Finger sucking and non-talking 3.5 year old ( venting!!!)

[mlle.coccinelle]

I have 3.5 year old little girl that is driving me NUTS!
She probably says a total of 10 words... and they are not clear I had to ask her mom what they meant. She also suck on ALL of her fingers, to the point where her nails are curved in.

Her mom told me that she was not allowed to suck on her fingers anymore( obviously) but every morning when she comes in, she has 1-2 or sometime 3 fingers in her mouth and her mom is not saying anything. She is always covered in drool because of that.... ( nop, she is 3.5 and still does not know how to swallow her drool!)

and when i asked her mom if she helps her practice how to talk like a ''big girl'' she just said that she has 4 other kids to take care of... and she does not have time to do that.??? Seriously lady?

I'm starting to think that she has a learning disability... from the way she plays, hold a crayon, talks, drink even eat! Should I talk to the mother about it or let her figure it out? I Seriously don't know how to bring the subject to the table...!

[BrightEyes]

This is a hard one.... The mother doesn't seem to "care" about the finger sucking and lack of speech so I am wondering if she would even listen to you if you were to mention the possability of something bigger going on.

Assuming she brings her child to the doctors regularly you would think the dr would notice. Definitely when she starts school it will be observed, noted and discussed with her parents but it is best to catch these things early.

I am not sure if you should bring it up or not... IME when I have brought something like this to a parent's attention they have always been in denial and ignored it. It's when the child attends school and a "professional" addresses the issue that they start to take it seriously.

I am interested in seeing what others have to say about it.

[crafty]

Difficult situation indeed. Unless you are looking in terminating these clients because you are not able to provide the care she needs and meet the parents goals for her I think I would just bring it up casualy. Like 'Have you noticed how she holds her crayon still ?, I think she may have some difficulty there'' Hopefully they will catch on and seek help.

I've had 2 sibblings (temporarly thank goodness) the 4 year old boy was still putting everything in his mouth, had NO words, was still drooling, not close to beeing potty trained and not eating with ustensils. Same for his 2 yo sister. If they had sent them to me in daycare in the hopes that they would start talking and eating and all before starting shcool I would have raised my concerns and told them I could simply not meet their goals as I felt the needed 'special' type of care. But in this case I new it was temporary and they were seeking medical help.

Difficult for sure ... Good luck !

[gcj]

Usually, I find this difficult...mention it or not...how, when etc. But in this case I think that you must! They all develop differently and there are different spectrums of normal, but none of what you described is anywhere near normal. Go to her with information...not just giving your opinion. Do your research. Print things up on development, stages, variations of normal to show her that she needs help. Also have a contact number to give her and follow up. Someone has to help this girl.....don't make her wait until she starts school...

[bright sparks]

Having cared for a little boy for 2 years who displayed multiple signs of an LD, I researched many things and spoke to lots of professionals on how to handle his parents. They directed me towards an observation sheet for developmental milestones. It is a district developmental screening test developed in Nippissing but used across many regions including Halton that I know for sure. I actually got the info from Halton Resource Centre. It is a yes or no sheet. You do not give your opinion on anything you are just making an observation over a period of time. The tests are all based around the typical age when your child goes for a Dr's check up and also more frequently when they are younger. The screen tests state that if any are answered no, then a visit to the family doctor to discuss this specific milestone is advisable. I do this for all children and parents are super happy to have such specific developmetal information given to them to take along to their childrens dr's appointments. This way I am not singling any one child out, and most Dr's appreciate this as if you spend more time with the child than the parent then they may not be in a position to observe certain things.

As far as a quick fix for the fingers in mouth, why not buy an ark grabber. Just a few dollars and are supposed to be very helpful. The fingers in mouth is more than likely the cause of the drooling and the lack of speach. her tongue and jaw are busy chewing instead of developing her oral skills.

for the ark grabber http://shoponline.pfot.com/otmomfaves1.html
for the developmental screening tool www.ndds.ca

Hope this helps but otherwise the best advice I can give you is document everything as you see it NO OPINIONS and make sure you take time for yourself. It can be very taxing dealing with a child with special needs regardless where on the spectrum they fall and especially as you are likely giving this more attention than her busy mother.

Send me a private message if you need any additional info.

[Momof4]

That's a very sad story. Thank goodness this little girl has you mlle.c. Right now I have a 2 year old boy who came to me with his soother 24/7 in July and I weaned him off it immediately and the Dad talked the Mom into doing the same within a couple of months. This boy learned to talk with the soother in his mouth and now he can't form all the letters and I can't understand him half the time.

He's also very oral with toys and his fingers and I am a tyrant for saying 'out of your mouth' all day every day and he's getting a little better every week. I can't stand all that drool on his hands then he touches all the toys and it grosses me out completely. I mean, it's very unsanitary for people even to touch their faces! That's how we get germs, when they are close to your mouth and nose, gross!

Anyway, don't stress over it and just do what you can do while she is at daycare. You have to know your audience. Sometimes parents listen to us and sometimes we're hitting our heads on a brick wall. But it isn't your responsibility, you're not the Mom, so just do your best and call it a day.

[Inspired by Reggio]

I am with Bright Sparks ... I use developmental screening checklists with ALL my crew regularly as part of the program and they are made aware at the interiew stage that way no client feels singled out when I do it ... I do it for here, they do it for at home and we discuss the overlaps and differences to set goals ... this way it is non threatening and so forth - this has generally always worked for me to at least get them to bring it up to a family Dr now I have been undermined by a dumb Dr a time or two only to have it take until the school got involved but at least my ass was covered as a professional that I had tried with y due diligence and within scope of my training and so forth to get the kid help as early as possible ... we are not the parent and can only advocate and educate so much the rest is up to parent too!!

[bright sparks]

But it isn't your responsibility, you're not the Mom, so just do your best and call it a day.

I have to say that I do believe we have a certain responsibility to the child. While we aren't the parent, as a caregiver, we have a duty to the child to pass on our observations to the parent's. What they do with that information is entirely down to them but then we have played our role to is fullest by passing this info on. If we don't say anything, then we aren't helping but potentially making it worse IMO. I imagine that a lot of parents who lash out at people saying something is up with their child, or implying there is, are being given opinions and feelings versus just supplying them with the fact. They do not want to hear from an unqualified person what they think is wrong with their child. I'd be defensive and bitchy with that person too. This obviously is easier said than done, but what if nobody brings it up till the child goes to school. It is that much harder to deal with the later it is caught. Also very early detection of learning disabilities, e.g autism, can be treated easier.(I am not saying that is what is going on with this child) In the US, paediatricians who are trained in this area can refer the child to a specialist who works on retraining and reprogramming the brain. I hope this can be implemented in Canada too as it will make a huge difference to the lives of the children and their families. If caregivers didn't report these things, then the parents who were open to exploring extra help would not have an opportunity to do so. I feel staying quiet does a disservice to the child. I could still sleep better at night after getting an earbashing from a parent knowing that I did everything I could than if I stayed silent. I've just learn't that there is an appropriate way to get this info across.

[BrightEyes]

bright sparks, thank you for telling us about NDDS. I have used developmental screening checklists in licensed daycare but did not know where to access them now. I will definitely be using them from this day fwd!

[Inspired by Reggio]

I have to say that I do believe we have a certain responsibility to the child. ...

I agree ... IMO we cannot have it both ways saying we want to be seen as professionals and be taken seriously as business people and than turning the other cheek when the 'tough stuff' comes up like a child appearing to be 'behind' or what not and saying it is not my responsibility to advocate for the child cause I am not a professional ... we have to make a choice either we are the 'babysitter' with no clue and just following the lead of the parent as we are told or we are a 'professional' with a professional duty to help guide and educate our clients and advocate for those we serve ~ the children. Obviously staying within the scope of education and training we have chosen to ensure we have in order to enter this profession.

I am required by the code of ethics of my professional association to act as an advocate for the children in my care and so I do!

[Momof4]

I have to say that I do believe we have a certain responsibility to the child. While we aren't the parent, as a caregiver, we have a duty to the child to pass on our observations to the parent's. What they do with that information is entirely down to them but then we have played our role to is fullest by passing this info on. If we don't say anything, then we aren't helping but potentially making it worse IMO. I imagine that a lot of parents who lash out at people saying something is up with their child, or implying there is, are being given opinions and feelings versus just supplying them with the fact. They do not want to hear from an unqualified person what they think is wrong with their child. I'd be defensive and bitchy with that person too. This obviously is easier said than done, but what if nobody brings it up till the child goes to school. It is that much harder to deal with the later it is caught. Also very early detection of learning disabilities, e.g autism, can be treated easier.(I am not saying that is what is going on with this child) In the US, paediatricians who are trained in this area can refer the child to a specialist who works on retraining and reprogramming the brain. I hope this can be implemented in Canada too as it will make a huge difference to the lives of the children and their families. If caregivers didn't report these things, then the parents who were open to exploring extra help would not have an opportunity to do so. I feel staying quiet does a disservice to the child. I could still sleep better at night after getting an earbashing from a parent knowing that I did everything I could than if I stayed silent. I've just learn't that there is an appropriate way to get this info across.

Oh, I completely agree with you and I have a verbal update of our day and chat with the parents about any and all of my concerns but what I mean is that if the parent, as in the case here where mlle.c. is pretty sure the Mom is not going to help out, should she make the Mom mad at her by talking about the problem? Like I said you have to know your audience. Yes, we should always tell the parents what we see and explain that we see things from a group care perspective and they see things from a parental perspective. But we have to be careful not to insult their parenting or we are going to be the bad guys, you know?

Once I've told a parent about a problem several times and see that they don't really agree with me I just keep doing the work during daycare hours and hope to see progress and pat myself on the back because I'm never going to get any appreciation from a parent like that.

Case in point: I have a little boy turning 2 this month who is not making progress in one area and I told the Dad about it over the course of a few months at pickup and last week his answer was: he's just a baby. So I am not bringing it up to him any more. This boy is 'being babied' at home which is a big part of the problem, but I'm continuing to show him that I expect great things from him at daycare and he's becoming more and more self-sufficient for me. I think we all can relate to this case.

[bright sparks]

But we have to be careful not to insult their parenting or we are going to be the bad guys, you know?

Absolutly! Unfortunatly, we will always be the bad guy. Generally the first to report these types of things are the ones to bear the brunt of the initial defenses the parents throw up, and It's not usually pretty. Even if this happens though, its part of the process for the parent. They may need to hear the same things brought up from numerous different people before they are able to accept it or let their guard down long enough to think, wow this isn't the first time this has been brought to my attention. Hence why I use the screening tests. Its not me telling them, its a piece of literature based on observations made and has nothing attatched to it which comes from my opinions, experiences or feelings to make it complicated. I think if a parents screams and shouts at me initially its not nice, but I put myself in their shoes and it's the most natural thing to do and initially, yes their judgment will be clouded. Its part of the difficult process of being a parent of a Special Needs and/or LD child. Whats the saying?? "No that could never happen to my child"

[Inspired by Reggio]

Brights ~ have you found that with using the screening tool as the buffer you are still having parents who gets 'upset'?

I have not had any issues with sharing concerns with a client via the checklist approach ... denial sure but never in a conflicted manner where they are made a ME or anything for example it is more of a 'oh we do not see that at home ~ at home he says all those words just fine' even when the kid is standing beside us earlier that day 'mumbling' words incoherently the parent is 'hearing' what they want to hear cause they are use to the 'incorrect speech' as that kids normal but at least that than leaves me doing the 'oh really well that is good to know he has mastered that in the home setting ~ perhaps it is an environmental issue where it is harder to master that in the group setting as his friends and I struggle to understand him still so we will keep working on that here than and keep you informed of changes ~ if you keep working on clear pronunciation of words at home than hopefully it will help him master them here here too'.

After all we can only lead a horse to water we cannot force them to drink!

[bright sparks]

Brights ~ have you found that with using the screening tool as the buffer you are still having parents who gets 'upset'?

No upset parents at all. When they sign their contract and find out that I do this, they are generally suprised as its not expected for me to do this. It's as though they think I am going above and beyond as its a rarety that providers do this.(obviously because providers don't know that these resources are available.) They are extremely thankful, even the parents who don't seem like they give two hoots. It really skips a lot of stress on my part, worrying how I would word things to people and what their reactions would be. Some parents will then talk more in depth and press me for more information and thats great while others don't say much. I send a copy home with them and keep a copy on file. I then email or send letters home from time to time with regards to "areas needing attention", so they know I haven't forgotten what came up and to let them know that I am working on them with their child and whether or not progress is being made. If the parents aren't enthusiastic about working with me then I just stay focused on the child and give them 100%.

[mlle.coccinelle]

Well, little update on this, I had a talk with the mom a week ago about a week ago about the finger sucking. I told her that it had to stop because its first not sanitary (... she is always sick!!) and that my son and other kids started to suck on their fingers ( and we didnt have this problem before..) So we agreed that everytime she put's her finger in her mouth... she has to tell her : No S.. you are not a baby, dont put your fingers in your mouth... Since she understand very well that she is not suposed to do it... ( she hides now...) we are telling her 3 times then its a time out.

Now, I don't think that her mom is doing it at home... Usually by the end of the week... she only does it 2-3 times a day... but when monday comes back around we have to start all over again! it is so frustrating!

the mom explained to me that when she was younger, they had to tape her hands while she was eating because she would put her fingers in her mouth between every mouthful... So that's probably why she doesn't close her mouth when she eats, and it explains the drool!

She is gone on holidays until December 1st so i will do the developmental screening chart when she comes back...

Thank you ladies so much for your help! maybe I will stop having Gray hair about it eventually! AHAH!

[playfelt]

I was going to say that just because a child does a certain behaviour at home does not mean we need to let them do it at daycare. Kids even that are very young will master having different rules at different places as long as whatever rules we have are always consistent for us. This includes things like having a soother all day, or not taking a nap or not banging hot wheels cars together or whatever rules we want to make.

Sometimes that is where I start as in to see if I can break the habit at daycare and as long as there is some improvement over the week even if it gets undone on the weekend then I relax a bit. It is when that doesn't work that I am more likely to bring it up with the parents. Often I will change the behaviour at daycare and then bring up the fact that the child can go without the soother all day or the fingers in the mouth or hold their own bottle. I like to go under the assumption that I don't know the child does this at home - or conveniently forgot and just dealt with it at daycare. Often too once the habit is gone at daycare the child weans themselves at home assuming the parent lets them ie doesn't stuff the soother in their mouth as soon as they walk in the door at pick up and realize the child doesn't have it. That is when I step in and can say oh we are a big girl now and we don't use a soother at daycare anymore. I don't mention that it has been a month since we used it. It is then up to the parent to do something about it at home. Once the child starts school the teacher will have the same expectations as daycare so again two systems will work.

It may take a few months once the hand is gone before you notice more use of sounds. So come January if you still see issues then that is the time to mention something. I often use the JK registration time to mention issues as it gives me an excuse to have been thinking about things either for those going to school in Sept or the following year as in gee we will have to think about getting ready.

[Momof4]

Playfelt is right. The second my hand sucker comes in the door with his hand in his mouth I start pulling it out and reminding him that he's putting sick germs in his mouth, please don't do that. Does his Mom ever do that? I doubt it, but at least she's seeing my example and that's all I can do. But at daycare his rule is that hand sucking and finger sucking is not a good behaviour. I talk to the children a lot about all kinds of safety and cleanliness and keeping germs out of your mouth is actually safety in my opinion.

[playfelt]

Making the habit inconvenient for the child works sometimes too. Such as for the hand sucker set up a dish with a wet cloth in it and a towel and every time you catch him send him to wash. After a few times it gets old quickly and he misses out on things and well too bad you missed your turn. He is old enough to be made to miss out - sorry XXX I can't let you have a turn to hold the book or touch the felt pieces because your hands are wet. You need to stop putting them in your mouth. They are not food. Keep it very matter of fact but it draws it to the child's attention. A lot of times the child just forgets and does the behaviour instinctively. Always being on top of him and sending him to deal with it and wash hopefully will associate something negative with the behaviour and over time he will start to self correct. I don't however praise the child for not doing something like that because I find that has the opposite effect and puts the idea back in the child's head. You don't praise the other children for not sucking on their hands so why this child.

[sunnydays]

I don't have any better advice that all of the excellent advice the ladies here have already given you, but I just have to comment on what the parents told you. They actually taped her hands down?????!!!! This is the kind of parenting that has probably made the problem worse. They have made a huge issue of it and created a lot of negative emotions around it. Does she eat okay now? I would think taping hands down would create a very negative eating environment among other things :no: Very sad!

[mlc1982]

I have a little one who I truly believe he is behind in many ways. I have the screening tests and have answered 'no' to many of the questions here for him. I've mentioned little stuff to mom but nothing in great detail. He is very babied at home and I wonder if that's part of the problem. From a friends experience, I don't want to be the one to falsley 'label' him as having an issue, but from reading this post I feel like I need to say more.

What would be my best way to go about introducing the screening tests to parents so that this kid is not singled out? Overall, I think it's a great idea for all the kids and something the parents should be thankful for, but I just don't want it to seem weird that I'm all of a sudden starting this.

[playfelt]

I generally keep any screening or observations to myself till a child is two. That is the age at which many doctors will start to rethink their advice of don't worry he will grow out of it or don't worry the skill will come. Around two is when we should be seeing mastery of skills that were emerging and being practiced. Late walkers who barely toddled at 18 months should be walking normally by age 2 or saying at least a certain number of words whether been doing it for months or just learned them last week. While all children develop at different rates especially in the infant/toddler years there is an expected baseline mastery that should be there by age 2 so the child can move from toddlerhood into preschool.

[mlle.coccinelle]

. They actually taped her hands down?????!!!! This is the kind of parenting that has probably made the problem worse. They have made a huge issue of it and created a lot of negative emotions around it. Does she eat okay now?
Yeah, that's what she told me! I was SO upset when she told me that! She eats ok now I guess, but she will not close her mouth! I seriously don't understand how she can chew!