13 kids in care

[AmandaKDT]

I had posted a few days ago that I encountered two daycare providers at a local park that were each 3 kids over their limit. I didn't know who they were so it was impossible to report them.

So I went to the same park today and they were there again, as well as one women that I actually know who does home daycare too (I don't know her that well). I started talking to her and it turns out she herself is 4 over her limit and there a bunch of them that are knowingly over and they don't care - and neither do the parents apparently because I asked. I brought up how she is over her legal limit and she just shrugged her shoulders. But she told me that there is a lady in the area that has 13 kids in her care!

I fell conflicted by this all, with what to do with this information I have learned today. What do everyone think? What would you do?

[PattyCake]

Personally I wouldn't report any provider for going their limit if I knew about it. I do not commend it by any means, but I'd rather focus my time and energy on my own daycare.

[Sandbox Sally]

At what point are you an active bystander, though? That's the problem I have. If you know that someone has too many children in her care, and then something happens, would you feel responsible because you didn't do anything to ensure the safety of the children?

I had a problem last year where I regularly saw a provider at the park that would allow very small children out of her sight. I would have felt HORRIBLE if anything happened to the kids and I did nothing. You know what I mean?

It's not about getting another provider in trouble. It's a question of whether the kids are safe. As I say to the children I care for, "are you telling me to get Billy IN to trouble, or are you telling me to get him OUT of trouble?".

[Skysue]

For me that is hearsay and nothing concrete! As well perception is reality but not necessarily truth!

I think the bigger issue is why does it seem to be bothering you personally? Those 13 kids could be all part time etc... but that number does seem high!

I have 8 daycare kids all at the same time no! I know my legal limits and I aslo know what I can handle. I have had 6 at the park (my DD included) and I have had parents in awe of how well they play. P.S they are all under 5!

[playfelt]

It does almost sound like they have a don't ask/don't tell secret pact of some sort. That still doesn't make it right. I probably would call with the idea of confirming the numbers for care because I was at (and name the park and the time I was there) and it was obvious that several other caregivers at the park had at least whatever number of kids in their care. Then you can thank them very much for confirming the number of children allowed and that that is what you have in your daycare. At least you have given the information to them and really no one can say the call was to get anyone in trouble because nothing about what they will record as the complaint indicates that - it was all about confirming the rules. The fact you dropped the info they would need to find some people not in compliance is well just a bonus.

But I too would feel responsible if anything happened and I knew the event was taking place and did nothing to protect the children.

[AmandaKDT]

For me that is hearsay and nothing concrete! As well perception is reality but not necessarily truth!

I think the bigger issue is why does it seem to be bothering you personally? Those 13 kids could be all part time etc... but that number does seem high!

I have 8 daycare kids all at the same time no! I know my legal limits and I aslo know what I can handle. I have had 6 at the park (my DD included) and I have had parents in awe of how well they play. P.S they are all under 5!

I know for a fact that they were over their legal limit, I saw them with my own eyes (other than the one with 13 kids) and I know what the laws are here in Manitoba. It isn't necessarily the number of kids they have, it is that they are purposefully thumbing their nose at the law and it makes me worry about the welfare of the children. I myself am allowed to have 8 kids, but only because I am licensed. My home has been inspected, my references and background checked and I have a coordinator that can stop by at any moment unannounced to make sure that I am doing what I am supposed to. My home has been found acceptable and I have enough safe space for a larger number of children.

I have seen some pretty bad conditions in some private home daycares that I visited when looking for a child care spot for my older daughter when I was still working outside the home. I also found out after the fact that the home daycare provider that I did end up with had 8 kids some days (when she was only supposed to have 4) when my own daughter was in her care. I didn't know about it until after the fact and was unsure about the laws at that time so I didn't do anything about it. I really regret that now. But I took her out of that place as soon as I possibly could and she gets to be home with me now. Her home was not appropriate for that many kids.

So what bothers me is a concern for the children. I know that being licensed doesn't necessarily mean better care, because you unlicensed ladies are obviously responsible and caring - but you also make sure to stay within your legal limits. That is the difference. If they feel it is okay to take more kids than they're legally allowed, then what is necessarily keeping them from being irresponsible about things that affect the safety and well being of the children? Do they have proper insurance? Not likely since I know insurance providers don't cover private daycares in Manitoba for more than 4 kids.

[AmandaKDT]

It does almost sound like they have a don't ask/don't tell secret pact of some sort. That still doesn't make it right. I probably would call with the idea of confirming the numbers for care because I was at (and name the park and the time I was there) and it was obvious that several other caregivers at the park had at least whatever number of kids in their care. Then you can thank them very much for confirming the number of children allowed and that that is what you have in your daycare. At least you have given the information to them and really no one can say the call was to get anyone in trouble because nothing about what they will record as the complaint indicates that - it was all about confirming the rules. The fact you dropped the info they would need to find some people not in compliance is well just a bonus.

The problem is that they won't just send an investigator to the park, I called the other day to ask about it. They need to have a name and address in order to do anything (which I don't have, other than the one woman). Even though I told them they are there every day then won't do anything about it because they have to follow their protocol of sending a letter to their home first asking them to stop. No wonder so many are just doing whatever they want...

[Skysue]

My apologies I was actually referring to the 13. Why are you asking us what are thoughts are then? You have obviously made up your mind, call away.

[home]

You have mentioned that parents are not concerned about the number of children in care. The provider doesn't seem to be hiding things from her clients so there is not really much for you to do about it. Parents have made the choice to place their children in her care.

Sandbox Sally...your example is very different, you saw a provider neglecting children. Obviously she does not tell clients that she plans to ignore their children and put them in danger. They have not chosen to place their child with her knowing she would put them in harms way.

[Skysue]

Also how on earth do you know if there private or not?

[playfelt]

I get that you are annoyed that you have gone to all the trouble to get licensed and put up with the nonsense of home visits etc that in reality don't change how you do you job. If you can care for 8 kids then the other children at the park are not really in danger just because their home is unlicensed. The fact there is no insurance if there is an accident the parents are willing to overlook and the provider is willing to take the risk but that doesn't change the quality of care the kids receive from day to day.

[Sandbox Sally]

You have mentioned that parents are not concerned about the number of children in care. The provider doesn't seem to be hiding things from her clients so there is not really much for you to do about it. Parents have made the choice to place their children in her care.

Sandbox Sally...your example is very different, you saw a provider neglecting children. Obviously she does not tell clients that she plans to ignore their children and put them in danger. They have not chosen to place their child with her knowing she would put them in harms way.

It is different. Of course. In my earlier post, I referred to whether a provider (me, or the original poster) would feel responsible if something happened to one of the children in the care of an over limit provider. I said I would. Same thing as the provider who let the little ones wander out of sight. If I saw a provider at the playground, and she was three children over limit (or more!), and I said nothing, I would feel terrible should the kids be placed in harm's way and I did nothing to prevent it.

I was saying that it's a question that the op has to ask herself - would she be comfortable with her decision NOT to call if something happened to a child in the care of a provider who was caring for too many children?

[SongSparrow]

Do they have proper insurance? Not likely since I know insurance providers don't cover private daycares in Manitoba for more than 4 kids.

While I agree that there are terrible childcare situations out there, and I also agree that I would be upset to think there is a person out there with 13 kids in their care at one time, I don't see how whether or not they have insurance makes any difference in how safe the kids are? I know that I don't offer better care now than I did when I was uninsured. The insurance was for my own peace of mind :)

[cfred]

The problem with being over ratio and uninsured because of that, or being uninsured and within ratio is that IF there is a serious injury, no one's covered. If a serious incident takes place, resulting in parents having to leave work to care for a child or a child suffers long term/serious damage, I'd be highly skeptical of any parent just letting that go. I would think there would be legal repercussions in the form of formal charges, the business being shut down and a pretty serious law suit which would be paid for for the rest of the provider's life. We may all feel that we're doing the best that we can, and we are. However, things can happen that we never thought in a million years would. Wouldn't it be nice to be assured that if a child suffered a serious injury, the money is there for the family if they need it? If there's no insurance coverage, IMO, it's an incredible risk and not worth taking.

So far as those women having several children over ratio, I would report in a flat second if I knew for sure they were outside the legal boundaries. They are your competition and taking more than the legal and fair number of children prescribed legally, thereby potentially affecting your business growth. Play fair, play by the rules. Again, just my opinion.

[dodge__driver11]

I have mixed feelings about over ratio providers..When my son was little he went to an over ratio provider (I had no idea about ratios then) and her husband was there some of the time. DS always came home happy, well fed, and clean....

But since my exposure to lic and non lic. care along with false reporting... I would now report if I had proof and location.. :S

[momofnerds]

dumb question, but why wouldn't you talk to those providers and ask them point blank. I would and then you would know. I find it odd that they would bring that many kids out in public and with another provider.
I wouldn't call unless I had proof. I would not want to cause someone hardship if it is all heresay, I believe in karma lol!

[playfelt]

The problem with confronting is that once they know you are concerned about the ratios they will assume it was you that reported them and they could then turn around and do something that hurts your business.

[daycaremum]

I'm quite disturbed by how many providers are not concerned with other providers breaking the rules. I don't think I would report anyone, but it definitely would bother me that I am following all the rules and other providers are not. I do believe I am capable of taking care of more than the 5 children I am allowed, but I don't because it is the law.

[momofnerds]

when you start having that many kids, its not about the kids anymore its about greed. Its the greed of money. I would talk to these people, small talk, so who care if they know its you who calls, you shouldn't be worried unless you have something to hide. But just make sure you have some proof before you call. I think it would bother me also because she has so many kids and I'm trying to get some kids but because she has double the kids.