Violent 3yo - WWYD?

[Sandbox Sally]

I have had dcb for 8 months. I have had issues with his parents, but that's not his fault, and I did usually enjoy having him.

I've edited to add that he's not quite 3 right now. He will be in a few weeks.

Recently (since after Christmas) he's been hitting, throwing, telling me no, kicking...well you get the idea. My 13 year old dd and I saw him outside our house last week kicking and biting his mother. His mother did nothing, at least while they were still here.

Today, when I was trying to get him to come to circle time, he turned with a wooden tractor, screamed, "NO!" and hit me square in the face with it. It really hurt. I saw red, and had to walk into the other room to cool off. After I calmed down, I went back and talked to him. He refused to apologize, and kept laughing at me.

I know he's only a toddler, but he's pretty much terrorizing the daycare right now. He regularly pitches fits like this and throws toys. Sometimes the other kids get hit. I've caught him hurting his own sister on purpose - she's 11 months old.

There must be something going on with him. But, I am not a psychologist, and I only see him three times a week. I really don't know how to quell this. I have tried reasoning, positive reinforcement, and consequences such as sitting out. So far, he's not responding. It has been 2.5 months of trying, and I'm getting nowhere.

I don't know what to do. I have told his mom a couple of times, and she kind of blows it off. Is this worth giving notice for? Would it be fair of me to give him a letter stating that if he does something like this again, he will no longer be welcome in my program? It's not his parents' fault, and I know there's little they can do to stop him from being violent another time, but I am sick and tired of waiting to get hit or kicked. Today, it was a heavy toy, and I am NOT pleased. He could have broken my nose or my glasses.

[Dreamalittledream]

My first thought was, his poor little sister! Good for you for taking a second to just walk away and breath...wow! Such a hard decision when you have siblings....in all likelihood if you term one both with go. Big loss of income. Bit what a relief it would be. I can't imagine always being on edge wondering who and what he may harm next. I would definitely give a warning. This just cannot go on happening, for your sanity and for the other children (who just may pick up this behavior)...for safety of all! Hopefully with a warning Mom will realize the severity and come on board with helping this little guy overcome these behaviors.
My strategy when something major occurs (hitting etc) is immediately they go in a booster chair for time out (tray attached) and the timer goes on. It is very rare that I have to use this, but it works. Sounds like you've tried similar already, though. Good luck to you!

[Spixie33]

I guess it depends on your situation and whether you can afford to terminate....but personally I would probably be telling mom what happened at pick up and say that this is the final warning and that if he doesn't change very quick then you can no longer have him in the daycare.

She has to be on board to nip this behaviour in the bud and enough is enough. When it gets to the point where he laughs at hurting you - not good :( Even worse...he is probably going to be a bad influence on the others kids in the group. Often times - other kids will then exhibit the same behaviours and your other daycare parents might notice this type of aggressive behaviour in their kids and blame you /daycare as the source.

The other parents might not say so but they are probably going to think so and not want their children around this type of environment/children.

I would either give the final warning or terminate. This just sounds like it is lasting too long and progressing for the worse rather than getting better.

[Bookworm]

Honestly, he's three (almost) and should know better. He obviously acts like this at home to get his own way, and it works.
If the mom has blown off this behaviour in the past, then I don't really think you are going to get any help from home. However, I would probably write them an email/letter or have a face to face conversation about his behaviour, how it is not acceptable and if they do not work with you to rectify this behaviour in whatever time period you give them, then unfortunately, the boy can no longer stay at your daycare. He is a huge liability for you. What if he seriously hurts another child when throwing toys etc. The other parents are not going to be happy at all. I know it's a PITA to replace siblings, but maybe start advertising now during so you aren't out too much income.
I'm still trying to find a replacement for my biters, and thought today to myself that maybe I should rethink my decision to replace them as they have been doing so well lately....and lo and behold, one of them tried to bite my son this morning. It reinforced that they are a liability to me, and they need to go.
Hope everything gets resolved the way you would like. Good luck.

[Sandbox Sally]

I actually have my ad up right now because I am losing another child the second week of March, because her mom's work schedule has changed, and she can't get here until an hour after I am closed.

So - I'd be losing THREE around the same time, but I have had several inquiries from my ad already, and could likely fill the spots. I only really need to fill two spots, as the sib set are part timers.

I don't know. On one hand, this family's been nothing but grief after hassle after grief. On the other, that's a lot of change and a lot of what if's in a short time.

[Fun&care]

I would say to write the dcm a letter with all the details as to what has been going on, how it's affecting you and the other kids, and emphasize that she needs to work with you on this issue otherwise it will have to mean termination because he is putting others in danger of physical harm. Hitting you with a toy is absolutely unacceptable! As for discipline, I would say that you need to find what he doesn't like, what REALLY gets to him. Maybe time out in a playpen or strapped into a booster or something, or taking away a toy that he really likes...when time outs fail, look for something else that would upset him, get his attention and start listening to you. Just my 2 cents ;)

[Other Mummy]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I would term. Hitting you with a toy truck in the face and laughing. Alphaghetti you don't need that abuse. Nor do you other dck's. Let him go (including sister unfortunately) and fill that spot with a child who is not the spawn of the devil!

[Trace of Angels]

I would have to ask how is this child's language and communication level? They estimate that almost 90% of toddlers hit. They lack the communication and language to express their frustration so they hit. I would try to find out why he is hitting and work on that. Is something frustrating or upsetting him? Can you support him in that way and teach him other ways to deal with his frustration? If we terminated all children that "hit" our homes might become revolving doors????
If his language and communication is top notch then he needs to learn boundaries and limitations in your home. This is unacceptable behaviour and the instant it happens there is a consequence (time out) and it is very matter of fact. Stay calm and let him see that there are consequences to his actions (cause and affect) and do so every single time. My guess is that it won't take him long to learn :-)

[Sandbox Sally]

I would have to ask how is this child's language and communication level? They estimate that almost 90% of toddlers hit. They lack the communication and language to express their frustration so they hit. I would try to find out why he is hitting and work on that. Is something frustrating or upsetting him? Can you support him in that way and teach him other ways to deal with his frustration? If we terminated all children that "hit" our homes might become revolving doors????
If his language and communication is top notch then he needs to learn boundaries and limitations in your home. This is unacceptable behaviour and the instant it happens there is a consequence (time out) and it is very matter of fact. Stay calm and let him see that there are consequences to his actions (cause and affect) and do so every single time. My guess is that it won't take him long to learn :-)

Did you read my post thoroughly? I did mention that I've used consequence. I did mention that I spoke to him calmly. I am very consistent. He hasn't learned. That's the problem here.

He's almost 3. He can talk. It isn't a communication issue. He hits when he's not getting what he wants. That much is clear.

I have three children of my own, not to mention the many children that I have had in the context of my daycare. I know what reasonable behaviour looks like for a toddler. To be honest, I don't care why he hit me in the face with a toy, on purpose. I don't care why he's constantly hitting the other kids. I don't care why he's biting his mother. There is never an excuse or reason for a child to do that, and I refuse to recognize this as a normal behaviour.

I have never terminated a child for hitting before, but I might well do so this time. No worries about my daycare becoming a "revolving door".

[Other Mummy]

Good for you Alpaghetti..Sounds like you made your decision.:yes:

[playfelt]

I would have the conversation with mom at pick up in front of the child and involve the child. Start by saying to mom oh XXXX needs to tell you what he was doing at daycare today that made us really upset (use us not me as in group not a personal attack even though it was but that is only part of the issues). Or better yet have the toy involved with you. Then say XXX needs to tell you how he didn't play nicely with this toy today. Talk him through the words to say and if he doesn't talk which he likely won't then say it for him. Do you need to tell mommy that you hit me in the face with this toy because you didn't get your own way. Even if he then just nods or smirks or in some way reacts mom will know it is the truth. Then turn to the mom and say the behaviours are out of control and enough is enough. He is hurting me, his sister and I fear for the safety of the other children in my care. I would probably leave it at that and let mom make the next move. You could say call me later if you want to talk.

Hopefully mom will get a wake up call at some point or at least do a double think the next time that night child misbehaves. Expect her to at some point admit that she doesn't know what to do. Suggest that she see her doctor and ask for a referral to a psychiatric clinic for children. With the current push towards mental health and getting to children as early as possible there may be hope of him being seen. What you are showing is that he is willfully hurting people for the shear pleasure it brings to him - that is totally a sign of issues that need to be addressed professionally.

I would use the parent's willingness to get professional help as one measure of whether I kept him or not. Also at what point do we have the right to become physical with a child for the protection of the others in care in the sense of restraining - it is different tying a 3 year old to a chair than it is putting a one year old in their high chair even if the reasoning is the same - stay put cause I said so.

[sunnydays]

Alpha, I think I would terminate too! That is unacceptable from a child that age! He is not a little 18 month old who is testing the waters. At almost 3, a child should not be hitting and certainly not biting! My children NEVER use this kind of aggression with me or with each other (my daughter went through a short biting phase at around 12-14 months, but that's it). My tolerance for violence is low. I will work on it with a toddler (by toddler I mean 18 months to 2 years) if parents are supporting me. At the first sign of hitting or other acts of aggresstion, I start talking with parents about how to nip it in the bud. If a child that age hit me in the face with a toy on purpose, I don't know that I could continue to work with that child.

[Trace of Angels]

So sorry if I offended you :-( Totally not my intention. Just trying to help out...........You have to do what is best for you and it sounds like you are. Please take care and my sincere apologies again and hope that you have a great day :-)

[Momof4]

Wow Alpha, I'm glad your ads are up. I have a little boy in my daycare who turns 3 on March 6th so exactly the same age. He is docile and sweet and well behaved and polite and listens very well. You know what you have to do. That behaviour is completely unacceptable.

[daycarewhisperer]

I have a no violence policy so he would have been termed on the first offense. I offer a completely violence free program so I would have to send him out the door immediately after he got violent with me or anyone under my roof or on my property. There is no amount of money that would keep that kid under my roof. Too risky for me and the daycare kids I have would be devastated if they saw anyone hurt me or be mean to me. That day would have turned into a cry fest and the kids would be scared. Their parents would be livid if I let him come back. Not worth any amount of money.

[cfred]

I don't know if this helps at this point, but:

I had a little guy several years ago who had a pretty decent anger problem - temper tantrums, throwing things, hitting. Since clients were hard to come by out in the boonies, I worked with him on dealing with his anger, though I'm not a therapist in any way. We talked about good feelings and bad feelings and how sometimes we feel so mad we want to hit, scream, etc. I could see his behaviour was bothering him. So, I starting doing this 'breathing game' with him. When he felt angry (I saw it coming usually - eventually got to point of telling me) we would sit together and take a really deep breath in. That breath represented good feelings coming in. Okay, hold it! Super big breath out - that was the bad feelings going out. After each breath out, I'd say something like "Oh, I just saw some of your bad feelings leave! How wonderful! Shall we do it again?" He always wanted to do it again and after a few repetitions, he was calm, under control and feeling better. We had to seal those good feelings in with a big hug, which were often tearful for him, but he seemed almost relieved. I passed this on to his mom, who started using this method at home. Last we spoke, though a long time ago, she was still doing it! I was astonished that this worked as I had no idea what I was doing, but it really seemed to do the trick. We didn't have any violent outbursts after that. I had originally tried time outs, but found it exacerbated the tantrum. Sometimes, with some kids, there's a real, emotional issue that's beyond just normal 'booger behaviour'. This technique removed him from the situation and gave him a means to deal with his anger and to help it dissipate rather than submitting - I guess he felt like he wasn't being controlled.

[Nurse2]

I would first ask his mom what she would be willing to allow for "punishment". Ask if it is ok if you use time outs of 5-10 minutes when he is out of sorts. Be respectful to her wishes though. If she says she does not agree with time outs, inform her that if you cannot enforce rule in your home, that you have to let him go. She may change her mind and agree to time outs.
Give his mom the benefit of the doubt and try this. Time outs can be of benefit for young children, and they also give you some control in this situation.

[sunnydays]

Cfred, I love this idea!!! My 2.5 year old daughter tends to have a bit of a temper and when she gets mad, she throws things and shrieks etc. I wouldn't say she is an angry child at all, but has little temper flare-ups now and again when something doesn't work for her (like she can't get the buckle done up on the doll stroller...LOL). My 4 year old son tends to cry when he is mad or upset. I could see this method helping for both of them and I have been looking for a way to help them calm themselves down in those situations. Thankfully neither of them is violent toward others, but I relaly like the idea of teaching deap breathing so they can learn to calm themselves. I will give it a try and let you know how it goes!




I don't know if this helps at this point, but:

I had a little guy several years ago who had a pretty decent anger problem - temper tantrums, throwing things, hitting. Since clients were hard to come by out in the boonies, I worked with him on dealing with his anger, though I'm not a therapist in any way. We talked about good feelings and bad feelings and how sometimes we feel so mad we want to hit, scream, etc. I could see his behaviour was bothering him. So, I starting doing this 'breathing game' with him. When he felt angry (I saw it coming usually - eventually got to point of telling me) we would sit together and take a really deep breath in. That breath represented good feelings coming in. Okay, hold it! Super big breath out - that was the bad feelings going out. After each breath out, I'd say something like "Oh, I just saw some of your bad feelings leave! How wonderful! Shall we do it again?" He always wanted to do it again and after a few repetitions, he was calm, under control and feeling better. We had to seal those good feelings in with a big hug, which were often tearful for him, but he seemed almost relieved. I passed this on to his mom, who started using this method at home. Last we spoke, though a long time ago, she was still doing it! I was astonished that this worked as I had no idea what I was doing, but it really seemed to do the trick. We didn't have any violent outbursts after that. I had originally tried time outs, but found it exacerbated the tantrum. Sometimes, with some kids, there's a real, emotional issue that's beyond just normal 'booger behaviour'. This technique removed him from the situation and gave him a means to deal with his anger and to help it dissipate rather than submitting - I guess he felt like he wasn't being controlled.

[cfred]

Cfred, I love this idea!!! My 2.5 year old daughter tends to have a bit of a temper and when she gets mad, she throws things and shrieks etc. I wouldn't say she is an angry child at all, but has little temper flare-ups now and again when something doesn't work for her (like she can't get the buckle done up on the doll stroller...LOL). My 4 year old son tends to cry when he is mad or upset. I could see this method helping for both of them and I have been looking for a way to help them calm themselves down in those situations. Thankfully neither of them is violent toward others, but I relaly like the idea of teaching deap breathing so they can learn to calm themselves. I will give it a try and let you know how it goes!

Thanks Sunnydays, I hope it helps. It was a long time ago and I was trying to remember exactly what I said, so it's not right on, but pretty close. I would sometimes say 'Oh, did you feel that? Some of those bad feelings left!" Then the child is part of the process of changing the situation. I think it just gave the little guy a less extreme outlet for those feelings. With one of my older kids (8 yrs) I gave him a little notebook to write in when he felt very angry. I don't think it lasted too too long, but for a while, when he felt angry, he'd tell his mom that he needed to be by himself for a little while, then he'd grab his notebook and disappear. I think, many times, kids just get sooooo frustrated that they don't know what to do. Offering alternatives is sometimes, with ongoing anger management issues, better than discipline. They need to channel it somehow. Of course, that's just my 2 cents :) Good luck and let me know if it does the trick.