Immediate Termination - Deposit??

[Sandbox Sally]

edited for excessive personal information

[monkeymama]

do you this outlined in your policy? my deposit is non refundable no matter what. their behavior is horrid! do you have any prospects to fill the space? if i had someone to take the space, i might think about returning the deposit. you are well within your right to keep it tho, and they frankly dont deserve it. good luck

[mimi]

Does it say in your contract that you may terminate if the relationship because abusive/disrespectful to you or the dck's and/or due to continous late payments? If so I would keep the deposit as they have violated the terms of your contract. You will need to fill this space and they have left you with really no choice but to terminate. They have cost you income. It is not unprofessional to keep what is rightfully yours. Good luck and I good for you for getting rid of these people.

[sunnydays]

You are so right to terminate! You don't have to take that frmo anyone! Crazy rude! I think, if it were me, I would return the deposit as it is meant to be for the last two weeks of care. However, if you have something in your contract about the deposit being forfeited by failure to follow policies, you could keep it.

[Inspired by Reggio]

Hmmm that is a tough one ~ I have it in my code of conduct that 'that while children are 'learning' and will be given a buffer on poor behavior that poor behavior on the adults part is grounds for immediate termination and forfeiting of the security deposit in lieu of notice' .... I also have that 'chronic issues with payment will result in termination of this contract without notice and forfeiting of the security deposit' so there is no question I would KEEP the deposit in a case such as this as the late payment first time is strike one and having to 'chase' them for payment is strike two and the throwing money at you, the silent treatment and so forth are strike THREE because those are all POOR behavior for a grown up to engage in!!!

However that said depends on how much conflict you want to deal with ~ if your contract is not 'clear' that they risked being terminated or loosing their deposit for such behaviour they might get even more childish and try to 'sue you' if you do not return the deposit in lieu of notice ... so depends on if you want to take that risk or just take the high road and refund it to make them go away?

When I worked in administration and we wanted to 'fire' an employee even when we had CAUSE we always just paid them severance pay in lieu of notice cause we wanted them gone with no excuse for them to make more trouble ~ it was just 'easier' to invest in paying them to be gone than to deal with them any longer just to prove we were 'right' cause with people who behave in ways they can be fired or terminated they RARELY think they were in the wrong and are the type to blame everyone else for things that go wrong in their life and think the world owes them and so forth .... and their behaviour to date has me thinking they are 'those types' who are angry with YOU because you had the balls to call them on their poor behaviour which they feel 'entitled' to behave like!

[Sandbox Sally]

Here is what my contract states:

I reserve the right to immediately terminate for the following reasons:

- Non-payment
- Failure to abide by my policies as outlined by my handbook
- Physical or verbal abuse of any person or property
- If a child becomes a danger to the other children
- Failure to complete required forms
- False information given by parents either verbally or in writing

Do I have to have it in my contract that the deposit is forfeited by failure to follow policies? Because isn't that what the deposit is for? Lost wages in the event that they skip out, or in this case, in the event that I have to terminate immediately? The deposit is, essentially for the last two weeks care, but the reason that we secure it is to avoid losing wages in the event of abrupt termination of agreement. I just can't figure out if this is worthy.

[Inspired by Reggio]

Personally IMO if you want to avoid conflict or getting sued for keeping their money while refusing service than YES you need to make it CLEAR that they will also loose their deposit for the reason

Basically I would just add


Forfeit of the security deposit and immediate termination of service will occur if any of the following behaviors occur:

I also have a clause in my contract that basically states 'the decison of the provider to waive any policy in once circumstance does not negate it in future circumstances'!

AKA I might bend the rules for you ONCE if I feel you deserve a second chance but behave like an ass again and the hammer will come down ~ so for example it sounds like you waived your 'late fee' for them the first times and then got fed up and by their rudeness it sounds like they than expected you to keep waiving the late fee cause they were 'special' or something and are now pissed that you are not letting them be special ~ so whenever I waive a policy for a client I always state 'I am waiving the late fee because this was your first offense but please remember that if there is a next time you will be charged $X a day for each day it is late and if there are continued issues with payment termination of the contract will occur' so they've been warned I was NICE but you screw with me and NOT NICE REGGIO comes a calling cause I will not allow you to behave like this ;)

[Sandbox Sally]

I understand what you're saying, Reggio, and it makes perfect sense. I will definitely be clearer in the wording of my contract. Thanks very much for the tip.

[Inspired by Reggio]

With out the clarity what you can try is the immediate termination and not say anything about the 'deposit' and see if they make the same conclusion that they have forfeited it due to their poor behavior .... however if they make a stink about it than you can state that it will be refunded when you do your banking ~ I would do it in a money order or something where you can have a clear 'record' that it was refunded to them for your records!

[Spixie33]

i would personally be more likely to refund the deposit if i really wanted someone gone and it didn't clearly state the non-refundable clause in my handbook or else I might be inclined to give them half back along with their termination letter.
It is a tough one. I will have to check the wording of my contract because I am not even sure what I said now. It would be a bad situation to run into. I hope it goes well for you tonight :)

[playfelt]

Since they came yesterday and paid the fees owing plus I assume the late charge then they have actually done what you asked - paid up or no care on Wed. Which sort of negates your right to immediate termination - that should have been done on Sunday due to no payment before saying late charge would be added as in that gave them the option to stay and pay which they did.

If you decide to terminate then you are basically terminating and applying their deposit to the next two weeks. Just gotta hope they don't stay.

[kidlove]

You could inform of termination and offer care through the deposit, pending whether or not you find a replacement. Maybe they will feel so awkward regarding being terminated, they will immediately look for somewhere else to go. How are your contracts worded? do you offer return of deposit or the equivalent time=deposit? you could offer the time pending a replacement...let them know you will provide care through the deposit UNLESS you get a replacement before the deposit is up...then if things get too rocky before the end of deposit is fulfilled, let them know you have filled the spot. I guess it all depends how your contracts are written, do you require any return of deposit due to immediate termination....i.e. behavior, late pay and such? Perhaps the contract should state the deposit will not be refunded in moneys, rather time/services.???

[Sandbox Sally]

I see your point, playfelt. I am terminating for abusive behaviour at this point, not for the late payments.

Is it reasonable for me to insist that the mom do drop off and pick up for the next two weeks (she stays at home, so she's available for it). I want nothing more to do with the dad. I felt intimidated by his behaviour, and that's a pretty crappy thing to feel in the entryway of your own home, business place or not...

[Sandbox Sally]

My contract states that the deposit is non refundable. I have decided to give them two weeks notice. If they choose to pull out before the end of the two weeks, that is their choice, and in my opinion, they are thereby forfeiting the deposit.

Am I right?

[mimi]

You are correct Alphaghetti. I would also tell them that Mom must do drop off and pick ups as the negativity, verbal/atmospheric, is not acceptable for the daycare's environment.

[playfelt]

Sometimes you need to just let people have their litle tantrums and move on too. They are mad that you stood your ground BUT they did come and pay ahead of time as compared to at drop off today. Dad is in his own way trying to let you know he is mad without saying anything - adults especially men are good with the silent treatment and the passive agressive.

Your other option is to let it all go and I know that is hard to do but give them the chance to get over it - there is an element of embarrassment too besides the anger. Just continue to at normally and see what happens. Give it till Friday to see if everyone settles down, yourself included and then see if the relationship can continue or not.

I know this was a last straw thing but it was resolved so to speak by you getting your payment including penalty by the deadline you set so they are in a way in good standing from today forward. Now having said that are they actively looking for alternate care who knows. But I might be inclined to give it the rest of the week and then if the attitude does not improve then you have grounds for negative behaviour. For today everyone is upset and nothing negative was actually said. Sometimes silence is golden.

[Spixie33]

My contract states that the deposit is non refundable. I have decided to give them two weeks notice. If they choose to pull out before the end of the two weeks, that is their choice, and in my opinion, they are thereby forfeiting the deposit.

Am I right?

Exactly. That is probably the safest way to do it. They know that the two week's deposit would be used for the last 2 weeks and if they choose not to attend then that is self-explanatory No refund.
Good luck. Sounds like a horrid experience with the dad. I would be wary of the whole family and hope they choose not to attend the last two weeks.

[kidlove]

i think your choice is the right one. if your deposit is nonrefundable, the only thing you can do is offer 2 weeks or they can walk. Good for you, and take the next two weeks to look for a good replacement!

[Mamma_Mia]

i think your choice is the right one. if your deposit is nonrefundable, the only thing you can do is offer 2 weeks or they can walk. Good for you, and take the next two weeks to look for a good replacement!

This is how I would approach it as well.
Good luck hun

[Inspired by Reggio]

My contract states that the deposit is non refundable. I have decided to give them two weeks notice. If they choose to pull out before the end of the two weeks, that is their choice, and in my opinion, they are thereby forfeiting the deposit.

Am I right?

Yes if you offer service during the notice period and they choose not to 'accept it' than they are forfeiting their security deposit for sure ~ but again I would make that clear in my termination notice that

'Due to breach of contract under repeated late payments and inappropriate communication conduct notice to severe our service aggreement is being given effective today. As per our contract the security deposit paid upon enrollment is being applied to the last two weeks of the notice period required which will mean that the last day of service for (child name) will be X date. Please note that during the notice period ALL policies and procedures of the program must be followed including remaining polite and cordial during drop off and pick up or immediate termination of the contract will occur along with the forfeiting of any remaining deposit amount. "

IMO that way it is CLEAR that they are being expected to be ANGELIC during the next two weeks or they will just be DONE and if they than choose not to send their child during that period they are forfeiting it!

If you are willing to deal with the silent treatment during drop off and pick ups for the next two weeks should they choose to continue on this seems the best plan ~ personally if they were making me feel uncomfortable enough to want to terminate I would want to just be DONE and would refund their deposit in order to not have to expose myself to any further behavior!

[Momof4]

Here is what my contract states:

I reserve the right to immediately terminate for the following reasons:

- Non-payment
- Failure to abide by my policies as outlined by my handbook
- Physical or verbal abuse of any person or property
- If a child becomes a danger to the other children
- Failure to complete required forms
- False information given by parents either verbally or in writing

Do I have to have it in my contract that the deposit is forfeited by failure to follow policies? Because isn't that what the deposit is for? Lost wages in the event that they skip out, or in this case, in the event that I have to terminate immediately? The deposit is, essentially for the last two weeks care, but the reason that we secure it is to avoid losing wages in the event of abrupt termination of agreement. I just can't figure out if this is worthy.

You have it clearly outlined right there and they have broken the contract by not paying on time and by verbal abuse (bad attitude and rudeness). Since they broke the contract I don't see how you owe them the return of the deposit. In my contract it says that the deposit MAY be applied to the last week of care if all conditions are met. In other words if the client has kept their part of the contract policies. That is not the case here.

However, if you can afford to refund the money to try to keep peace if they start to cause problems for you it might be best to be done with them quickly and quietly. Then, if I were you I would keep my ears and eyes open to make sure they aren't slandering you in any way because it sounds like they are a couple of immature idiots!

[Judy Trickett]

I would let them go as well. BTW, just add this line to your contract:

Any monies paid will not be refunded for any reason should there be a termination of services by any party.

I like catch-all sentences in my contract. They are all encompassing and can be used for tricky situations like this one.

[Lou]

Did you give them the 2 weeks notice Alpha? How did that all go? I , too, would be incredibly uncomfortable with the Dad giving you the "oh so mature" silent treatment, and would want nothing more to do with it. Hope your next 2 weeks go smoothly!!

[DisneyPrincess]

Freakin parents, I am beyond myself to see humans are like that.

I did have a situation with a parent who was mad at me tried to slam the door but its a patio door so I think it was not sliding well enough to slam... and ignored me afterwards... that didnt turn out good for him. My personality does not take ''intimidation'' to well, I can be verbally ''aggressive''. Treat me like durt ?? Get out of my house !!! Anyways, I didnt say anything but didnt do small talk for weeks. I kept saying to myself, 'I'll see how it goes this week and if not better, I'll terminate'. But so far, I just let it go. If they ever get back to me with questions to why the attitude, I'll come back to the situation. I know thats not the best, but thats how I am. I dont forget, nor forgive, easily. Now I just do little smiles, Hi and Bye :S

[Sandbox Sally]

I am planning on giving notice today at pick up. Problem is, I can't decide which route I want to take...

Yesterday at pick up, Mom was so sweet to me, chatting away as if nothing happened, and then today, Dad did drop off, and same thing. Having said that, I still want to terminate. I didn't like the tantrums, and I don't want to put myself in the position of having to deal with that again should they decide that they don't like something else. Also, CONSTANT late payment. I can afford to be down one kid for a while, and he's part time, and I have a full timer starting in two weeks for another part time spot, so I wouldn't be down anything, wage wise.

So. I could send them the original notice that calls them out on their behaviour, but then there are bad feelings, and the possibility that they may badmouth me in our rather small town.

OR...I could tell them that I won't be giving them the special rate that I signed their son on with for their daughter who they want to start in 5 weeks. Therefore, they'll be paying $50 more for their daughter than they pay for their son. I don't think they will agree to this, as they cry poor all the time. It's a chicken's way out, but totally legit, as I haven't agreed to take on their daughter 100%, nor have we signed any contracts, etc.

Either way, two weeks notice goes out tonight.

[DisneyPrincess]

Wow are you seriously willing to have two kids of theirs and risk having double the trouble ??? Payment wise you tolerated longer then I would have. I have three strikes for late payment but havent had to use them yet and frankly, I doubt I would tolerate it... Its payment on Friday of same week, no later. If trouble starts, its payment on Monday morning at drop-off or... no care until. Yah thats better then strikes ;)

[Inspired by Reggio]

Wow ~ ya I would be reluctant to sign on the SIBLING at this rate and committing to another few years of having to deal with that!

I would definitely NOT be giving the sibling a DEAL considering they are a PITA ... if you are considering taking on the sibling than I would be doing new contracts for BOTH children at the NEW FEE and having that contract CLEARLY state that immediate termination and forfieting of security deposit will occur if there is ever a payment issue in future and that the code of conduct for behaviour, communication and conflict resolution's must be followed at all times ~ no way would a client throw money at me or slam my door or 'ignore me' in my own home and hope to continue in my program without a commitment that it would NEVER happen again!

[DisneyPrincess]

To bad we cant all work together ladies... we would have a tough daycare hahaha Bring those parents to us, we'll take care of them lol !!

[Sandbox Sally]

Oh no...I have no intention of taking the sibling. They will not sign her at my normal rate.

[Lou]

You'll feel a huge weight lifted off your shoulders! Hope it went well last night!

[Sandbox Sally]

Mom called today and literally begged me to keep her son on. As I suspected, she won't be sending the sibling, but she wants to continue sending her boy. She gave me the whole, "he loves it there so much, and it seems so cruel to rip him away from people that he has a bond with". :crying:

I relented. He's staying. I feel like a pushover.

One more thing though, I think I will reach my breaking point...

[kidlove]

Oh no alpha......you sound like me. Can't say I wouldn't have done the same as you in the end! However, chances are things will go rocky again, perhaps you should advertise for the spot, then when you get a replacement you won't feel as bad giving notice for past issues, OR replace and by that time, they will probly screw up again. :) all kidding aside, good luck and hope it works out, we ladies in this profession tend to go with our heart from time to time, nothing wrong with that! :)

[playfelt]

See if you can get a sense out of the mom how long he is staying as in when will the other caregiver she has found for the baby have a second opening. Expect by summer, etc. that you will lose him anyways.

[kidlove]

Keep in mind she could be trying to hold you for a bit until she can get both in the same place?

[Lou]

I hope you had a long talk with her about her husband's behavior!!!

[jazmic]

Keep in mind she could be trying to hold you for a bit until she can get both in the same place?

Good point.

[Skysue]

You should still advertise for the spot and see what comes your way, people that are that disrespectful rarely change.

[Momof4]

Don't beat yourself up, you'll know when you've reached your last straw Alpha. I have a family that's been hanging on by the skin of their teeth for over a year because of a whole bunch of small things that build up to make a caregiver insane. However, they are never rude, they always pay on time, and there is nothing big that I can use as an excuse to let them go so I keep hanging in there. I understand your dilemma.

[Sandbox Sally]

Yeah, I think I will be ok if they walk away at some point. I have my ad up here and on Kijiji, and at this point, I will consider removing the family from care if I am able to find someone else.

Thank you for all the support, everyone. It's nice to know, too, that I am supported even when I am a pushover. ;)

[playfelt]

Think of it not as being a pushover but of doing what is best for you - letting them stay till you replace them means more money in your pocket and pressure off to look for the right replacement family.

[mom-in-alberta]

Alpha; not sure what originally happened, but just wanted to say that I hope this works out for you!! Sounds like mom is either looking for a new dayhome for both, or hoping that you will relent and take in the littlest one, too. Because, really, who is going to send their kids to two different places??
Good luck!