Insurance nightmare... looking for advice on insurance companies who provide coverage

[treeholm]

Hi,
I start my daycare September 4th. I registered my business name, have my number for receipts, and my business bank account. I have deposited the families' cheques in that account.
In the meantime, my insurance agent has been trying to get me coverage. She told me today that I can't open a daycare in a business name unless I have an ECE certificate, and can only use my own name. My home policy will cover me for up to 5 children at $30 per day. I'm charging $35 a day and have signed contracts for that amount.

I'm sort of freaking out here, because I was careful to do everything in a very business-like manner. Do I have to go back to the parents now and tell them cheques have to be made out to me personally instead of my business, which will now have to close a month after it began? Do any of you use a business name for your daycare and have your insurance company cover you? Or do you all have ECE certificates? I'm so frustrated. No one has mentioned that you can't get coverage for running a home daycare unless you just use your own name... I set up a business account in order to issue receipts using my business number instead of my social insurance number, and because my daughter and I will be sharing the income. If the income all goes into my name, I'm just not sure how to avoid declaring the portion of the income that goes to her...

I would love to be able to give my insurance agent the name of an insurance company that will insure a home daycare that actually uses a business name rather that one's personal name. Or, if you do use your own name, how to avoid having to put your social insurance number on the receipt? I won't give out my social insurance number to anyone in order to avoid identity theft.

Thanks,
Diane

[treeholm]

HI there,
You could be right about the $30 a year per child. I read it as they would ALLOW me to charge $30 per day per child, but it could be that they are charging ME $30 per child... not sure if it is annual or monthly, I'll double check. It still doesn't get me around the issue of not giving out my SIN. The reason I started a business was to A) provide a business-like professionalism, and B) not release my SIN.
Thanks for the post, I will clarify the $30 per child thing with my agent.
Diane

[michellesmunchkins]

I have state farm insurance. Covers me for 5 kids and they don't care what I charge. I pay $15 extra a month to add the daycare kiddos. Try them, they are fantastic to work with. Had no issues whatsoever!

[michellesmunchkins]

sorry should also add that i didn't register under a business name though just my own name

[treeholm]

Thanks Michelle! I guess the other issue is how to handle employees if one is not permitted to operate under a business name... I can't believe this is so confusing, and I have an MBA for goodness' sake!

[Inspired by Reggio]

Oh hon take a deep breath .... your agent is confusing the rules ... you are not opening up a licensed daycare which is the type of daycare that you need your ECE and so forth and comes with all sorts of 'regulations' out the wazoo ~ you are just operating a private home based childcare under a registered business name which gives you a 'license' .... the two licenses are completely different entities and one has nothing to do with the other and will not impact your ability to get insurance ;)

Go back to your agent and tell her you do not want nor need insurance in your business name ~ you just want a private home childcare ryder on your current home owners insurance policy .... and I would not pay any more than an additional $30/year/child for it on top of whatever your regular home owners insurance is because that is the average cost in Ontario for a ryder ... it should cover for care up to 5 children and ideally cover up to $10,000 - $15,000 in equipment and supply replacement that is all you need ;)

If you want to keep the business account and have parents pay you using that name you are perfectly fine to do so ~ I would be trying to get a GOOD DEAL on service charges though cause banks assume business = profit and charge obscene service charges on bank accounts with that label :(

My business name is registered as well ~ however I only use it for advertizing purposes .... I do not have a 'business account' at the bank cause I am CHEAP I just have a personal account in my name that I use for self employment purposes with a no fee bank ~ my clients make any payment out to my 'legal name' for banking purposes and the receipts I give them have both my business name / logo and BIN as well as underneath is my 'legal name' and contact info and so forth so that their returned cheques match the 'legal name' on the receipt .... my insurance for both my home childcare ryder and my vehicle are under my own legal name not the businesses .... and at one point I WAS with a licensed agency and all these practices were deemed 'legal' according to the agency I was with ... they knew I had a registered 'business name' I advertized by however any payment made to me was also in my regular ole legal name not the business name as well as my proof of insurance for them and so forth ;)

Like you the only reason I have my business name is for the reasons you stated ~ to protect my SIN and because for advertizing purposes it looks more professional on a website to have a 'daycare name' than to have a site that says JANE DOE as the URL and tagline because the minute you say 'Jane's Jazzy Home Childcare' it is no longer your full legal name so you need to register anyway and well who wants to put their first and last name out there in their business name ;)

Hope that helps

[Inspired by Reggio]

Thanks Michelle! I guess the other issue is how to handle employees if one is not permitted to operate under a business name... I can't believe this is so confusing, and I have an MBA for goodness' sake!

Are you planning on having employees? This concept in home childcare has always eluded me cause unless you are taking a 'mat leave' and just wanting to hire someone to cover so you do not loose clients it baffles me how people can budget to pay and employee and stay within the 5 child limit ~ cause at the end of the year after 'normal' expenses I barely make minimum wage for myself if I had to PAY someone at least minimum wage out of what was left I would be volunteering to do this?

Employees could make your insurance premium a whole other ball of wax though because than you are needing 'additional' coverage for employee wage replacement and so forth if injured on the job verses just client liability.

[kidlove]

couldnt you go with both? : <your name-daycare name> that way you can still name your daycare and be insured personally?

[Inspired by Reggio]

couldnt you go with both? : <your name-daycare name> that way you can still name your daycare and be insured personally?

Exactly ~ I have friends who have other self employed home based businesses .... my friend has a haird salon and organic spa in their home and they have a 'business ryder' on their home insurance just like we do only for that category and when you use her services or buy something from the spa you make cheques payable to her 'own name' not the business because she too did not open a 'business category account' at the bank because she did not want the fees associated with that ... she too just uses the registered business name for advertizing purposes and well they have to register as well to remit GST and so forth but my point is they do a combination of 'both' because they are self employed.

[treeholm]

You are all wonderful, thanks for the input. My daughter and I are planning to run this venture together once she is finished her mat leave in the fall of 2013 (she is expecting her second child in early December this year). We'll both be drawing income. It's a way for her to stay home with her children until her youngest is in school. We realize we can still only have a maximum of 5 children plus her own, so the income will not be very high for either of us, but it's a way to do this together as a win/win. I get to be with my own grandchildren this way, and we both have some income from the other children. We love children, and felt that doing it this way would eliminate the potential downside of not having any adult contact during the day. It's also a win/win for parents, because if either of us is sick, the other person can cover for the day by themselves.

I guess Christine will just have to bill me as a sub-contractor rather than be an employee. It's certainly not going to be enough income for two people if this were our only income, that is so true. I have a scrapbooking studio that runs weekend retreats, and I still teach one course per semester at the local university, where I am a semi-retired professor. My daughter is an environmental engineer, who may do some one-off projects after her maternity leave, and is doing a certificate in small business bookkeeping/accounting. Between our variety of businesses/professions, we hope to make a decent living LOL. Yes, it would be easier just to have one full-time job, but they do not exist in my community. I would have to commute 4 hours a day to the GTA. My daughter could return to full-time work here, but doesn't want to do that while she has small children.

And, the thought of not being there for my grandchildren would make me very sad. To be honest, I do not like being an empty nester at all, and the idea of filling my nest during the day with lively children is very appealing. Knowing that my evenings are very quiet will get me through the chaos during the day LOL I have such admiration for those of you who do this during the day and then still have your own children at night. I loved raising my own children, and I feel that helping other families raise their children is the most important work there is. I don't even want to go back into corporate work where making a profit is the only thing that matters. I have a personal philosophical problem with it. Not criticizing anyone else for doing that work, it's just a very personal thing. Children are our future, and most families cannot afford to have only one income, so providing quality care for the children of working parents/single parents is the kind of work that has life meaning for me. I should post that on my kitchen wall for those days when I'm pulling my hair out, as I'm sure there will be those days.

Thank you again for the feedback. I'll go ahead and get the rider on my home insurance.
Diane

[playfelt]

The other problem that could be coming up is that there are very few companies that will do the house rider so unless your insurance is with State Farm or Cooperators and I think someone has mentioned Pilot before then that may be where your issues are. Other companies do not insure home daycare and have turned you over to their business department. Allstate will only insure for three.

Yes getting clarification of the fee is important. Not sure the insurance agency can tell you how much you can charge your clients that doesn't seem like any of their business. And I am sure the rate quoted is not per day although for a larger daycare centre maybe it is $6 day per child would be $30 a day. But that is not the kind of insurance you are looking for.

[treeholm]

Thanks playfelt. I think the $30 was per YEAR per child, but I've emailed her to clarify.

[Monday 2 Friday Mama]

Hi there, sorry to hear that you're having some adventures - very stressful I'm sure. =) When I first started my home daycare I was covered by my already existing homeowners insurance policy. My insurance company was Allstate. I notified them that I would be running a daycare from my home, and I opted to increase my liability coverage from 1 million to 2 million. It was an annual increase of 10 dollars - negligable and it bought me major peace of mind. =) Once my business grew and I wanted to care for more children (under Allstate I was only allowed to care for three daycare babies) I had to find a new provider. I ultimately wound up choosing State Farm, and my annual premiums are (roughly) 600 dollars more per year than I would pay if I was just a regular homeowner. So I really need to make sure that I always have four, full time kids - otherwise it's tough to justify the extra expense. Neither Allstate or State Farm asked what I was billing parents for childcare - and I'm not sure why you're being asked that question. Did anyone explain why they need to know this information ? Hope this post helps somewhat, and good luck with everything ! =)

[Inspired by Reggio]

Dianne - whose home is this going to be operating out of??? Cause you might want to clarify with Ministry Education regarding your daughter being able to not count her own children if she is basically working in your program - cause techically it would be YOUR own children who do not count as it is your premise and you???

I know peers who've hired someone to cover mat leave and during the leave since she was not always present cause she was with the new babie her old child had to be counted "in ratio" as one of the 5 because for the filling in provider it was not "her child".

The rules are stupid are this 5 plus you own - cause the above scenario is a prime example of what difference does it make cause that program runs "fine" when it is the mother provider with 7 children - 5 daycare plus her two own but hiring help means she can only have 5 total in attendance cause the hired provider has to count all the kids :rolleyes:

[treeholm]

Hi Inspired,
It will be operating out of my home. My granddaughter and the new baby do not count as my own, unfortunately, so they need to be counted as part of my 5 children UNLESS my daughter is on-site. She can be here with her own children, she just can't leave them with me. I have reserved a spot for my granddaughter until the spring. After that, I have 3 days a week with an extra spot (so only 4 children those days) so that I can take either my granddaughter or the baby for some time those days if my daughter cannot be here. I was very careful to check that out since my prime motivation is to be with my grandchildren, and I want to be sure there is a spot for at least one of them on days my daughter may have appointments. Most days she will be here once she is on mat leave, and if she stays home with her newborn, I do have a spot for my granddaughter until the baby is 4 months old. If I am ill and she needs to run the daycare on her own, I would still be here (just stuck in my bedroom moaning and whining and drinking chicken soup....)
I do appreciate the input though!!!! I have gained such wisdom from this forum, not sure how to express my thanks except to become an awesome provider and turn around and advise the newbies once I'm more experienced!

[Inspired by Reggio]

Sounds awesome Diane ~ basically your business plan is to have 4 'daycare kids' plus a grandchild in there ... than if your daughter is there helping your daughter will have 4 daycare children plus her own 2 kids ... and if she is not there she will always have '1' child with her for you ... sounds like a fair plan for sure and a win win for everyone to have some income coming in on top of your additional businesses to tag team each other off on.

I did some googling just for my own curiosity on and all I could find about providers offering care at someone 'elses' premise was info about play dates on both the ASKY and the CPRRN website and both just stated that unregulated providers can meet at each others houses and do not have to count their own as long as the total 'daycare children' on the private premise do not exceed 5 ... again another illogical rule cause it is ok to meet at a 'public park' with 10 daycare children and two adults plus however many of their 'own' might be in tow ... but it is not in your fenced in backyard where you have access to a land line, toilet, running water and other emergency help if need be?

[treeholm]

Thanks Inspired. You are confirming what I found. Two daycare providers can meet at each other's homes as long as the total is no more than 5 children plus their own. I've had to come to terms with the fact that my beloved granddaughter does not count as my own LOL I agree the whole system is illogical... I can meet any number of dcp's and children at the local park, but in my own yard, which is safe and has a bathroom nearby, nope.... crazy.
I realize from a pure income perspective, what we are doing is a bit strange, but the income is not the first priority for us. It's definitely second, and we want to make a profit, but this was a way for both of us to be with my grandkids, and each other. We are best friends, and love doing things together, and I think having two adults for the children will enable us to do some really fun things. Who knows, maybe my daughter will open her own daycare down the road and we'll both do this as a career, but for now, with her having two little ones of her own, she wants a part-time income that enables her to be with her own children, and so do I (want to be with her own children LOL).
Diane

[Inspired by Reggio]

Yup ~ great thing about home childcare is that it can meet a wide range of priorities for sure and allow for a wide range of budget options ~ not everyone wants nor needs the income of FIVE children and routinely offers a program with 'low ratios' which is a selling feature to many clients!

Plus your daughter is 'saving' having to pay out $300 - 400 a week in childcare for 2 children which in reality is 'income in itself' in the guise of savings for their household ;)

[Mawna]

Hi Ladies,
Does your insurance say 5 kids including your own? Cause my insurance is up for renewal and they contacted me saying that the policy is 5 kids including my own child( which is very very stupid cause if something happens I wont be suing myself right? So why would my child be in the total number of children when rules say that I can have 5 children inmy care plus my own? Do any of you know of any i surance that does 5 kids excluding your own child?