Link to rules for Private providers

[sunnydays]

Hi everyone. I am just wondering if someone can share the link to the rules in Ontario for private home daycare providers...particul arly regarding numbers of children. I have read it more than once and I understand well what the rules are, but now I can't remember where I found it! I would like to save the link to refer people to. It seems every time I meet other caregivers who work through agencies, they get quite shall we say, up on their high horses, about numbers and insist that the DNA numbers apply to everyone....that is apparently, what the agencies are telling them. My guess is agencies tell them this to keep them from leaving because if they knew the truth, they would be more likely to leave due to the freedom in regards to age ratios. It frustrates me and I would like to clear them up with the information straight from the source! Thanks!

[Sandbox Sally]

I would like that link, too. I had a daycare mom challenge me about it recently. She told me that it was against Ontario daycare standards for me to have 5 kids under 3. I am unlicensed.

I do know that if you aren't with an agency, there are no age limits, but we are still only permitted to have five children in our care at any given time (not including our own kids), and this includes visitors that you are not being paid to care for.

[playfelt]

This is a copy of a letter from the ministry that the CCPRN has posted on their website.

http://www.ccprn.com/en/information-for-caregivers/questions-and-answers-for-caregivers/ministry-guidelines/

If the link doesn't work go the website www.ccprn.com and look under information for providers and frequently asked questions.

[playfelt]

Yes agency parents face two issues - age restrictions of the daycare kids and that their own kids count in the number of 5 total. For sure I can see why an agency would tell people their rules are the only ones out there.

[sunnydays]

Thanks Playfelt! This is exactly what I was looking for! I knew all of these rules and follow them carefully, but get so annoyed when other daycare providers treat me like I don't know what I am talking about because they "have been told" the rules by the agency. I wish people would take the time to research things for themselves instead of relying on what they have been told or even worse, what they have heard from others :cursing:

[Inspired by Reggio]

Well of COURSE the agency is going to imply through careful wording that those ratios and restrictions apply to everyone and not correct them of that assumption ~ cause if as a provider is having to count her own two children in her ratios meaning she can only have income on 3 children OR if they have a space or two sitting open because they cannot find two children who are over 3 to meet those ratios or they already have two children under two and they knew they could have 5 children of ANY AGE they were comfortable with if they went privately and keep all their income as a result what incentive is there for them to stay with the agency while loosing money ;)

Here is a link to CURRENT licensing guidelines for Ontario that is written more 'in normal language



http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/parents/orientation-package-en.pdf

CHILD CARE IN ONTARIO
The child care system in Ontario consists of a range of services for families and their children, including licensed day nurseries and private-home day care which provide supports to children and their families.

The Day Nurseries Act requires any premise that receives more than five children under the age of 10 years, not of common parentage (children who have different parents), for temporary care and guidance, to be licensed as a day nursery.

A person may provide informal child care to five children or less under the age of 10 years who are not of common parentage (children who have different parents), in addition to his/her own children, without a licence. This number may not be exceeded, regardless of the number of adults present or on site.

When a person provides in-home child care at more than one location or co-ordinates the provision of care at more than one site, a licence to operate a private-home day care agency is required.

It is an offence to establish, operate or maintain a day nursery or private-home day care agency without a licence. On conviction, the fine is up to $2,000 for each day the offence continues, or imprisonment for a term of not more than one year, or both.

Ministry staff have the responsibility to follow-up on all complaints about child care being provided without a licence.

So basically the ONLY rule that applies to us according to the DNA is that we cannot have more than 5 children under the age of 10 in our programs ~ our own children of common parentage to us as the provider do not count ;)

Here is a link to the day nursery act as it is currently written
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900262_e. htm

However that said that these are the 'current' rules for unregulated providers ~ I will share that I too have been hearing lots of rumors through the regulated industry and peers who have sat directly or had a boss whose sat at the round table discussions on the changes coming down the pipe there is rumor that the NEW Day Nursery Act that is currently being revised as part of the Modernizing Ontarios Childcare is projected to contain some changes that WOULD make the rules the same for everyone ~ everyone would have to count their own children and so forth as well as rumor that being 'unregulated' will no longer be an option that anyone wanting to provide childcare for the purpose of business would be required to be registered in some manner and subject to random inspection by the Ministry as a result ... but at this point in time the rules above are what are in effect until they get off their arses and actually pass the new proposed changes into 'law'!

[sunnydays]

Thank Reggio! Well I sincerely hope they don't make the age ratios and counting your own children under 10 apply to all of us or I am not sure I will be able to continue as a daycare provider. If I have to count my two children even if they are in school full-time, then I could only hve 3 kids...not enough to make a living. I am fine with registering and being checked etc..nothing to hide here...but since my daughter is only 2 1/2, I have quite a few years to go until none of my own kids would count! I hope they take into consideration the sudden shortage of childcare they are going to cause when people like me are forced to shut down for lack of financial viability. I love providing childcare and have built a daycare I am really proud of and I know I provide quality care. I really hope to be able to continue!

[sunnydays]

Reggio...and others...how soon do you think they might implement new rules and laws for all of us??? Maybe I should start thinking of a back up plan now...you've got me worrying... :(

[apples and bananas]

Does anyone know if my step children count towards my numbers or not? I believe they do because they're not legally mine... however... what if dad's home with them?

[Inspired by Reggio]

... I hope they take into consideration the sudden shortage of childcare they are going to cause when people like me are forced to shut down for lack of financial viability. ...

One would hope that they would 'graduate' any changes in slowly and in a better manner than what they did with Full Day Early Learning ... cause even with that graduated change over the course of 5 years it has resulted in the closing of many childcare centres across Ontario and will likley continue to do so by the time 2015 rolls out and ALL schools have this option ... centres are not able to cope because the loss of 4 to 5 year olds was their main 'profit' as toddler programs break even and infant programs cost money to offer in the regulated industry, there is a large inability of the programs to 'alter/renovate' their businesses to care for infants and toddler ages instead because of the additional requirements this age impose and well in some cases the inability to 'staff' the programs with the loss of ECE in their communities migrating to the better paying school based positions creating a shortage of being able to meet even the 'bare minimum' of only 1 RECE per group ... that change has truly done a number on the 'centre' industry for sure and I am afraid what further 'changes' might do!

I will admit that one of 'paranoid wear a tinfoil hat' thoughts that occassionally enters my mind when I hear rumors about the current government agenda is that they WANT to destroy the current childcare system by driving those of us who could not 'adapt' to a regulated one out of business in order to create a further shortage of 'childcare' and therefore make it more palatable for big business to accept voting for tax payers supporting a 'national childcare program' where they would be no option to be 'private business' at all ... I believe that they truly goal is to have ALL childcare options under the Ministry of Education umbrella in a non profit regulated partnership ... and lots of organizations out there lobbying for this as well as 'unregulated childcare' always gets tainted as evil and responsible for all the harm and even when horrible things happen in a regulated industry it gets implied that it was because we still do not have ENOUGH regulation :rolleyes:

[Inspired by Reggio]

Reggio...and others...how soon do you think they might implement new rules and laws for all of us??? Maybe I should start thinking of a back up plan now...you've got me worrying... :(

They have been 'revising' the DNA since 2007, they release the paper last year in 2012 and than started the public opinion feedback portion ... so who the heck knows how long before it actually gets voted on and passed cause the wheels of government roll slow :rolleyes:

That said I personally will not be investing huge amounts of additional money into my business at this point until they get around to releasing the final 'verdict' ~ I have worked in regulated industry for most of my career and could likely move back into it if we could be directly registered without a 'middle man' but I really have little desire to work with an 'agency' again cause it would result in a pay cut and well I would have to reflect on my pros and cons to doing this or something else where I could be self employed and make same money!

[Inspired by Reggio]

Does anyone know if my step children count towards my numbers or not? I believe they do because they're not legally mine... however... what if dad's home with them?

This is a grey area and you will likely get 100 different answers depending on peoples experience with different agencies and government employees and their interpretation of 'common parentage'.

My step son was counted in my ratios until he turned 10 because according to my home inspector he was not of common parentage to ME and I was the one providing 'daycare' and his father even while home as the custodial parent was irrelevant because under the DNA I could only have 5 children in attendance regardless of the number of adults present ~ so he put me 'over' as a result ... now had my SPOUSE been doing childcare he would not have counted in ratio at all because your own children stop counting once they turn 10 :rolleyes:

It was a very STUPID interpretation IMO and well that is the problem with the DNA as it is currently written ~ there is no LOGIC to some of their stupid rules!

[playfelt]

I am so glad I am nearing the end of my daycare years and not just starting. At this point I am not prepared to go to great lengths to get registered.

CCPRN posted a link on facebook to a program that will help people who have been with an agency for at least 12 months take their ECE training. And this may be how it starts - to get access to the training we would need to join an agency. Then if they make rules about the "training" needed to be licensed as a provider it becomes a catch 22 situation. I would say worth looking at all options especially for those starting out and at possible options for those at the other end of the spectrum. I don't think things will move that quickly but they are at least in motion.

[Inspired by Reggio]

... I don't think things will move that quickly but they are at least in motion.

So you are seeing these signs and hearing rumors in Ottawa as well Playfelt?

I know sometimes peers here think I am 'crying wolf' so to speak with the way I interpret the Modernizing Childcare in Ontario document they released and the subtle wording about their goals for childcare combined with the subtle changes I keep seeing in our region that indicates that unregulated childcare is likely going to be phased out ... just curious to the signs you are seeing your way as a member of the CCPRN?

[sunnydays]

Yeah, I looked into going with an agency when I started and I quickly realized it would not be viable for me. If I am forced to go through an agency and take a huge pay cut, I will likely look into doing something else. I love providing childcare and love being home for my kids, but I have discovered that I also love working for myself, making my own rules, building my own business, etc. I don't mind if we have to register somewhere and even have some sort of inspection, but not if it affects numbers and ratios to include my own kids and not if I have to give a percentage of my income to an agency that I, quite frankly, have no need of. I am able to fill my daycare quite easily without them and I have access to training through CCPRN.

[playfelt]

The CCPRN has held a full day workshop on the ELECT document and they have another one coming up. There has always been an attempt to help providers become more professional in how they conduct their daycares, present themselves, their upgrading etc.

There just seems to be an unspoken undercurrent to everything childcare related in Ottawa from becoming the test case for playdates rules based on that pool death to having daycare centres that have complained about the loss to full day K, and as Sunnydays pointed out the agencies are somewhat pitting their people against us. The CCPRN does take a political stand on issues and make it their business to let the government know what they like and don't like and how we feel about it all.