So...How long do I let her cry before I move on?

[Sandbox Sally]

Edited for peace of mind :)

[sunnydays]

Wow! 5 weeks! That is rough. I think I'd be ready to terminate personally. It's sad, but 5 weeks is a long time to adjust (assuming she is full-time). Good luck with the decision.

[playfelt]

As part of the conflicting beliefs could also be different parenting styles and the child is not willing to adapt. In that case there is no hope unless you want to get downright stubborn - which can be translated as mean by some then it isn't going to work. I doubt mom is working to help the situation as much as she might be letting on because she won't realize what behaviours she is doing or not doing that is actually contributing to the problem.

If you have options then let them go. If you don't and need the income then work with the child at your house in spite of the mom and it may take quite awhile longer. Also realize the older the child gets the more they will mature and understand what is acceptable and not.

[apples and bananas]

5 weeks???? You're a stronger woman then I am! I have a new little one that cries most of the day. But she still naps for 2 hours and eats like a champ. And she's getting a little better and better every day. I can't imagion going 5 weeks with the constant crying and the short naps. I think you've done all you can... let them go and get your sanity back.

[michellesmunchkins]

I had one who took 6 months!!!!!!! Parents were not on board for setting up similar 'parenting' styles and it REALLY affected this little one. I struggled and tried everything I could think of for 6 months straight. Now this little one is the perfect child and adjusted just fine. Took forever and not sure I would ever struggle that long again, but it did get better :) I can totally relate to how frustrated you are, there were days when I would just want to cry along with the little one. The others in daycare didn't like this particular child for the longest time because of the crying and even the parents would question it when they picked up their child and this little one was screaming bloody murder...my only suggestion is to be as stubborn as they are. I did all the coddling, the picking up, the telling it would be ok, and finally just got to the point where we would all ignore it and move on with our day. If she cried, she cried but we still did everything we had planned for the day...once I started to ignore it and the other kids ignored her it stopped within about 2 weeks. I really and truly believed she knew exactly what she was doing and got away with it at home..

[Sandbox Sally]

Just what I needed to hear. Her mom even came to get her early today, and asked me how long I was willing to let this go on. I just don't think that we're a good match.

I do have options. I am happy for this. I can't help but feel defeated, though!

[Errbear]

I've got some of you beat in the crying child department....a whole year!...yep, I said a whole year. Long story short...mom and dad differ in the parenting style department and I'm a mix of both. Poor kid didn't know how to deal with getting his way with dad and not getting his way with me. He was also super sucky about his damn stinky nasty blanket and once I told them to stop bringing it he eased off the meltdowns.Mom treats him like an adult and dad treats him like a baby....so frustrating sometimes but now that he's 2 and a half he knows whats expected of him when he's with me. He's so cute and I love him like he's my own son...Him and my son are only 4 days apart so they're best buddies. They just melt my heart

Mom doesn't sound very helpful, and if you have other famillies to fill the spot cut em loose. No one needs that kind of aggravation every day. At least for me the parents were more than helpful in trying to help him ease of the tears

Good luck!!!!

[Momof4]

I had one who SCREAMED for 7 months, one for 4 months, but the 4 month screamer had a milk allergy so once his parents believed they should try lactose free products he got happy, jeeeesh! The 7 month screamer is still here too and eventually I got her under control. Those are the two worst scenarios I've had. If they could all come in happy this job would be too easy, now wouldn't it?

If the parents are making suggestions and listening to your suggestions and making sure the baby's schedule is the same at home and daycare so she can adjust into routines then I say keep trying. If the Mom isn't trying to help you at all, well, good luck! You will know when you have reached your limit.

[mom-in-alberta]

Yikes. It's tough to be in that spot when you just KNOW that you can fill it with another (hopefully less woeful) child.
It would come down to the parents, for me. Doesn't sound like mom and dad are helping. So it's still going to be a long road. In 5 weeks, I think you should have seen SOMETHING improve. Maybe not perfectly all around, but at least a little bit here and there.

[Judy Trickett]

Same child from the conflicting beliefs thread...

Week 5, and she's still crying ALL day, every day. Time to let her go?

Yes, IMO, if a child is not making improvements by week two you need to start reassessing. And, if by week four the child isn't mostly transitioned with significant improvement from week one then they need to be terminated.

We also have a responsibility to the group of children in our care. And if the group has to listen to a screaming child for more than a month then we are remiss in our obligation to them. If I was a parent and knew that every day for five weeks my child had to spend 9 or 10 hours in a stressful environment listening to another child scream I would not be impressed.

It also is not fair to the provider to listen to that. There are studies out there that show that listening to a child scream non-stop has a physical impact on the brain.

Let her go - TODAY.

[Judy Trickett]

I had one who SCREAMED for 7 months, one for 4 months, but the 4 month screamer had a milk allergy so once his parents believed they should try lactose free products he got happy, jeeeesh! The 7 month screamer is still here too and eventually I got her under control. Those are the two worst scenarios I've had. If they could all come in happy this job would be too easy, now wouldn't it?

If the parents are making suggestions and listening to your suggestions and making sure the baby's schedule is the same at home and daycare so she can adjust into routines then I say keep trying. If the Mom isn't trying to help you at all, well, good luck! You will know when you have reached your limit.

I know you are a terrific provider. I KNOW this.:D

BUT....I don't think it matters how nice the parents are or how much they might "say" they are trying to help. The fact of the matter is that we have to spend 9 hours a day with the CHILD and if that child is negative to the environment then we have to move on.

I have had parents who were really nice people but their child was just not a happy person. That's just who that child WAS and no amount of trying was gonna change that child or make our daycare days happier.

At some point you just have to say "enough is enough" and move on with no guilt.

[Sandbox Sally]

I did it. Terminated. After the day we had yesterday, I knew that neither I nor the daycare kids could take it any more. Her mom was SO great about it. I am pretty sure she knew it was coming. I hope she finds alternate care fast though, because I told her I wouldn't leave her in the lurch, and that we'd try to stick it out the two weeks while she found another arrangement. I am hoping, though, that I have to return some of the deposit. ;)

Thanks for the advice ladies.

[Judy Trickett]

Ah, good that's over for you. Now it's just a waiting game with a light at the end of the tunnel.

[Bookworm]

Glad that you came to a decision that is best for everyone! Hopefully you don't have to wait long.

[Lou]

A huge weight will be lifted off your shoulders! Good for you :)

[Momof4]

I know you are a terrific provider. I KNOW this.:D

BUT....I don't think it matters how nice the parents are or how much they might "say" they are trying to help. The fact of the matter is that we have to spend 9 hours a day with the CHILD and if that child is negative to the environment then we have to move on.

I have had parents who were really nice people but their child was just not a happy person. That's just who that child WAS and no amount of trying was gonna change that child or make our daycare days happier.

At some point you just have to say "enough is enough" and move on with no guilt.

You know I respect you tremendously Judy, but I guess I hang in there because the thought of interviewing again and starting over from day one again just makes me tired. My little boy who has been here for 6 months had a really bad day today, crying for no reason whatsoever. It's exhausting and the other children actually don't like him and don't want to play with him. My goal is to turn him into a nice little boy who can learn to be social and normal and I'm sure I can do it.

Alpha, you had to do what's best for you and your daycare and I'm sure you will fill the space asap. So glad the Mom was good about it for you, so best of luck!

[Inspired by Reggio]

Yup tolerance for crying is such a personal thing ... as a result we are all going to have a varied point of when to terminate for sure!

After 20 years in the field and working many of them in infant programs where you would have up to 10 infants transition in every Fall I have a fairly high tolerance of infants transitioning into care and experiencing anxiety but not sure I could do months of STRAIGHT UNCONSOLED SCREAMING ALL DAY :eek:

Here I have been complaining about my newbie and his 'short cord' but little dude was happy for the most part initially as long as I was holding him or close by and than after couple days as long as he could SEE me and finally after two months I am now able to PEE again without taking him with me! ... but he still has periods where I miss his cues and we have a screaming fit until I can get him fed or down for a nap!

I like Momof4 I also firmly believe that the parents have to be on the same page with beliefs and working with you and I am willing to try a little longer when I know they are trying to be consistent .... IMO when a child takes MONTHS to transition into care it is because there is an inconsistency between expectations between home and care and that is creating the anxiety in the child that causes the screaming and so forth .... so for example if at home they are rocked to sleep with a bottle so have no self soothing skills because they always are 'helped' to sleep and than they come into program and they are being expected to 'figure out' how to self soothe to sleep on their own without the bottle only at night to than be rocked to sleep - they are 'confused / frustratted / anxious' about the different expectations and they express this by crying for the provider who has 'higher' expectations than the skills they have ... if the expectations were the same at both locations the child would be much quicker to master 'self soothing' because they have consistent experiences through which to practice and master the expected task .... hence if the parents are working WITH I am willing to try but if they outright say 'no we want to rock her to sleep' than I would have to say 'ok well that is not going to work here so I will give her 'x' weeks to master self soothing for nap time without screaming and disrupting the children and if she cannot due to the inconsistency between home and program than I will have to terminate ... that way I TRIED and made it clear to the client that the success of their child in the program is being compromised by THEIR choice cause I cannot rock a child to sleep with a bottle daily while getting 4 other children to sleep at the same time!

Plus crying is the only way young infants really know how to 'communicate' so it is normal during those first few months of care to have a lot of crying through out the day as we learn about each others routines and needs and learn how to read their 'cues' but once they have been in care and you can read cues to meet needs before they need to 'cry' to draw attention to them and they are developing 'words' than the crying is replaced with better forms of communication!

For example my first few weeks of care my new babe would come in happy and than after 30 minutes the crying would start and he had been fed and just woke up just had his diaper changed because I change every kid upon arrival to check for 'rash / marks on body' so he should be 'happy' and so initially I was just trying to redirect him back to playing and so forth but than after a couple of days I noticed that after about 10 minutes of not being able to redirect him I would go through the not hungry, not tired - check the diaper sure enough POOPY but dude did not smell so he could be sitting on your lap poopy and no clue and he had likely pooped and been crying because of that

[Sandbox Sally]

Thanks for the support, as always, women. Her mom actually found someone right away, so I am FREE! Hurray! I will sign one of three new little ones this Friday, and I am happy once again.

Reggio, I completely hear what you are saying re communication and crying, and also being out of her element, but this one cried when I held her unless I was walking around or bouncing her. She wasn't crying to have her needs met, because as I see it, I WAS meeting all her needs, and then some!

Do you think that some kids and providers, even if they're both great, just don't mesh?

[Inspired by Reggio]

...Do you think that some kids and providers, even if they're both great, just don't mesh?

Yup ... some personalities are just not meant to work together and sometimes children's little brains are just so complex you do not know WHY they are freaking out about one thing or another!

All throughout my career I have seen children be little Angels for Provider A and Provider B walks into the room does not do or say anything but all of a sudden the child is full of behaviour - they just do not LIKE each other for whatever reason ... some sixth sense from a past life who knows?

Back in the 17 week maternity leave era we once had a kid in centre care who would scream ALL DAY LONG unless it was ME who was holding him or sitting beside him ... NINE MONTHS this kids screamed bloody murder if I was not in the room - he was 'content' if I was in the room but he would only eat for me, fall asleep for me and so forth and if I was with another child he would loose his little noodle flapping his arms and screaming ... it was STRESSFUL for everyone including me because I basically ended up having to care for this one kid while my two coworkers had to manage the other NINE babies on their own and if I had to take a sick day or vacation it was weeks of HELL for everyone - my coworkers were awesome caring people, his parents were TRYING to encourage him to be more tolerant of other people and working on delayed gratification so that he could trust I would meet his needs when done meeting the needs of another child but the dude was just afraid of everyone one and everything ... lord help anyone if another babe started crying in the room it would take forever to calm him down! I think he took to me because I was very similar in appearance and size to his mother and our voice tones were similar ... just as his 1 year birthday was approaching we were at the point of finally having to sit down with his parents and say 'this is not going to work' cause he was due to graduate to the next infant room and I was NOT willing to make that move with him and everyone was afraid how the kid would cope with the 'change' ... and than like a light switch one day he just started 'tolerating' others and would be more happy to crawl around and play and so forth even when I left the room, started letting others feed him and so forth cause all along we kept TRYING to set goals and make progress we did not want to cow tow to 'behaviour' that might have been developed .... weirdest kid I have EVER cared for as far as phobias go - we tried everything but this kid was literally beyond distraught when others had to care for him and well at 3 months of age it was NOT BEHAVIOUR because at that age infants do not have the cognitive ability to manipulate people .... it was some sort of internal FEAR governing this kids instincts ... he would literally rather starve himself during the day than calm down enough to eat from someone other than a parent or me and thankfully for him he took to me otherwise I imagine he would have failed to thrive at all within the program and they would have had to terminate him because his mother's boss would not have tolerated her having to leave and come feed him everyday - one thing for one of my sick days but not a long term solution!

[Inspired by Reggio]

BTW - that kid was my FIRST year as an ECE and he seriously had me questioning my career choice ... thankfully that breed is 'unique' never had another like him but it could be that experience that makes every other transitioning babe a BREEZE ;)

[Sandbox Sally]

BTW - that kid was my FIRST year as an ECE and he seriously had me questioning my career choice ... thankfully that breed is 'unique' never had another like him but it could be that experience that makes every other transitioning babe a BREEZE ;)

Haha yeah I can't imagine how it could get any worse (worse worse worse...hear that echo??) lol

[Inspired by Reggio]

Haha yeah I can't imagine how it could get any worse (worse worse worse...hear that echo??) lol

Yup - also worked three years in a high needs centre where 95% of the children were involved with CAS and the family was in crisis ... generally family violence and abuse .... the children we worked with were out of this world AGGRESSIVE at times working with 3 year olds who had language that would make a sailor blush and who had PTSD and who could escalate to violence where they could pick up a lunch table and throw it across the room - literally had a child throw a fit once because someone 'scared him' and in his tantrum he ripped the SINK off the wall in the bathroom where we had removed him too to keep the OTHERS safe while he 'worked through' it!

So needless to say dealing with NORMAL childhood behaviours like a toddler biting phase or that 15 month old 'hitting' stage is a BREEZE in comparison and generally easy to 'resolve' in comparison to helping THOSE children find the skills and strategies to work through what they had been exposed to and find PEACE in life!

Sometimes I listen to clients complain about their kids tantrums because they do not want to go to bed and think WOW you have never SEEN a true tantrum - that is a piece of cake what your kid is doing there - ignore it and it will pass in a couple minutes .... some of the kids I worked with it took upwards of 30 minutes to an HOUR for them to regain control they had to work through all the stages of 'grief' in that moment from anger, denial, negotiation which often set them back to ANGER and so forth to get the point where you could actually RESOLVE the initial issue ... it was SCARY some days!

[mom-in-alberta]

Holy crap.... I think I may agree that I have never seen a "true" tantrum!! None of my kids have ever ripped a sink off the wall. So, I guess I am thankful? Joking aside, thank heaven for those kinds of programs that help kids in need at what is likely the darkest time in their young lives.

Do I think some kids/providers just aren't a match?? HECK, YEAH! Kids are people too, and just like us, there are some that you "click" with more than others and some that you get along with in the bare minimum sense of the word. I may have rocks thrown at me for saying, but I have met kids that I "just didn't like". I would never let it change my behaviour towards them, and some may argue that it's based on the parents, but I have met families where just one of the children grated on my nerves.

[Inspired by Reggio]

Oh I agree - children are human beings with the human spectrum of personality and temperment traits and yes there are some that are born just 'harder to love' than others .... heck my poor cousin gave birth to one of those types of children ... he was a difficult babe from the get go and just a challenge all around to raise - a perpetually pissy personality that nothing was ever 'good enough' for him no matter how hard others tried to help him see that his life was GREAT his glass was always half empty and he saw himself as treated unfairly and so forth and he had a temper right from birth ... even as a grown man he is hard to spend too much time with he is so opinionated and difficult ... yet her other three younger children raised in that same home by the same parents are complete opposite personalities and temperaments and the type of people everyone wants to be around?

[Sarah]

Oh I agree - children are human beings with the human spectrum of personality and temperment traits and yes there are some that are born just 'harder to love' than others .... heck my poor cousin gave birth to one of those types of children ... he was a difficult babe from the get go and just a challenge all around to raise - a perpetually pissy personality that nothing was ever 'good enough' for him no matter how hard others tried to help him see that his life was GREAT his glass was always half empty and he saw himself as treated unfairly and so forth and he had a temper right from birth ... even as a grown man he is hard to spend too much time with he is so opinionated and difficult ... yet her other three younger children raised in that same home by the same parents are complete opposite personalities and temperaments and the type of people everyone wants to be around?

I am SO sad to say that my 6 years old son is like that! Cried twice already today. I don't even remember why. Ran in his room screaming that I was unfair, that I am the president of the meany club! Drains the energy out of me! I try not to let it get to me, but.......

And he is different than his older brother, who is such an easy child, and his younger sister, a joy on 2 legs!

Hard for a mommy's hearth because they are hard to love! Don't get me wrong, I love him, but he is hard to love!

[michellesmunchkins]

I am SO sad to say that my 6 years old son is like that! Cried twice already today. I don't even remember why. Ran in his room screaming that I was unfair, that I am the president of the meany club! Drains the energy out of me! I try not to let it get to me, but.......

And he is different than his older brother, who is such an easy child, and his younger sister, a joy on 2 legs!

Hard for a mommy's hearth because they are hard to love! Don't get me wrong, I love him, but he is hard to love!

Sarah I can totally relate to you. My almost 6 year old gives me a run for my money everyday. He is far more work than the 5 little ones put together!!!

[Sarah]

Sarah I can totally relate to you. My almost 6 year old gives me a run for my money everyday. He is far more work than the 5 little ones put together!!!

Thanks alot for saying this!

I feel so bad when I say this, but it is true, he is an energy drainer! And it is not because he moves too much. He is so charming, nice, intelligent, funny. But he is and has always been a crier! Life is unfair to him!

At some point (about a year ago), I had to go in his room at night, sit down on a chair and look at him sleep. I wanted to look at him serenely, and feel only my love for him instead of the annoyance I was feeling towards him all day long!

Hard to love!

I kind of hoped it would get better growing up...

Anyway, thanks!