I am confused!! please help..

[paz]

Hello Ladies,

Its been a while since my last post. hope everyone is well.
I have a full timer starting full day JK this coming September and mom is negotiating the rates for before and after school. On our initital interview told her I was able to provide B & A even do my kids attend another school near by and the school hours r different. We did not discussed rates because was not sure at that time and never provided the type of service.
She is currently paying $150 a week including holidays/vacation/days off everything as outlined on my daycare policy booklet. Mom has been great and appreciate the quality of my services.

My problem is how to deal with B&A school payment fees..the child stills keep the spot in my daycare and I cant fill up with another child but mom expect me to lower my fees 50%..drop off at 7am/provide breakfast/drive her to school along with the other DCC plus dropping my own kids to the bus stop..same goes picking up/given snack/parents pick up at 6pm sometimes later. Told her my fees are $125 based on 2 hours in the morning and 3 hours after school. She did not agreed and call around for prices even plasp and still try to negotiate with me..I feel discourage and dont know what to do anymore...thank you for your time reading this.:no:

[Bookworm]

I wouldn't negotiate my fees. If she does not want to pay your fees then maybe you should suggest that she find b&a care from a different provider. Just tell her that she is taking a full time spot up and that is your fee to cover the loss of income.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[paz]

thanks Bookworm..I told her $75 is not going to cover my services/effort put into this and her replied was so what rate are your proposing? why?

[Mamma_Mia]

wow she's a smart one huh?
Does she think the rate you gave her at the interview was a "tester"? lol That IS your rate!!

[Play and Learn]

Nope. Do you get to negotiate your fees with a dentist or a lawyer? NO.

I still don't understand how people like this try to negotiate fees. She obviously had experience with someone else, or knows of someone else who negotiates!

For my school-age rates, I charge $10/hour. Essentially, they'd be here only 2 hours max because of my hours and when the buses come. For P.D.Days, they have to pay $45. No negotiating. I don't care!

[Inspired by Reggio]

Sadly this is why most of us just choose NOT TO OFFER this service ... why would we want to take a 'cut in pay' for the privilege of serving them when we could just accept a full time child into care with less 'hassle'?

Honestly unless you have to walk back and forth to a school for your OWN children anyway and you want a play mate your kids age and so forth so that this is a PLUS for you the fact is that offering this service is a PITA from both a programming standpoint and a financial stand point ... you are rule by the clock of getting them to and from school in time so it messes up sleep times for younger children and you have to often 'wake' children in the afternoon to get there in time and than on top of that you have to go outside in nasty winter weather and push or pull your wee ones to drop off and pick up and so forth which is often no picnic cause people do not shovel their snow nicely and they are often icy and dangerous and than on top of all that you have school age ATTITUDE to contend with in that the kids often do not want to be a part of the program and do the Im bored, this sucks and other things that the younger ones than emulate!

Personally IF I were to EVER offer that kind of service I would not drop my fee at ALL cause a space is a space my program ... plus since I have no 'school age' kids myself for me I would rather have a younger kid here the full day and the freedom that entails than have to transport back and forth to school and be ruled by the 'clock' ... honestly I would want to charge EXTRA for that PITA experience ;)

[paz]

Yes Mamma_Mia she is a smart one and thinks I am the stupid one.
I have no tolerance for this type of situations.

[paz]

Reggio!!! you always have the right words for any situation, can not thank you enough for the time you take to be there for all of us.
It is a lot of work and on top all underpay.:confused:: confused:

[Judy Trickett]

.I feel discourage and dont know what to do anymore...thank you for your time reading this.:no:

What do you do? Um...hmmmm...let's see. How about a................... ..................NE XT! Seriously, the fee is the fee is the fee. If she doesn't want to pay it then she should seek out services specifically for B/A school care and then pay them the lower rate.

It drives me nuts that parents always want a deal. We are not some huge daycare that can take in 50 kids. ONE kid (in Ontario) is 20% of our income. So discounting those fees a HUGE hit to our paycheque. If a dcparent were put in the same position at their work place with a hit on their pay they, too, would take issue with it.

There are a lot of issues in daycare that I can roll my eyes and then let slide off my back (because to survive in this business you NEED to develop that ability or you will go insane with anger) but money is not something I will negotiate. Period. If you don't want to pay me the require fees as set out by ME then we have nothing to talk about. .......NEXT!

There are far too many daycare fish in the sea to work for less than full pay.

[paz]

Reggio! even do I dont owe her any explanation for my fees and just because she sent me a text quote: in the context of an employee employer relationship-if I am employed on a part-time basis I would not continue to receive my full time pay`.

how does she figure the child is part-time if is with me everyday and I am responsable for her school attendance. I want to respond back in a way she would understand this is not how it works in this bussiness..a spot is a spot. thanks

[paz]

Thanks Judy, my biggest problem is that I get emotionally attached to the kids and families and it makes it difficult for me But when it comes to money I put my foot down and the fun is over.
You are right about moving on if they are not willing to pay the asking fees.

[Inspired by Reggio]

.... in the context of an employee employer relationship-if I am employed on a part-time basis I would not continue to receive my full time pay`....

She sent you this as argument for paying you less?

I would reply that she is not an employer ~ she is purchasing a service!

If she buys a membership to a gym ~ the fee is based on a monthly 'rate' and she pays for that membership whether she goes 3 times a week or 3 times a day cause she is paying for the 'membership' in the gym. Is she wants a pay as you go membership at the gym it will actually cost her MORE that if she just bought a monthly membership which is why most people just opt for the monthly option.

If she is renting an apartment and she goes away on vacation for 2 weeks and is not 'using it' the landlord does not credit her two weeks of 'rent' because she is paying to ensure the space is secured for her upon her return and if she does NOT pay her rent she will return to find an eviction notice ;)

Bell Canada charges her the same basic rate for a landline whether she is home to use her phone are not to ensure the service is 'there for her when she needs it' .... if she talks one month for 60 hours and the next month drops down to 110 minutes Bell does not 'drop her rate' cause she is now part time phone user?

I could go on and on but you get my point ~ she is comparing apples and oranges here!

If my employer dropped my hours down to part time nope they are not obligate to continue to pay me full time wages ~ but the fact remains I am free to find another job to offset the lost income which might result in me no longer be available for the hours they were offering and termination of my agreement with that person ;) So while she is free to request a change from full time to part time hours YOU do not have to accept that ~ you will find someone else who is willing to attend full time and pay you the service you need.

As I said it is clients like HER that create the scarcity of 'school aged programming' .... seriously what is the 'incentive' to offer this service to people who do not even GET what they are asking someone to do ~ forgo income that a full time child would allow them?

Heck the school boards have the SPACE to offer these programs so there should not be any 'issue' with finding before and after school care but the fact is that most DO NOT offer it because parents are not willing to PAY ENOUGH for it to attract employees willing to work the wonky split shift where you basically end up working a measly 6 hours a day from 6am - 9am and 3pm - 6 pm but you are 'stuck' with 6 hours in the middle which is not enough time to go anywhere are do much once you factor in 'travel time' back and forth to work and so forth ~ it gets old fast and people constantly 'quit' and than the schools have issues with staffing so they just do not offer it!

The basically want to pay like $1-2 an hour and they even bitch about that over their $5 latte :roll:

[paz]

Thanks Reggio and yes it was part of the argument. I honestly hope they decide to go with another provider that can accomodate them. This is too much to handle and would rather give the opportunity to someone else in need for full time care. It will help me financially and mentally.
thanks again..

[Inspired by Reggio]

I empathize hon ~ I had a client who was with me 3 years and when their child entered JK it was on that wonky 10 day rotating schedule where they basically need access to a full time spot because they come M/W/F one week and T/Th the next and she wanted to keep her child here but admitted she was 'torn' with paying for a full time space when she only needed care 50% of the time ... but I did not budge because as much as I might have had a bond with the kid or liked the client I was not willing to forgo 50% of my income for what would have been a TWO YEAR COMMITMENT for both JK and SK school years ~ seriously over the course it would have been over $8000 in lost income ~ that is a lot of money for ME to forgo to trying to be 'fair' to them in not paying for a service they do not need and I know that 'eventually' I would start to resent that .... I honestly see BOTH sides of the coin ~ childcare is expensive for families with children who need it specially ones needing 'school age care' cause that is even harder to find and for us forgoing income unless it benefits the program goals is just not prudent business practice so we do not want to 'offer' those services unless there is some benefit to us!

Now fortunately we were able to find a solution where the spot was shared between two children who were on 'alternate' schedules and the one client who would have been 'leaving' for school got to stay as they had grandma willing to take them for PD days and so forth when I could not take BOTH of them but she did not really want him ALL the non school days .... BOTH clients signed and agreed to a contract that stated they knew that if either of them pulled out of the commitment mid school year the OTHER would be on the hook for the full fees of the full time spot OR they would have to forfeit the spot and it would go to someone full time instead .... so we found a win win for everyone because they were willing to 'take that risk' to keep the child here under those conditions and I was willing to have the spot split into two part timers because I did not really want to start a wee one full time cause I like having only two kids under the age of 2 ;)

If it is not going to work for YOU I would not wait for them to 'decide' cause they could leaving you having until the end of August ... I just tell her that 'X is the fee I am willing to offer this service for and I need you to commit to a decision on the enclosed new contract for 'school age' services - I will take failure to sign and return the following contract by Y date as intent to terminate our current arrangement as of August 31st and start preparations to fill the spot with a new full time client for September 4th. If for some reason you choose to terminate services earlier than August 31st please remember that X days of written notice is required in order to apply your security deposit'

Or something like that where YOU have made it clear the conditions for care to continue service are and the deadline to commit to that are or their 'space' will be filled with someone else because they technically are 'terminating' your current contract by wanting to change the hours of care servicing is being provided and the fee for service being expected for that service ?

[paz]

Good Morning Reggio and thank you again for the advice. I will prepare something in writing but not sure where to start. I normally give the parents a DC policy booklet but never had them signed anything except for the registration/transportation form.

I am curious where in Ontario are you located..sometimes I wish i can call up someone that speaks the same language":wave:

[Inspired by Reggio]

You do not have a contract you both sign as 'agreement' to the service being provided and fees being paid by them?

Contracts generally as a minimum outlines the 'key' financial end of things around the days and hours of care they are committing to, the regular fee for those days, fees during illness, vacation and any other closures, late fees if they arrive after committed to hours, late charge if they do not pay fees on time, any NSF fees if a payment bounces and finally procedures around and the notice policy or grounds for terminating the contract without notice for either party' ... some providers also have their program policies signed off on in the contract as well like nutrition, potty training, nap time and so forth. I have the financial contract signed and than the last paragraph states they have been given a handbook and we both agree to adhere to the program policies contained within it ~ saves me the paper of having to print that out cause I send it electronically ;)

[cfred]

Move on. Your fees are your fees. Fill the spot with someone else.

Sorry you had to deal with that....it's a bit demeaning.

[paz]

Reggio..The weekly fees is noted on top of the handbook. I feel that if you tell them there will be a contract to sign..scare them away!
I only take cash as a method of payment and its on Mondays. Also, provide receipts which I keep a copy for my records and a calendar which is used to keep track on payments/attendance/sick days/vacations..etc.

[Toregone]

Reggio..The weekly fees is noted on top of the handbook. I feel that if you tell them there will be a contract to sign..scare them away!
I only take cash as a method of payment and its on Mondays. Also, provide receipts which I keep a copy for my records and a calendar which is used to keep track on payments/attendance/sick days/vacations..etc.

Why would a contract scare them away? It is there for thier protection as much as it is yours. When I was working outside the home I once had a provider move out of town overnight with my full month of fees. I had no legal recourse as there was no contract. Seriously Thursday evening I picked my son up and Friday morning she was gone. This was the 4th of the month and fees were paid for the whole month. The next dayhome after that *I* insisted on a contract. Contracts are not there to screw or scare anyone, the are an integral part of a business arrangement. Get a contract! Please!

[Inspired by Reggio]

... I feel that if you tell them there will be a contract to sign..scare them away!

Ah see signed contracts are the norm here ~ for both licensed models and private home childcare models .... in our community new parents are told by the OEYC and other government 'checklists' provided at prenatal fairs and so forth to look for a contract when interviewing as it is a seen as a symbol of someone offering a professional business as often those who do not have one, at least HERE, tend to be those who are working illegally 'under the table' and do not want a paper trail and are likely not carrying insurance and so forth as a result.

Contracts are designed to protect both the provider AND the client by setting clear expectations for service and commitment around payment and the 'signing' ensures that at a later date no one can claim to have not been 'aware' of the conditions of enrollment or requirement of payment ~ each party has a signed copy of the 'agreement' for their protection during any conflict ... anyone who was not willing to make that written commitment to the relationship would not be welcomed into service here.

[paz]

Thanks for the suggestions. I see the importance of having a written commitment.
I am working on an agreement form and wonder if you ladies can suggest a good template. I am not sure how much information to include but would like it plain and simple.

[Inspired by Reggio]

This site has a few variations of contract options for a starting point

http://www.childcarelounge. com/printables/printable-forms.php

If you google 'childcare contracts' you will get lots of examples from simple to complex

[Toregone]

If you PM me your email address I can email you a copy of mine.