How do you feel about vaccinations?

[mamaof4]

Where I live this is a hot button issue. How do you feel about non vax'd or delayed/partially vax'd kids in your day home?

[Emilys4Guppies]

We have delayed vaccinations for our children until our first started school. When he started school our youngest was 2yo, so we got them all the DTAP at once. Then a month later we got our first and second the MMR. Now that I'm running a daycare AND have children in school I feel it's more important to get them those basic vaccinations because their exposure increases dramatically from just being home with only me.

So, we are taking our newest child, 6mo, in for his first vax this week. DTAP.

We only do the vaccinations that are legally required to attend school (yes, I know I can opt out)...no chicken pox or menjugate, or anything like that. DTAP and MMR.

I'm fine if parents don't want to vaccinate. I am educated on the symptoms of most of the diseases, as I needed to be as a non-vaxing parent. My own children are vaccinated, so that doesn't concern me. I know there are good reasons to vax and good reasons to delay...I'm fine with either choice in my dayhome.

[fruitloop]

I'm fine either way. My own kids are only vaccinated for the DTAP ones. I don't vaccinate for everything because I feel it's not necessary. All these "common" childhood illness are being over hyped and scaring parents into vaccinating when there is no need. For a lot of them, complications are a fairly low % and over vaccinating for every single illness out there is 1 of the reasons we have super bugs now...all because of over medicating.

[Tot-Time]

I too believe it is a parental choice to vaccine their child. I don't require it for my daycare, but I do ask what vaccines the child has or hasn't had so I am aware.

Both my girls have their vaccines but I was the type of parent that delayed them as long as I could.

[playfelt]

I leave vaccination up to the parent and the doctor. At the same time I do ask parents to let me know if there is anything different about which ones they are not giving or if they changing the schedule so I can be more aware of letting them know things their child might have come into contact with. The MMR is one that concerns me because of the danger to my other parents that might become pregnant should this child get Rubella. But at the same time I delayed many for my own kids based on the different schedules between provinces and the rationale for them. I always opted for the older age when possible giving the system longer to mature before injecting extra things to deal with so it was MMR at 15 m not 12m for instance. Most of the extra things either didn't exist when mine were little or were so new I didn't feel comfortable with them and obviously used to cost back then since they weren't part of the routine.

[mlc1982]

How important is it to you that all children are vaccinated before they start in your dayhome?

[playfelt]

I leave it up to the family and their doctor to determine the sequence and timing. I have not yet had to deal with anyone that was adamently against vaccination but if I did I would make it very clear on their contract that if for any reason there was even a hint of an outbreak in the city of a disease they were not immunized from that they would be excluded from care but that fees would still be due since it was the parent's choice to take the risk not mine. I am thinking here of things like measles and whooping cough. The same would apply to a child that had special needs and was not allowed immunizations such as an egg allergy. The same potential exclusion would apply at my discretion.

[Judy Trickett]

My own kids are not vaccinated. I don't really care if the kids in care are vaccinated or not. It's NOT my business and it has absolutely NO impact on my daycare. It wouldn't matter if a child was vaccinated or not - if a "serious" (and I use that term lightly) illness were to crop up I would have informed all parents anyway.

Lots of the kids I have in care are NOT vaccinated and to be honest, this is the healthiest bunch of kids I have EVER had.

[giraffe]

it doesnt matter to me if the children are vaccinated either. But i do like to know either way. for example, In the case of the chicken pox vaccine if it is going around our local playgroup I can then warn the parents.

[fruitloop]

It doesn't matter to me if they're vaccinated or not. My kids are only vaccinated for certain things. Vaccinations aren't 100% anyway.

[Dreamtree]

Very tough issue no?

[playfelt]

It sounds like the parents aren't against immunization totally but believe in waiting a bit longer. In some cases this is totally justified such as for a child that is born prematurely or with some complications at birth. Because of surgery as a baby my daughter had her first sets of needles that should have been at 2, 4, 6 months at 4, 7, 10 months. Others were spaced and the schedule changed accordingly. What the early one protect against is for the sake of the child and not for others. Things such as the chicken pox, MMR etc are the ones that could come into play for your own child. But also remember that infants have a pretty good immune system if you are healthy and their contact with the other children will be very limited at first anyways. When your child is about to be born might be a good time to bring up the subject again with the family and find out what kind of a timeline they have in mind. If at that point they are still saying no then you can reconsider. Also speak with your doctor instead of just scaring yourself to find out the dangers to the other children in care if there even is one. I do expect basic immunizations to be done by 12 months when the child starts care but am more lenient with other needles since they didnt' exist when my own kids were little and it isn't something that I am concerned about it. Personally I just keep the info to myself and the other parents do not know what any of the other children have or have not had. Just as they would go into any group situation there are no guarantees of anything. Many of the immunizations such as chickenpox do not prevent the disease but control it's severity. Talk with your doctor about what to expect and then insist on a note from the family's doctor with the anticipated modified schedule.

[Judy Trickett]

My own kids are not vaccinated. I have some kids in my care who are not vaccinated or delayed vaxers.

It is NONE of the other family's business who is and is NOT vaccinated. You can NOT tell them or ask them their opinion about another family's medical decisions or situation.

I would be freaking LIVID if my daycare provider told another family about my child's medical situation vaccines or otherwise. It is NONE of their damn business and it breaches confidentiality.

Unvaxed kids are NO MORE a risk than vaxed kids. In fact, go read up on vaccines. There are some vaccines that are LIVE and therefore shed. Shedding means that one of your vaxed dckids goes to get their shot and comes back, sneezes and then spreads the actual LIVE virus around your daycare room. Sorry, but that is something you should be FAR more concerned about than having some unvaxed, completely whole, toxin-free child running around.

Can you tell I am passionate about this subject?

[Dreamtree]

Hmmmm....
This is why I was reluctant to post a question about vaccinations--it is too controversial and people tend to respond vehemently based on which route they have chosen to go with---with their OWN children. YES, Judy I can tell you are passionate about the subject. And on that note I would like to clarify a few things. I did not disclose who the unvaxed child was. The mother of the unvaxed child asked me if the other parents were comfortable with this, I did not simply go and disclose this information to them.
Personally, I think that parents have to do whatever they feel is best for their children. However, I do feel that in running a business I need to set policies that I am comfortable with and that is what I am struggling to do. That said, I am reluctant to continue asking advice because the sensitivity of the issue, where instead of feeling advised I feel attacked.
Playfelt, thanks for the info. My only concern with waiting is that I don't want to change policies once she is settled because then she may feel that she enrolled under false info.

[Judy Trickett]

Hmmmm....
This is why I was reluctant to post a question about vaccinations--it is too controversial and people tend to respond vehemently based on which route they have chosen to go with---with their OWN children. YES, Judy I can tell you are passionate about the subject. And on that note I would like to clarify a few things. I did not disclose who the unvaxed child was. The mother of the unvaxed child asked me if the other parents were comfortable with this, I did not simply go and disclose this information to them.
Personally, I think that parents have to do whatever they feel is best for their children. However, I do feel that in running a business I need to set policies that I am comfortable with and that is what I am struggling to do. That said, I am reluctant to continue asking advice because the sensitivity of the issue, where instead of feeling advised I feel attacked.
Playfelt, thanks for the info. My only concern with waiting is that I don't want to change policies once she is settled because then she may feel that she enrolled under false info.


I don't feel I attacked you however I apologize if you feel that way.

I see vaccination just like any other medical thing. We simply can not ask, tell, or seek opinions of other parents in care about this. It's personal. It's no different than if a kid had any other condition under medical care etc.

Playing the devil's advocate here but we would ever go to an UNvaxed family and ask them if it's okay to accept a vaxed child?;)

[Dreamtree]

Judy,

I do agree with you on that front, I had never thought of the whole medical confidentiality of it, but it makes sense. I really don't know what to do at this point, because I have to walk the fine line between what I believe personally and what I believe best for me professionally, does that make sense?

[playfelt]

I think there are other issues at play here too though in the sense that the assumption these days would be that all children are vaccinated according to the accepted schedules so it isn't something that a parent would likely think to ask about but might be concerned if they found out it wasn't what they thought. I would contact local daycare centres or schools and ask for their policy. If you contact your local health unit they will have the rules for your area but even within that there will be a caveat that children whose parents oppose on personal or religious reasons or a child's medical condition doesn't allow for vaccination - ex I had a dayare child with a severe egg allergy so she had very few that she could get. It isnt' so much deciding about what the other parents are comfortable with it is about you. It sounds like you are concerned for your own children and for that reason you have the right to decide that you will or will not accept an unvaccinated child into care. Yes making your policy now and then turning the new family away based on that rule is what you should be doing if that will make you feel more comfortable. It would be wrong to start them into care and then change the policy.

[Judy Trickett]

Judy,

I do agree with you on that front, I had never thought of the whole medical confidentiality of it, but it makes sense. I really don't know what to do at this point, because I have to walk the fine line between what I believe personally and what I believe best for me professionally, does that make sense?

And that's all well and good. And you SHOULD do what works for YOU.

YOUR BUSINESS - YOUR RULES

It's just that YOU have to make that decision - not your dcfamilies. They don't get ANY say in how you run your business or whom you except into care. It has nothing to do with them.

I understand ethical stances. I do. There are lots of deal breakers for me with regard to daycare and who I would and would not offer service to. But those are mine and mine alone. KWIM?

You just need to make the decision and then role with it despite what others think or say.

[Dreamtree]

Playfelt,

Yes, I agree that this is more about what I am comfortable with than with other parents, that is what I am going to go forward with. Thank you.

[Dreamtree]

Thank you both for you advice, I feel that I can figure this all out now :)

[Dreamtree]

At least until I have a a different policy I need to review ;)

[playfelt]

That's why our contracts are on the computer - so we can easily edit them as needed. The more years you do daycare the more that goes in it - mostly with the I will not be taken advantage of again so the new rule will be... and it goes in the updated contract for the next family and works fine till as you say the next issue crops up. Good luck with your decision. I know it is hard to turn down a family when we have a space to fill but you have to do what is right for your family too.

[mom-in-alberta]

I wrote up a huge response to this yesterday, and it's gone!! Grrrrr..... :mad:
ANYway, the gist of it was;
I don't think it is any of the other parents business whether the rest of the children in your care have their own vaccinations or not, personally. I would also be upset if my provider had told others about my personal/medical choices (which I undertand that you didn't). They choose whether or not to vaccinate thier kids, and that is as far as it goes. When they are at playgroup or the park, or letting their child lick shopping cart handles (*shudder*), they have no possible way of knowing who has had the needles, and who hasn't.
If anyone has reason to be concerned then it's the parent of the un-vaccinated child who's little one is playing with all the kids who supposedly have a higher immunity to some of the typical germs and bugs. But that is the decision that they have made, and they have done so with some very valid reasons, I am sure.
Myself, I am still on the fence. I have read a lot about vaccines in recent time, and although I have 3 kids with up-to-date shots, I am not sure about our newest baby coming. I haven't decided yet whether she will be getting them.
It sounds like you are concerned more so about your own little one, which is understandable. I think the toddlers in your care need to be taught (regardless of who has their vaccinations, etc) to refrain from touching your baby anyway. When my newborn is around, the kids in d/c will be discouraged from kissing and hugging and loving on her. Partly a germ thing, but also because kids don't realize how strong they are when they are with a baby. Especially the littlest ones who may still think of the baby as a dolly/toy, and not my precious new baby, haha! It may seem kind of harsh, because of course they only mean well, but I think it's best/safest for everyone.
I am sorry that you felt attacked, because that is not what we are here for. But I know for sure that nobody meant for you to feel that way. We just all have very strong opinions on some stuff, right?
So to sum up: immunizations are a total non-issue for me, and it's totally the parents business. I would be more concerned with teaching the little ones to "look with their eyes not with their hands" and so on when playing with baby.
(Haha, guess it ended up being a long post again anyway!) :)

[Dreamtree]

very tough issue.

[Sarah]

Legally, I think you could be sued if you refused a child for non vaccination. Even if it's your business, you are not aloud to racism, sexism, or to select or not select someone based on nationality, sex, national or ethnic origin, race, religion, etc... Those are human rights, and it would of course need to be verified, but I think that refusing a person for that specific reason would be contrary to human rights

Maybe not put it as a requirement but ask the question during interview. Then you can refuse without anybody being able to proove the real reason.

(hope I made myself clear!!! ;) )

Sarah

[Dreamtree]

Hmmm... I am not sure that's true.

[Dreamtree]

I think people have to do what they are comfortable with on both ends.

[Sarah]

I am not sure about what I said. But personnally, just to be on the safe side, I would not put it anywhere in writing. I do not agree with your fear of non vaccinated kids, but it is solely your business, and you have made your decision according to your own knowledge and fears.

Sarah

[playfelt]

Rather than put things in negative terms about what you won't accept if your contract says that a child entering care must complete the following chart and show proof that the following immunizations are up to date then that covers the issue. Any parent that can't show that proof either because they lost it or never had them done just wouldn't be able to enrol in your daycare. You get what you want by wording it this way without including any specific exclusions.

[Sarah]

It is still excluding even if it is written positively.

If you say bring a birth certificate showing you were born in canada, that is still excluding based on nationality (just an exemple!)

[playfelt]

Because we do not get provincial or federal money we are not bound by the discrimination rules or at least that is what I have been given to understand. It is up to us to decide the perameters of our program as to the ages we will care for, the disabilities we feel comfortable with, the type of program we are going to offer, the foods, outings, religious celebrations, etc. It is then up to parents to decide if what we are offering meets their requirements. It is not our responsibility to change what we are offering to meet the needs of the parents. It is their responsibility to choose a different program. We are not discriminating; we are simply setting the standards of our program. Any parent is welcome to come and accept what I offer and how I offer it.

[Dreamtree]

Ditto-on playfelts post.

[Sarah]

"nobody in Canada can be forced to receive a vaccination. In some cases, nursery schools, daycares, and other schools which are privately owned and operated can demand vaccination for enrollment. But publically-funded schools and daycares cannot."

You are right! I still personnally think it's discrimination, but it is not against the law!

Sarah

[Dreamtree]

It is not possible to fulfill the needs of every family you interview. Having a home daycare means you work with families that feel that your daycare can meet their needs and vice versa.

[Judy Trickett]

Because we do not get provincial or federal money we are not bound by the discrimination rules or at least that is what I have been given to understand. It is up to us to decide the perameters of our program as to the ages we will care for, the disabilities we feel comfortable with, the type of program we are going to offer, the foods, outings, religious celebrations, etc. It is then up to parents to decide if what we are offering meets their requirements. It is not our responsibility to change what we are offering to meet the needs of the parents. It is their responsibility to choose a different program. We are not discriminating; we are simply setting the standards of our program. Any parent is welcome to come and accept what I offer and how I offer it.

I am anti-vaccination. I would NEVER vax my own kids.

BUT, I agree with your post.

I look at it this way.....what if a parent came to me wanting daycare for their special needs child?? I KNOW I would refuse them because, well, one, I am not a special needs provider, and two, I just DON'T want to care for a special needs child. I admit it - I just don't WANT to! And no, I don't mean to offend anyone by that statement.

So, just like non-vaxed kids, should we be FORCED to take on a kid who we do not feel comfortable caring for?? And then, on top of that should we feel BAD for that decision??

My answer is NO! We are SELF-employed. If we wanted to have someone constantly telling us what to do, when to work, how to work, how we will approach that work, what clients to deal with then we would go get a job outside the home where we also get FULL benefits, paid vacation, a pension plan and stock options.

But guess what? These parents are not my employers - therefore they get NO say in whom I accept into my care and the reasons I do or do not accept said child(ren). Now, if they want to suddenly pay my CPP portion, offer me WSIB, all those benefits as listed above like that paid vacation and full benefits then HELL, I'll care for anyone you want me to!

Enough said.

[Dreamtree]

Judy-well said! I completely agree. I do not think providers should be judged for creating a care environment that they are most comfortable with-when the care provider is comfortable-it means good quality of care.

[Sarah]

I am anti-vaccination. I would NEVER vax my own kids.

BUT, I agree with your post.

I look at it this way.....what if a parent came to me wanting daycare for their special needs child?? I KNOW I would refuse them because, well, one, I am not a special needs provider, and two, I just DON'T want to care for a special needs child. I admit it - I just don't WANT to! And no, I don't mean to offend anyone by that statement.

So, just like non-vaxed kids, should we be FORCED to take on a kid who we do not feel comfortable caring for?? And then, on top of that should we feel BAD for that decision??

I don't think you can compare a special needs caring to a non vaxed kid. One requires special knowledge and often more tasks, the other one you don't even need to know.

My answer is NO! We are SELF-employed. If we wanted to have someone constantly telling us what to do, when to work, how to work, how we will approach that work, what clients to deal with then we would go get a job outside the home where we also get FULL benefits, paid vacation, a pension plan and stock options.

But guess what? These parents are not my employers - therefore they get NO say in whom I accept into my care and the reasons I do or do not accept said child(ren). Now, if they want to suddenly pay my CPP portion, offer me WSIB, all those benefits as listed above like that paid vacation and full benefits then HELL, I'll care for anyone you want me to!

Enough said.

I am sorry, we are self employed yes, we are not bounded by any specific laws, as I found out, but we are still human beings. I am not talking about who is for or against vaccination, since this is "ones" business and surely not mine that is as a provider and as anothor human being. Our country, our province decided that they would not force anybody to get vaxed, so who are we to require our customers to be.

In conclusion, it is not because the law doesn't tell me it's wrong that it is not wrong to me. But it is truly understandable that self employed could manage their daycares as they wish...until people start complening about the discrimination that self employed people do and then a law for self employed vs discrimination will appear.

I'm sorry, you can see that discrimination is a hot topic for me! lol!!!

[Dreamtree]

I am sorry, we are self employed yes, we are not bounded by any specific laws, as I found out, but we are still human beings. I am not talking about who is for or against vaccination, since this is "ones" business and surely not mine that is as a provider and as anothor human being. Our country, our province decided that they would not force anybody to get vaxed, so who are we to require our customers to be.

In conclusion, it is not because the law doesn't tell me it's wrong that it is not wrong to me. But it is truly understandable that self employed could manage their daycares as they wish...until people start complening about the discrimination that self employed people do and then a law for self employed vs discrimination will appear.

I'm sorry, you can see that discrimination is a hot topic for me! lol!!!

I truly believe that parents should do whatever they believe is best for their child and family. It is true that no one should dictate how you care for YOUR OWN CHILD.

Just as I believe that no one should dictate who you let into your private home.

Whatever the issue, providers need to be able to decide which families they enrol in their daycare because it requires that these families regularly be in that providers HOME-therefore they must be completely comfortable with that family and their needs and expectations.

A providers home is NOT public property-or this would be a completely different topic.

Done and done.

[Judy Trickett]

I truly believe that parents should do whatever they believe is best for their child and family. It is true that no one should dictate how you care for YOUR OWN CHILD.

Just as I believe that no one should dictate who you let into your private home.

Whatever the issue, providers need to be able to decide which families they enrol in their daycare because it requires that these families regularly be in that providers HOME-therefore they must be completely comfortable with that family and their needs and expectations.

A providers home is NOT public property-or this would be a completely different topic.

Done and done.

Again, I agree.

Besides, I have to wonder....why would a parent even WANT their child in the care of someone who doesn't even want them there?? Fighting it and suing you for it isn't gonna make you WANT to care for that child any more. If anything, it will just make you resentful. I don't know about you, but I would never want my kids in the car of someone who was basically FORCED to take them on.

Hell, I know Medical Doctors who refuse to care for unvaxed kids. Sure, they might not be legally allowed to refuse service but they still DO and I can tell you they ARE still in business. Why should WE be any different???

[Dreamtree]

Again, I agree.

Besides, I have to wonder....why would a parent even WANT their child in the care of someone who doesn't even want them there?? Fighting it and suing you for it isn't gonna make you WANT to care for that child any more. If anything, it will just make you resentful. I don't know about you, but I would never want my kids in the car of someone who was basically FORCED to take them on.

I agree and have wondered the same thing-it doesn't make sense to me.

[Sarah]

To make a point! Not to have you care for their children.

Anyway, it is still discrimination against a medical condition.

And all along I just kept saying that I thought this discrimination would be protected by law, but no it is not. So there is not much reasons to keep arguing.

Sarah

[Dreamtree]

Having someone you are at odds with care for your children in order to make a point seems an odd move for any parent.

It is clear that there are differing opinions on this issue of "discrimination". And I would agree that the discussion is going in circles.

Enough said.

[mamaof4]

hi ladies, just popping my head in here to ask people to try be kind, there are some issues on which we may have to agree to disagree

[mom-in-alberta]

I should think that a parent turned away for this reason would pretty much move on to another provider. I know a number of non-vaxing parents, and if they are looking for childcare in a private facility they fully understand that their decision is not a universally accepted one.

[mammamia]

My own kids are not vaccinated. I don't really care if the kids in care are vaccinated or not. It's NOT my business and it has absolutely NO impact on my daycare. It wouldn't matter if a child was vaccinated or not - if a "serious" (and I use that term lightly) illness were to crop up I would have informed all parents anyway.

Lots of the kids I have in care are NOT vaccinated and to be honest, this is the healthiest bunch of kids I have EVER had.

Judy, I know exactly what you mean. I also do not vax my kids. I have 1 other dck that is unvax'd as well, whom has only ever missed ONE day for being ill in the 2yrs he's been in my care. ALL my vaccinated kids I've had have had multiple days off due to illness, on meds constantly, alwasy "sick" with something...so I am with you, if I could have ALL unvaccinated kids in my care I'd be in heaven-and richer as they wouldn't be taking so many days off! lol

[mammamia]

Parent's don't get to know who is unvax'd in schools, therefore no need to know who is or is not in my daycare.

[Secondtimearound]

I know this is an old post but I love vaccination topics !!! Lol I did not vac my dd (she's 5) and believe it is no ones business ! I do not ask and I do not tell !! Lol since once sitting with a group of mothers I answered honestly and there was like a parting of the sea around my child !!