What do I do next?

[Shannie]

Hi! I have an issue with my day care girl. She has, from day one, been a trouble maker and difficult child, She just turned 3 btw. When she is here she constantly misbehaves, time outs don't seem to mean anything to her. Anyways...she was sick right before Christmas and didn't come to my home and then I was closed until the New Year. Last week she came and was a new girl! So happy and loving and days went smoothly! well this week is a whole new level of bad...she is in my face yelling "No" whenever I ask her anything. I tell her to not do something...she stops, looks at me and does it again. I ask her why she does certain things she knows she's not allowed to do and she says "because I want to". I know that things are hard for her at home...Her dad works 4 weeks home and then 5 weeks overseas. It's been 8 months of up and downs but the being disrespectful is the last straw! I was also told today at drop off to not let her nap because she slept in, but she wouldn't stay quiet for quiet/nap time so I sent her to bed for a break and she fell asleep. What do I do now?

[Dreamalittledream]

Oh boy, you were told not to let her nap? <insert eye roll here> because she slept in? Sheesh! Sounds like Mom/Dad needed a break this morning too. And so do you. My rules are, everyone naps. If they are not sleeping in their nap area, then they are quietly reading a book etc. I have to laugh...I have had 2 older (3 year olds) start with me where parents said "Oh, they don't nap"....in both cases they were so zonked by nap time they did nap, every single time.
When you say "time outs don't mean anything to her", with my own 3 year old was the same until I actually restrained him in time out (booster chair where they eat meals, with tray clipped on to restrain with timer on)...that worked immediately. You definitely need to find an effective consequence for these negative behaviors; have you discussed any of this with parents, what strategies work at home? Poor you! I have been fortunate not to have to deal with the attitudes/defiance, good luck to you!

[Shannie]

I have discussed it with her mom so many times I couldn't even tell you. She behaves badly at home as well and her mom actually asks me for advise and tells me that she trusts me to do whatever I need to to correct the behavior. It has been a very long 8 months and I'm not sure what I should say to the parents...give them a warning that if this disrespecting behavior/attitude doesn't change then I will have to let her go? Or do I just terminate her. sigh....so tough.

[BlueRose]

Replace then Terminate.
I doubt things will get better if her parents are not willing to work with you on correcting her behavour.

I would be pissed off at the mom for letting her child sleep in. All children must be quiet (hopefully sleep) during quiet time. If a child falls a sleep (I will not keep them awake) them I let them sleep. This is right in my policies. I will never wake a sleeping child unless its an emergency. I don't care what the parents think or say about it.

[playfelt]

The parents might want to consider some kind of intervention for the child to help teach her some coping skills for the changes in her life.

[Momof4]

I tell the parents at the interview that I will be honest with them no matter what issue arises and we will be a team working together to solve the problems. I also tell them that if they don't want to work together with me or give me advice and tell me how they are dealing with things at home so that we are being consistent in teaching the children good manners, good behaviour and appropriate attitudes to get them on the right footing in life that I can't accept them into the daycare.

My honesty and my willingness to be a vital part of their family support system is what attracts great quality clients and families and has made me a very happy caregiver for 5 years now. I highly recommend weeding out these families at the interview stage and save yourself 3 years of hell on earth by bashing your head against the wall with parents who are not on the same page with disciplining bad behaviour. You are not the parent, you are the secondary caregiver, but you spend 40-50 hours a week with the children and you can't spend all those hours going crazy. I have to agree that you have done all you can with this family and should get out now.

[Shannie]

UPDATE: Yesterday afternoon DCG took a pen and drilled it through our art easel. I made her tell her mother what she did and she told her....proudly. I told the mom that I am at a loss as to what to do anymore. I was then informed that she has been acting out at home badly as well, gee...thanks for the heads up. And she doesn't know what to do either. I will see if she comes up with a solution this weekend, if she doesn't improve next week. I'll give her notice. When she acts out, my daughter tends to act out on those days too...she feeds off this girl. :( I never expected running a dayhome to be sooooo stressful. Thanks for your advise ladies. I wish I would have found this forum 8 months ago!:glomp:

[Dreamalittledream]

Wise choice on the termination:). Big cheers on truly trying your best. I often wish I could climb into their little heads sometimes and understand the why's behind behaviors and fix it for them. Did Mom offer to pay for a new easel?

[Momof4]

Shannie, you just hit the nail on the head. It is NOT suposed to be that stressful. When you get your newest baby to finally stop screaming and become a happy part of daycare life and he finally mixes in well with the other children who know all the rules and routines and your days are filled with fun and laughter, inside and outside and the days run smoothly. (Or is that just me, haha)

You're run off your feet and exhausted from doing a great job at the end of the day but there shouldn't be any behaviour and stress that you're going through right now. I'm glad you talked to the parents and laid it on the line that they MUST find the solution and let you know how they are handling it. I really believe that kind of consistency is the only way to turn things around.

I can't believe she totalled your easel like that! Wow! Good luck with this one.

[Shannie]

The mom did say that DCG has the same easel at home so she will exchange it for me. Thank goodness for somethings. I am sure things will be so much better when she is gone. I have been close to quitting so many times, thinking I couldn't cut it. But having her sick and not here for awhile made me realize that it wasn't me, just that one child. I hope the parents can find this little girl the help that she so desperately needs.

[daycarewhisperer]

Instead of looking at it as something that will upset the parents think of it as a huge gift to them. They need the life experience of one adult after another saying "not on my watch". They need to hear that the child has behaviors that you won't do in your business. The next provider will tell them too. They need to hear it OVER AND OVER again. Just think of yourself as a brick in the wall of their understanding, accepting, and dealing with their child.



We sometimes have a tendency to over rate our actual impact on families. We put ourselves so highly in their life and sometimes we are. Some times we are just a stop over to teach them one thing about their child. In this family's case, your role is just to say NO. They don't need anything else from you but that NO. You don't have to offer up fixes or appologies. Just do the NO and have them go about their way.

I don't believe they can't do anything with her. My gut tells me they just don't want her to cry so they are allowing her to behave terribly so they don't have to pay when they tell her no. Time for them to be put to the test to see what they can do. They will most likely go thru a few more places before they actually get it so your terming now is just one piece. That's an important piece tho.

Hold your head high and be firm. Tell them that her behavior is not appropriate for your environment and she can't continue to attend. They won't like it but believe me, they will hear much worse in the future. A few years from now they won't even remember your name and won't give a thought to the no you are giving them now.

[Shannie]

I agree. They need something to make them shake their heads and realize, my child's problems are serious and make a change at home or seek out help. Thanks again everyone. I have her next on Tuesday so wish me luck when I give notice. I've only ever terminated once before and it wasn't pretty!

[Momof4]

Good luck Shannie, I'm glad you have made up your mind and know what you have to do. Terminating is never easy but it's necessary. You are going to be so happy when it's done and over and you can enjoy every single day again.

[Harmoni]

Hi Shannie,

Maybe it's time for the parents to try to enroll her in the "puff" program?? When I first opened I got the kids in town other providers had turned away! And one little boy who had just turned three in particular had already had a long list of dayhomes under his belt!! His parents had tried everything because he certainly didn't save that behaviour for dayhome it was for everywhere! Finally they found a doctor who was willing to take it further and got him enrolled at 3.5 into this puff program and it has worked miracles!!! Before he went everyday was HORRIBLE!!! Now we still have some rough days but nothing like in the beginning. When he started I wanted to terminate everyday (but needed the paycheck). Now all the adults in his life know not to over stimulate him or else the devil shows up! I try to keep the day fun, but a little humdrum as well. Two years later is a big improvement, and I know without a doubt how much his parents respect me for hanging in there! But I must say, I don't think I would do it again. In fact I just turned another three year old boy away, who couldn't even get through the interview without destroying my playroom!
Even if you do terminate tomorrow, I would suggest looking into that program! So not looking forwasrd to summer when there is no school or puff program! :(

[Inspired by Reggio]

Harmoni ~ I thought the Puff program was for children with Asthma learn how to manage it in school settings ~ how would that help with this child's behaviour or are their multiple programs that use that terminology?

[Harmoni]

Hi Reggio,
There must be different ones. This little guy goes there for the behaviour issues and I know of another that used it for delayed speech. She had lots of words but wouldn't use them in a sentance. But my understanding is it takes a lot to get them in there if they're not showing big signs for the bigger things like autism. But it was great because they sent home awesome work books geared to the individual needs and both the mom and I went in for a meeting. That way we could both know what was happening and how to handle the situation! My belief is it takes a village to raise a kid, we might as well be on the same level! :)

On a side note, I'm in AB. Maybe that's the difference? I noticed Shannie was in AB too.

[Inspired by Reggio]

....
On a side note, I'm in AB. Maybe that's the difference? I noticed Shannie was in AB too.

Oh could be ~ might be a different acronym in Alberta.

[DisneyPrincess]

I also have a bad behaviour 3 y.o. girl. She does what she wants with her parents, well with the mother... its insane. With me, she gives me all the attitude in the world probably half the time she's with me, and so she is half the time in time-out. I am very tough when it comes to R.E.S.P.E.C.T. She will be leaving soon for a month to visit the familia overseas and I can guarantee she will come back three times worst. I will probably give my opinions to the parents on disciplining her even if they are on vacation as I DO NOT want to spend the rest of the year with this ''miss attitude''... until she leaves for school in September, thank god ! :\

[kidlove]

def know when to say when with certain kids, families, or issues. That being said: if you are not qiute ready to say when yet...there are a couple things I did with a little girl I had, same age, same attitude that tended to work most days. given she seems to be an attention hog, I would remove her from the area or room if possible when she is acting out, no words with her no conversation.....jus t take her by the hand in the middle of her fit or acting badly, walk her to a quiet room or area where she can not get anyones attention or see anyone and place her there, if saying anything at all, perhaps tell her to "stay" and walk away! if she throws a fit? good! you know it affects her. in doing this (with most kids who act out) you are not only NOT giving her what she wants, which is ANY form of attention, positive or negative, but you are also "training" her to remove her from a situation that frustrates her. If you stick to this method, you may find after too long she will request to be removed from the room if things get too tough for her, or she will willing go into a quiet room or place to cool off! The other thing you can do is to ignore her behavior, IF she chooses to throw herself on the floor or act out toward you or anyone else, just igbore her and encourage others to do the same, whether it be Mom at the door for pickup or other children, if she screams, look at Mom and all others and audibly announce that no noe is to talk to ____ or look at her until she is willing to bahave properly and or appoligize for being mean or disrespectful. Encourage Mom to do the same at home, we all know IF a parents is not following through the same as us, our efforts can often be wasted. i have also in the past taken the trouble girl aside in such situations as outside paly and had her sit on the porch for the rest of play and watch the children have fun rather than take part and explain to her it is because of her poor choice of behavior. Also offered the kids special (out of schedule) snacks treats or rewards for positive behavior in front of the trouble child, also explaining that when they choose to behave they too can take part in the fun offer or special treat, but otherwise may sit and watch the others enjoy their much earned reward or take early rest time while others enjoy it! Always put enphasis on the positive in a child like this and much less attention on the negative. These kids are generally "attention seeking" little people and in their opinion ANY is better than none at all! give them none when poorly behaved and you might be surprised at how well they figure out how to get the attention back, but in a good way! good luck! these types can turn your happy days backwards, stay strong, and know when enough is enough, for your sake and hers.