had to go pee, wanted a drink, when I said no, and so on.

Last few months I've seen some SERIOUS regression. She's disrupting the program with serious silliness or . . . of course . . . crying. She cries over snack, activities (which she used to LOOOOOOVE!), lunch, nap, afternoon activities, going to the park, leaving the park. MY GOD!:mad:

My program is suffering immensely. With four 2 year olds it's important to keep their attention to complete an educational, or even just a fun, activity. Nothing is being completed anymore because of this girls behavior.

I've asked for a meting with the parents

Who would term if this didn't improve?

Am I just being snooty? Expecting too much since my other children are angels?

fruitloop
03-15-2012, 09:34 AM
I would...and have but with a mutual agreement from the parents. Her parents didn't want her in a place that she didn't seem happy and I didn't want an unhappy child here. My situation was a bit different though...she was fine and happy and then over the summer break with her teacher mom, her transition back into daycare didn't go very well. There were a lot of changes when she came back. All the older kids were gone and new babies replaced them and she was now 1 of the oldest. It was a lot for her to take in and she spent a lot of time wanting to just be alone and cried a lot. The parents and I talked about it and they decided to move her somewhere with older kids.

Cadillac
03-15-2012, 09:39 AM
I was playing with the idea that she's not that happy here. She's happy when she's doing what SHE wants, and only then. I know the rules are gray at her house. I think that she may be happier where she gets to just play all day. I worry about her transition to kindergarten as she is not close to knowing what she needs to. But . . . I'm not her parent. I can't keep her just so I KNOW she'll be ready for school.

Sandbox Sally
03-15-2012, 11:18 AM
Flex, I had a 2.5 yo like this. She was miserable here. She would sit on my couch, and if we did any kind of transition, she'd melt down. I ended up having a very frank discussion with her parents, and they voluntarily decided to withdraw her to try a half day preschool instead. I am sure her parents don't want your little one to be upset every day either. I think being honest and open with them about what you're seeing every single day will make them act on her behalf and withdraw her from your day home. Sometimes, no matter what we do, or how engaged we have them, some kids just aren't going to mesh.

Cadillac
03-15-2012, 11:31 AM
You're right. It sucks though. Hurts my heart.

She's happy when she gets to do whatever she wants ie. free time, outing, nap time.

I've sent the parents an email. I think I've done all I can.

*owwwwwwww my heart!*

Sandbox Sally
03-15-2012, 11:39 AM
I understand. I miss Z too, but not as much as I missed my peaceful daycare, and my SANITY.

Momof4
03-15-2012, 12:21 PM
I have to agree that a girl that age shouldn't behave that way and if the parents aren't working with you it's hopeless. That is my unwritten rule for my daycare but I do mention it to parents at the interview. I will go through ANYTHING and have, as long as the parents are working hard to improve any issue that arises. If not, I have terminated 2X in the past because of that, but have also continued with 2 other difficult children who came around quickly with their parent's wonderful help.

playfelt
03-15-2012, 12:37 PM
I have a three year old crier that comes two days a week. She was full time last year - dad's a teacher and mom started mat leave in the spring but child finished out the school year. In theory she was to come part time in the summer but that only ended up being a few days here and there - mostly days baby had a doctor's check up or they wanted to get something done - mom found it very difficult to handle both kids so if dad was going somewhere child came to me while I handled all my daycare kids. Then late Sept I got a call from them asking if I could take her a couple days a week just to get her back into routine of the kids - she expected mom to be her playmate and mom was tired of obliging. Child cries if the tv is turned off, cries if it is not on when she gets here, cries if she needs to pee - glad to hear this isn't unique cause this is the first one for me, cries if I say it is time to do anything, cries if she wants something which means she gets ignored, and in between all that just pouts and blubbers. But she is that way at home too if she isnt' getting her own way which is why the parents sent her back to me. At first they never admitted this but over the next few months of me mentioning how out of control the crying had been they were honest. She is only two days a week and I am trying to hang in there till June and dad is done school again. But I am going to suggest that come Sept they put her into preschool because she will start school the following year and is not ready emotionally/socially at all. Summer I haven't decided yet - depends on when my current leaving for school leave and new babies start - they can cry but she is not coming here every day just to blubber no thanks.

Inspired by Reggio
03-15-2012, 12:46 PM
I agree - I am a pretty patient and tolerant person and willing to work with children through the 'normal stages of development' to help them learn the skills and strategies needed to thrive ... but a child who has NEGATIVE BEHAVIOR because it is being tolerated in some aspect of her life - well if we are not all on the same page it will NEVER get better and I know that from experience sadly!

I have made this mistake myself with a family who I preserved through because I thought it was the professional thing to do - the kid is not a danger to anyone else just a DRAMA QUEEN with some seriously negative attitude and control issues - and while I do bring up the issues with the child's behaviour when it arises, and gently educate that the 'cause' might be XYZ and we need to shore up that consistency and so forth the parents just do not SEE that it is their lack of consistency, not saying what they mean - aka empty threats to try to get her to behave and than rewarding her negative behaviour by caving and giving her what she wanted in the first that is actually resulting in this child's challenging behaviour - and while 4 days out of 5 the child will 'manage' here fine outside of drop of and pick up when I have to listen to the mother parent the challenge is that when she is not managing it is HELL cause her tantrums are extreme and well she is turning SIX shortly so bigger and stronger and I wish in hindsight I had terminated a long time ago but kept falling for that 'provider guilt' of while at least in program she is getting some consistency and learning some skills and strategies to be a 'positive person' cause I know that no other program would take her - however she is almost ready to naturally graduate out of my program and it just seems 'easier' to count down those days than to go through the conflict of terminating cause I know from the perspective of the parent it will be a 'but she has been like this for years why is it suddenly a problem NOW' kinda argument :rolleyes:

If you are seeing issues at the START of a daycare relationship I would be nipping them in the bud with a' time line' for improvement otherwise ya before you know it 5 years have past and you have 20 new grey hairs ;)

Cadillac
03-15-2012, 12:46 PM
Playfelt - OMG! You try and try and try and then you have a good day and you praise more than you've praised any child in your life.

I love these parents but they are definitely the 'hippie' sort. They've been honest that mom gives in and dad is the disciplinarian (Dad's discipline leaves something to be desired) The other day dad told me that they don't take anything of her 's***' anymore and haven't for a while. but if they didn't . . . . things would be different by now.

I think I would have an easier time letting go if it didn't mean that my other 3 year old girl was left without a playmate. It SOOOOO hard to find kids that age and I'm so big on everyone having a friend their own age. Poor thing would be left with nothing but 2 year olds to play with. NO FUN!

playfelt
03-15-2012, 01:24 PM
What I do with my crier is call her bluff so to speak. I treat the crying the same as if she was yelling and having a tantrum because to a certain extent that is what she is doing. tears get sympathy tantrums get timeout. Well when you are three and use tears as a way to manipulate just as you would if you were having a tantrum and screaming and stamping your feet you get treated the same.

When you start to look at the crying from that perspective it makes dealing with it easier in the sense of negative consequences do work eventually. Now I am getting to the point I can just give her "that look" and she turns the tears to a pout/blubber but at least it is quieter.

We are so conditioned to respond to tears that we forget that kids use them instead of words and instead of actions when they are older because they learned in infancy/toddlerhood that the method worked. Now they are three and time to teach a new lesson - they don't work.

Cadillac
03-15-2012, 01:34 PM
What I do with my crier is call her bluff so to speak. I treat the crying the same as if she was yelling and having a tantrum because to a certain extent that is what she is doing. tears get sympathy tantrums get timeout. Well when you are three and use tears as a way to manipulate just as you would if you were having a tantrum and screaming and stamping your feet you get treated the same.

When you start to look at the crying from that perspective it makes dealing with it easier in the sense of negative consequences do work eventually. Now I am getting to the point I can just give her "that look" and she turns the tears to a pout/blubber but at least it is quieter.

We are so conditioned to respond to tears that we forget that kids use them instead of words and instead of actions when they are older because they learned in infancy/toddlerhood that the method worked. Now they are three and time to teach a new lesson - they don't work.

This is what I do. She is to go and sit on the couch and have her cry and come back when she is ready. Or, if it's lunch or a letter activity she is to sit there until she does what is expected, tears or not. If I tell her to 'put the tears away as this is an expectation' I get the blubber . . . . for about 30seconds, with the redirection to the task the tears come back.

I couldn't help but laugh the other day: We were at the beach and she was directed not to throw sand as it gets into kids eyes. She got two warning s and then her time out on the bench on the boardwalk. She was quiet, no tears (I commented to my assistant that this was great, she was taking her time out without the normal wails) . . . then an old couple approaches. When trhey were ten feet away 3yo starts to WAIL!!!!!! . . . Couple goes 'awwwwwwww' I go 'NONONO she's got a time out, don't feed into HER PLEEEEEEAAAASE!" couple laughs and continues walking . . . . . 1 min later . . mother approaches . . . same thing happens. This happened at least twice more. As soon as I would tell the pedestrians what was going on the crocodile tears would immediately cease and the look I got from her OOOOOOOOH MAN!

playfelt
03-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Do kids really think we are that naive?

They get so annoyed when their games don't work. And you know what, sad to say but that is what allows us as caregivers to stick it out with a child like that is to in a sense have the last laugh.

sunnydays
03-15-2012, 02:01 PM
I am almost embarrassed to admit it, but my own 3 1/2 year old is a crier :o I do as the ladies above have mentioned and he goes to his room to cry it out on his own...in fact, sometimes he even sends himself there when he is upset. Every time something doesn't go his way or we say no to him, he cries. He is sensitive and hates it when we raise our voices at him, but the crying drives me nuts! I sure hope he grows out of it soon! I only add this because I want to add a parent's perspective and that this child's parents may be struggling with it at home too. I am consistent and I don't give into his crying, but he still does it and has numerous "cry outs" in his room per day. Sometimes I have better luck if I can stop him before he starts to cry...when I can see it coming I will remind him firmly of the consequences and sometimes he is able to gulp back the cry before it escapes. Best of luck to you with your crier ;)

Lou
03-15-2012, 02:12 PM
I unfortunately just had to terminate a crier. A freaking FIVE YEAR OLD!!! She cried every day all day (came 3 days a week), whenever she was dropped off, there was some sort of transition or meal time. All the while her twin brother would throw explosive tantrums. I gave this 1 1/2 months, and with no improvement, awkwardly had to let the family go (friends of ours, and neighbours 2 doors down). It was soooooo disruptive to the daycare day and incredibly unfair to the my other dck's. Bye bye.

Momof4
03-15-2012, 04:00 PM
Yesterday morning my almost 4 year old boy cried his face off when his Mom was trying to get out the door. She kept hugging him and talking to him until I finally told her that he is taking control of her by carrying on this way and she shouldn't fall for it. When she picked him up she still felt guilty. If the parents didn't fall for this nonsense it sure would help the children. You know darn well this little boy has NEVER behaved that way for me, but he's been with me since he was a baby, 3 years now.

Cadillac
03-15-2012, 05:36 PM
Meeting with the parents tomorrow night. wish me luck!

I have some advice but I need to figure out how to suggest it without telling these parents how to raise their child. SOOOOO awkward and I know I wouldn't appreciate it

Sarah
03-16-2012, 02:00 PM
FlexFunCare, I am not sure I understand.

This is a 2yo right? And she cries when you want her to follow your "educational" program?

But she has no problem with free play?

Am I right here???

If I am, why don't you let her play by herself and do your things with the others?

I have read all your comments ladies, and as much as I understand what you are saying, it is a 2yo we are talking about... It's still a baby. At 2 yo, they are learning, not all at the same pace. I have 2 of them here, twin boys. They are the complete opposite! One love directed activities, the other one just wants free play. They have plenty of time to mature for school. They have 3 years in fact. They don't HAVE to go at 4, they can start at 5, or even 6. By law, it is not required to go to kindergarden...

And I can give you my son as an exemple. He was going to a daycare center, and was miserable all day long. Hated directed play, wanted free play ONLY. And alone. Of course, we pulled him out of there, it was too structured for our immature boy! We put him in a home daycare, where he was aloud to do free play when the others where doing the "program". And he blossomed there! He was such a happy boy. By the time he was 5, he was ready to start school. It was hard because in his case, he could have waited a year. But I didn't know then that I wasn't requiered to send him for kindergarden. We supported him, and now he is in first grade, and he his a great kid, follows the rules, is funny, smart, participating, friendly, a positive leader...

My way to see things is a little bit different. I want kids to be kids and accompany them in their development, but not force them in the way I think it should be.

Good luck with this! Follow your gut! Of course you can call me if you need to talk about it! Sometimes, just venting does the trick!

Sarah

fruitloop
03-16-2012, 02:35 PM
I don't think it's JUST her educational program that this kid doesn't want to do Sarah, She mentioned quite a few things that she cries over. I also strongly disagree that a 2 year old is a baby as well. 2 years olds are capable of a lot if the expectations are set forth for them while still being able to be a kid. I'm sure she isn't expecting a 2 year old to sit and do school work but at 2 she should be able to sit through a circle time. I have 18 month old kids that can and do sit through at least 10 - 15 minutes of circle time. Some will sit longer than others.

sunnydays
03-16-2012, 07:20 PM
Actually, in the original post it was mentioned that the child is 3 years old...that means she will likely be going to school next year and will need to learn not to cry about everything. I mentioned that my son is a bit of a crier, BUT he never does it when he is not at home. He is going to preschool 5 mornings a week and he has never cried at school or given any trouble to his teacher (that I know of). I am also doing everything possible to snap him out of the crying. I do think we have to have reasonable expectations of the kids...kids do rise to expectations often and if we set the bar too low then they remain "babies" for much longer than necessary and this does not do them any service as they will struggle to adjust when they start school.

Sarah
03-16-2012, 10:14 PM
Sorry, I went back to read, and yes, it is about a 3 years old.

But it doesn't change a bit what I think.

3 years old is still really young. And as much as we, as adults, and as a society, we want them to grow fast, 3 years old is NOTHING compared to the 80 years coming.

She doesn't have to be able to do circle time, she doesn't have to be terminated for that. This is what I think. But I do understand that fighting against a crier is hard, so why not give her what she seeks: free play! FlexFunCare does mention that she is happy when getting free play. So let her grow out of that stage at her own pace. We can, as caregivers, accompany the kids to achievements (in all the spheres of their young life to come), but we have to hold their hands, not pull them towards what we beleive should be.

I know I don't see things the way most people do, but I see this as respecting the child. Now if "nothing" was pleasing her, I would say it is not a fit and she is unhappy. But "something"IS making her happy, so why go against it. Let her come to you instead of forcing her...

Sarah
03-16-2012, 10:18 PM
kids do rise to expectations often and if we set the bar too low then they remain "babies" for much longer than necessary and this does not do them any service as they will struggle to adjust when they start school.

You are right, but on the other hand, if you set the expectations too high, than you do not do them any service either. You will slowly destroy their self esteem.

They are still babies. Or if you prefer, children. With their own capacities, their own personnalities, their own forces and weeknesses...

Raising kids is not about following a hard line, but about accompanying kids along a line. Sometimes, kids will not follow the line, and instead of pulling them back, you follow them, and help them come back to it.

Maturity doesn't come to all at the same time, at the same age.

Momof4
03-16-2012, 10:19 PM
Oh Sarah, how many children are in your daycare? When you have 5 children in care you have to make sure they are all doing the same thing, playing or learning or eating or napping at the same time. Yes, freeplay is very important and I include it in my program, but a 3 year old nonstop crier is not acceptable.

I have 3 children in my daycare under age 2 right now so I do circle time at the dining room table so that they are all sitting, with the little ones in their boosters. I read the stories, pull out the felt board & puppets and sing the songs as they are finishing up lunch, then I let them have some freeplay before naptime. It works fantastic for me.

mom-in-alberta
03-17-2012, 01:24 AM
3 years old is PLENTY old enough to be told to put the tears away when you are asked to come to the table for lunch, get your shoes on to go outside, or to put the book away because we are now going to do something different. The fact is, many of us cannot let the children do what they want, when they want, all day long.
It seems to me; that the little girl is disruptive at every turn, as opposed to certain/specific events. If she is allowed to ignore the fact that she has been asked to do something, it will only contribute to the problem. How is that teaching her anything??
Yes, as providers we need to allow for a certain amount of flexibility. But the children do not rule the roost, we and their parents do.
And a 2 year old is no longer a baby, in my mind. When a child turns 2 in our house, they get to begin doing more things that "the big kids" do; such as sitting at the table in a booster, etc. The provider isn't looking for this child to sit and do an hour's worth of schoolwork, she is asking her to do some very age appropriate things.
When I had a crier, and it became an ongoing, attention seeking thing; I would just place them in a closeby location, where she was safe but not disturbing everyone. She was told to come back when she was all done and ready to play. If she came out still blubbering, she was reminded of the expectation and gently led back to the quiet spot.
It's one thing for a child to be feeling sad, having a bad day or to be "not quite themselves". On those occasions, yes; you give a little extra love and attention, throw some more hugs, or pats on the back and some additional reassurance. It's quite another for a child to CONSISTENTLY (as in daily) cry because they wanted the red crayon, or they don't like peas or someone else said that they were a unicorn (and the crier wanted to be a unicorn today. True story, LoL). This is when we need to teach them to use thier WORDS to express how they are feeling, and that empty tears will gain them nothing whatsoever.

Inspired by Reggio
03-17-2012, 12:02 PM
Ya - I am all for allowing 'choice' for children, following a child's lead and my program contains 90% free play ... I think you can do this and still have realistic expectations for behaviour and supporting the acquisition of socially acceptable communication!

While crying is normal at ALL AGES when one is hurt or suffering a SEVERE loss and should be 'supported' for a short term under those circumstances as an initial form of communication .... CRYING our of ANGER at being asked to do something that you might not WANT to do but NEED to is not a socially acceptable way of communicating and as soon as children begin to develop communication in my program they are encouraged to COMMUNICATE with words or signs - not to CRY / SCREAM at me when they do not get their own way or their need met 'immediately' ... even my 10 month old is already starting to sign 'more' at meal time instead of 'crying' to let me know he wants more food.

And while my group gets a much larger amount of 'control' in the program than most would allow there are times of the day in my program when 'there is no choice' but to follow the direction you have been give .... because like life there are things we MUST do even when we do not WANT to because they are part of a function home and life and children are expected to accept that with GRACE specially once they have communication ... we all come to the table for meal times - do not have to eat but you do have to come keep us company, we all get dressed to go outside, we all have rest time, we all help with tidy up, during learning activities if you do not want to participate you respect the ones who DO.

If a child does not want to 'engage' in a learning activity that we are doing as a group - while I encourage them to come I do not force them to participate and if they wanted to come but are 'disruptive' to participating they are in fact asked to LEAVE the activity until they are ready to be respectful of the group ... HOWEVER they do not get to run around distracting the others who DO want to participate by doing whatever they 'want' during that time because my EYES are busy supervising the 'group' and I need to know they are safe and engaged too - their choice is to participate with us, or just sit and watch us if they do not want to 'participate or to sit engaged with a book/puzzle quietly within eyesight of me on a carpet square .... if they are screaming about those 'choices' cause they would rather be doing something else that is not currently a 'choice' they would find themselves in BED until they were ready to make an appropriate choice quietly without impacting the choice of the others ... IMO that is teaching a child to respect the needs of the group you are a part of and that while you might not get your 'way' that you need to accept that 'adversity' with grace and choose the 'best' option available to you in the meantime...and reinforces that SCREAMING to try to get your own way at the expense of others should NOT WORK in society!

Sarah
03-19-2012, 12:34 PM
Oh Sarah, how many children are in your daycare? When you have 5 children in care you have to make sure they are all doing the same thing, playing or learning or eating or napping at the same time. Yes, freeplay is very important and I include it in my program, but a 3 year old nonstop crier is not acceptable.

I have 3 children in my daycare under age 2 right now so I do circle time at the dining room table so that they are all sitting, with the little ones in their boosters. I read the stories, pull out the felt board & puppets and sing the songs as they are finishing up lunch, then I let them have some freeplay before naptime. It works fantastic for me.

I care for 5 that are not mine, I also have my own daughter and my 2 school age sons.

I never said that a routine was not important. We eat, nap at the same time. I do have a crier here. And during those times, I just let him cry!

But when one of my 2 years old doesn't want to do the craft that I planned, when he really seems more interested by the toy he was playing with, why not?

Sarah
03-19-2012, 12:39 PM
3 years old is PLENTY old enough to be told to put the tears away when you are asked to come to the table for lunch, get your shoes on to go outside, or to put the book away because we are now going to do something different. The fact is, many of us cannot let the children do what they want, when they want, all day long.
It seems to me; that the little girl is disruptive at every turn, as opposed to certain/specific events. If she is allowed to ignore the fact that she has been asked to do something, it will only contribute to the problem. How is that teaching her anything??
Yes, as providers we need to allow for a certain amount of flexibility. But the children do not rule the roost, we and their parents do.
And a 2 year old is no longer a baby, in my mind. When a child turns 2 in our house, they get to begin doing more things that "the big kids" do; such as sitting at the table in a booster, etc. The provider isn't looking for this child to sit and do an hour's worth of schoolwork, she is asking her to do some very age appropriate things.
When I had a crier, and it became an ongoing, attention seeking thing; I would just place them in a closeby location, where she was safe but not disturbing everyone. She was told to come back when she was all done and ready to play. If she came out still blubbering, she was reminded of the expectation and gently led back to the quiet spot.
It's one thing for a child to be feeling sad, having a bad day or to be "not quite themselves". On those occasions, yes; you give a little extra love and attention, throw some more hugs, or pats on the back and some additional reassurance. It's quite another for a child to CONSISTENTLY (as in daily) cry because they wanted the red crayon, or they don't like peas or someone else said that they were a unicorn (and the crier wanted to be a unicorn today. True story, LoL). This is when we need to teach them to use thier WORDS to express how they are feeling, and that empty tears will gain them nothing whatsoever.

I know what a cryer is, I have one here! It is draining my energy. But they are kids, human beings. Yes they are growing, I am not saying you cannot expect more from a 2 years old than a 1yo. What I am saying is that you cannot expect from all the 2 years old to develop the same way. Same thing for a 3yo.

So if this kid like free play, why force her to do other things. And I am not talking about eating or sleeping at the same time here! I am talking of giving the choice between circle time (which she probably doesn't like much) and free play.

Of course, I don't know the dcp setting. Can she let her have free play time while the others are doing the program? I could, so I would.

Mamma_Mia
03-19-2012, 01:58 PM
Sarah - everyone is allowed to their own opinion, I just do not agree with your way of thinking at all.

******************** ******************

Anyways.....

I also have a 3yr old who's a cryer - parents baby him like crazy, he gets carried everywhere, parents sit and feed him and is still in diapers. He is a BIG boy, regular diapers don't come big enough for him so he's in pull-ups for the 8-9yrs old, the overnight ones.
Example: today he was playing with some cars and wanted another one accross the room. He called out to me, I asked what he needed, he pointed towards the cars. me-"oh nice you're playing with the cars!!" (he still doesn't speak either so I didn't know what he wanted or was saying) Child breaks down into full on blubbering-runny nose-melt down..........why? he wanted the other car. Me-"If you want the other car....go and get it!" Crying stopped. yeah! So that's ok? that's allowed? I don't think so. I told him that crying for no reason is not acceptable. YET, when the parents are NOT here he knows how to put his coat & shoes on alone. Open the front door dead bolt!!!!! alone! (big no-no) climb the big jungle gym etc. but when they arrive he acts like a 1yr old, & they feed into it.

OHHHH and he used the potty twice today for the first time with me! I didn't even have to coax him, I asked if he wanted to try it and TA-DA! Mom call's during nap time once a week, I told her that he did potty and she was shocked! I mean this kid is beyond ready, He wants it and the parents are holding him back.

Do I agree with "they are babies" no! If they were they would be called babies not toddlers meaning they are not babies....they can do alot more then ppl give them credit for.

Biggest issue I have with the "still babies" is that when do you stop treating them like babies? at 3? 4? 8? 12? 16? 25? It's a bad trend that WILL effect them as adults! They don't learn how to take care of themselves and truly believe it's someone else's job to do it for them.

sunnydays
03-19-2012, 02:07 PM
I agree about the babying thing...I see some of the kids at my son's preschool get carried into the school and it seems ridiculous to me...I haven't carried my son since he was under 2 unless he is hurt or something! Anyway, I am wondering about the child in your care who is three and not potty trained, not talking, etc. Have you ruled out some sort of developmental problem? 3 seems awfully late to not be talking. I know a lot of kids potty train later these days and I see that you are dealing with parents who baby him, but the talking would concern me.




Sarah - everyone is allowed to their own opinion, I just do not agree with your way of thinking at all.

******************** ******************

Anyways.....

I also have a 3yr old who's a cryer - parents baby him like crazy, he gets carried everywhere, parents sit and feed him and is still in diapers. He is a BIG boy, regular diapers don't come big enough for him so he's in pull-ups for the 8-9yrs old, the overnight ones.
Example: today he was playing with some cars and wanted another one accross the room. He called out to me, I asked what he needed, he pointed towards the cars. me-"oh nice you're playing with the cars!!" (he still doesn't speak either so I didn't know what he wanted or was saying) Child breaks down into full on blubbering-runny nose-melt down..........why? he wanted the other car. Me-"If you want the other car....go and get it!" Crying stopped. yeah! So that's ok? that's allowed? I don't think so. I told him that crying for no reason is not acceptable. YET, when the parents are NOT here he knows how to put his coat & shoes on alone. Open the front door dead bolt!!!!! alone! (big no-no) climb the big jungle gym etc. but when they arrive he acts like a 1yr old, & they feed into it.

OHHHH and he used the potty twice today for the first time with me! I didn't even have to coax him, I asked if he wanted to try it and TA-DA! Mom call's during nap time once a week, I told her that he did potty and she was shocked! I mean this kid is beyond ready, He wants it and the parents are holding him back.

Do I agree with "they are babies" no! If they were they would be called babies not toddlers meaning they are not babies....they can do alot more then ppl give them credit for.

Biggest issue I have with the "still babies" is that when do you stop treating them like babies? at 3? 4? 8? 12? 16? 25? It's a bad trend that WILL effect them as adults! They don't learn how to take care of themselves and truly believe it's someone else's job to do it for them.

lunademiel
03-19-2012, 02:08 PM
I have to agree that a girl that age shouldn't behave that way and if the parents aren't working with you it's hopeless. That is my unwritten rule for my daycare but I do mention it to parents at the interview. I will go through ANYTHING and have, as long as the parents are working hard to improve any issue that arises. If not, I have terminated 2X in the past because of that, but have also continued with 2 other difficult children who came around quickly with their parent's wonderful help.

Just out of curiosity, what could the parents do to help if her behavior was not like this at home?
Thanks in advance!

Mamma_Mia
03-19-2012, 02:16 PM
I agree about the babying thing...I see some of the kids at my son's preschool get carried into the school and it seems ridiculous to me...I haven't carried my son since he was under 2 unless he is hurt or something! Anyway, I am wondering about the child in your care who is three and not potty trained, not talking, etc. Have you ruled out some sort of developmental problem? 3 seems awfully late to not be talking. I know a lot of kids potty train later these days and I see that you are dealing with parents who baby him, but the talking would concern me.

I'm not sure about it. At first it looks like he doesn't have to speak because he would just cry and be asked 500 questions until one suits his needs and then he nods. I was trying to test him earlier and he would just repeat what I'd say....not actually answer me.

me - can you say car?
.........
me - say c...c...car
.........
me - ******** are you listening to me?
.........
me - yes?
yes

(face palm!)

mom-in-alberta
03-19-2012, 04:09 PM
Just out of curiosity, what could the parents do to help if her behavior was not like this at home?
Thanks in advance!

For me; when a parent says "Oh, they NEVER do this at home!!" I don't really believe it. I know that kids can act somewhat differently with parents vs other people, I do. But there MUST be some of the same behaviours, they just don't SEE IT.

And Sarah; I hope we aren't being too harsh on you. There is obviously just a difference in opinion. The challenge with this little girl seems to be that she is defiant and emotional over EVERYTHING. If it were just an issue of "I don't want to do a craft, today", I am sure that our original poster would not have this much of an issue. But as I mentioned, the little girl is refusing to do pretty much anything and everything asked of her. We have to draw some boundaries and rules somehow, right? Nobody is saying that we need to turn these kids into some kind of rule-following-automoton-robot-people. But in GROUP CARE, sometimes we need to do what the GROUP is doing. Even if it's not exactly what we want to do at that precise moment. We have to function as a unit. So if circle time is upstairs and the playroom is downstairs, then I guess free play at that time is not going to work.

In any case, I hope that things get better with this family real soon!!!

Momof4
03-19-2012, 04:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, what could the parents do to help if her behavior was not like this at home?
Thanks in advance!
In my experience, the children are the same at home and daycare or even better behaved at daycare. Why? Because they cannot manipulate us the way they can wrap their parents around their cute little fingers.

We expect and demand good behaviour from all the children at the same time because if we don't it would be chaos. And we've all experienced chaos at one time or another while transitioning or going through a particularly difficult phase with a little one.

So when I see a behavioural issue happening I ask the parents if they are seeing the same thing at home. Usually they say, oh yeah, he/she has been doing that lately! Then I ask them how they are handling it at home. Usually they haven't been doing anything because they are all first time parents and still learning and need a tiny bit of guidance from someone with a whole lot more experience - me! Then I tell them how I am handling the issue at daycare and stress that it is not their parenting, but something that the child is just trying out as they grow and learn and stress even more that we must take charge and help the child learn good behaviour.

Sarah
03-19-2012, 07:43 PM
Well I have to say that this particular discussion made me think a lot today.

My cryer is sooooo annoying me today. So I thought about you and what you wrote. We are not totally opposites in our opinions, but it got me to see that I might be bending a little bit too much for this dck

Today, mom arrives (and she knows her child is a huge cryer, I've told her numerous time) and he is crying. He wants to get of the toy he is playing with, and needs my help, and also needs to put his shoes back on. So he comes to me, and I sit him and say:"now lets put your shoes on" and there he goes crying and throwing himself on the ground. I could have forced him, but the situation was so ridiculous, you know, that I told him that he wouldn't get off until he was a happy camper putting his shoes on.

Mom got here, I told her what I was doing. She so wanted to hold him, but I was blocking the way (the way I was standing, not actually blocking her way!). So she went on:"Come see mommy, oh are you ok, I don't understand, he doesn't do that at home, command baby put your shoes on..." BABYING HIM BIG TIME! I told her that her son was throwing tantrums for a yes, a no, a maybe and even a yes but hold on a second!

So anyway, you got me thinking, and I am as of now starting to expect more from this particular one! Few ugly days ahead!

Sarah
03-19-2012, 07:47 PM
And Sarah; I hope we aren't being too harsh on you.

Respectfull discussion is healthy!

You all made me realize something!

I still beleive that they all are kids, if not baby (some seem to not like that calling!!!) they are really young and we are there to teach them, by having reasonnable expectation. But our expectations should never be set by comparing to other kids, because they all are differents. Of course, the comparison can be helpfull to finding abnormalities (don't know if this word is the right one to use, sorry).

sunnydays
03-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Sarah: I think that is the great thing about the forum...it makes us all think and examine the way we are doing things...or at least it should. I have learned so much through all the discussions on here! We can all learn from each others' opinions and different ways of doing things. Good luck with your little crier! Stay strong :)

Inspired by Reggio
03-20-2012, 06:08 AM
Respectfull discussion is healthy!.

Could not agree more ... I love me good debate on philosophical practices!

I respect that it is very hard to find that balance between supporting positive social emotional development in children - we want to respect and accept their feelings cause they are entitled to have them and we do not want to teach children to 'bury' those like many of us were taught back in the day with messages like 'boys dont cry be a man' and so forth.

We also want to do that while supporting the development of socially acceptable conflict resolution skills and resilience in children ... that message that oh yes it is ok to cry when hurt / sad come here and let me give you a snuggle verses it is NOT ok to throw a tantrum because you did not get your own way or had to wait a moment for your needs to be met - I know your frustrated but lets use your WORDS to solve that problem - when your body is calm down and ready to TALK I can help you.

I have a two year old who is in that 'crying' over everything stage and whenever he starts I just say "Stop! I can see your getting frustrated - take a big deep breath and try again cause I know you can do it - and crying will not ...." get your shoe on/off, will not get that puzzle piece into the puzzle or whatever is causing the start of the tantrum behaviour ... it is working wonders here and if mom and dad could get on the same page it would work at home too - however they still buy into it at pick up and 'bribe' him to stop and well hey if a tantrum will get you a Timmies donut eventually or a trip to the store for a new dinky car why wouldn't you throw one :rolleyes:

Mamma_Mia
03-20-2012, 07:27 AM
well hey if a tantrum will get you a Timmies donut eventually or a trip to the store for a new dinky car why wouldn't you throw one :rolleyes:

haha so true!
in that case waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I want a starbucks-tall-vanilla-late-140-degrees-two-sugars-chocolate-shakes-on-top-coffee now!!! ((is it coming?)) :laugh:

Cadillac
03-20-2012, 11:59 AM
UPDATE! - So I called meeting with the parents. I worded in a way that I thought was the most respectful possible without telling them that their 'babying' is affecting their kid BIG TIME!

So I approached it as needing more consistency between our two houses. We set a plan for how we are dealing with the crying, meal times, structured activities, and so on.

The parents will be doing on structured activity every day that she is not here.

We talked about how hard it is to refrain from doing things FOR the children as it is easier and babying feels good to some parents. They agreed and are giving her more to do on her own at home.

Over the weekends, there was a change.

She takes part in activities with enthusiasm, eats her lunch, takes big breaths where there would be tears. she WANTS to do things on her own. TWO DAYS WAS ALL IT TOOK!

She earned COUNTLESS stickers the last few days.

I'm really happy

Inspired by Reggio
03-20-2012, 12:44 PM
Oh that is an AWESOME update ... communicating with clients is KEY for sure cause when we are all working on the same page children really DO want to thrive and be happy too!

Sandbox Sally
03-20-2012, 01:17 PM
Flex that is GREAT news. Congrats on the breakthrough!

fruitloop
03-20-2012, 02:23 PM
That's awesome news! Having meeting with parents can be a stressful time, you just never know how they're going to take things. I'm glad they took it well and are now trying to be on the same page as you!

mom-in-alberta
03-21-2012, 03:00 AM
Whaaat?? That is amazing, and I am so happy to hear.
Great handling of the situation, and meeting it head on. Atta girl!! :)

Sarah
03-21-2012, 05:11 AM
wow great! I am happy for you! And good thing the parents are in it with you

Momof4
03-21-2012, 04:41 PM
I'm really happy for you too! I like to encourage independence in children as soon as they can do anything, holding their own bottle, standing up and holding my hands before I pick them up, by 20 months or so to help to put on their own clothing, etc. I always let the parents know that their children are doing these things for me and encourage them to get their children to do things for them BEFORE they do them for me. After all, what parent wants to hear from their daycare provider that their child walked or talked or anything special for someone else before them. So that's my sneaky little secret to encourage the parents to encourage their child.

Cadillac
03-21-2012, 10:03 PM
That change is really amazing. She's still going strong too. Thanks guys.

Week's like this is why I went to school for counselling. Ending up with a daycare was just the cherry on top.

You can tell the little one is happier all around.