Proposed changes to the DNA in Ontario

[sunnydays]

I attened a meeting through CCPRN last night about the proposed changed to the DNA in Ontario. There are several different proposals and we do not yet know which one the Minister of Education will go with. One of these proposals (not surprisingly put forth by an agency) is that private daycare providers be allowed a maximum of 4 children including our own, but agency providers could have 7 (only 3 of which can be under 4 though). The Minister of Education, Liz Sandals, has made it clear that she intends to remove incentives to remain private and try to have all of us licensed in some way (we do not know yet if it will be working through an agency or through some new type of licensing or accrediation program). The CCPRN has proposed having caregivers go through an accreditation process instead which would ensure that we have things like CPR, police checks, safe homes, and professional development/training. The main message at the meeting was that we need to have our voices heard! We need to write letters to the Minister of Education and the ADM of Education (I will post email addressed once CCPRN sends it out) and have our parents write letters as well. In those letters we need to give concrete examples of the quality programming that we provide that engages brain development in young children (apparently this is the new buzz word for the govt...LOL). Our daycare parents can write letters outlining why they chose a home daycare provider over centre based care and also provide examples of the quality programming their child recieves in his/her private home daycare and the fact that their provider has CPR, police checks, safe and secure home, etc. They provided us with a hand-out at the meeting with some specific items they would like us to include in our letters...I hope that is will be posted on their website or emailed out so I can provide all of the list to you (it's a lot to type!). If we all band together and make our voices heard it is actually highly likely that we can make a change for the better! Please share this with everyone you know! I will post more information when I get it and please check CCPRN website for further information as well. Start asking parents if they can write letters, start writing one yourself, share with other providers. 80% of children are cared for in home daycares...we are the majority so we need to make our voices heard!

[SecondAve]

Is there anyway you could scan and upload the documents you were provided with? That way you wouldn't need to type anything for us to read. Thank you so much for posting this, I'll be sure to write a letter or two.


I attened a meeting through CCPRN last night about the proposed changed to the DNA in Ontario. There are several different proposals and we do not yet know which one the Minister of Education will go with. One of these proposals (not surprisingly put forth by an agency) is that private daycare providers be allowed a maximum of 4 children including our own, but agency providers could have 7 (only 3 of which can be under 4 though). The Minister of Education, Liz Sandals, has made it clear that she intends to remove incentives to remain private and try to have all of us licensed in some way (we do not know yet if it will be working through an agency or through some new type of licensing or accrediation program). The CCPRN has proposed having caregivers go through an accreditation process instead which would ensure that we have things like CPR, police checks, safe homes, and professional development/training. The main message at the meeting was that we need to have our voices heard! We need to write letters to the Minister of Education and the ADM of Education (I will post email addressed once CCPRN sends it out) and have our parents write letters as well. In those letters we need to give concrete examples of the quality programming that we provide that engages brain development in young children (apparently this is the new buzz word for the govt...LOL). Our daycare parents can write letters outlining why they chose a home daycare provider over centre based care and also provide examples of the quality programming their child recieves in his/her private home daycare and the fact that their provider has CPR, police checks, safe and secure home, etc. They provided us with a hand-out at the meeting with some specific items they would like us to include in our letters...I hope that is will be posted on their website or emailed out so I can provide all of the list to you (it's a lot to type!). If we all band together and make our voices heard it is actually highly likely that we can make a change for the better! Please share this with everyone you know! I will post more information when I get it and please check CCPRN website for further information as well. Start asking parents if they can write letters, start writing one yourself, share with other providers. 80% of children are cared for in home daycares...we are the majority so we need to make our voices heard!

[Judy Trickett]

Honestly, I don't think it's gonna matter. I have always said it is just a matter of time until the agencies get their claws into the powers-that-be and make us all regulated in some respect. I am not the sort of person to just roll over and not at least try to instrument change but in this regard I think it's likely a lost cause. One, agencies and lobbyist are pressuring government with statistics on child mortality rates in daycare. Yes, they are flawed stats (because a child is twice as likely to die in parental care than ANY type of daycare) but they don't see that. Two, agencies are BUSINESSES and they want more providers under their wings so they can make more money. And three, I don't think parents care. I think parents care what TYPE of care they have (centre versus home) but honestly, I think 90% of parents, if they were really honest, would rather have some sort of government institution telling their provider what to do.

I vehemently disagree with forcing all home daycare to be licensed. I think it's a load of crap. But it is what it is and it's been a long time in the works. I think WE, the private home daycare providers, are the only ones who are 100% against it. And there aren't enough of us, nor do we merit or warrant any sort of sway because we are looked upon as a NON-entity. It's sad, but it's true.

[playfelt]

Judy I have to agree with you. We will be licensed in some way in the very near future so instead of trying to get out of it we need to lobby for what sort of licensing model we want to see. This would be a good time for those in other provinces to share again what models are used in their provinces.

Actually if the agencies increase the number to 7 but keep the low ratio for preschoolers then it will mean they are over half full with school age kids and parents of infants have a hard enough time now with too many "big kids" in the home so they will flock to the smaller private homes. then because we provide a luxury of small ratio the rates can rise to at least what the parent would pay the agency plus a small ratio per diem and we just might come out ahead while doing less work - less kids.

I do see though that this only works for those whose own children are in school or older and not those looking to stay home with their own toddlers.

Having someone come to your house once a month does not make a caregiver more able to handle a larger amount of children so that argument is totally misguided.

If we are licensed we will also qualify for fee top ups and operating grants from the province so maybe there is merit. We just need to lobby for what kind of licensing we want. It will for sure weed out the providers that are only doing it temporarily, or not really committed due to the hassles of getting licensed and that too is good for us.

It is just the whole ratio/age mix that is the problem and for that we need to gather info from across the country and compare them to prove what can be done instead of letting them just pull numbers from a magic hat.

[Judy Trickett]

BTW, I think the changes are a load of crap and being pushed on home daycare providers for the sole pursuit of MONEY. Agencies just want us to all work for them so they can make more MONEY. Why else would you propose a change to have only 4 kids allowed in UNlicensed care (as opposed to the current 5 allowed) but suddenly be allowed 5 if you are with an agency? It doesn't change anything - the kids are STILL being cared for by ONE provider in a HOME. It's ALLLLL about money and what ticks me off is that they put it forth as if it is about the concerns for the children. BULLCRAP.

And all that's gonna happen in the end IF these changes go through is that daycare is gonna cost more. Sorry, but if I have to downsize by one kid I AM passing along that loss in income to the other 4 parents still in care.

It's gonna create a daycare shortage because lots of providers won't be able to meet the list of requirements (I can find the list. It's HUGE). And it is also gonna force a lot of providers out of business because they can not afford an income hit of one kid per year - $10,000. So, in the end it will create a shortage of daycare spaces and shortages mean increased fees.

The end result will be akin to tossing a sunfish into a pool of piranhas. It will be a damned free-for all with the experiences providers still in the game, charging WAY more for less work. And the parents will be the ones paying the (literal) price for it.

[playfelt]

Lee Dunster from Ottawa was crossing the country talking to providers and authorities while writing a book on home daycare - forgetting the name of the book right now but it is a still a great getting started read for home daycare.

She spoke at a home daycare conference here in Ottawa as the key note speaker back in 2001-2002 forget exact date - and I still remember a few of the things she said. One that comes to mind is in talking to someone from BC the authority was lamenting that too many "home" daycares were looking too much like institutional care and converting garages for their daycare and he was upset because he wanted them to have the homey feel - her comment was well when you instituted the rule that all rooms the child would be in had to have sprinklers in the ceiling of every room child went into that were connected to the smoke alarm system - well how can you expect providers to want water damage to their entire home every time they burn a piece of toast or broil bacon and the smoke alarm goes off - hence daycare goes out of the house to the garage.

Even then the ratios and number of children per home was being discussed by all levels of government so this is now over 10 years ago the conference was.

I see so many of the different daycare formats from the US as I belong to several yahoo chat groups and ratios, non-sensical rules etc. are often up for discussion. I would love to see a forum/meeting/working group that looks at what is happening in other places and compares them. Yes the ELECT report looked at childcare in a few countries but it picked the ones it wanted for it's document and didn't look at specifics for even our closest neighbours. We could use that information to lobby for what we want to see as a best case scenario.

[andreah1032]

how long do you think it would take if this passes... would it be a quick process it can't be a process that is quick to get all providers licensed...

[Judy Trickett]

how long do you think it would take if this passes... would it be a quick process it can't be a process that is quick to get all providers licensed...

Well, they have been talking about it for about 8 years now so who the heck knows. You know the government....things move slow as molasses.

[dodge__driver11]

Hey Ladies,

I know I am not in ON; but where I live (in the prairies) We are allowed to have up to 8 including our own this is with schoolagers, toddlers and infants. (the number changes with how your age group mixes)

Our province is incredibly lax about how they deal with over ratio providers...so much so that when you get reported, no one worries about it.... (I have one lady in my area with 12+ kids in her care) and to top it off if they can't catch you over ratio all they can do is keep coming. I used to stress thinking that I'd be in big trouble when they came to my door (I got a lot of false reporting before) when in reality all they so is count kids and go if nothing is amiss.

Though, I am extremely grateful that our province does not do agency care, and looks at private dayhomes as a credible option for care. Many lic. daycares/providers keep a list of private dayhomes recommending them if they are full...

It seems that the problems come from other private dayhomes...some playgerize ads, attack moms for taking the child to another home...write attack ads for providers they don't like...... Its sad.

I really hope that these changes don't suck as much as I think they will....

[treeholm]

I agree with Judy. If I have to go from 5 to 4 children, my rates will simply go up to compensate. It won't bother me to have less work LOL. Each family will pay 25% of my weekly fee instead of 20%.

[Judy Trickett]

I agree with Judy. If I have to go from 5 to 4 children, my rates will simply go up to compensate. It won't bother me to have less work LOL. Each family will pay 25% of my weekly fee instead of 20%.


I REALLY wish parents would care more and be more proactive about this. Because it will, ultimately affect them first and foremost. As I said before, and you have confirmed....instead of paying the $40 a day they now pay they will be paying $50 a day. That's an additional $50 a WEEK, or $2500 a year for the same care they get now. Daycare is like any other business, if the government controls the amount of product or service you can provide then the cost is inflated to reflect that. All the government is doing is causing a increased daycare shortage than there already is. And providers are gonna benefit financially with less work but the parents are gonna be paying through the nose for it.

[sunnydays]

I agree! This was the just of the meeting with CCPRN last night actually. Some kind of change is almost inevitable, but what the change will be is still undecided. If we rally together to push for a reasonable change such as teh accreditaion process put forth as a proposal by CCPRN, rather than being forced to work with agencies, we may have a chance to fight this. I know many many providers including myself would have to close down rather than work through an agency and/or have our number of children reduced. I think if we put it to our daycare parents that we may have to close out doors and they will not have daycare, they will be more than willing to write something in support of us ;) In fact, there was a parent at my table last night who was there because she does not want her provider's daycare closed down.



Judy I have to agree with you. We will be licensed in some way in the very near future so instead of trying to get out of it we need to lobby for what sort of licensing model we want to see. This would be a good time for those in other provinces to share again what models are used in their provinces.

Actually if the agencies increase the number to 7 but keep the low ratio for preschoolers then it will mean they are over half full with school age kids and parents of infants have a hard enough time now with too many "big kids" in the home so they will flock to the smaller private homes. then because we provide a luxury of small ratio the rates can rise to at least what the parent would pay the agency plus a small ratio per diem and we just might come out ahead while doing less work - less kids.

I do see though that this only works for those whose own children are in school or older and not those looking to stay home with their own toddlers.

Having someone come to your house once a month does not make a caregiver more able to handle a larger amount of children so that argument is totally misguided.

If we are licensed we will also qualify for fee top ups and operating grants from the province so maybe there is merit. We just need to lobby for what kind of licensing we want. It will for sure weed out the providers that are only doing it temporarily, or not really committed due to the hassles of getting licensed and that too is good for us.

It is just the whole ratio/age mix that is the problem and for that we need to gather info from across the country and compare them to prove what can be done instead of letting them just pull numbers from a magic hat.

[sunnydays]

The comparison of what is happening in other parts of Canada at least, is now being researched my CCPRN to use to help lobby for a positive change rather than the current proposals. It was brought up at last night's meeting. For example, in BC, the inidividual caregivers are licensed and do not have to work with an agency to do so. I would be all for a system that makes home daycares safer and more accountable and I have no problem having safety inspections, proving my CPR, police checks, professional development etc. I think these standards would be a good thing as there are some terrible providers out there unfortunately who are ruining it for all of us.



Lee Dunster from Ottawa was crossing the country talking to providers and authorities while writing a book on home daycare - forgetting the name of the book right now but it is a still a great getting started read for home daycare.

She spoke at a home daycare conference here in Ottawa as the key note speaker back in 2001-2002 forget exact date - and I still remember a few of the things she said. One that comes to mind is in talking to someone from BC the authority was lamenting that too many "home" daycares were looking too much like institutional care and converting garages for their daycare and he was upset because he wanted them to have the homey feel - her comment was well when you instituted the rule that all rooms the child would be in had to have sprinklers in the ceiling of every room child went into that were connected to the smoke alarm system - well how can you expect providers to want water damage to their entire home every time they burn a piece of toast or broil bacon and the smoke alarm goes off - hence daycare goes out of the house to the garage.

Even then the ratios and number of children per home was being discussed by all levels of government so this is now over 10 years ago the conference was.

I see so many of the different daycare formats from the US as I belong to several yahoo chat groups and ratios, non-sensical rules etc. are often up for discussion. I would love to see a forum/meeting/working group that looks at what is happening in other places and compares them. Yes the ELECT report looked at childcare in a few countries but it picked the ones it wanted for it's document and didn't look at specifics for even our closest neighbours. We could use that information to lobby for what we want to see as a best case scenario.

[sunnydays]

SecondAve, I will scan the document this evening (I have a child napping in my office at the moment and can't get to my scanner..LOL). I am not sure if it can be uploaded as a post or how that works? Anyone know how I can get a scanned document onto the forum?

[dodge__driver11]

I am part of another Childcare group and one of the ladies went to a information meeting where they discussed possible ministry guidelines in the way home daycares are ran. (Sunny days in this correct??)

These are the changes that may come about in ONTARIO

The proposed changes that are being made to the ministry:

Home daycare providers will have 2 choices, to become registered or to be licensed.

1) Registered or currently known as informal daycares

*Immediately reduce from 5 children to 4

*Make our own children under 6 count in the ratio

*pass a home inspection

*complete a min of 12 hours of training before being permitted to accept children

*not allowed more than 2 children under the age off 2

*not allowed more than 4 children under the age of 11 including caregiver’s own children (I think it’s our own children under 6, but that part wasn’t clear)

*participate in mandatory annual training

*display all training and certificates where parents can see

*we have to be registered with a licensing agency

2) Licensed or currently known as private (working in conjunction with an agency)

*allow up to 7 children under 11 including caregiver’s own children

*allowed 2 children under the age of 18 months

*plus all the other current stuff that comes along with working with an agency

*also note that possibly according to both options that if you have a child that is diagnosed with diagnosed behaviour issues or handicapped that child counts as 2 in the ratio.

Also included in the recommendations for the ministry to consider is developing a database. It would include the caregivers information, the information on the police records check, the information with the CAS check, and if the caregiver is registered or licensed. It would also include information such as serious occurrences, fraud, etc. Agencies and the ministry could report information to this database, and it could include such information as the agency deems that the daycare provider is unsuitable. Parents would have access to this information and would be able to ‘confidentially ’ report to it. This would allow the ministry to follow up on any information that is in the data base. The data base would be set up in a way that it would notify the ministry of caregivers they thought were ‘high risk’ and these caregivers would have even more restrictions or more inspections, again unclear as to what deemed high risk and how that would affect things. But I keep thinking for someone like me who has a CAS record would that make me high risk? My CAS ‘consequence’ consisted of a phone call warning me not to repeat the behaviour and that my file was now closed. I was completely innocent, but the CAS worker didn’t investigate the situation and gave me a warning and closed the file. But, will that now make life hard on me under the new system where the ministry will now have access to that closed file? Plus that closed file would be part of the registry and make it more difficult for me to find children?

Now the gov is being completely ambiguous, they will not say what their plans are, provide us with a time line or nothing. The won’t even comment on whether they are considering the above recommendations, etc.

So what the CCPRN is asking is that all of us, daycare families, future families etc write to the media, write to the ministry, write to their MP’s. The CCPRN is supposed to be sending the information to us today, so I’ll pass it along too. The would like us to use strategic communication plan. Home daycare has over 80% of the childcare spaces, so we should have the biggest word in the changes that affect us. We should write about the positive stuff, reasons why we don’t want to be licensed (not to include the money aspect of things), stuff like how we are reliable, accountable, we use the best practices, many of us have qualifications, etc. They would like parents to state why they didn’t choose centre care, such as wanting a family setting, smaller rations, keeping siblings together, etc.

[Artsand crafts]

instead of paying the $40 a day they now pay they will be paying $50 a day. That's an additional $50 a WEEK, or $2500 a year for the same care they get now. Daycare is like any other business, if the government controls the amount of product or service you can provide then the cost is inflated to reflect that. All the government is doing is causing a increased daycare shortage than there already is. And providers are gonna benefit financially with less work but the parents are gonna be paying through the nose for it.

I would definitely do that unless the government decides to cap our fees on top (as I heard it has been done in another province, I think is Quebec). In that case I will be forced to close, move on into another business or go back to work in my original field. It wouldn't make sense to stay in this business if it isn't profitable enough. If this is not managed well the government will have to start dealing with daycare shortages or an increase of very low quality care. All government rules can be follow, but still that doesn't ensure a parents will have quality daycare. We can see that in several licensed daycare centers now.

Sunny days I am for sure writing a letter and telling my families to do the same. Thank you for sharing this info.

[sunnydays]

Dodge, thank you for posting...that is exactly the info we recieved last night :) You are a more energetic typer than me I think ;)

[dodge__driver11]

np Sunny :)

I just copied and pasted lol

[momofnerds]

well the 2 and under doesn't make sense because all my kids are under 2. They go to school at 3.5or 4 yrs old so that would mean I wouldn't have any kids. Also, how can you classify your own older kids when they are in school all day. So in the summer I have to get rid of kids because mine are home.

also, I won't classify myself as a daycare, instead I will be a babysitter like all the rest of them on kijijji because its obvious that no one monitors babysitters.

[sunnydays]

I don't think it matters what you call yourself (babysitter or daycare provider) you would be subject to the same rules if you care for children in your home as I see it. And yes, if there can only be 2 under 2 and 3 under four, that would be enough right there to put most of us out of business as they leave for school by 4 and most of us cannot afford to provide school aged care.



well the 2 and under doesn't make sense because all my kids are under 2. They go to school at 3.5or 4 yrs old so that would mean I wouldn't have any kids. Also, how can you classify your own older kids when they are in school all day. So in the summer I have to get rid of kids because mine are home.

also, I won't classify myself as a daycare, instead I will be a babysitter like all the rest of them on kijijji because its obvious that no one monitors babysitters.

[Artsand crafts]

also, I won't classify myself as a daycare, instead I will be a babysitter like all the rest of them on kijijji because its obvious that no one monitors babysitters.

Hahaha...good idea :)



well the 2 and under doesn't make sense because all my kids are under 2. They go to school at 3.5or 4 yrs old so that would mean I wouldn't have any kids. Also, how can you classify your own older kids when they are in school all day. So in the summer I have to get rid of kids because mine are home.

Just that one would make me close too. I currently have enrolled 4 kids under 2 and I do not take kids over 18 months to start. Unless these 2 pay for the other 3 open spaces (which I doubt) it would stop making sense for me to be stay in business.

[momofnerds]

also, where are the moms going to bring their babies if no one can take them till are they going to up the enrollement at daycares.

[treeholm]

This could pose a huge problem for parents! I already have a waiting list for two new babies who won't be born until later this summer, and want care for September 2014. I wouldn't be able to accept them under the new plan. If many of us either close, or can't take any more one-year olds, where are the parents going back to work after maternity leave going to put their children? The government needs to re-think this...

[Trace of Angels]

Hi Ladies,

I attended the meeting last night......some of you may know me as "the BC lady" I have some opinions that I would love to voice but was a little flustered in front of the group last night. I wrote a long winded e-mail to the CCPRN today and I would love to share my thoughts with you so lets look at the facts.

1.The proposed changes put forth last night were from an "agency's viewpoint"
2. The only thing that the minister of education truly said is that they would like to make it less of an incentive for us to work without a license.

These are my feelings
1. Could there be some benefits to working within a licensed system that might benefit us all, caregivers, parents and children in Ontario
2. I am firmly against working under an agency and we need to stand up for our right as a self employed business that runs in our own property and home.
3. I believe that Ontario will do what is best for everyone involved, children, parents providers and small business owners. All of this is to their advantage.

Let's look at licenses. Doctors are licensed, nurses, hairdressers, you need a license to drive a car in this province and go fishing, but yet not to do a job that is of so much importance.......tea ch and raise children who needs a license to do that? How many times might you have said "wow you need a license to drive a car but not to be a parent, that is ridiculous"

Let's take hairdressing for example. They must have a license to cut hair BUT as a consumer I have a choice to go to "First Choice" get a $10 haircut or go to "Sage salon and spa" to get a $50 hair cut. Are they equal? Probably not. But at least as a consumer I am protected that walking into either place I know that the girl with the scissors has some kind of training and passed some certification before she puts those scissors in my hair.
We need a license system to protect our children, parents and providers to give them minimum standards and training to do this valuable job that we all do. The majority of us are doing this already but there are some that don't have the proper resources, support and training that could be given under a system and benefit families that can't afford "sage salon and spa" but would have a better rest knowing that their children are safe and their brains are being engaged.

Being a home daycare and being licensed in BC is much like putting your keys into your car. You must do it before the engine starts. It's the norm and it looks pretty great.
There are standards in place. Safety for all children, their homes are inspected for safety, for fire hazards, they are supported caregivers. The licensing agent visited and fined the ones not up to standard and left the good ones with some time between visits.

But with everything there are good and bad. Drivers good and bad but at least we know they can drive before they get on the road and have some basic training on the rules of the road.

With that being said I believe that CCPRN is on the right track in wanting to stand up and fight for our right to continue to be small business owners much like in BC.

We live in a free country and parents must have that choice for their child.
Lets stand up and be a voice and contribute to a system that would protect our most valuable resource.......our children. We want to give them the world but we aren't willing to protect them in their early years??????
Lets stand up and protect our rights to run a business in our home under minimum safe guidelines and training. Lets work with our province to make this wonderful.........I LOVE ONTARIO lets give them a little credit before we give them none........LETS HAVE A POSITIVE VOICE and ask for positive changes..........

[sunnydays]

I'm from BC too and had my oldest child in a home daycare there...so I believe something like that could work here too. It is the agency part and the resrictions on numbers that we are all against!

[Trace of Angels]

But the proposed changes and restrictions on numbers were brought forth only by agencies both who could benefit from it being that way and make a ton of money as well. The government has said nothing of number restrictions as of yet only the agencies have. Lets not jump the gun and get worried about something the government hasn't said yet and lets stand together and be heard and have a positive impact on any changes that come to benefit children parents and caregivers.........

[andreah1032]

that's what my husband keeps saying that it will cost the government a ton of money to license everyone, to inspect all the houses, that this might just be the agencies trying to use scare tactics to get the ball moving or to get things to go their ways, the government has only said make it less incentive for those who aren't licensed that was all that I heard on the news from them it's only in the agency reccomendation reports where it says we would all have to be licensed, would all have to work with an agency, number restrictions... but if CCPRN is thinking along the same lines maybe they know something else?
I wouldn't be able to stay open financially it just wouldn't make sense as I think most providers would also have to close what happens to all those kids, this can't be an overnight change it will take years for it to be fully implemented and by then there might be a new government who isn't interested in it.... I need to stop stressing about it since i can't sleep at night my DH keeps telling me that both the city and the govt have a 4 year plan of modernizing centre care and subsidized care nowhere does it say anything about informal care changes although that doesn't mean they aren't coming... i just wish they were more clear so I could get more sleep...

[sunnydays]

Andreah, I wouldn't lose sleep over this! It might end up that nothing changes or the changes may be quite minimal so that we just pay a fee to be licensed or something. The reason it would be apealing to the govt to force us to work with agencies is that it would not cost them anything as they wouldn't be licensing us...the agencies are licensed and they would make a ton of money out of us and hire more staff etc. It is true that govt moves slowly and then there is a govt change and things change yet again...who knows! I am not losing sleep over it, but I am doing what I can to have my voice heard and have a possible positive impact on how things turn out. I am not panicking or thinking of closing at this point. I think we all need to stay as positive as possible :)

[sunnydays]

I agree Trace! And by the way, I thought you did just fine at the meeting...I would not have been brave enough to stand up and speak ;) I am guessing you were the first speaker from BC as there were two in a row ?

[Trace of Angels]

Thanks Sunnydays :D

[eoinsmom]

I had no idea this all was going on in Ontario, but it's very interesting. I'll be watching to see what happens....I'm in Alberta and things seem to follow closely at times. I was with an agency, and now have left and been private for over a year. I took all my families with me, and they have all commented that they prefer me as a private business as opposed to their dealings with the agency. For example, one parent found them difficult around year end receipts - the agency said that they would not mail them out and parents had to pick up receipts at the office, which is only open 8-5....umm, parents all work during that time, that's why they use a dayhome! I also personally had some issues with the ridiculous rules the agency had in place around some of the home check items when they did their monthly visits, this ultimately led to me leaving the agency....and agency officials emailed all the parents telling them they would be better off staying with an "approved" caregiver rather than staying with me! IMO, being "approved" by an agency doesn't make you any better of a caregiver, I am a well educated adult who has chosen to run her own business. Providing quality care to children is not my only job, I also complete home assessments for individuals who wish to adopt, foster or provide other care to children. I maintain membership with the Alberta College of Social Workers, pay my fees, complete my continuing education....I would do all of that with my dayhome business as well if that was an option. But, I will not go back to an agency; they took $65 per child per month off my fees, and I got nothing out of the arrangement during my year with them - I advertised on my own and found all my own families, all of whom are still with me three years later. The only restriction we have as a private dayhome here in Alberta is that we can have six children in our care plus our own. This has not been an issue for me, however if they were to start putting in the age/ratio restrictions it would cause some havoc. Personally, I find it quite manageable to provide care to my group of 2 one year olds, 2 two year olds, and two three year olds; but this would not fly at all under agency restrictions.

[Momof4]

This entire subject makes me so upset. I pay close attention to it and will be happy to respond to the government and I'm sure my current families will respond as well if there is a form to complete. However, I am a renter and my home is an apartment in a century old home so I know it would never pass the requirements for an agency.

I can charge lower rates because my rent is low but if I'm forced to move to a more expensive, up to date apartment to stay in business my rates will have to go up. As people already pointed out, ALL of our rates will have to go up but some of us may be out of business if we remain in our current homes. I HATE the word BABYSITTER but some very smart person pointed out that if that's what we call ourselves we can get around the technicalities of running a quality home daycare. How sad is that? Very sad!

[sunnydays]

This entire subject makes me so upset. I pay close attention to it and will be happy to respond to the government and I'm sure my current families will respond as well if there is a form to complete. However, I am a renter and my home is an apartment in a century old home so I know it would never pass the requirements for an agency.

I can charge lower rates because my rent is low but if I'm forced to move to a more expensive, up to date apartment to stay in business my rates will have to go up. As people already pointed out, ALL of our rates will have to go up but some of us may be out of business if we remain in our current homes. I HATE the word BABYSITTER but some very smart person pointed out that if that's what we call ourselves we can get around the technicalities of running a quality home daycare. How sad is that? Very sad!

Well, I know I could pass all the requirements to be with an agency, but I am in the opposite boat as you...we move last year to a bigger house and I cannot afford to charge less or I won't be able to pay my mortgage. If I have to go through an agency I will not be able to keep my daycare running as I don't think I could start feedin the kids Kraft dinner and stop buying any materials or supplies for my daycare (I buy something almost every weekend for my daycare...whether it be art supplies, toys, books, etc). When I started out 2.5 years ago, I looked into going with an agency and they were going to pay me $33 per day per child and I would have to follow their 2 under two and 3 under three rule and my own kids would count in the 5 total kids. Well that is more than $10 a day less per child and I would only be able to have three kids (2 kids if the 4 total idea goes through). There is no way I can survive on that!
As for the babysitter idea..I still don't think that would work as a way to bypass the new rules. I think the rules will apply to anyone providing care in their own home. A babysitter usually goes to the kids' home.

[Momof4]

I'm sure the wheels of change will continue to move slowly and hopefully it will be many years before any of this comes to fruition, but the more we pay attention and make our opinions known the better. Thanks very much to all of you who were able to go out to a meeting and speak intelligently about quality home daycare providers.

Sunnydays, I know what you are saying. I buy organically grown foods to fee the daycare children. It's important to me to feed the children very well and that's my biggest daycare cost.

[briar_rose]

How would this work with townhouses? I thought that to be licensed you had to have a large house to have the maximum number of kids? I guess I'm just wondering if I can have less kids than the 4 (plus my own right) because I have a smaller house. This stuff is upsetting because I think if you try to raise your rates from $40/day to $50/day then people are just going to try to move to a centre because that's not far off from a centre price.

[Lou]

How can we follow this? Is there a website with updates, etc?

[sunnydays]

How would this work with townhouses? I thought that to be licensed you had to have a large house to have the maximum number of kids? I guess I'm just wondering if I can have less kids than the 4 (plus my own right) because I have a smaller house. This stuff is upsetting because I think if you try to raise your rates from $40/day to $50/day then people are just going to try to move to a centre because that's not far off from a centre price.

So far they are not proposing that we be licensed individually, but rather be forced to work with a licensed agency. If I am not mistaken, you already work with an agency, so there would not be a huge change for you as agencies don't have a space size requirement (at least not that I know of). The proposal was that private caregivers only be allowed 4 including their own while those working with an agency could have 7.

[sunnydays]

How can we follow this? Is there a website with updates, etc?

I wish there was something so simple! I will definitely post again if CCPRN sends out any new information, but that is the only way I am getting this info. Maybe someone else knows of a more direct source of info? I haven't checked the Ministry of Education website...I don't know if there is anything about it on there.

[Lou]

Thank you for posting the info, much appreciated!!! :)

[daycaremom9]

I'm located in the Lower Mainland of B.C. I went to a meeting last year presented by the Early Childhood Educators of B.C. They are advocating publicly funded daycare at a cost of $1.5 billion annually. I don't know if parents realize that means their taxes would be going up considerably. This group was trying to convince us ( mostly home licensed daycare operators) that our hourly wage would go up considerably and that we would become well respected childhood educators. I don't believe that this will come to fruition due to the immense money that would be required to operate such a system. Our local school cannot even afford playground equipment! Do any other provinces operate a similar set-up? If so, what kind of repercussions have developed from it?

[playfelt]

A link to this was on my facebook page this morning - Ontario providers stay tuned I guess.....

http://www.newstalk1010.com/News/localnews/blogentry.aspx?BlogE ntryID=10599335

[cfred]

Really, I'm not feeling too terribly concerned about all of this. They've been talking about it for years and really, wouldn't we all like to see some rules and enforcement in place? I can't help but think that something will be implemented, but I can't imagine we'll have to follow the same current restrictions as a daycare facility. Seriously....no longer being able to make a living at it, most of us would just shut down....and let's face it....don't we hold around 80% of the daycare market? I think some rules and standards would be a good thing, for those of us who are doing our jobs properly. Personally, I don't like that I'm lumped in with those idiots we see in the news. Rules and enforcement would eliminate that problem. I'd be happy to have inspections, thrilled to have someone come and take a look at what I'm doing, and over the moon to set my business apart from those who shouldn't be doing it. We need standards to live up to. Thus far, there really aren't any. I hold onto the hope that the powers that be understand the situation fully enough to see the big picture and try to work out a system that works for all of us. The working population of this province will be in a mighty unpleasant spot of the majority of daycare vanishes.

[playfelt]

I would like to share your optimism cfred but from what we are learning through our group here in Ottawa and their lobbying it is going to be an uphill battle for sure of an us vs them and we just might not come out on the winning end of it all. I get that we can threaten to just close and it will make parents mad but that isn't going to be helpful to us.

I think we were hoping the process would take a bit longer than it is. On the other hand the only changes proposed so far are ones that really do make sense and that is making one ministry a mandated reporter to another ministry if they see something that should be investigated.

[treeholm]

I admit I haven't paid too much attention, because I doubt anything will happen before I retire in August of 2016, so forgive me if I sound ignorant as to the complexities. In my other job, I'm a business professor. And the fundamental principle here is supply and demand. If the government forces home daycares to become licensed, and we all say, "forget it, too much trouble", who will look after all the children? It would be an economic disaster, unless the government is also planning to make sure there is a daycare space for each child in a centre. And we know, that many of our clients chose us deliberately because they wanted a home environment. So, that would take the home daycare business into the underground; something the government certainly does not want to see happen! So personally, I wouldn't worry. They have no control over our businesses. We are not civil servants, we are business owners. We can simply all close down and the Canadian economy will grind to a halt.

[playfelt]

Not sure staging a full out revolt has been on the agenda but for sure we have offered other suggestions to the ministry. Based on current feedback from the ministry I think we do have to take this seriously. But I am in the same situation as you treeholm in the sense of nearing the end of my career knowing that if I don't like the new rules I can pack it in. For those just starting out or who depend on the income as part of the family support they need to keep abreast of proposed changes for sure. I am totally basing my future on what is going to be expected of me and how soon it needs to be done. Hubby retires in March 2015 and I haven't decided what I am doing yet.

[cfred]

I wasn't so much suggesting that most would shut down in revolt. More likely, as would be my case, because it's not worth staying open if we can't make a living at it. Really, this is my sole source of income to support my family.....and no where near retirement. I just bought a home, so if it all goes to pot, I'm pretty much screwed. I would think that there would be lots others out there like me who simply won't be able to stay afloat following the same ratio regulations as larger facilities. It's simply not feasible. Nor can I afford to work for an agency who will so graciously skim 25% of my income. I would hope that this would be considered when coming up with some solution for the daycare problems at hand.

[sunnydays]

Playfelt, I couldn't get the link to work and can't seem to see it on the CCPRN facebook page. Do you think you coudl post it again?

I am trying not to worry...going about business as usual, but it is concerning. I am nowhere near retirement and had planned to keep going with my daycare for quite a few more years. I have invested a lot into my daycare and love what I am doing, but I could not afford to stay in business if forced to go through an agency or reduce the number of kids or count my own etc.

[playfelt]

I am hoping groups like CCPRN have been successful in convincing the ministry of education that the agencies are just whining and what should really happen is that they should increase their numbers to match those of independent care as well as lose the age restrictions since the ministry pulled an entire age bracket out of care. As well the DNA has never been upgraded to show that infants don't start care till they are a year old. It is one thing to be caring for two 6 month olds but different to be caring for two 18 month olds and yet by agency rules they are considered identical. I did get the impression in one of the debates I saw on tv that the agencies for sure feel even more threatened and that their days are numbered since if we go the registration route they will won't be needed. Will have to wait and see just whose influence was greater - although independent caregivers do hold a monopoly.

[playfelt]

Nothing for newstalk1010 is coming up for me today either. Maybe give a few hours or a day and try again.

[AmandaKDT]

What you are describing sounds exactly how it is in Manitoba, we have restrictions on age (no more than 2 under two) and if you are not licensed you can't have more than 4 kids under 12. And your own kids are always included in your numbers. There have also been talks of making things stricter and not allowing for unlicensed home daycare at all since it is unregulated.

I don't know... after the sometimes frustrating licensing procedure was finished I have had no problems with the whole thing. I am my own business woman, but I have certain regulations to follow, just like any professional business. I like being held accountable, when I decided to do daycare it didn't feel right to me unless I was licensed.

[playfelt]

Amanda are you licensed as an individual or do you have to join an agency? In Ontario there are agencies that are licensed and they contract with private home daycare providers for care. The agency collects the money from the parents and only gives the provider a wage that is about $5 - 7 less per child than they could make if they were private ie $25 a week less or $100 a month. The rate does vary by agency and city so if you are looking to join an agency do shop around. The agency sends someone to inspect the daycare in some cases monthly and in others every 3 months. There are restrictions to follow that are arbitrary ie go by age of child and not by development which is very frustrating for providers.

There has been some talk of a registration system for individual providers to be recognized and have a minimal set of standards they need to meet and most would be ok with that as there is only limited interference in the actual program each provider offers.