Strange form of discipline

[apples and bananas]

I'm bringing a concern to you for advise. I need to know what other providers would do in this situation.

A child has told me that their mother and step father discipline her the following way.

First they do push ups, then sit ups, then they have to stand on a chair holding books in both hands out to their sides for 3 minutes. This is the punishment if they talk back etc. Just generally behaving badly.

This isn't one of my daycare kids, it's a friends child. I know kids can create stories, but it was confirmed on a seperate occasion with an older child in the house.

Any thoughts on if this is appropriate punishment or not? If your daycare child told you this happens in their house, what would you do?

[Inspired by Reggio]

While it is not my cup of tea for behaviour management I would personally think whatever works for them at least they are doing 'something' to correct inappropriate behavior in this day in age where so many parents are so busy trying to be 'friends' with a child verses actually raising them to learn behaviour has consequences!

Is the family military in nature or have some family history of someone in the Military? IME this is how the military trains soldiers to perform ~ you screw up you are giving physical exercise to help the message sink in for the next time theory being by using your whole self as part of the punishment as you reflect on better choices it helps the brain to remember the message better for the next time ... the physical exertion and discomfort caused by the labor of it being associated with the message 'you do not do XYZ' and on some basic brain development levels it does make sense that this would be effective ... and IMO it is much less evasive approach than turning them over your knew and physically spanking them which argues the same 'results' but is one person causing the physical pain upon another verses 'self regulating' the pain verses exercising?

[Starshine]

I don't agree with any sort of physical punishment, and that is what this is. Forcing a child to exert themselves physically can be dangerous. Remember the little girl who died in the winter after being forced to run? Yes, that's more extreme than what you're describing, but I think it's dangerous regardless.

Depending on how close you are to these people, I would likely talk to them about it and let them know how you feel about it.

[Dreamalittledream]

while it is not my cup of tea for behaviour management i would personally think whatever works for them at least they are doing 'something' to correct inappropriate behavior in this day in age where so many parents are so busy trying to be 'friends' with a child verses actually raising them to learn behaviour has consequences!


exactly!!!!!!

[Inspired by Reggio]

I don't agree with any sort of physical punishment, and that is what this is. ....

I agree with you whole hardheartedly ~ IME there are better more effective ways to help a person choose to make positive choices in life ... for years I was able to guide and manage a classroom of children without ever using corporal punishment successfully and motivate them to want to make positive choices because it was the right thing to do for themselves and others not out of fear of punishment by myself if they did not .... however we live in a society where 'punishment' is still the go to method to manage behavior .... from our judicial system right on down to parenthood so sadly we are going to keep being exposed to discipline methods such as this one which seems the lesser of two evils so to speak.

[gcj]

My biggest fear with this type of discipline would be turning the child off exercise, which would be a shame, but if they're doing it in a controlled manner, I don't think they are harming the child. It's probably even more effective and less cruel than yelling....and let's be honest, we've all lost our tempers and yelled!
Are they of a different nationality? I used to train competitively in my sport and it sounds a little Russian....
Overall, it doesn't concern me, personally. Maybe I ought to try it with my 7 year old son :p

[fruitloop]

You know, everyone has their own way of disciplining their children. This imo this is not abusive. Hell, they have to do this in the military. Yes, these are children and not adults but what you described is not harmful to the child. Maybe the parents are from a military background. You can't be constantly sticking your nose in how people raise their kids because everyone is different. This is the second or third thread about "tattling" on a parents style of discipline in less than a week. Seriously...I know it's our job/nature to protect children from harm but come on! These parents are not beating their children, they are PARENTING their children and everyone parents differently. Just because we work with children everyday does not give us a licence to interfere in how other people parent their children. Yes, people who don't parent their children at all and would rather be their "friend" effect us in our business but it doesn't give us a right to interfere in how they're doing it. If they want to create a spoiled little brat, let them. If a parent wants to create a child with respect, morals, manners, etc. ...let them! We are always so critical towards other parents and I personally am trying to change that in myself because quite frankly...it does nothing to improve anything.

As long as the children aren't TRUELY being abused, it's none of our business how they are being disciplined.


Edited to add:

I apologise if I offended anyone but I'm a no BS no sugar coating kind of person and reading so many posts on this lately is starting to irritate me. A lot of people spank their children, myself included, when they feel it is deemed necessary, some people make their kids stand in a corner, some people decide to "talk it out" with their kids, some people make them hold books in the air for 3 minutes and do calisthenics (which is good for everyone to do actually)...everyone is different!

Why is no one jumping to "talk to the parent" who does nothing to correct a bad behaviour? Couldn't that be considered a form of abuse too...to not teach your child how to be a descent human being with morals, respect, manners, compassion, etc.?

[Crayola kiddies]

I think it's a great idea ..... And I don't think it would turn kids off exercise at all in fact it would have he opposite effect ... As an adult they would probably turn to exercise as a form of problem solving .... You know ... Have a problem ... Go for a run ....
As long as it's not excessive I think its fine but you really didn't say how old the kids were and howmany push ups are they doing 10 or 100 ....

[Play and Learn]

Hey, if it works for them, then why the hell not?! I don't have a problem, because the child isn't being abused.

I'd just let it be. It's definitely not my place to tell them how to discipline.

[apples and bananas]

All interesting points of view. I'm not sure how I fell about it, that's why I posted... looking for different opinions.

I'm not sure if this corrects behaviour or if it just puts a negative twist on healthy excersize. Are they going to grow up, go to the gym and not want to do certain things because it reminds them of...

The relation to the military is interesting, however, these are little girls under the age of 10... not Men that have chosen to be there.

I aggree that how people discipline their children is their business... it's a form of discipline I've never heard of before though... so I just wasn't sure.

Something that I wouldn't do for sure!

[lainey76]

a&b , My girlfriend is Asian and this was one of her punishment as a child right through until she graduated high school ..when she back talked she had a to stand on a chair in the living room pulling her ears out like a monkey and her parents would invite friends and family over and she would have to explain what she did for the punishment.

[apples and bananas]

a&b , My girlfriend is Asian and this was one of her punishment as a child right through until she graduated high school ..when she back talked she had a to stand on a chair in the living room pulling her ears out like a monkey and her parents would invite friends and family over and she would have to explain what she did for the punishment.

Oh my goodness! I don't even know what to say to this one. I could never treat my kids like this. Wow!

[lainey76]

Yup !! We were at a moms night out last month and we were talking about punishments ....she said it's the norm in her parents circle .

[kidlove]

agree with reggio and dreamalittledream: on the fact that "at least these parents are recognizing "negative" behavior and responding to it" I personally wouldn't choose this form....but thats only my opinion. (I give a verbal warning followed in "severe circumstances" with a quick slap on the lips or a spanking for disrespect and talking back) Don't expect everyone to agree with my choice of punishment either...that's just what works for ME! To each his own when raising their own child, my only concern is when the punishment crosses the line from "punishment to abuse" that can happen with any form of punishment, "soap in mouth:(" "books on head" "spanking" "push-ups"...parents HAVE TO use their best judgement and know when "enough is enough", hopefully they do!

[kidlove]

Hope that "monkey ear" thing is not typical for asian culture? if so...shame on them, thats demeaning to a child...could you imagine what that would do to a childs "self-worth"? so glad I wasn't born into any other culture. :) My parents had a chinese exchange student, she painted a very sad picture of the value parents have of their children! so sad!

[lainey76]

Yeah when we lived in the U.K our punishments were alot worse than I have ever seen in Canada.... we got the belt/strap when we were naughty.... none of the time out stuff lol and since then I swore I would never spank my kids .

[kidlove]

I had a "angry Dad", we were "spanked" which I DO AGREE with. However...my Dad would "spank" or "yell" when he was angry...I swore I would NEVER do that! I spank my kids but ONLY after sending then to their room and thinking twice. I NEVER punish my kids in anger! EVER! That is what I learned from my Dad, you must lead by example, you are not teaching your child anything if you are acting "out of control". I am always composed when handling any kind of "bad behavior" with my children, from "talking it out" to "spanking" you must always "keep composed"........and NEVER degrade your child, I feel things that "degrade" a child are like any kind of "public" punishment. I would NEVER spank my child in front of others, making them stand on a chair in front of "invited" guests? that to me is so degrading. My kids know full well that I am "the boss" and to be respected (as all adults should by children) however....to a healthy level, punushment publicly , whatever form....IMO seems wrong! :)

[bright sparks]

Yeah when we lived in the U.K our punishments were alot worse than I have ever seen in Canada.... we got the belt/strap when we were naughty.... none of the time out stuff lol and since then I swore I would never spank my kids .

Discipline is always a touchy subject as people tend to have strong opinions on it.Here's mine :)

Also being raised myself in the UK and now raising my own children in Canada I know that it is completely different. Physical punishment was the norm and really has just made me grow up to hate my father. I've turned into a decent kind human being with morals because my dad hit me. It’s not because that taught me to behave but taught me not to grow up to be that kind of parent. Ultimately in my opinion your kids grow up to be like you or hate you for those kinds of negative things.

I want to back A&B up by saying thanks for at least reaching out for opinions and feedback about the situation. Too many people are passive to this kind of behaviour always saying its no one else’s business which quite frankly is nonsense. Obviously you can’t go interfering in other people’s business but I think it’s a good idea to be observant and keep track of things that are going on as you could ultimately save a life one day. There is a fine line between punishment/discipline and abuse/neglect. That child doesn’t have the voice or the power to control the situation or stand up for themselves. Isn’t there a chance that treating a child in this manner increases the chance of repercussions as a result of resentment??? I completely get that it is a parents perogative to decide what form of discipline works for them but as a caregiver playing a role in a child’s upbringing, (obviously this is a friends child so a little different), it is important to look out for the child’s best interest. I may piss some people off by saying this but there are many parents out there who are not making the correct choices for their children and that has nothing to do with my opinions on physical or non-physical discipline. The form of punishment a&b is describing is degrading and humiliating and quite honestly IMO and from my experience is far more damaging long term to the child than the occasional tap on the bottom or wrists for misbehaving. Not to say that I am perfect or have the answers to how to correctly discipline a child but in short our children and all children mirror their parents. It’s how they learn. So show your child negative and degrading behaviour often enough and they will turn into that too. More power to the parents who have more effective disciplining techniques which refrain from making a child feel little self-worth and who break the cycle of abusive parenting. I commend you.

These are my opinions based on work experience and extensive personal experience. I would imagine anyone with a Social Work education would have a similar stance on this subject.

[Sandbox Sally]

Exercise as punishment wouldn't happen in my home, but I can think of worse things. Maybe the exercise is to get the energy all spent up so that the misbehaviour doesn't continue? Just an idea...my son often acts less appropriate when he needs to burn off some energy.

Public shaming, ie monkey ears is abusive and disgusting in my opinion. :crying:

I also don't see how you can spank your child without degrading them?? That seems like an oxymoron to me.

[kidlove]

Does it relate? The fact that "spanking" is so frowned on in our society and children are more disrespectful than ever before? Just a thought. Less and less parents believe in spanking or any other form of corporal punishment. More and more kids are "talking back to elders" "screaming for what they want" "disrespecting teachers and figures of authority" "treating their parents and DAYCARE providers as if they work for the child" "throwing fits". What is a parent supposed to do when their child behaves this way? Is the parents expected to sit down and have a equal to equal "talk" with the child regarding the choice they are making? Sometimes that may work, but I have a feeling that child will walk away from the "talk" saying "SUCKER!" and do it again. A spanking (for the right reasons) leaves a much more lasting memory for a child than that of a "talk". In my experience, if I really need to....I will ask a "spanked" child who is misbehaving, "would you like me to call mommy or daddy?" their response is immediately "no" and then they behave. If I ask the same question to a "not spanked" child, they say "yes". The spanked child has a healthy fear of what it means to suffer consequences, when the "un spanked" child knows, he or she "runs" mom and dad and wants them to come to save them from me, who they can't "run"! Just interesting to see the difference in behavior of children who are and are not disciplined with an occasional spank.

[Sandbox Sally]

Since we're throwing out "anecdata":

My kids aren't spanked. I am regularly complimented on their social graces and healthy respect for others. I wasn't spanked. I was a very well behaved child as well, and ended up being a productive member of society. :)

My kids respect me without a fear of being spanked. It's no miracle. I respect them, listen to them, teach them appropriate behaviour, and have consequences when said behaviour is not met. Yeah, I talk to them. It works.

FWIW, none of my family members or friends spank. None of them have rude children.

Can a kid be spanked and turn out mannerly? For sure! But the end result can be the same WITHOUT hitting. Disrespectful, rude and delinquent children are a result of bad parenting, not a result of lack of physical punishments. Just saying.

ETA: My kids NEVER ever ever threw fits. My oldest DD went through a 2 or 3 week phase where she had tantrums, but this was after a cross country move and a new baby sister.

[kidlove]

Total Respect and understanding alpha. Do what works for you, not saying not spanking doesnt work, just saying....in my experiences it most times doesnt seem to help. I totally respect the fact that you can wonderfully raise your kids with out a spank.....my whole "arguement" is just to defend my personal opinion. thats all, def not to "disrespect" yours. :) thats just what works for us, it just seems in todays opinion, parents who "spank" tend to get a negative wrap, as if "spanking" is an improper form of child rearing, when my defense is to prove the contrary. Spank or no spank you can raise a well rounded and respectful member of society with a healthy self esteem. Just too bad parents choose to abuse (too much) or neglect (not enough) and it gives well rounded parents like you and I a bad wrap on either end of the spectrum. to each his own, as long as the love a proper growth of the child is at the forefront. :)

[playfelt]

Just as there are different learning styles in children there is a need for different disciplining techniques and unfortunately the current wisdom lumps them all in the same vein at the same time as they promote variety in schooling methods. The two are so linked together and any educator should know that that it really makes me shudder. I can see which parents use necessary force here too by how well the children follow the rules of authority without testing every limit.

At the same time there are some children that respond to a simple glare of disaproval and others that need something far more tangible to get compliance. We see this when they are toddlers and those are the children that are showing up in the "studies" against spanking saying oh this child was spanked as a child and therefore they are delinquints today - what they forget to study is what that child was like as an infant/toddler in their degree of defiance and uncompromising character.

[kidlove]

I agree playfelt: My son is a prime example of that kid who pushes the limits...just a "talk" will not get through to him, he needs "tangible" conseqences as he is much more of a "hard-headed" child than my daughter. She just needs to know I "feel disappointed" and she is crushed and wants to change. Either way, both my kids are great! Have respect and for the most part a very well behaved children but.....I had to take two very different paths upon that arrival. Dif kids dif techniques.

[bright sparks]

I also don't see how you can spank your child without degrading them?? That seems like an oxymoron to me.

Not sure if this was meant as a response to my comment, but I imagine it was. I wasn't insinuating that spanking wasn't degrading just that the form of discipline a&b was discribing is degrading. Any kind of discipline that belittles a person is degrading.

[kidlove]

bright sparks: may have had a little to do with my "pro-spank" post. :)

[bright sparks]

Does it relate? The fact that "spanking" is so frowned on in our society and children are more disrespectful than ever before? Just a thought. Less and less parents believe in spanking or any other form of corporal punishment. More and more kids are "talking back to elders" "screaming for what they want" "disrespecting teachers and figures of authority" "treating their parents and DAYCARE providers as if they work for the child" "throwing fits". What is a parent supposed to do when their child behaves this way? Is the parents expected to sit down and have a equal to equal "talk" with the child regarding the choice they are making? Sometimes that may work, but I have a feeling that child will walk away from the "talk" saying "SUCKER!" and do it again. A spanking (for the right reasons) leaves a much more lasting memory for a child than that of a "talk". In my experience, if I really need to....I will ask a "spanked" child who is misbehaving, "would you like me to call mommy or daddy?" their response is immediately "no" and then they behave. If I ask the same question to a "not spanked" child, they say "yes". The spanked child has a healthy fear of what it means to suffer consequences, when the "un spanked" child knows, he or she "runs" mom and dad and wants them to come to save them from me, who they can't "run"! Just interesting to see the difference in behavior of children who are and are not disciplined with an occasional spank.

I think you make a great point and it definitely makes me go '' Ahhhh", but I wonder if the kids who are disrespectful and rude etc etc, are just modelling behaviours from parents who havent spanked but instead have screamed and shouted at them because they dont know what else to do. You can definitley do some serious damaged verbally to a child. I would be more inclined to think that was the reason for them being such disrespectful people, versus that if they had been spanked they'd have better manners and better adults when they had grown up. Just a thought.

[bright sparks]

Since we're throwing out "anecdata":

My kids aren't spanked. I am regularly complimented on their social graces and healthy respect for others. I wasn't spanked. I was a very well behaved child as well, and ended up being a productive member of society. :)

My kids respect me without a fear of being spanked. It's no miracle. I respect them, listen to them, teach them appropriate behaviour, and have consequences when said behaviour is not met. Yeah, I talk to them. It works.

FWIW, none of my family members or friends spank. None of them have rude children.

Can a kid be spanked and turn out mannerly? For sure! But the end result can be the same WITHOUT hitting. Disrespectful, rude and delinquent children are a result of bad parenting, not a result of lack of physical punishments. Just saying.

ETA: My kids NEVER ever ever threw fits. My oldest DD went through a 2 or 3 week phase where she had tantrums, but this was after a cross country move and a new baby sister.

Amen to that. I to, am extremely vocal parent with my children and believe that I have great kids as a result of it. Not to say there arent times when they go through changes and have frustrations but I have taught them from a young age and continue to have, open lines of communication to find productive ways of dealing with things that come up. My children know that they are heard and respected so they do not need to be dramatic about things. That being said, they know that I am consistant and what I say goes but not because of fear, but because I explain to them the whys of things and if they want to question what I say I welcome it as thats how they will learn and also they will learn from that how to respect others because I have shown them respect. I know the common thing to say to kids is that they have to earn respect, well I believe that they have to be taught it by being shown equal respect by the adults in their life. It made me smile reading your post Alphagetti, Thanks :)

[kidlove]

I just love the stories or "first hand witness" of a "young adult" responding to a teacher with a comment like, "what are you gonna do? you can't touch me". and then threaten a call to the police, or a story of a girl that says to her step-Dad "you cant touch me, I'll call child protective services"........aaaahhh! there was a day when teachers could grab a kid and put a little fear in them, now? you can't. I have some day care kids, I swear have the same point of view, and although, for the "most point" I do think that punishment should fall on the parent only...what if the parent is the reason the kid is so screwed up? So many times I have walked through the stores and you see that one kid yelling in his Mothers face "I hate you"...can't help but think not only does that kid need to get straightened out but...if the Mom isn't going to do anything, I wish I could step in and do something myself. I love the old black and white movies, back in the day when the stranger would threaten to give the nasty kid a "whippin" for disrespecting or beating up the poor kid. Where did that world go? now everything is equal rights, and no violence (as if that form of discipline has been warped into such a horrid and violent act) a spanking in the woodshed years ago was the "norm" I don't think it raised a "beaten" society, I actually feel the opposite, it taught men to be men, and children to respect. It raised a more responsible society rather than one that looks for a crutch or handout or someone to feel sorry for the "abuse" they recieved.
Nothing at all wrong with choosing to raise your kids with out the use of physical punishment, but...what is so wrong with raising your kids with "old fashioned" technique and values. No choice is better or worse, both can work just as effective...just depends what the child needs.

[Sandbox Sally]

Nothing at all wrong with choosing to raise your kids with out the use of physical punishment, but...what is so wrong with raising your kids with "old fashioned" technique and values. No choice is better or worse, both can work just as effective...just depends what the child needs.

What's wrong with it? Is that rhetorical? Because I can answer that if you'd like. Let me know. ;)

[fruitloop]

I'm sorry, but I think kids were definitely better behaved back in the day...before all these "new wave, be your kid's friend" techniques came out. So, in short, I agree with this statement from kidlove...


Where did that world go? now everything is equal rights, and no violence (as if that form of discipline has been warped into such a horrid and violent act) a spanking in the woodshed years ago was the "norm" I don't think it raised a "beaten" society, I actually feel the opposite, it taught men to be men, and children to respect. It raised a more responsible society rather than one that looks for a crutch or handout or someone to feel sorry for the "abuse" they recieved.
Nothing at all wrong with choosing to raise your kids with out the use of physical punishment, but...what is so wrong with raising your kids with "old fashioned" technique and values. No choice is better or worse, both can work just as effective...just depends what the child needs.

I'm not saying that you NEED to beat your child to make them "submit" or "teach them a lesson" but sometimes there are actions that need immediate consequences. Parents need to say no to their kids. If they cry...all well, let them cry. They need to be taught that they can't always have everything their way or at that very moment. I notice a lot of parents that don't want their child to cry ever or feel disappointment. WTH...ya because they'll NEVER feel that as an adult. They need to experience these things so they know how to cope with them. Point is, and I think we're trying to make the same point, that parents need to step up and PARENT their child/ren using whatever form of discipline is right for them. If you are ok with spankings, then fine, if you and your kids do great with talking or t/o or whatever...awesome!

[kidlove]

God Bless you Fruitloop, you get me!!!!!! This world is getting so "New Age" all the time. Good to here we can keep it alive for a little longer. :) Either view I dont disagree, just nice to have a small group still in this boat. Welcome aboard..grab an ore!! it can get rocky.:laugh:

[kidlove]

No need for your answer alpha, sure I can imagine myself. ;)

[Sandbox Sally]

I'm sorry, but I think kids were definitely better behaved back in the day...before all these "new wave, be your kid's friend" techniques came out. So, in short, I agree with this statement from kidlove...



I'm not saying that you NEED to beat your child to make them "submit" or "teach them a lesson" but sometimes there are actions that need immediate consequences. Parents need to say no to their kids. If they cry...all well, let them cry. They need to be taught that they can't always have everything their way or at that very moment. I notice a lot of parents that don't want their child to cry ever or feel disappointment. WTH...ya because they'll NEVER feel that as an adult. They need to experience these things so they know how to cope with them. Point is, and I think we're trying to make the same point, that parents need to step up and PARENT their child/ren using whatever form of discipline is right for them. If you are ok with spankings, then fine, if you and your kids do great with talking or t/o or whatever...awesome!

I completely agree that this newest generation of children (ie, our children) has brought forth a ridiculous amount of coddled, disrespectful citizens. What I do not understand is how that equates with a lack of corporal punishment. I think there are still plenty of spankers out there. If debate boards and mainstream parenting boards are any good indicator, I'd say that spankers are still in the majority.

I am neither new agey or "friends" with my kids. I mean, I am friends with them to a degree, sure, as in we have fun hanging out together, and they trust me to be able to come to me with concerns and problems, but they know that I am their parent first and foremost, and they completely respect that (for the mostpart, of course - after all, they ARE kids, and they still mess up).

I put forth to spankers the idea that consequences do not have to come in the form of physical punishment. My own children, as well as the children of ALL of my friends and family, have very clear and very heavy consequences for misbehaviour. The consequences just don't include spanking. I can't buy into the idea that the only way to raise a productive, respectful citizen is to spank them. I just can't. I've seen too many success stories from families who don't spank to think that this is a reasonable conclusion to draw.

I couldn't agree with you more about the new age crap, the "time in" set, the ZERO consequences parenting. It's not effective. It's become more common to just not parent your kids. People are too busy, too lazy, too stupid...who knows? However, I think this has little to do with sparing the rod.

GOOD parenting can absolutely be accomplished without spanking. Non spankers, just as spankers, have to invest the time. Might I suggest that it's not a lack of spanking that's spewing forth these little heathens, rather, a lack of parenting.

[kidlove]

But...you have to understand from a "spanking parents" point of view......spanking is part of parenting. So, my idea of "not parenting" does actually include not spanking. Just as your idea or not parenting includes your form of punishment. To each his own really, I'm sure you and I and all parents alike are on the same side ultimately when it comes to the topic of "poorly behaved children" however, no matter how you slice it, (although both ways of parenting we are able to raise the same type children) our approaches will evermore be very different. :) Kuddos to you for being a terrific Mom...no joking! really, there aren't many out there it seems. ;)

[Sandbox Sally]

But...you have to understand from a "spanking parents" point of view......spanking is part of parenting. So, my idea of "not parenting" does actually include not spanking. Just as your idea or not parenting includes your form of punishment. To each his own really, I'm sure you and I and all parents alike are on the same side ultimately when it comes to the topic of "poorly behaved children" however, no matter how you slice it, (although both ways of parenting we are able to raise the same type children) our approaches will evermore be very different. :) Kuddos to you for being a terrific Mom...no joking! really, there aren't many out there it seems. ;)

You say above that your idea of not parenting includes not spanking. You can't think I am both not parenting (by not spanking), and that I'm a terrific mom.

[Inspired by Reggio]

To spank or not to spank is a VERY personal journey ~ however I will admit that I do love listening to debates about why people think it 'works' and why others think it is not acceptable or damaging to children's psyche ~ I learn so much about other peoples logic of their decisions!

IMO the discussion and reflection on all our practices in life are imperative to the personal journey that is life ... from spanking to health and nutrition, our spirituality, education, relationships and so forth ~ asking ourselves WHY and reflecting on our past and where we want to be in our future is all part of us perfecting this journey called life ;)

I often wonder back in history how similar debates unfolded in communities, town halls, dinner tables around the country ... debates of 'changing views on social acceptableness' .... back when we decided to free the slaves and the debates on would that be good or bad and how they must have sounded ~ it seems so 'normal' for us to see this practice as wrong now but I cannot help but wonder how did one argue that it was 'acceptable' practice back than cause it must have seemed normal for them that this was an OK thing to practice?

Or back when women stood up and demanded to be seen as 'people' under the law verse property and demanded the right to vote, to work outside the home, to hold office and so forth and those who fought against that change because of fear that allowing it would result in chaos to their way of life ... the number of women who were beaten and ostracized for daring to stand up against the 'norm' and demand more for themselves and yet here we are in 2012 we cannot imagine not having the rights and freedoms we have or living in a society where we were allowed to be treated with so little dignity.

Or over the past 40 years the repeated revisiting of discussions over the use of corporal punishment in various scenarios as society started reflecting on what worked or did not work or what was 'right or wrong' or socially acceptable or not to do to another human being so to speak as we created the laws that govern us as a society ... thinking back to not too long ago in our history when it was common practice in our society to use spanking as discipline not just in our homes but in our schools, in our churches, in our prisons, in our mental hospitals, in places of employment .... this was something legal to do and ANY adult could do it to someone they had power/authority over teaching / educating / supervising because it was seen as the most effective way to 'correct behavior' .... but now a days if a teacher spanked your child even the 'spankers' amongst us would likely be livid because we do not see that as acceptable any longer.

So the debates and shifts in thinking that took a long time coming to stop those practices as people clung to what they 'knew' to be effective regardless of if it was 'best' ... I am sure we can all agree that we could not honestly imagine that it would be ok if you did not starch your spouses work shirts properly that he could turn you over his knee and give you 5 spanks with his hand or a hairbrush or whatever or that if you were working in an office setting and forgot to refill the photocopier that it was acceptable for the boss to spank you in an effort to help you learn to perform properly .... for us this now seems ludicrous logic to think that this was 'needed' in order to control women cause we know we are fully capable of learning through consistent expectations and TIME to master skills but our ancestors this was common practice for women to be expected to disciplined in this manner .... just like in many households we still hold true to this logic for children that they 'need' this physical punishment to help them 'get it' so to speak.

I think we can agree that as women we've come a long way since those days in Canada where we as women were not seen as individuals with rights but rather the property first of our parents and than of our spouse, where it was legal to use corporal punishment on us to 'teach' us how to properly run a house, to not talk back to our spouse and so forth basically for us to be continually treated as we treat children well into adulthood because we were not seen to be able to grow in any other way .... IMO we still just have a long way to come in how we view the children in our society and what rights and protections they should have in comparison of other members of society .... we are all human after all and there should be some rights we all share regardless of age!

So IMO just as our ancestors in eras past had a long way to come on their personal journey of how and what was 'best' the reality is there was no 'right or wrong' back them they were all doing the best they could with the resources and science and other factors they had available to them at the time and as they grew and their knowledge evolved so did their practice and while initially some resisted eventually the new way become the 'norm' for all .... and so we are still growing and evolving in regards to how we treat ourselves, our children, the animals, the earth and so forth .... these are all just other 'lessons' we are all still learning together as human beings ;)

Look around the world to see all the varied levels of 'self discovery' and 'social accountability' to each other that you can see ... we are so vastly on different paths still and sometimes we find it hard to imagine how other countries cannot be in the same places as we are in some areas ~ like the treatment of women in Middle Eastern countries and how we as a North American often 'judge' them for being so barbaric in their treatment of women and children and heck we even have gone to war to prevent that treatment ... but the reality is that it is not so very different from how we were treated back in the 1700, 1800 and early 1900's and yet we already find it hard to imagine that ever being tolerated or condoned in our society and cannot imagine how they do not 'see' the wrong in how they treat women and so forth but yet for THEM they are steadfast in their logic as to why they do what they do and they are willing to fight to maintain their way of life despite our evidence that there is a 'better way' to treat women?

And these are the reasons why discussions around 'why' are so important because each time we have them more light gets shed on truly reflecting on our practices and we move along our journey.

In my life there were so many times I 'resisted' change because I was comfortable with the way things were and they worked for me so why change .... for example I resisted the computer for ages because I felt that handwritten was more personal but eventually the more discussions I had with others over the benefits the less afraid I become of the change and now I do everything on the computer ;)

[kidlove]

You took my words out of "my Meaning" I meant MY idea as in (kidloves idea) of "not parenting" is not spanking, because Kidloves beliefs are dif than yours and Kidlove feels that HER proper parenting INCLUDES spanking. but I added that I (kidlove) also believe, it IS possible to raise a proper and well behaved child, without spanking. Just not MY (kidloves) choice of parenting. You ARE a good parent, I can tell by the way you talk about your children and their raising...as I AM a good parent with the way I talk about my children and their raising, however...we choose to do it differently. That's All!!!! :) :) :) :) :)

[Sandbox Sally]

I am sure we can all agree that we could not honestly imagine that it would be ok if you did not starch your spouses work shirts properly that he could turn you over his knee and give you 5 spanks with his hand or a hairbrush or whatever or that if you were working in an office setting and forgot to refill the photocopier that it was acceptable for the boss to spank you in an effort to help you learn to perform properly

This is an excellent analogy. I wish I could figure out how to multi quote, because I am in love with this entire post. Very eloquently said, Reggio. :thumbsup:

[kidlove]

Thanks for your view Reggio. Was nice (and long) to have another opinion. You have some great points, respect girlfriend. :) Still doesn't change my mind, I will continue to spank (if neccesary) and hope my kids will raise their kids the same and on and on for generations to come. I respect and honor my Grandparents and Parents ways of life and will continue those "ways" passing on to my kids who will pass to theres. I understand your view point and respect it...it's you right. However the more we try to analyze and fix the world IMO the more "screwed up" it will be. "Just leave well enough alone", that's my motto. God gave me the intelligence to do what I do, I didn't have to further my education to become a good Mom, just have to rely on the good Lord and I have all the know how I need. Some call it "street smarts" some call it "common sense" what ever you call it, thats all you need to do a good job at being a Mom and a Good Wife. No womens lib, no reading this book or that, just down right common sense. and a good role model....my momma was awsome. (so was my grammy) :D:D

[kidlove]

I don't know alpha, the only thing I got out of that, was missing my hubby......wish he wore white shirts so I could leave out the starch on purpose.....I always welcome a few "spanks" keeps things "alive" if you know what I mean! :laugh::laugh::laugh :
TOO "DEEP" LADIES!!!!! Lets have a little fun!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sandbox Sally]

My "common sense" tells me that hitting other people, whether it be under the guise of discipline or not is wrong. :D I don't think violence should be a part of any family's tradition.

Sometimes, fixing things requires some deeper thought than, "just leave well enough alone". Sometimes, when you know better, you do better.

[kidlove]

I'm not here to argue "I am right" and whoever doesn't agree is "wrong"......truly Alpha, just here to state my case, while giving respect to all others......same or indifferent. Don't get wound too tight! Shrug it off. :) ok...on your mark, get set, GO!!!!!

[Sandbox Sally]

Sure ok. But you are arguing your point. LOL And so am I...nothing wrong with that. But I guess, when you've had enough, we stop. :D Smiley faces all around. :D :D

[kidlove]

:) To me that's the glory of the world we live in, so many points of view, so many ways of doing things and the FREEDOM to speak our opinion! and for the most part...the freedom to live how we want! I know we see eye to eye on some things alpha....just not this!!!! ("what-evs" isn't that what all the kids say now a days?)

[Mamma_Mia]

Disrespectful, rude and delinquent children are a result of bad parenting, not a result of lack of physical punishments. Just saying.

I agree with this statement!

(I do care)....but I DON'T CARE how you parent your child...just PARENT them!!! Don't be their friends, set rules and expetations and follow through with 'threats'. If all parents actually did their jobs I don't see the issues. IMO

[Inspired by Reggio]

Yes diversity is the spice of life in many things including opinions .... life is like a box of chocolates and you never know what your gonna get .... I personally think a box of chocolates would not nearly be as enticing if they were all exactly the same flavor .... specially if they were all those sweet truffle things and there were no chewy toffees that make you pause and chew and savor them!

I love me a good debate ~ I grew up having to debate and often being forced to suddenly debate the 'other persons side' as the right course of action ... its what allowed me to survive so long in centre care defending and debating practice that was not really authentically me but what was viewed at the time as 'best practice' for my profession ... of the joys!

[kidlove]

can tell you LOVE to debate Reggio....and you too Alpha. :) Not sure if I like the debate (no probly not) I just defend myself and "what I think is right"....:) so glad I live in a free country!!! :)

[kidlove]

I have a BIG MOUTH and will definitely "speak my mind". gets me in trouble sometimes. :woot:

[Mamma_Mia]

*Not trying to toot my own horn*

I've been told that my dd is very well behaved and knows when I mean business because I'm a no nonsense parent. That I am...when I say no...it's no. I don't care if you turn blue from screaming. No. and if it goes on too long I will tell you to STOP or else...

I came from a spanking 'world' and to ME it's one I agree with. Now I have cousins who were never spanked and always listened to their parents and did what's right. So I know that BOTH ways of parenting work!!

I've also had friends "run their mouths" on how I wll never hit my child....well their child is on a time out every 5min and just for the second time kicked his little sister in the head. Oh yeah....'my freind' is doing a GREAT job there! Do I think it has to do with them not-spanking their child? NO...it's about them not knowing how to parent their child!

I think it all boils down to teaching your child right from wrong. Manners and everything else weather or not they (the child) likes it. However you do it....parent the child. There is a saying I quite like "If you've never once said 'I hate you' then I'm not doing my job!".



BTW-
We can't force our opinions on why spanking is good or bad. It's an opinion....once it is said - that is it. No need to come back and "prove" your thoughts again and again and again..... :p we "got" it.

[fruitloop]

I am sure we can all agree that we could not honestly imagine that it would be ok if you did not starch your spouses work shirts properly that he could turn you over his knee and give you 5 spanks with his hand or a hairbrush or whatever or that if you were working in an office setting and forgot to refill the photocopier that it was acceptable for the boss to spank you in an effort to help you learn to perform properly



This is an excellent analogy. I wish I could figure out how to multi quote, because I am in love with this entire post. Very eloquently said, Reggio. :thumbsup:

This in NOT something I would spank for though. Something that I would deem neccessary for a spanking for example would be...my child running out into the street for the 50th time and no talking/reasoning is getting through to them. I then...on the 51st time would smack their butt. Not doing something properly (like the examples in Reggio's post) in my mind do not warrant a spanking. I reserve spanking as a last resort thing when NOTHING else is getting through to them in a serious situation where harm could come to the child. I would never spank because my child didn't put something away properly, or clean their room right, etc.

A parent who chooses not to spank but USES other forms of discipline THAT WORK are just as good of a parent as someone, like me, who chooses to spank when it is deemed neccessary. Just different parenting styles, that's all. :)