Tragedy at a home daycare in Vaughan, ON

[MonkeyPrincess]

This is so sad. I feel so bad for the poor child that died. I would like to know more about what happened, even though the story doesn't give too many details.

http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/toddler-dies-at-unlicensed-vaughan-daycare-which-has-been-ordered-shut/a1a0a23961eb6b7cdff6 308ee2c2fb25

[2cuteboys]

27 children at the home? That's excessive for a birthday party... I really hope they weren't all dcks.

So sad.

[Trace of Angels]

Did you read some of this story? There were 27 children in the home at 5:25 in the evening?????? How does anyone drop their child off to a home where there was 27 children??????

[Artsand crafts]

Did you read some of this story? There were 27 children in the home at 5:25 in the evening?????? How does anyone drop their child off to a home where there was 27 children??????

I ask myself the same question.

[Sandbox Sally]

Poor sweet baby. :( I really want to know what happened. They are saying that they shut it down because of health and safety/food related issues? It says that they are awaiting the results of a pathogen test? Hm. So much strange in this story without any details.

I hate when stories like this hit the news. It paints all of us with a wide brush. Most of us do things the right way, but as soon as Average Joe hears unlicensed, this kind of story is brought up. I get it, but I wish it were different.

[playfelt]

I was wondering if the child was eating something they were allergic to that no one knew about as that is what it sounded like in the sense of there seemed to be more emphasis on the food handling - think cross contamination than on the number of kids in the home.

[cfred]

I couldn't pull up the article. What happened?

[Artsand crafts]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/07/10/toddler_dies_at_unli censed_vaughan_dayca re_which_has_been_or dered_shut.html

[Judy Trickett]

I think the only good thing (if there can be any good at all) is that it doesn't seem that there was foul play here. One would assume that since foul play usually has outward signs that are pretty obvious that it was a horrific tragedy that just happened.

Poor kid.

But I do have to wonder.....can parents not COUNT? How loud is it with 27 kids in one house? I mean, I guess I find it hard to believe that the parents didn't know there were too many kids. At what point are the parents also responsible?

[cfred]

What a terrible story!!! That poor baby! I don't even know what to say about this. The family must be just be devastated.

Judy does raise a valid point, which I'm sure we're all thinking. 27 kids and the parents said nothing? And not that my home is a palace, but come on.....that house looks like it's poorly maintained just from outward appearances. It's the kind of place I'd bypass completely if I was looking for daycare. If they're that haphazard with first impressions, then what are they like when no-one's looking? I have to wonder how she got a daycare filled at all. What were the parents thinking?

Unfortunately, it's just one more incident to put a chink in our credibility as professionals. :( I so wish we could get licensing that is reasonable and will still allow us to earn a proper living. Then people like this provider would be out of the daycare pool completely.

[Sandbox Sally]

Unfortunately, with the waitllists as they are in the city for both daycare and subsidy, not everyone can afford to bypass such types of daycares. It's sad, but sometimes, it's reality.

[daycarewhisperer]

Unfortunately, with the waitllists as they are in the city for both daycare and subsidy, not everyone can afford to bypass such types of daycares. It's sad, but sometimes, it's reality. I think the main message is that if you can't afford quality care then having children is not an option. Think and plan for this before having kids.

[momofnerds]

What a terrible story!!! That poor baby! I don't even know what to say about this. The family must be just be devastated.

Judy does raise a valid point, which I'm sure we're all thinking. 27 kids and the parents said nothing? And not that my home is a palace, but come on.....that house looks like it's poorly maintained just from outward appearances. It's the kind of place I'd bypass completely if I was looking for daycare. If they're that haphazard with first impressions, then what are they like when no-one's looking? I have to wonder how she got a daycare filled at all. What were the parents thinking?

Unfortunately, it's just one more incident to put a chink in our credibility as professionals. :( I so wish we could get licensing that is reasonable and will still allow us to earn a proper living. Then people like this provider would be out of the daycare pool completely.

I was wondering about the house too, kinda looks abandoned. And look at all those garbage bags. And where would you put 27 kids.

[momofnerds]

somthing doesn't sound right. It says the food inspectors where there before for another issue. Why would they go to the house unless something happened before. Maybe they were under a companie like wee watch but claimed unliscensed???

[playfelt]

Were they actually operating a daycare centre as in several adult "teachers" and different kids in different rooms. That would account for the 27 kids and what parent is going to question if it is "licensed" when they walk in they just assume stuff like that potentially.

[momofnerds]

also the area looks like a subdivision, wouldn't the neighbours be annoyed by all the comings and going of 27 kids, the vehicles and where to park. I know my back up provider got called on when she started having lots of kids and the neighbours started to get annoyed with all the vehicles, she had 11 kids in her basement not including her own (they were at school)

[Sassygirl]

I completely agree! Where were all the other parents? How can you NOT know that there are that many kids? A couple over I can see not knowing but how can you not have clued in?
I just saw the news this morning and apparently this SAME provider was busted back in Nov 2012 for being caught with a total of 7 kids.

[bright sparks]

Were they actually operating a daycare centre as in several adult "teachers" and different kids in different rooms. That would account for the 27 kids and what parent is going to question if it is "licensed" when they walk in they just assume stuff like that potentially.

I think this theory makes the most sense. Neighbours wouldn't bat an eyelid if they just assumed it was a centre operated out of a residential home. With so little information available all one can do is speculate but it doesn't really get us any closer to the truth. I think Playfelt has probably hit the nail on the head.

It also explains the food inspectors going in. momofnerds wrote...
It says the food inspectors where there before for another issue. Why would they go to the house unless something happened before.

In a daycare centre, Health inspectors regularly go in and it has nothing to do with a "possible" situation, but just the standard annual inspection that is required. If an inspector goes in and other flags are raised, they would likely report it to their supervisor who would let the necessary department know. If they had been in previously and things were not legal, it would already have been shut down. Again really makes me think that this place was operating as a centre. It may have even been licensed and the reporting newspaper labelled it as unlicensed simply due to lack of information. We all know how the media likes to fill in the blanks any way they like.

I'd be interested in finding out the "true story" of what has gone down here. Aside from everything and regardless of the circumstances, it is a truly sad day for the child's family and my thoughts are with them.

[daycarewhisperer]

also the area looks like a subdivision, wouldn't the neighbours be annoyed by all the comings and going of 27 kids, the vehicles and where to park. I know my back up provider got called on when she started having lots of kids and the neighbours started to get annoyed with all the vehicles, she had 11 kids in her basement not including her own (they were at school)
And that was late into the day. There were most likely more kids that left before then. 50 arrivals and departures a day! Think about that. You would have to hire a full time receiver and get em out the door guy. My neighbors would flip with that kind of traffic

[playfelt]

"Unlicensed" to the media who does not understand the true meaning of the terms could simply have been used for a place that did not meet the requirements of licensing - ie not able to be licensed which we all know is not the same thing as those of us that are private unlicensed providers.

[abster]

But it also says that she was busted last year for having 7 kids which makes me think its a home daycare and not a centre..... I would pull my hair out with 27 kids lol.....

[Sandbox Sally]

I think the main message is that if you can't afford quality care then having children is not an option. Think and plan for this before having kids.

I am not defending the provider in this situation, nor am I defending the parents. I am saying that not everyone has access to quality affordable child care. Not only do some not realize how much daycare can cost, many do not realize that in some geographical areas, you have to search for daycare a year before you plan on using it.

I hope you are kidding about not having children unless you are well off. In Toronto, home daycares charge $50 to $80 dollars a day. What does that mean for a mother who finds herself single? What if she has more than one child? Are you saying that only middle class and above should have children? I am an intelligent woman whose first child was unplanned. It's not ideal, but it happens. I could not afford daycare, and were it not for the generosity and kindness of family, I don't know how we would have made it that first year. On my current salary and only having one child, I would be paying more than half my earnings to daycare. Without subsidy, how would I feed myself and my child? How would I pay my electricity and rent? As it happens, I have three children, not one. It's really not as simple as, "if you can't afford quality child care, don't have kids". Really.

[Sandbox Sally]

The reports are saying that this was an unlicenced daycare, so I don't think it was set up for inspections. As Judy said, at this point, it sounds like it might be a food cross-contamination/allergy situation.

I did read in one article that they've been investigated by the government in the past, but I think it stemmed from a complaint?

[Twinklefae]

I think the main message is that if you can't afford quality care then having children is not an option. Think and plan for this before having kids.

Did you seriously just say that? I'm well aware that this is my first post, but this board came up when I was googling for more news about this tragedy.

So really? What are the people who DIDN'T plan to get pregnant supposed to do? Starve to death trying to pay for care they can't afford. Subsidy lists are long and jobs can be scarce. Have you worked in this field long, because I pity the poor parents who come in contact with someone as judgmental as you. Do you make them sign paperwork that their children were planned before they can start with you? Because I am absolutely gobsmacked that you could even think that, let alone have the balls to post it on a message board.

Do you have any idea how many people you are offending? Do you even HAVE children? Or are you one of those people who knows that you'll be the perfect parent when you have children, even though you have NO IDEA what it's like to be there 24/7 for a little person.

I was kind of hoping that I'd found somewhere to hang around online when I found this board, but if people are going to let offensive, bigoted, prejudiced comments like this go without comment then this is obviously NOT the place for me.

[dodge__driver11]

You know (daycarewhisperer) I usually agree with you, but in this instance I don't. My child was not planned in the least...In fact I was on bc pills. When I got pregnant I had only been seeing my now husband for 3 months, I know you have at least one child because I have seen you post about him on Facebook. So I cannot believe you typed those words.

And guess what? We didn't have everything when he was born, but we tried our best...He went to a SAHM who charged $25.00/day, but she treated him kindly and he was happy there.

And even though we make over 100 K a year, would I be able to afford daycare now, no..sadly... (If I had to I would do something though I am sure---). And I have medical needs...Not because I don't love my kid, but because my husband is drowning in student debt that he had to accrue because his family didn't plan...yet they are very kind for the most part...

Would I change anything, not for the world, dealing with ds has made me more aware of the gaping holes in the system and the lack of support that exists when you are parenting and have a disability...(And I do not mean monetary)

Does the lack of "cash" make me a bad parent. no. Absolutely no.

I am shocked.

[Crayola kiddies]

I think our governments are to blame because the amount of money people get on social assistance is astronomical .... And the more kids they have the more money they get... And if they work well that gets deducted from their cheque so why even work and if you do decide to work well they pay for daycare as well and prescriptions and rent, utilities, .... the lust goes on and on ....so on .... I know some people who are raising third generation welfare kids and then they kick out the boyfriend because they realize that as a single mom they get even more money and free babysitting every other weekend so they can go out and party .... There seriously needs to be something done about our social assistance program ... Like maybe you only get a fee ride for a year then pay for the life you created.

[dodge__driver11]

You have no idea how much I agree and can relate to this Crayola.... long before I had ds, I drew assistance for a bit, and they paid me more to stay home and do nothing, my rent was paid, my meds, my bus pass, my utility bills, my phone, and food and I got $1000.00 with that because I was a person who was disabled....

The social worker was surprised that I even wanted a job, but I pounded the pavement and worked as hard as I could, even if it meant 2 jobs, long hours and eating kd forever.... The social worker just couldn't fathom why I'd give "the comfort of the system up."

But here's the kicker I wanted to work....I hated the idea of someone paying for me...

[jammiesandtea]

Well, I have to agree with daycarewhisperer. It is not our Governments' job to subsidize the raising of our children, unplanned or planned.

Also, affording the cost of quality child care comes down to priorities, plain and simple. We all need to determine where the cost and quality of our child care ranks in our list of budget priorities. If it ranks lower than nice cars, iphones, designer clothes, vacations, etc... then it's not that you "can't afford" quality child care. It's that you choose not to, because you've prioritized other things above it.

Now excuse me while I go put on my armour and protective gear, because I realize I am likely about to get battered about by some of you, lol. It's ok, I can take it. :cool:

[dodge__driver11]

I agree with you to a point Jammies, not not all of us that had "oops babies" were driving a Lexus, playing with our i pads, and expecting help from the system..Heck when I was pregnant I shopped at sally ann, had a black and white tv, and took the bus.. And I didn't start demanding help from the system either.....We did the best with what we had...

[playfelt]

At the same time quality care means lots of different things to different people. A nice old lady who cuddles and plays with your child and charges just enough money to pay for the child's food and a treat for herself can still be quality care. It is all about the parents taking the time to find the right person. Paying more doesn't mean getting better care.

[momofnerds]

the article appeared on yahoo. I responded, I got tired of being called cheap. And many that responded had no idea what unlicensed daycare means.
Now this incident happened at 530pm, I have a feeling this was a daycare that also operated around the clock too, I wonder if she was charging hst too (anything that provided 24 hour care you must charge tax)
also if she was busted for 7 children then why would she have 27 children. I think there was something else there too.
and how can 27 parents be so nieve that they didn't realize so many kids, unless and I mean unless she was claiming herself as a daycamp---I wonder if there are other laws with it.

[jammiesandtea]

At the same time quality care means lots of different things to different people. A nice old lady who cuddles and plays with your child and charges just enough money to pay for the child's food and a treat for herself can still be quality care. It is all about the parents taking the time to find the right person. Paying more doesn't mean getting better care.

I agree with you, playfelt. Quality care is not necessarily dependent on being highest cost. But it's the job of the parents to seek out the type of care that they wish to have for their child, and monitor it that it remains safe and suitable to them, and also to pay for it. It's the notion that the Government (which is paid for by the rest of us, taxpayers) should subsidize child care that I disagree with. In certain low-income/single parent situations, a short term period of subsidy to re-train for adequate employment is warranted. But it's not the Government/taxpayers responsibility to pay the cost of having children. It's the child's parents' responsibility, and if that means re-prioritizing the budget to live within our means so as to be able to pay for child care, then that's what we do.

[Twinklefae]

Jammies,

Here's the thing, a sensible gov't WILL subsidize quality child care because it is their responsibility to all of us. Eventually those kids grow up and I know that I want the person wiping my rear in the nursing home to have had quality education and caring from a very young age. The more the gov't puts in, the more we all get out. Statistics show this time and again.

And while yes, some people are just looking for the best 'deal' on childcare, as a rule parents want the best for their kids. For some that will mean keeping more money in the family account. I think education on the difference quality care can make is the way to go, not punishing parents.

[Sandbox Sally]

I am wondering what those of you who think that you shouldn't procreate if you're poor expect people to do. I am going to, for a moment, disregard that you are being elitist for a moment, and focus on what someone should do, then.

It is not about expensive phones and fancy clothing coming before daycare, it's about paying for food and shelter and electricity. Do the math. You absolutely NEED a six figure income or two fairly decent incomes in order to afford child care. It is completely unrealistic to think that every family in Toronto is in that economical position.

[Sandbox Sally]

And yeah, it kinda IS the government's responsibility to provide social programs for families. It's part of the reason we pay taxes. We are a society. We share certain mutual responsibilities, and part of that is ensuring that, as Twinklefae said, we take good care of the generation that will be in charge of caring for all of us in our old age.

[Crayola kiddies]

Well I don't believe that I pay taxes so someone one welfare can walk around the town in their pajamma pants all days. Why should I bust my ass just to pay for someone else's kids? Really?? Not my responsibility ! my responsibility is to take care if the children I brought into this world. I don't think that's was what was meant when they say "it's takes a whole community to raise a child." But this is JMO and I know may others don't agree but our country is in a huge deficit and they need to cut back on the social assistance program and force these people out to work ..... i see help wanted signs and now hiring signs every where in my city. I believe if the social assistance program was not as lucrative as it is then people (teenagers/young adults) would think twice about bring a child into the world that they are clearly not prepared for.

[bright sparks]

Everyone plays their part in society so if everyone had the attitude of "not my responsibility" then the problem would only get worse. In order to prevent these types of problems in society we ALL have to play a part. Just the bad attitude towards people on welfare and shunning of these people makes the situation worse. Plus, don't begin to think you know what it is like to walk in someone's shoes just because you( not meaning anyone in particular) may have had your fair share of struggles and were fortunate enough to beat the odds. That person walking down the street in pj's labelled as a "bum" living off social welfare, taxpayers money, may have a degree, have owned a home and at one point experienced a traumatic event which made them lose control of their life resulting in mental health issues etc etc. This is the case so often. The young people " having children without thinking" may not be educated enough to make these decisions for themselves, have grown up in the same circumstances and were not able to break that cycle. To them it is the norm, and struggle is actually an easier concept for them to grasp as a lot of the times they don't think that things are any different. Their role models may be the adults who have done nothing else but live off social and have baby after baby. Each person plays a role and while the people making the mistakes must be accountable for their actions, just because you know something is not okay, doesn't mean you are either equipped with the knowledge to inflict change in your life, or are even able to make the change. Anyone with background in behavioural and developmental psychology knows that it is easier said than done. It's a process and without the resources readily and constantly available to people when needed, change will struggle to occur.

Don't kick a dog when it's down, don't do everything for a person so they are unable to care for themselves, teach them and they will learn to rely on themselves.....the problem is psychosocial development in the earliest stages of life are what build a strong productive human being or a rocky foundation which churns out people into early adulthood and beyond, ill equipped to make the correct choices for themselves and their children and who are not mentally capable of choosing a productive path to take.

I read somewhere once, " It's easier to build up a child than it is to repair an adult. Chose your words wisely." So true....criticism is not productive and is actually a big part of the problem. Positive reinforcement is what tends to incur change in societies not negative reinforcement. Everyone knows that if you tell someone they are a bum for long enough they will eventually believe themselves at which point, damage is done and there really is no incentive for change.

[bright sparks]

I am not saying that what happened is okay by any means, or that people should not be held accountable or pay for their crimes. What I am saying that wagging our finger at certain people does not help the situation in the slightest, it makes it worse.

[jammiesandtea]

I agree with you, Crayola. I believe in short-term safety net type of programs for people to re-train for the workforce and/or acquire a better paying job to support themselves and their families, but it's not my responsibility nor the rest of the taxpayers, to subsidize anyone else's choice to have a family.

I believe that if you cannot afford to have a child and pay for their care and upbringing easily, then either don't have any, or in the case of unplanned children, then the solution is to pare your budget down to basics, move from an area if the cost of living is more suited to people with incomes higher than yours, etc... NOT to expect the Gov't to support you. The belief that taxpayers owe everyone a living, and endless social programs to make everyone's standard of living "equal", is called socialism. And yes, some believe strongly in that model of society, but many others do not. We believe in personal responsibility. Dr. Phil uses a quote that sums it up somewhat crudely but effectively: "Ya eat what ya kill".

In my opinion, the more important "mutual responsibility" we share as a society is to educate and encourage people to support themselves and their families, and to discourage reliance on "everyone else" to subsidize their lives and their choices. Having children is a responsibility. And no, having children if you're poor and unable to care for them is not "responsible", nor is it a "right". If one finds themselves in that position, with an unplanned child and insufficient income, the responsible thing to do is use short-term assistance if necessary to upgrade yourself and your options, not whine to the taxpayer to permanently fill in where you're deficient.

[jammiesandtea]

Also, just to be clear: I am NOT saying people who aren't well-off shouldn't have children. My parents and many of their friends, relatives, etc were not well-off when they had their children, but they did the best they could with what they had... they didn't rely on the Gov't and taxpayers to fill in those gaps.

Children can be raised very well on limited means... it's all in what you prioritize.

[Sandbox Sally]

I didn't say anything about welfare, but I adamantly disagree with you on that, too.

I am talking about subsidized child care. Pretty much everyone who makes less than $70k qualifies for it around here. Daycare costs are crazy.

Why do you hate the poor? What's with the chip on your shoulder? Why should you pay for other peoples' children? Do you get baby bonus or universal tax credit? Where does the money come for that, do you suppose? I am guaranteeing that some of it comes from people who don't even have children, but as we choose to live on the grid and in a society, we all choose to pay for the collective good of our society. Do your children go to school? Do you pay for private school? Because if they go to public school, I guarantee you that my aunt and uncle who are childless help pay for them to go to school. You are missing the point. It is our job as a collective to raise each generation, not single handedly by any means, but a little bit from each, as a COLLECTIVE GROUP.

And those who are stuck on the point that if you cannot afford quality childcare without subsidy, you shouldn't have children, what if your awesome ideal utopian circumstances suddenly change? Even if you can easily afford quality daycare when you get pregnant, that's no insurance that you'll always be able to afford it. Any family can experience job loss, death of a parent, divorce, or insurmountable medical bills or condition that make them unable to afford things they never thought they would have to do without.

I continue to be appalled at the attitude that so many of you feel that it's "not your problem" and can so easily turn your backs on the most vulnerable in our world.

Again, I went to school for four years. My potential income does not exceed $20 per hour. Should I then go back and accumulate extra student debt, which I can barely afford now? And for what? Can you lead me to a degree that will have me out and working to support three children on one salary, up to and including daycare, food, utilities, loan payments, rent, gas and clothing? Or should I hand over my kids to Children's Aid now? Or should I shack up with some random so that s/he can pay half the bills?

Your expectations are prejudiced and unrealistic. I can't believe I am reading this.

[Sandbox Sally]

Also, just to be clear: I am NOT saying people who aren't well-off shouldn't have children. My parents and many of their friends, relatives, etc were not well-off when they had their children, but they did the best they could with what they had... they didn't rely on the Gov't and taxpayers to fill in those gaps.

Children can be raised very well on limited means... it's all in what you prioritize.

But that's exactly what you are saying. So take Toronto as an example. Who's paying for me to move from downtown to the suburbs? Where in the suburbs can I get a place to suit my budget? Or, should I just move to another part of the province, or maybe to a different province? Last time I looked, smaller towns don't pay as much as city centres for the same jobs. They also don't have the economy to support the jobs if we are forcing the poor people out of the cities. What does that mean?

I work a $20 per hour job. Awesome. I am single. I have three children. My take home pay is 2700 per month. Let's say the two same gendered kids share a room. My son has his own room. I sleep in the living room. The average rent in the city or Etobicoke, or North York, or Scarborough or even further out for a two bedroom apartment is $1200 dollars. We need to eat. That's $600 per month. We need heat and lights. That's $200 a month, minimum. I have to get back and forth to work. So let's be generous and say it only costs me $10 a day to commute to and from work. there's another $200 a month.

I now have $500 a month left. oh wait. I have three kids' daycare to pay for. Let's see...3 times $35 per day equals, what? $105 per day, times five days a week. That equals $525. A WEEK. I have $500 left for the MONTH.

I don't have a phone. I sure hope nobody needs an ambulance. I don't have internet, tv, and I haven't paid for clothing, haircuts, haven't taken my kids to the movies or paid for their class trip. I haven't bought any cleaners or laundry soap. It sure would be nice to have some daycare subsidy money right about now.

What do you suggest I cut out? Do you get it now?

[jammiesandtea]

Well, this has gotten pointless because it's now just arguing between completely different political and personal points of view that are extremely unlikely to be changed in a conversation such as this... but since you asked: If those are someone's circumstances, I think A) 3 children are beyond what can be responsibly afforded... and B) If they were brought into the world under different circumstances ie: when there was a relationship with another income provider/their father... then HE should also be contributing to their support, which would change those budget amounts.

At the end of the day, we are each personally responsible for our own choices and the little people we bring into the world. It behooves us each to examine WHO we choose to bring little people into the world with, as well, before doing so.

I do not, and will not, subscribe to the notion of "poor me, I need the rest of society to pay for my choices". Genuine disability is a different matter altogether, and is not a choice. I believe all decent compassionate people believe in taking care of the truly vulnerable members of our society.

But PARENTS need to take full responsibility for the children they bring into the world.

[Sandbox Sally]

Wow. Really? Now we are supposed to foresee our husband leaving and not paying support? What if he died? Oh, it's ok if you're disabled, ok. But not if you've been laid off? This isn't a matter of political points of view. It's about being realistic. Tell me, in the scenario with the money I outlined, what would YOU do? Your husband left and you can't find him. Should you hook or drug deal before turning to your "handout" in the way of child care subsidy? Because, of course, it's your own fault he left, because you should have chosen a better mate. :confused: THIS makes me nauseous, to think that anyone thinks an abused woman deserves to be penniless because of her choice of mate.

And, again, you mention that if you can't afford the daycare, then you should not have kids. What if you already have the kids? Do you...what? Give them up for adoption? You are not thinking clearly. You are thinking from a position of privilege.

ETA: I hope your kids don't attend public school. Because if they do, under your watchful eye, you should probably pay back all the childless couples you're mooching off of.

[jammiesandtea]

I am not thinking from a position of privilege. I am thinking from a position of personal responsibility. If one's husband passes away, there are funds sent monthly from his CPP that would fill the same gap that support is normally meant to fill.

Again, I stated before, for short term issues like lay-offs or the need to re-train, I am all for temporary programs to help people get on their own feet in a more stable position.

If you have 3 kids and your deadbeat husband left and does not pay support, and you're not qualified to bring in an adequate income and have no interest in re-training, then my suggestion would be to open a home daycare. No daycare fees for your children, and you can make a half decent living for your family. Problem solved. ;)

[Sandbox Sally]

Neat and tidy. With a bow. Not everyone is cut out to run a daycare. You have no idea what you're talking about. YEAH, you're talking from privilege. Why is it ok to take the CPP stipend for a dead husband, but not ok to take daycare subsidy? You aren't making any sense.

[jammiesandtea]

Neat and tidy. With a bow. Not everyone is cut out to run a daycare. You have no idea what you're talking about. YEAH, you're talking from privilege. Why is it ok to take the CPP stipend for a dead husband, but not ok to take daycare subsidy? You aren't making any sense.

Because CPP survivor benefits are not handouts paid by taxpayers, they are payments that the deceased PAID INTO over their working career, and would have been paid to them upon retirement. Instead, their surviving spouse and minor children receive that money that was EARNED.

And I am done with this conversation. You are entitled to your opinion, even if I think it's unfortunate, and based on a socialist, welfare-state mentality. We will just have to agree to disagree. Have an awesome rest of the day! :)

[Sandbox Sally]

Oh. And working people don't pay income tax or any other taxes? Is daycare subsidy a handout? It's given to WORKING FAMILIES who all pay taxes.

If you are comfortable enough tell me that I am a socialist and have a welfare-state mentality, I will feel comfortable saying to you that your ideas are based on prejudice, hate and ignorance, and a me-me-me mentality.

And I hope you have a super duper day too! :thumbsup:

[dodge__driver11]

Well I am socialist leaning with some conservative view points, I guess Jammies and I would be on opposite ends of the floor, now wouldn't we?

[Crayola kiddies]

Umm Sally don't you run a daycare? Or were you just stating a scenario for the average person ? As I said I believe the social assistance system should only be for a limited time. I don't hate poor people , hell I'm not far off from it....I don't have a big fancy degree hanging on my wall and so when I need to put three kids in daycare I said not way and I opened my daycare .... I don't have to pay gas to commute, don't need a special wardrobe, and I'm here for my kids when they get home from school and I bring in an income ......yes I send my kids to public schools and yes I am aware that people who don't have children in the school system still have to pay for it in their taxes ... I don't agree with it... Yes I get child tax credit but this is what I'm trying to say.... Almost all parents qualify for this but then the government is continuing to hand out more money in the form of welfare, subsidized housing, reduced utility rates, and the list goes on .... My mother raised three kids by herself with no support .... She worked two jobs! I was a single mother for a few years and I worked my ass off at my minimum wage job and oh by the way minimum wage was $8.50 I think at the time ....I've been there, done that and not knowing if your going to make all the bills at the end of the month is not fun. But I'm not a hater or an elitist living in an idealistic world but I do abhor people that sit on their ass all day collecting welfare and many other breaks while I bust my butt trying to make a life for my kids.....

[playfelt]

Everyone who works gets CPP not everyone one gets other government handouts including parents with special needs kids - some of us didn't qualify for anything while others got $10,000 a year and installed a Jacuzzi tub under the guise their child needed it - just saying.

[sunnydays]

I have already embarked on exactly this arguement on this forum some time ago with another member, but just wanted to lend support to Sally here. I agree with everything she has said. I would hazard to guess that Jammies sends her kids to public school, takes them to publicly funded doctors and hospitals when they are sick, drives on roads built and repaired by tax dollars, recieves her child tax credit and does not send it back, etc. Heaven forbid she ever find herself in the unfortunate situation of a relationship turned sour, a cheating husband who takes off and refuses to pay child support...or worse an abusice husband who needs to be fled from. The thing is, we all pay in the end when kids ar enot properly cared for in their early years and do not recieve healthy food, learning opportunities, etc. Is it the kids' fault that their parents are in bad circumstances (whether or not it is their fault)??? When these kids suffer in substandard care because their parents can't afford daycare, and then grow up to become criminals...then what? I am guessing, you will say build more jails...of course...more jails, more police, lock them all up...for which we also pay with our tax dollars. Wouldn't it be simpler and more peaceful and less expensive to help struggling families afford quality care for their kids so they get a good start to life and become contributing members of our society instead of criminals?

[Sandbox Sally]

sunnydays. Thank you. You just said everything I think, but more eloquently.

crayola, yes I run a daycare. I have never been on government assistance, nor have I ever received daycare subsidy. These are hypotheticals, and I see them all the time.

The answer can't always be, "just open a daycare". Some parents are NOT CUT OUT to work with children as a career. That is the plain hard truth. I am sick to death of people being bootstrappy about how other people should live. I pay taxes too. I paid into EI and CPP, neither of which I will likely ever receive. I pay taxes that go toward programs in which I will never participate, but I most certainly don't think that the government should do away with those programs, because I personally don't need them.

Daycare subsidy is no more a handout than Child Tax credits. Give your head a shake. It's ok to take THAT particular government benefit, because "everyone gets it"? I know plenty of people who make little more than we do who do NOT qualify for CTC. I know plenty of people who have two incomes and work 50 hour weeks with university educations who qualify for child care subsidy. It's not a handout. We ALL pay into it. ALL of us. You don't get to say where my tax dollars go. Hope that helps. :)

[Sandbox Sally]

Some special needs kids DO need jacuzzi tubs. Just saying.

[Crayola kiddies]

Well basically all I was originally saying was that with the current level of social assistance programs out there it seems to encourage young people to have kids because its a meal ticket .... They don't have to work and everything is handed to them free or almost free ... That'll what I was trying to get at .... Not about paving roads and private schools .... But about kids purposely having children to get the subsidies !!!! That's all !!!!! Oh by the way my first husband was abusive too !!!

[Sandbox Sally]

I can't imagine anyone having a child to collect the meagre amount welfare gives a person to exist on.
There are no extras.

And by the way, according to jammies and tea or whatever her name is, we should have picked our mates better, because if we needed help, it's not up to her to help us if we are leaving abusive men. I cannot roll my eyes enough at that way of thinking.

[Crayola kiddies]

I Know two sisters who each had a child they both kicked out the boyfriends. They both receive welfare, subsidized housing, reduced utility costs, free prescriptions, subsidized daycare, they both have cars, they never miss a weekend of partying according to the Facebook photos, they both smoke, and they went to the Dominican a few months ago .... I've only ever been to Florida and I'm more then twice their age. And then they post on Facebook how the government screwed them again by not changing their marital status and they didn't get the added money !!! Really??

[sunnydays]

We all know there are people who abuse the system...any system in fact...that is true. However, what you are saying is that because of those people, we should do away with the help for people who truly need it. I was once a young single parent (I became pregnant while on the pill...my pregnancy was not on purpose and I knew nothing about daycare subsidies or welfare really), was once on welfare, and needed a daycare subsidy as I put myself through university and earned a BA while raising a child alone. If I had not had the help I recieved, I would not be where I am today. I have a degree, I grew a career, I own a beautiful home and now have two more beautiful children and am lucky to have a wonderful man by my side. I have never gone back to welfare since the year I was on it. It helped me get through an extremely tough time and to provide my son with a stable home and high quality daycare while I put myself through school. He has now graduated from high school and will be going to university in the fall. I am still paying my student loans bit by bit. I am very honest, have never cheated the system, have never taken advantage of anything to get something I didn't deserve. If I had not had access to a subsidy for daycare (I still paid a portion), I would definitely not have been able to put myself through school and would actually not have been able to afford going to work either as I would be making minimum wage. Sooooo, I would have had to stay on welfare until my son started school full-time (I lived in BC at the time so that would be 6 years old). And then and would probably have become so demoralized and out of the working world and studying world...I don't know what I would have become or how I could have bettered my life and that of my son. I KNOW my son deserved the life I have given him. I also KNOW other kids deserve the same and their parents deserve a chance to try an better their lives by studying or working and the only way they can do that is by having subsidized daycare. I would rather put my tax dollars there even knowing that some people may abuse the system. It is worth it for those who truly need it (and there are many). All kids deserve the kind of life I was able to give my son because of the availability of daycare subsidy. And do you think it encouraged me to have more kids and sit on my butt? NO! I did not have more kids until 13 years later when I had a solid relationship, solid career and owned a home and was good and ready. And I actually personally know others who, like me, made use of subsidies to better their lives and those of their children. I KNOW my son is growing to be an upright, caring, wonderful member of society who will contribute great things. To say that I should not have had him because I couldn't afford daycare is actually sickening to me.

[Artsand crafts]

I Know two sisters who each had a child they both kicked out the boyfriends. They both receive welfare, subsidized housing, reduced utility costs, free prescriptions, subsidized daycare, they both have cars, they never miss a weekend of partying according to the Facebook photos, they both smoke, and they went to the Dominican a few months ago .... I've only ever been to Florida and I'm more then twice their age. And then they post on Facebook how the government screwed them again by not changing their marital status and they didn't get the added money !!! Really??

I know someone like that, but is a mother and daughter instead. They used to live in a very rough area each one with their own apartment through welfare. She explained that somehow they put both their cases together and now their apartment rent allowance increased. Currently they live together in a nice area, in an ample, bright apartment with a nice view. When we went to visit the daughter to their new apartment she announced she was pregnant with her 3rd child!!... She (I don't know about the mother) also travels to South America once or twice a year according to her Facebook photos and comments. She just came back a few months ago from Ecuador and now she is announcing she is going to Cuba soon... My husband and I sometimes joke that we should just quit our jobs, get divorced and go right after welfare and get together just for the weekends... We haven't been out on vacation since I was pregnant 3 years ago. It even took us 10 year after getting married to decide starting a family because among other things didn't feel we were financially ready... I think the problem is that if there aren't proper rules and a system in place for welfare there will always people that will abuse it... I agree that there are the ones that really need help, but if the government just trust in the "integrity" of people we will just end up hearing a lot of histories like this.... Imagine if an epidemic of this thinking starting to spread... There would not be anyone funding the system and we all end up in extreme poverty, and then we all would have to get back to work if we were lucky after crashing the economy that way.

[Crayola kiddies]

We all know there are people who abuse the system...any system in fact...that is true. However, what you are saying is that because of those people, we should do away with the help for people who truly need it. I was once a young single parent (I became pregnant while on the pill...my pregnancy was not on purpose and I knew nothing about daycare subsidies or welfare really), was once on welfare, and needed a daycare subsidy as I put myself through university and earned a BA while raising a child alone. If I had not had the help I recieved, I would not be where I am today. I have a degree, I grew a career, I own a beautiful home and now have two more beautiful children and am lucky to have a wonderful man by my side. I have never gone back to welfare since the year I was on it. It helped me get through an extremely tough time and to provide my son with a stable home and high quality daycare while I put myself through school. He has now graduated from high school and will be going to university in the fall. I am still paying my student loans bit by bit. I am very honest, have never cheated the system, have never taken advantage of anything to get something I didn't deserve. If I had not had access to a subsidy for daycare (I still paid a portion), I would definitely not have been able to put myself through school and would actually not have been able to afford going to work either as I would be making minimum wage. Sooooo, I would have had to stay on welfare until my son started school full-time (I lived in BC at the time so that would be 6 years old). And then and would probably have become so demoralized and out of the working world and studying world...I don't know what I would have become or how I could have bettered my life and that of my son. I KNOW my son deserved the life I have given him. I also KNOW other kids deserve the same and their parents deserve a chance to try an better their lives by studying or working and the only way they can do that is by having subsidized daycare. I would rather put my tax dollars there even knowing that some people may abuse the system. It is worth it for those who truly need it (and there are many). All kids deserve the kind of life I was able to give my son because of the availability of daycare subsidy. And do you think it encouraged me to have more kids and sit on my butt? NO! I did not have more kids until 13 years later when I had a solid relationship, solid career and owned a home and was good and ready. And I actually personally know others who, like me, made use of subsidies to better their lives and those of their children. I KNOW my son is growing to be an upright, caring, wonderful member of society who will contribute great things. To say that I should not have had him because I couldn't afford daycare is actually sickening to me.

I'm pretty sure I said there should be a limit as some people stay on it for a lifetime

[playfelt]

Some special needs kids DO need jacuzzi tubs. Just saying.

So does mine! But so what if there is no funding. Once a municipality runs out everyone else is out of luck no matter what their need is including necessary medical services not covered by other programs.

[Sandbox Sally]

I think the thing that short sighted folks on this subject are not recognizing is that without daycare subsidy and other child based government programs, it is the child who will suffer, not just the parent.

playfelt, I am so sorry that your daughter is not receiving the funding that she needs. She doesn't qualify? That seems bizarre to me based on the details I've read before.

I also want to say that I have no idea who these people are that all of you know that can afford to swan off to the Caribbean on a welfare cheque. I have encountered the wonderful world of social assistance, and the people I know who needed it could barely purchase substantial groceries, let alone lavish vacations and weekend parties. One friend in particular that I am thinking about received enough for a room in someone's home and groceries for the month. There were NO extras.

[Artsand crafts]

I also want to say that I have no idea who these people are that all of you know that can afford to swan off to the Caribbean on a welfare cheque. I have encountered the wonderful world of social assistance, and the people I know who needed it could barely purchase substantial groceries, let alone lavish vacations and weekend parties. One friend in particular that I am thinking about received enough for a room in someone's home and groceries for the month. There were NO extras.

I guess people just get smarter and work around the loopholes in the system. I now this girl since 5 years ago and she is still in the welfare system. Daycare for her 3 kids are paid for. I do not know how someone that is not working can travel and party like her, and even have an occasional on call nanny for when her mom cannot take care of the kids when she's partying. Maybe it has something to do with putting 2 welfare cases together since this history is pretty similar to the one Crayola mentioned. It's really refreshing for me hearing histories in here of people having good use of the welfare system, because I actually know other people taking advantage of it (not as much as this girl) but still.

[sunnydays]

Sally, I agree. When I was a single mother on welfare, I was really lucky and managed to get subsidized housing as well. With that and the welfare as well as some help from my parents, I was able to manage to feed and cloth myself and my son. We did not have cable or internet, we bought mainly used clothing, used furniture (just the bare bones essentials). I did not drink alcohol, nor did I go partying (couldn't have afforded that or the clothes needed to do it) and I certainly did not go on vacation. Without the subsidized housing, I am not sure how we could have made it or what kind of slum apartment we would have ended up in. I sold my car (which had been given to me by my grandfather before I had a child) because I could not afford to pay for gas, insurance and repairs (I had to claim the money I made off of the sale of the car and it was taken off of my welfare cheque). To go grocery shopping, we would walk and then have the groceries delivered. We were certainly not living the high live. At Christmas, I was entitled to a gift for my son, but I declined it as I had family who gave him gifts and I felt it was better off going to someone who needed it more. I also had to submit to the utter humiliation of having a social worker come to my home and look in my closets to see if my ex was actually gone and I truly was a single parent. And I can't tell you how many times I left the welfare office crying because I was treated like a piece of garbage and looked down upon by over-worked, over-stressed social workers. Any of you who think living on welfare is an easy life, I think perhaps you need to walk a mile in a young single mother's shoes and see how it feels. I think if we all had a litle more empathy and whole lot less judegment, this world would be a better place.

[sunnydays]

I am confused as to why she would have daycare paid for if she is on welfare and not working? You can only qualify for a daycare subsidy if you are working or if you have an illness or disability that renders it impossible for you to care for your kids or work. I wasn't even allowed to attend university while going to school, so I had to take out student loans instead.


I guess people just get smarter and work around the loopholes in the system. I now this girl since 5 years ago and she is still in the welfare system. Daycare for her 3 kids are paid for. I do not know how someone that is not working can travel and party like her, and even have an occasional on call nanny for when her mom cannot take care of the kids when she's partying. Maybe it has something to do with putting 2 welfare cases together since this history is pretty similar to the one Crayola mentioned. It's really refreshing for me hearing histories in here of people having good use of the welfare system, because I actually know other people taking advantage of it (not as much as this girl) but still.

[Artsand crafts]

Last time that I met with her in person (3 years ago) in her new apartment she was about to start the laser technician career at a college. Now she is posting in her Facebook she is starting and stylist career. 5 years ago when I met her she wasn't working. She had 2 kids and of course not daycare, but still she was on welfare and she was able to afford the on call nanny for partying back then. The mom is "supposed" to be injured from her last job, but that is not true. Mom travels often, too, but I do not know too much only what the daughter posts about her.

I am sincerely glad that you have used the welfare system properly, because when people don't do it it just paint everybody with the same brush which is what actually is happen with the case of the home daycare we are seeing in the news now.

[sunnydays]

Exactly Artand crafts...some people will abuse anything. But because some people don't follow the rules, do we stop the whole program? Do we close down all unlicensed daycares because some are going over-ratio? This is what many of us are fighting against here on the forum.

[Artsand crafts]

Exactly Artand crafts...some people will abuse anything. But because some people don't follow the rules, do we stop the whole program? Do we close down all unlicensed daycares because some are going over-ratio? This is what many of us are fighting against here on the forum.

Well in my case I am not against social programs, but I think there should be a limit and a good system in place so people is not milking it non-stop and just seating in their asses. I just do not agree how tax dollars are being spent currently.

[Sandbox Sally]

Anyhow, regardless of all the welfare talk, daycare subsidy is not welfare or a handout any more than the Child Tax Credit or government funded health care is welfare.

[sunnydays]

I don't agree with how tax dollars are spent either! Extra perks for senators and other politicians are much more of a problem than social programs ;) I agree Arts and Crafts, there should be oversight for all programs and incentives for people to get back on their feet etc. Gov't in general needs a complete overhaul. A whole lot goes on with our tax dollars that we don't even know about. It makes me sick to think about the good that could be done with all of that money...instead it goes to pay for some rich senator's second home or vacation :(


Well in my case I am not against social programs, but I think there should be a limit and a good system in place so people is not milking it non-stop and just seating in their asses. I just do not agree how tax dollars are being spent currently.

[momofnerds]

people where have all you been. Last year (into this year) I had a mom claim single, because they needed stuff done to their house. Her and her dh make as much as my dh and I. She used someone elses addy (family) and all she had to do is say that she is seperate. Voila, she got money and lots of it. And not only that, her kids activites are either paid for or she gets a discount.
also, i know my bff's mother (we've been bff's for 30 yrs) sat on welfare forever till she qualified for canada pension or something like this. And the reason she didn't work was....she wanted to stay home and take care of her children even as adults.
I can go on and on.

if people need it, then i have no problem but 80% are just screwing the goverment. Like really, when you have one child and on welfare and finding it difficult then why would you continue to have 4 more kids (yup know a mom too)

[Sandbox Sally]

people where have all you been. Last year (into this year) I had a mom claim single, because they needed stuff done to their house. Her and her dh make as much as my dh and I. She used someone elses addy (family) and all she had to do is say that she is seperate. Voila, she got money and lots of it. And not only that, her kids activites are either paid for or she gets a discount.
also, i know my bff's mother (we've been bff's for 30 yrs) sat on welfare forever till she qualified for canada pension or something like this. And the reason she didn't work was....she wanted to stay home and take care of her children even as adults.
I can go on and on.

if people need it, then i have no problem but 80% are just screwing the goverment. Like really, when you have one child and on welfare and finding it difficult then why would you continue to have 4 more kids (yup know a mom too)

80%? Do you have a link that supports that figure?

[Sandbox Sally]

There are liars and criminals that aren't on welfare too. I don't get your guys' point in saying that some people on public assistance are screwing the system. Some people who ARENT on public assistance are crooks too. It just doesn't make sense.

I am guessing that many people find a way to steal. Does that make every social program enrollee a thief? All cats have paws. All dogs have paws. Therefore, all dogs must be cats.

[sunnydays]

Would love to see the statistics quoted here with the 80%. Is that 80% of people you have actually met or heard about through gossip? Gotta love it when people throw out statistics based on their own limited experiences with something.



people where have all you been. Last year (into this year) I had a mom claim single, because they needed stuff done to their house. Her and her dh make as much as my dh and I. She used someone elses addy (family) and all she had to do is say that she is seperate. Voila, she got money and lots of it. And not only that, her kids activites are either paid for or she gets a discount.
also, i know my bff's mother (we've been bff's for 30 yrs) sat on welfare forever till she qualified for canada pension or something like this. And the reason she didn't work was....she wanted to stay home and take care of her children even as adults.
I can go on and on.

if people need it, then i have no problem but 80% are just screwing the goverment. Like really, when you have one child and on welfare and finding it difficult then why would you continue to have 4 more kids (yup know a mom too)

[sunnydays]

I swore I wasn't going to post again on this thread, but I just can't help it. I do think it's a discussion that needs to be had and I feel we have all remained respectful and polite with our opinions. I think if we don't discuss things with each other, we miss out on potentially seeing another side to a story.

[BlueRose]

update http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/12/toronto-daycare-sandals-review.html

[Miss Amanda]

Wow! Many of you really do have a slanted view on welfare and childcare substity.
Let me enlighten you a little bit.

I was a teen mom with 2 kids by the time I was 19 years old. Of course it was not my first choice to have children that young, but it happened. I got pregnant when I was 16 years old and had my daughter at 17. Before I got pregnant, I had a part-time job at McD's and got EI (maternity benefits) from it. I did go on welfare after my EI was done. I should also point out that I went back to school to finish my high school diploma and I graduated on time exactly when I was suppose to. Obviously I got substidized daycare. I was not sitting on my ass collecting a welfare cheque, I was in school, taking care of my baby and also volunteering... and collecting a welfare cheque of $862.00!!! I dont know who gets a thousand + dollar welfare cheque!

My point is that I finished my high school and continued on to college, but I would not have been able to do that without my substidized chilcare spaces. Would our society be better off if I just sat on my ass collecting a welfare cheque, and not continuing my education to become a productive citizen?

[momofnerds]

the welfare system is flawed. How come people on welfare get money back at income tax time and I have to pay???

[Momof4]

Of course there are people abusing all systems in all walks of life, including welfare and social assistance. I'm so tired of phony, lying, abusive, horrible, backstabbing people, rich and poor.

Part of the reason I wanted to find a job where I worked out of my own home was so that I can cut those types of people out of my life and I'm doing a darn good job of that. I only work with the nicest people. I like this forum because it's filled with intelligent, supportive women. We're all working hard.

We got rid of the abusive poster and since then this thread has certainly gone off course from the original subject of the death at the daycare. I love it when people debate constructively without attacking each other and you ladies are doing a pretty good job of that.

None of us are experts on stats for the government so lets agree to disagree for now and put this to bed!

[sunnydays]

the welfare system is flawed. How come people on welfare get money back at income tax time and I have to pay???

If you made as little as someone on welfare gets, you would not pay either. They get back a very small amount because they don't make any money! The more you make, the more you pay...that's how it works.

[sunnydays]

With much respect (because I have a high degree of respect for you and for that matter, the other ladies on this forum...including the ones who I have opposite views from), I don't think this thread shouldbe shut down if people have things to add. I think everyone has been polite and stated their views...there hasn't been any name-calling or abuse. Many threads go off topic. Personally, if the turn a thread takes doesn't interest me, I just stop reading it and don't bother posting anything on it. This thread has nothing to do with the rude and disrespectful attack woman who was recently banned from posting. I know that we will all most likely have to agree to disagree, but does that mean we cannot have any healthy debate over controversial topics? For me, as long as everyone is being respectful, I take no offence at all to anyone stating views that are different from mine and I hope they do not take offence to me stating my opinions either. That's what it is to live in a democracy, a free country, where everyone has the right to discuss their opinions openly.



Of course there are people abusing all systems in all walks of life, including welfare and social assistance. I'm so tired of phony, lying, abusive, horrible, backstabbing people, rich and poor.

Part of the reason I wanted to find a job where I worked out of my own home was so that I can cut those types of people out of my life and I'm doing a darn good job of that. I only work with the nicest people. I like this forum because it's filled with intelligent, supportive women. We're all working hard.

We got rid of the abusive poster and since then this thread has certainly gone off course from the original subject of the death at the daycare. I love it when people debate constructively without attacking each other and you ladies are doing a pretty good job of that.

None of us are experts on stats for the government so lets agree to disagree for now and put this to bed!

[inspiredmom]

Hi, this story is very sad but unfortunately will continue on unless we, as parents make sure, our children are safe! People that run a daycare in that kind of environment do it because of us not saying anything until a tragedy happens!!!...enough is enough we have a voice let s ear it.,it seems not to gossip about next door neighbour wife,husband ect... but to speak out about the daycare that has too many kids! come on!!!

[inspiredmom]

Hi, this story is very sad but unfortunately will continue on unless we, as parents make sure, our children are safe! People that run a daycare in that kind of environment do it because of us not saying anything until a tragedy happens!!!...enough is enough we have a voice let s ear it! it seems ok to gossip about next door neighbour wife,husband ect... but when it comes to speak out about the daycare that has too many kids we keep it shut! come on!!!

[mamaof4]

oy.

I have a law degree. In the US that means I went to 4 years of college (BS) then 3 years of Law (JD) I also went on to get my LLM. I have 5 kids now, but when I graduated, my first job out of law school was a not for profit job that paid a whooping 27000 BEFORE taxes. Bearing in mind I had kids (2 at the time) and more than 50K in student loans (and that is LOW on the spectrum- I got a lot of scholarships went to public schools most law students end with more than 100k in loans). It would have been impossible to survive without help.

Now 7 years later, 3 kids later my husband is a firefighter, his income of 62,000 (before taxes) is supposed to care for us. The guy who is called to save lives and protect peoples homes.

The disparity between the rich and the poor has grown at an astonishing rate and makes it exceptionally hard for middle class people to survive- not living high either. I had to quit my job because he made more than I did, carries the benefits, and pension- in the US we have to pay for all of that ourselves. Which really means we piecemeal things together as best as we can.

Someone up thread said we as a society have the responsibility to care for the vulnerable. Who are more vulnerable than children?

[playfelt]

The parts that are missing is finding a way for those on a low income to get some of the necessities at the same percentage as others such as only spending 30% of their income on rent. I get why the government claws back half of everything a person on welfare or ODSP earns but then we wonder why they don't bother. When you earn $200 a week and only have $100 to keep but then have to deduct the going to work expenses from that such as bus fare and a hair cut it becomes not worth it.

My daughter is on ODSP and the only way she can survive is that she lives in a subsidized apartment so that she only pays the $450 the government gives towards rent and shares to make it work.

[Sandbox Sally]

I'm still waiting for momofnerds to come back to the thread and post the links to support her statement that 80% of welfare recipients are defrauding the system. :rolleyes:

[momofnerds]

I'm still waiting for momofnerds to come back to the thread and post the links to support her statement that 80% of welfare recipients are defrauding the system. :rolleyes:

our newspaper ran an article maybe last year about defrauding, it was interesting on how many people do it.

[playfelt]

I'm still waiting for momofnerds to come back to the thread and post the links to support her statement that 80% of welfare recipients are defrauding the system. :rolleyes:

No need to stir up confrontation. You know there are no definitive stats out there which is part of the problem there is no being accountable for money received or money paid. Statistics are based on what is known and percentages deduced and well that sounds about right in the sense of a high number just like they say 80% of kids are cared for in private home daycare - no one knows for sure because that info isn't included in the taxes when parents claim and there is no accounting for kids cared for free by grandma whose parents work. Please just let it go.

[momofnerds]

ok, so on sat. I go to the park with my dd (her siblings didn't want to go with her) so as I'm sitting there, there is a mom with her 3 yr old ds. She was on her iphone. I had to bite my tongue at what she said.

she is talking loud enough that the other mother heard her too. this women starts laughing and goes on to say how she is getting extra money on her child tax credit. she continues to say how she needs the money because she she has no money in her bank to make it till the end of the week. (this part made me angry) she starts laughing and goes on to say "I'm glad they are taking money from the middle class and giving it to the poor because we need the money more than they do" omg, I so wanted to tell her off. The look on the other mothers face was priceless, she couldn't believe what she was hearing too.

then she continued her convo with a boat load of swear words and smoking her cigarrettes (my dd pointed it all out to me and she's 9) finally she left. I wanted to see where she was going (I live in a small town so its not like I couldn't find out) but really who brags about this stuff.

[playfelt]

As a self employed person I know I have to tread carefully in any discussion about fraud in the sense that while I don't set out to commit fraud most of us at one time or another have claimed a questionable item or even an item we know is wrong such as a receipt for two books knowing one was being given as a gift to a relative but come three years from now in an audit the expense will look legitimate. We defend it sometimes by saying well it makes up for the things I can't claim because I don't have a receipt for them... does not make it right.

There is nothing simple about how the tax laws, welfare laws, ODSP laws, childcare subsidy laws are determined and administered and the interpretation of the laws can even vary from one caseworker to another. We know that all of these systems are 100% broken and if we were in the position of finding a loophole that allowed us an extra $50 some month it is wrong for us to say we would not be tempted to take it because if you were really in that situation you do not know how you would react.

[Sandbox Sally]

You think I should let it go? Yeah, but if I do, then everyone else should, too, right? Is there a reason that this message board gets so upset when people disagree or debate? Why should I let it go, but nobody else has to? Is it because I disagree with your stance?

Should I just ignore that data has been made up to support an argument? I think it's silly to claim that 80% of people are defrauding welfare when you have no evidence to support that. It completely negates the point of saying anything. If someone wants to have a rational discussion using facts, they should do so. It is irresponsible to make up data, and people should be called on it.

[Sandbox Sally]

It is interesting that you know all you need to know to judge the woman's entire life based on overhearing ten seconds of a phone conversation. My iPhone was free with my cell plan. Are you saying that people who have government subsidy shouldn't be allowed a cell phone?

[momofnerds]

what is your problem. Did you even read my post. Obviously you didn't but let me recap it for you. There was an article in the newspaper where *I* live and they did a write up on fraud on welfare, mothers allowence, disability... sorry I didn't keep the article to prove it to you.

so you don't care that someone would be happy that the goverment is taking money out of the middle class family and giving it to the poor because the poor people deserve it, thats exactly what this mother said. So I should give my hard earn money to that mother so she can have her iphone (I don't have a phone cause I can't afford it) and her smokes, while my dh has to go away from his family for work, ya that makes alot of sense.

I'm done on this.

[Sandbox Sally]

I don't even care if this post gets me banned from here. I am sick and tired of the narrow minded judgemental views of some of the posters here. People say outrageously hateful things here against those who live in poverty, and others sit back, nodding their heads and clucking their tongues in agreement. It's a little bit gross.

I pay taxes so that I can live in a country that has excellent social programs, including universal health care. If you lived in the USA, you would have people looking down their noses at you for having government subsidized health care. Don't you get it? Nobody wins when we turn against one another. I don't get angry or bitter when people use the excellent safeguards our society in Canada provides to us, nor am I suspect of every person who uses them. If you're on welfare, you shouldn't have a cell phone? Why not? How dare poor people have communication privilege, right? I don't have a land line - I have only a cell phone, and it is cheaper than my land line was.

This whole conversation started by a child dying in a daycare, possibly due to overcrowding issues, because some parents simply can NOT afford good daycare. But hey, that turned into a hateful conversation where people on this forum said that's THEIR problem for choosing the wrong partner, or having a child alone, or whatever other circumstances that they've found themselves in where they can't afford things other people take for granted. If you look at things through THOSE glasses, it's also your husband's problem that he works out of town, after all, shouldn't he just quit his job and go back to school?Or wait, shouldn't you all just suck it up, because you should have thought of that before you had kids? Really...think about what you're saying.

I am sorry that you are bitter. If you have a home daycare, you should probably get a phone. I promise that this woman isn't taking your husband's money. He would be taxed just the same whether she needed assistance or not.

You were not just commenting on what she said, you were commenting on her phone, her smoking and her parenting. I find it a little suspect that you know all you need to know from someone by watching them for a few minutes. I also have a hard time seeing you as a reliable narrator, since you've already shown that you fabricate stories to back up your opinion.

My problem is your obvious prejudice against the poor. I doubt that your local paper said that 80 percent of all welfare recipients are defrauding the government. I doubt that very highly. You are pulling facts out of thin air. If you don't want to be called out on it, don't post fabrications as fact. You used a fake statistic to back up your prejudiced views. That's not ok. I am sorry if people on this site think that people on public assistance are lower than them, but I tend to judge people for their bad behaviour, rather than their socioeconomic status.

[Momof4]

Sandbox Sally, I see what you are saying because I was the single Mom of 4 children who worked a full time job and a part time job to pay the rent, food, clothing and all necessities of a family of 5. It was sheer hell and I missed so much of my children's lives. I did everything I could to keep us off welfare but my children suffered for it and I suffered for it.

But then I went on (it was called Mother's Allowance in the 90's) to go to college for a few years and it was horrible, we couldn't survive on that income so I took a part-time job as well and with all of the college classes and working, you guessed it, I hardly saw my children again.

Now, I have heard people on forums complain about parents who never spend time with their children and dump them at daycare and it makes me cringe. Who are they to judge? And the line in this thread about choosing the wrong partner, well I chose ALL the WRONG men!

I see your point. I don't like it when people make judgements of others because nobody has walked in anyone else's shoes.

But Momofnerds overheard someone saying something that admittedly would have made my mouth drop open too. I'm against people smoking around children so that would have put the cap on it for me. I have neighbours sitting on their 2nd floor balcony right this minute smoking pot while my clients are arriving to pick up their children. I had the welfare neighbour who had nothing better to do with his time other than to smoke nonstop and party with his friends during the day and I'm lucky I didn't lose any clients. It was horrible. It's hard not to judge them!

But there are so many kinds of prejudice, racial, sexual preferences, prejudice against people who are overweight, poverty stricken, handicapped and so much more. It all makes me furious when people judge! I'm not picking a side, I'm trying to point out that we should all support each other. Isn't that why we are here?

[Sandbox Sally]

I feel like I offer lots of support on this board, and lots of people, yourself included, Momof4, have supported me, and I am grateful for that. I love many women that I've met on here, and some have become off board friends, too.

But...I am not just talking about momofnerds, nor am I just talking about the story about the woman momofnerds saw the other day. I am talking about this whole disgusting thread, where people do nothing to hide their hatred of the poor. It deeply upsets me, and I cannot sit and read it without saying my piece. I have as much right to state my case as everyone else. I won't let fake stats slide when they're being used to incriminate a vulnerable population. That's just wrong, sorry.

It's so upsetting to see the same tired old stereotypes being propagated here of all places, where we are supposed to be teaching the next generation to do better, yet the cycle of prejudice and closed mindedness continues. It's just so sad and disheartening.

In future, I will try to stick to daycare issues, but it's hard to stand by and watch sometimes.

[sunnydays]

I wasn't going to wade into these murky waters again...because it's like swimming upstream sometimes. People are set in their ways of seeing things and it is very difficult to change their minds...even through intelligent factual debate. We all make judegments...even those of us who think we are open-minded. But we should all be open to looking at things from another perspective...seeing things through another's eyes. We don't know what led up to that mother sitting and smoking at the park while talking about assistance on her iPhone. We don't know if she is mentally or physically ill, if she has been abused, if she was a foster child, if she had an abusive husband or father or mother for that matter, etc. Do any of these things mean she could not go on to lead a productive life? No...but the thing is, we don't know at what point in her life we have found her...we don't know ANYTHING about her. I would like to think that if my life ever crumbles around me and I find myself down in the dumps (it can happen to the best of us by the way) that I will have a system there to help me out and that I won't be judged left right and centre by self-rightous individuals who think this could never happen to them and that somehow it is my fault no matter what.

[mamaof4]

I am all for this discussion and debate- We are going to have different opinions- we are different people and we have different experiences etc.

Where I have an issue as a mod is the intentional stirring up of controversy. I am going to close this thread as we have veered way off topic but please feel free to restart this discussion in another thread. I think we all can learn a lot from each other.

Thank you.