ANOTHER Potty Training Question!

[KingstonMom]

SO my 27 month old son has been doing great with the potty training lately. ALL on his own will, he suddenly decided he was done with diapers, he's been doing great, I am just following his lead.
The odd accident on the floor when he is engrossed in doing something, okay fine, no problem. I remind him again that pee-pee goes in the potty blah blah blah.
HOWEVER, I think he has found another way to push my buttons.
Whenever he has to go to time out (for pushing his little sister down, stealing toys from her or whatever), he sits in front of the door to the bathroom, and beside the door to my bedroom, at the end of our hallway.
He will sit there and whine for 10 seconds or so, then-he's quiet! uh-oh!! 3 times now, i have discovered him peeing right there, 8 feet from the potty, right on the floor!!
3 times in 2 days, ALL during his time out.
I am mad, give him the speech, "pee-pee in the potty".
I do not want to ever punish him for pee on the floor, but I know he knows this, and is just trying to 'get back' at me.

Anybody have any similar tales or suggestions?
Thanks girls :)

[Starshine]

In my opinion, a child that age is not trying to 'get back at you'. My guess would be that by placing him so close to the bathroom for his timeout, it triggers/reminds him of peeing. Does he know he's allowed to leave his time out to use the potty--have you told him that is okay? My suggestion would be to change the time out spot so it's not beside the bathroom.

[Inspired by Reggio]

I tend to agree with Starshine that this would be my first thought as well ~ I know from the ADULT perspective of the world the coincidence of this behavior seems like SPITEFUL behavior however children's emotional development really is 'immature' at this age and not the complex range that WE have as adults to be 'spiteful'?

I firmly believe that 99% of children WANT to behave and make good choices and when they do not it is because they lack the skills or resources to make the choices we want ... aka lack of impulse control between the emotional impulse of wanting something and the brain sending the cognitive message ' hey no don't do that its against the rules' but the impulse wins out and they've done it before the brain message of NO gets to them and by that time the adult is already giving them trouble .... this is why you see some kids hit another child and than go SORRY right after before an adult even intervenes ~ they know it was wrong but the impulse was too quick for them restrain it back in. The other 1% behave negatively because their brain is not wired normally ~ these are your true sociopaths who take 'pleasure' in the negative reactions of others for whatever reason.

So knowing this is how the child's brain works at this age I would be more inclined to think that during the time out his 'emotions' are more around being upset, embarrassed, confused as to why he cannot control his body and maybe a little anger because he does not 'get' why he is in a time out cause he did not mean it and its not fair he got in trouble and so forth .... with all these emotions going on the last thing that is likely on a child's mind is paying attention is their 'bladder' signals ... aka he is likely peeing just because he is upset and his muscles are all tight due to his emotions being so strong and in an attempt to 'relax/calm himself' he relaxes too much and pees his pants ..... children really are too egocentric to be spiteful cause that would mean they are thinking of someone else besides themselves in that moment ;)

Besides I am a grown adult and I will tell you that when I am faced with conflict, having made a mistake that results in someone else being angry or upset with me ~ my stomach and intestines are the first thing affected by my emotional turmoil in that moment ... I generally want to run away from the conflict and go to the bathroom as a result ... difference being as an adult I have way more 'control' of my bodily functions from years of practice plus I know I CAN excuse myself and go if I need to where a child whose been told to 'sit and don't move' does not know this and is so stays 'put' .... and pee their pants :(

Another challenge for kids with 'emotional bladder' is we tend to think that them asking to go to the bathroom in the midst of conflict is manipulation to avoid the trouble and do not let them go anyway and than vicious cycle cause when they 'pee/poo' as a result the adult gets more angry cause their instinct is to think the spite thing .... I know this first hand cause I had my fair share of accidents as a kid when my dad was give me shit for something 'minor' that than resulted in a beating as a result of peeing on purpose to spite him ~ you'd think if I could have CONTROLLED not peeing myself in that first moment of the minor trouble I was in for 'forgetting to put something away' or 'taking something that was not my turn' that I would have held my pee to avoid the beating that followed from letting it go ;)

[kidlove]

He IS trying to "get back at you" and has a bladder of ammunition you let him go to time out with. I would send him to the toilet and pee pee, then go to time out. maybe of he pees in time out again, he should sit there twice as long? :)

[kidlove]

Just read everyone elses responses and still feel the same...you know your son as well as anyone, if he tends to have a little temper or gets angry when in trouble (seems a little spiteful) chances are...he IS upset because he is in trouble and will give you a run for your moola. Children at the age of 2 are VERY intelligent have the ability to manipulate to have their needs met at infancy so why couldnt they have the ability to act spiteful at 2? they may not fully understand what they are doing, thats why you have to nip in the bud QUICK. that way it doesnt form to habit, but its very possible he is working you, plus he has an older sis? right? kids with older siblings tend to be even more advanced, learning from them.....:blink:

[kidlove]

In response to inspired by reggio. on kids wanting to make the right choices but not having the skills or resources.
I believe as the Bible states: children are all born evil. sounds rough but is true, think about it...they are from the beginning of life naturally selfish & manipulating. They dont want to make the right choices, they dont know what they are until we show them and we cant show them unless we correct their inherantly "wrong way of thinking". It is up to us to teach them the proper ways of life...i.e. thinking of others, treating others kind and fare. having respect, using manners, showing love. If we sit back and wait for it to develope naturally as they grow and their brains develope they will bend and twist in their own direction...if we quide them proper, punish when needed, love appropriately and show them how to be we will end up with a well raised child who will ultimately become a terrific individual later in life. But you have to be very proactive in catching the little "wrong thinking" before it becomes Big wrong thinking!

[sunnydays]

I think actually that you and Reggio are probably more similar than different....except for the assumptions that the disipline strategies are based upon. I know that Reggio also believes in guiding children and teaching them the right way to behave and I am certian she is not sitting back and waiting for them to learn these things on their own. I think where you differ is in the underlying thought process behind it. I tend to agree more with Reggio that children "want" to please us and "want" to behave in a socially acceptable way and that is where we come in to help them understand what that "acceptable" way of behaving is so that they can begin to regulate their own behaviour rather than waiting for a punishment to given to them. I truly don't believe at all that children are born "evil" or "bad" in any way. In fact I believe we teach them how to behave in how we react to them...they cry we pick them up...we have taught them that crying is the way you get picked up...etc. I also don't believe that infants and toddlers "manipulate" us. They simply respond to the world as it responds to them. "If I don't want to eat my dinner, my mom will give me peanut butter and bread, so I'll wait for that because I like it better"....this is not manipulation, it is learned behaviour that has been taught through the parent's actions, not their words.


In response to inspired by reggio. on kids wanting to make the right choices but not having the skills or resources.
I believe as the Bible states: children are all born evil. sounds rough but is true, think about it...they are from the beginning of life naturally selfish & manipulating. They dont want to make the right choices, they dont know what they are until we show them and we cant show them unless we correct their inherantly "wrong way of thinking". It is up to us to teach them the proper ways of life...i.e. thinking of others, treating others kind and fare. having respect, using manners, showing love. If we sit back and wait for it to develope naturally as they grow and their brains develope they will bend and twist in their own direction...if we quide them proper, punish when needed, love appropriately and show them how to be we will end up with a well raised child who will ultimately become a terrific individual later in life. But you have to be very proactive in catching the little "wrong thinking" before it becomes Big wrong thinking!

[kidlove]

Thanks for that and I do agree. to an extent. the glory of raising kids is if you have the right intentions you can have the same outcome and that is where we are all the same (thats what matters most) knew my religious point of view may or may not be taken on positive note. Sorry if it offends thats just how I believe.....doesnt change the way I feel about children, just changes the way I see them in their beginning state, dont get me wrong I dont view them as little red devil like creatures who are born ugly and have to be shaped. lol just view them as what they are, not knowing and in need of guidance and teaching. Heres the way I see it, because they are born evil (please consider the biblical term and not the worldly term) if they are left on their own and not guided they will not naturally grow into a deccent person with time, (which I know you agree) however, if raised improper, they will only continue on their already started path and reach distruction at adulthood. thats all. think about it, it is REALLY easy to do wrong, even as adults we have to try and watch what we say, we have to think before we speak, we have to CONTROL our anger. If we didnt TRY, THINK and CONTROL (which our parents taught us) then we would do wrong(which is evil) therefor, no matter how you slice it.....ALL humans are naturally evil, they have to be taught or guided to do whats right. :)

[KingstonMom]

Great points everyone.
My son doesn't have an older sister, but a younger one, and no older friends so I don't believe he is learning from his peers.
My gut tells me he is doing this (peeing when in time-out) bacausse he CAN.
This is the same kid who brings a pail of sand from the sandbox, and when I tell him to put it back IN the sandbox, he dumps it on his feet with a smile on his face.
Last week, he grabbed his Nana's waterbottle, she asked him for it back, he looks at her, and dumps it on the ground. haha He's got a troublemaker personality that's for sure!
So just judging by his behaviour style, I dont't think he is doing this because his body simply can't handle the 'stress' of a time-out. He laughs in my face when I send him, and mostly dances around testing me while there. A handful of times, he actually cries but it hasnt been consistant with his peeing incidents.

Oh well. anyways, he hasnt done it since, but I like the idea of before him serving his time-out, that he sit on the potty first.

[playfelt]

Sounds more like sitting on a potty (get one that is more chair like) should be where time outs occur and then if he pees it goes where it is supposed to. Maybe sitting there in wet underwear for awhile won't feel so nice.

This is one of the reasons I am in no rush to get daycare kids out of pullups. I don't care when they move to underwear but I will not let a kid control our day and that is the power we give them when we take diapers away. It is a power they don't get at my house till they are mature enough to use it properly. A privilege that can be taken away.

[sunnydays]

Not sure that having him pee before time-out wuold be the best idea as putting that amount of time delay between whatever actions led to the time-out and the actual time-out may lead him to not even remember why is in time-out. Also, he may start acting out just for the extra attention involved in all that process. I think maybe just having him sit on a waterproof time-out mat would be better and then if he pees, don't say anything about it...give him zero attention for it and just give him dry clothes to change into...if he can do it himself all the better, otherwise help him without a word about it. I think often kids do these things (assuming he has control of his bladder and is doing it on purpose) because it gets a reaction and he can see it gets you riled up.

[kidlove]

Be careful though considering to put a potty where the time out is, may result in negative experience of potty time. Just take him to the potty first, then straight to time out, he is REALLY smart and if you dont catch it now, given his personality, your gonna have trouble later. What a stinker on all his little pranks he pulls, sounds the same as my son was...giving you a run for you money! (have to give him credit for having such a strong personality though, good quality for later in life!) :)