Would you term this child?

[Other Mummy]

Just curious as to how any of you might handle this.

I have a 3.5 yr old dcb since he was 20 months. He has always been a challenge. From day one. I have worked with several issues with the parents to curb certain behaviours. Mom is on board, dad is very lenient. Wants to be dcb's best friend.:unsure:

As of late (the last 5 months). DCB will bite once or twice a week. Sometimes no bites at all for weeks on end. Then Bang...he will bite another child over a toy, frustration over space, etc.

I have talked to dcb's dad last week about this. I suggested he take a more proactive role as far as disciplining this behavior. Take away a toy, no tv for the night, etc. He feels that is to harsh and that with so many hours that have passed in the day since the biting (during daycare) that it would not help to take away privlidges in the evening.:mad:

This dcb is very intelligent. He knows right from wrong. He just does not care. Last week he bit a child for not playing the right way:blink:

I cannot even shadow him because it is inconsistent, it is not a "phase" he is going through. He might bite twice in one day or not for weeks.

BTW...mostly it is one little dcb he targets. I've let the dcp's know that I'm not putting up with this anymore. Zero policy. If he bites they come and get him. asap. I'm sure after a few times of this it will get old pretty fast and they will start to change their tune.

I'm thinking of terming anyway. It seems like a lost cause.:no:

[apples and bananas]

I might give notice at this point. I would draw up a letter advising them that biting is not tolerated in your daycare. You have to consider the safety of all children. If the child bites again the parents will need to pick up immediately. And if it continues to be an issue then the child will be terminated from care.

what they do at home and how they discipline is beyond your control. So, control what you can. If he bites, he goes home. If the parents refuse to come get him, term immediately.

At 3.5 he knows he shouldn't be biting and he has other ways of expressing himself other then physical.

[Bookworm]

I would terminate. The parents are not on board and it will not get better. I went through this exact scenario before with a set of siblings. Same thing, would not do it for weeks/months at a time, then go through a biting frenzy for a week or so, then it would stop. Nothing I did worked in the long run. I eventually terminated them, and felt soo much better once I did.

[Cadillac]

Honestly, I would give notice. He's not learning and this one little child is getting hurt. I would assume that childs mom is upset and may leave if this continues. Who would you rather keep? the biter or the bitten? It's not fair to the other families. You have to look out for the good of the group.

I've had to term a 3.5 year old due to bullying. it was hard because I loved this child and the family, but my setting wasn't working for she anymore and the other kids were paying for it.

It was messy to term them but in the end my group became much happier, and the parents really appreciated that I took noice and then took charge when things didn't change

[Busy ECE mommy]

Terminate. This is not a toddler, and assuming his language skills are developed, and he is not developmentally delayed, then this is extremely inappropriate and dangerous behaviour. If you can't get full parental support to ensure consistency, then it's time to go. I'm sure your other clients must be growing angry with these incidents as well. In the licensed centre I worked in, biting, especially any broken skin, was a serious occurence, meaning that the supervisor and area manager and possibly the ministry might become involved in the case. Don't take it lightly.

[playfelt]

Given the child's age he is old enough to know better and I agree a letter drawn up which states that the next time he bites the parents will be required to come and get him immediately and that he will be terminated on the spot.

Personally I would replace him anyways and not wait for another incident because if you don't then you will soon have the other parents in your daycare looking for another place instead. He is a liability.

I agree to a certain extent with the father in that I always hated it with child with learning disabilities to find out there had been an incident at school I was expected to punish for at home. Behaviours like biting, hitting, etc are in the heat of the moment and should be dealt with then. Child doesn't show the behaviours at home most likely since they are not being challenged by the other kids.

An option for at daycare is to simply institute a waiting chair which child must sit on when you need to leave the room or be busy and he just sits there till you return. Remind him it is because he forgets the rules when alone. Won't really teach him anything but will protect the other kids.

Will child start school this year or not? If yes then let him go in favour of a full time child and if not I probably would look to replace him anyways. If he was 2 and doing this it is one thing but at 3 1/2 he could really do damage on an infant or toddler if he bit and drew blood.

[Momof4]

I have to agree with the others. I have a 17 month old who has been biting for a few months and I talked to the parents. This little girl has bitten 2 of the other dckids so I had to really stress the importance that it stops NOW. The little girl was doing it now and then at home too so the Mom decided one day when she did it to bit her back. Sounds horrible, I know, but this little girl was leaving teethprints in other people that could be made into a mould for dental work, it was that deep, but didn't break skin. Left horrible bruising for days though. Her Mom didn't bite her half that hard, just hard enough for her to realize that it hurt! I think it worked, she hasn't bitten anybody for 2 weeks, so far so good.

My point is that this little girl isn't even 1 1/2 yet and the parents took me seriously and helped right away.

[Judy Trickett]

He's 3.5 years old. He KNOWS better. He understands perfectly well that it is NOT OKAY to bite. Terminate him. Today.

[cfred]

Momof4 - believe it or not, biting the biter to teach them that it hurts was actually practiced by ECE once upon a time. My professors (the older ones) said they were taught to do this when they went to school. Wow! I was amazed. It makes a lot of sense that it could be somewhat effective, but not sure I could ever implement that. Just thought that was an interesting little bit of ECE trivia for ya :)

So far as the biting behaviour, it's tough and by 3.5, he should be old enough to know better. I had a couple biters here (though substantially younger - 2 and 1.5). I researched it as I didn't want to let any clients go. To me, it just felt like I'd be offloading the problem onto someone else as opposed to trying to figure it out. All the articles I read said that typically, it's a rush of emotion so strong they just do it not knowing what else to do. Biting seems the best way to get someone off your back. Sooooo....being a huge fan of circle time, my kids are most receptive to learning about this kind of thing at that time. I changed our theme to 'Feelings' and had a few circles surrounding that. There's a book called "The Way I Feel". Very basic and each page talks briefly, in rhyme, about a different feeling. I implement a different action for happy, angry, sad, scared, etc and talk about different things that might make us feel this way. We also talk about how someone looks with the different feelings - how can we tell someone is happy (big smile), etc. During the angry part, I get the kids to roar and stomp their feet. I say that sometimes we feel soooo angry we feel like we want to hit or bite someone, but we must never ever do that. It makes our friends sad, makes me sad and makes you sad. Then we talk about using words and assure them that if they do that, I'll help them fix the problem. I have to say, it's worked great!!! We had a couple more incidents, but they've cleared up now. When I hear the little guy saying 'No baby Zoe, no baby Zoe', I know to run and intervene before the bite has a chance to happen, then shower the little guy with praise for using his words like a big boy and show him my 'Happy Face'. It seems like a lot of effort, but I feel it's really gone well and he seems to be getting it. This way, you don't really need to rely on the parents being on board. It's more of a positive experience and he feels proud that he's made me happy as well as seeing that I meant it when I said I'd help him. It perpetuates itself.

Don't know if that's of any use to you, but I found it really helped. My preference is always to work through an issue, rather than terming. In my experience, kids are generally good at heart and want to make us happy. I try to use that to my advantage and to the benefit of the group.

Good luck with whatever you decide :)

[Momof4]

Momof4 - believe it or not, biting the biter to teach them that it hurts was actually practiced by ECE once upon a time. My professors (the older ones) said they were taught to do this when they went to school. Wow! I was amazed. It makes a lot of sense that it could be somewhat effective, but not sure I could ever implement that. Just thought that was an interesting little bit of ECE trivia for ya :)

Ha, there is no way I would ever do that! I'm glad the Mom did it though.

[torontokids]

Biting a child as a "teaching tool" is like a parent that hits their child then yells at the kid for hitting their brother. I think it could send the child mixed messages and also as a parent I wouldn't want to be viewed by my child as someone that "hurts" them.

[cfred]

I would suspect this is why it's no longer part of ECE curriculum. The prof who told us she was taught to do this was about 60+ yrs when she was my instructor....20 years ago :)

[Momof4]

I see what you're saying torontokids, but in defense of my daycare Mom, she's a wonderful Mom and this is her second child, so she's learned a lot about parenting over the past 5 years. What would you do if your HDCP was at her wit's end because 2 other children have been badly bitten at daycare? What if your HDCP was stressing that this has to stop NOW? I've been tapping baby on her teeth, looking her in the eyes and telling her OUCH on her friends and other things like that, never taking my eyes off her, but it happens so fast. I have a new baby starting soon and this cannot happen to him!

[playfelt]

Some of the old methods although frowned on now worked wonders. Spanking the body part in offence such as the hands for touching, the mouth for biting, the leg/foot for kicking - we are talking spanking not smacking/abusing. What it does is draw attention to the child of what they did - they bit with the mouth, kicked with the leg/foot, touched something they were not allowed to with the hands. Actions speak louder than words was coined for a reason.

As to biting a child back yes again an old final straw medicine. Ouch to a child is a concept they don't always associate with what they are doing. When it hurts them they do a double take. Then when you say say no ouch or no touch they get what you are saying. Normally it only needs to happen once, twice at most or monthly at most not daily or weekly. Right or wrong it worked. I do get tired of the weeks/months of nonsense we put up with now in the interest of no corporal punishment. Don't care if it put the fear of whatever into the child, they never did it again and we could go on with life in peace - not sounding like a broken record, or pulling our hair out, or screaming for the craziness to stop - no need to terminate kids because they were taught to obey authority by the parents and transferred that onto the caregiver/teacher. Oh how I long for those days. We had time to learn and have fun and in reality I think kids were actually happier and less stressed. Just my opinion of course but then I am old enough to have lived the lifestyle not just read about it being torn to shreds by somebody's new ideal that has since proven not as effective.

[Crayola kiddies]

My youngest was a biter and none of my kids ever bit until this one and I tired everything ..... One day he bit me .... I shrieked very loud to scare the hell out of him and then I bit him back ..... He has never bit since ..... However I obviously could never bite someones elses kid and I have never had a biter in my daycare so I don't have experience there but with my own biting him back worked.

[momofnerds]

acually I had a little girl (several years ago) who went around biting the kids. Totally out of the blue. You never knew when she would strike. So I told gma that I didn't know what to do, but apparently she wasnt doing it at home, till one day.......she bit gma so hard she drew blood. Gma bit her back and the little girl never bit again.

I've had parents when their child bit them, laugh. So a child doesn't get that it hurts.

last week I had a 5 yr old bite his 11 yr old brother. Guess who got punished to the chair. And when I asked him why he did it, he shrugged his shoulders. So I got down on his level and used my mean voice and I wanted an answer, not shoulders being shrugged. It turned out that his brother took the popsicle sticks by mistake and the 5 yr old wanted it back. At that age you know right from wrong and you should have consequences.

the parents just brush it off when it happens at home and thats why he does it, too bad I'm mean and don't put up with it.

[jammiesandtea]

Some of the old methods although frowned on now worked wonders. Spanking the body part in offence such as the hands for touching, the mouth for biting, the leg/foot for kicking - we are talking spanking not smacking/abusing. What it does is draw attention to the child of what they did - they bit with the mouth, kicked with the leg/foot, touched something they were not allowed to with the hands. Actions speak louder than words was coined for a reason.

As to biting a child back yes again an old final straw medicine. Ouch to a child is a concept they don't always associate with what they are doing. When it hurts them they do a double take. Then when you say say no ouch or no touch they get what you are saying. Normally it only needs to happen once, twice at most or monthly at most not daily or weekly. Right or wrong it worked. I do get tired of the weeks/months of nonsense we put up with now in the interest of no corporal punishment. Don't care if it put the fear of whatever into the child, they never did it again and we could go on with life in peace - not sounding like a broken record, or pulling our hair out, or screaming for the craziness to stop - no need to terminate kids because they were taught to obey authority by the parents and transferred that onto the caregiver/teacher. Oh how I long for those days. We had time to learn and have fun and in reality I think kids were actually happier and less stressed. Just my opinion of course but then I am old enough to have lived the lifestyle not just read about it being torn to shreds by somebody's new ideal that has since proven not as effective.


I totally agree with playfelt's main points, particularly the ones I highlighted in bold.

As a caregiver, I've never used any type of corporal punishment, but I DO teach children to respect adults' authority and I run a tight ship because I am firm, consistent, and no-nonsense when it comes to behaviour. Raising children should not be a democracy. My role (and the parental role) is more than just providing care, daily needs, emotional support, etc. Our job is to TEACH children all that they need to learn in order to be decent, kind, empathetic, productive members of society. Those lessons can't start at 5 or 10 or 15 years of age. It starts from the beginning, or else you are way behind and some never catch up at all. (Those are the brats, bullies, and juvenile criminals we've all unfortunately met.)

Sorry for the mini rant ladies, but this topic is a hot one for me! :)

I WISH we could (as caregivers) bite a biter in return to show them immediately that it hurts and is not something they ever want to experience again or inflict on others. It WORKS. It teaches empathy in a way that toddlers can actually understand. I support any parent who employs it.

Edited to add: Just realized that in my mini-ranting haste, I forgot to answer the original question! lol :laugh:

I would probably term, given that Dad isn't on board with discipline and prefers to be the kid's best friend rather than his father. I disagree with him on punishing/taking away evening privileges being too late to have an effect. At 2 years old that is true, but an intelligent 3.5 year old as you described him, would definitely remember in the evening why he is dealing with a consequence of bad behaviour earlier in the day.

But unless Dad has some sort of miraculous epiphany overnight, he isn't going to change and neither is the kid. Actually, the kid will just get worse as he learns more and more ways of pitting the caregiver or whoever dares to discipline him, against soft, weak Daddy who will always be his best friend and can't bear to punish his poor innocent baby (who bites and victimizes others). :thumbdown:

[Sassygirl]

TERM!!!
They should know better at that age.
You also don't need the other parents getting upset and pulling their children.
This 3.5 year old will be going to school soon.

[torontokids]

I totally agree that parents need to be authoritative and respected. I am definitely not a parent that looks to be my child's friend and my children do not get away with anything. I think sometimes it is suggested in this forum that parents are then lenient/pushovers if they don't employ certain discipline strategies. I do however stand by my statement that it is wrong to bite a child and/or hit a child.

I worked for over 8 yrs with children who's behaviours were so extreme they couldn't manage in mainstream daycare or schools. There are tons of alternatives/approaches to managing behaviours but I think the problem with these alternatives is that they are often not as immediately effective or are not effectively implemented leading people to think they don't/wouldn't work.

For example with biting. Yelling "ow, that hurt mommy" with a firm/mean face can be quite effective and I have had this work with problem biters (parents need to be consistent as well and of course no laughing). You may need to do it a few more times but I find it works. Also I teach my kids to use their words and they will tell each other when they don't like something (I'll coach them to say "Bobby, I don't like that!") or they learn to stop playing with the offender and the "biter" catches on real quick. Shadowing, teethers, separation all work as well. I also do a lot with my kids to teach them calming strategies (e.g. deep breaths, walking away, counting to 10) so they can calm themselves when feeling upset and then use their words as opposed to their teeth. I do a lot of modelling of this and coach them to learn to do this effectively. Even my 18 mos old can say "I don't like that" where as the littler ones are more separated/corrected by me.

[jammiesandtea]

I definitely agree with you torontokids, about teaching kids coping and calming strategies, as well as utilizing other methods to combat biting, particularly since as caregivers we can't opt for the bite-the-biter response anyway. :) Yelling "OW, that HURT jammiesandtea!" with a firm/mean face, with emphasis on the yell and the firm/mean face... NOT a wishy-washy/gentle reaction or even worse, a laugh.

We can agree to disagree on a parents' use of the bite-the-biter method. I respect your right to be against it. I still feel it is a logical consequence, and my discipline philosophy is based around logical consequences for behaviour. Alas, it's not a method that a daycare provider/non-parent is allowed to use, so I will continue to shadow, provide teething/biting alternatives when appropriate, teach coping strategies, and yell OW! with my mean face on when necessary. lol ;)

Also, I fully agree, I don't think that parents must use spanking or biting etc to be authoritative, respected, and in control of their children. Not using it does NOT automatically make a parent a lenient pushover. Not at all! But a parent/caregiver does need to be the one who makes the rules, has ENOUGH rules, and enforces the rules consistently, every time, every day, in order to be authoritative, respected, and in control of the children. It sounds like you have the right mindset of parent/caregiver, not friend, and we're both living proof that you can be authoritative without the use of corporal punishment. :) Now if only we could get ALL the parents of the world to be more authoritative and in control, our jobs (and society!) would be so much easier and happier! :thumbsup:

[Momof4]

Well Torontokids, I've done all the things you listed and do them on a consistent basis. Everywhere we go I get compliments on having such well behaved children all around me and they are awesome kids if I do say so myself. They listen to me and I'm very proud of them. But a 17 month old who has been seriously biting for over a month both at home and at daycare and isn't stopping is a whole other story. I only have 4 clients right now and 2 of them have taken home children with deep bites on their arms. I've only had one other biter in care, but this one is giving us a run for our money!

I say it all the time and I mean it. I'm here to protect ALL the children, for all the good things and from sickness and injury.

[Other Mummy]

* UPDATE *

It's been an interesting read about what others would do in this situation. I have been on the fence waaay to long with this dcb. The final straw was this Friday. :rolleyes:

DCB was giving his father a very difficult time at drop off (they were late as well). Instead of just leaving, dcd kept giving in to dcb's whiny crying. Twice he took him outside to calm down. The third time he read my text that DCB was late and please feed breakfast at home prior to coming to daycare. So he took him home to eat and calm down .

I gave him the park we will be at to meet us there when dcb was finished eating his breakfast. They came at 10:15. DCB was fine the whole day. Until the very end. I was saying goodbye to one of my graduating dcg's and her mom. We are at the top of the stairs and dcb is holding the other boy by the collar and not allowing him to go up the stairs. This is the same dcb he was holding back whom he has bitten to many times. When I gave my stern "DCB, let DCB2 go right now!" He lunged and tried to bite his neck/back?. Right in front of my eyes and the other dcm as well. :no:

3 min. later his mom came. I explained what happened and she seemed waaay more annoyed at DCB2 (the bitee). Then she sends me some garbled text about how he is not getting a treat tonite and that she also feels that he is not welcome at my daycare"...Ya think?

The icing....I checked out her facebook page to see if she had posted anything about this latest incident at daycare (I'm not a facebook friend of hers, I just took a chance) She had written a post about dcb's "frenemy". She told her friends that he only bites once every 2 or 3 weeks :ohmy: More like 2 x a week. Easily. And she referred to me as the "sitter". That was it for me.

To me it is very clear that this is dcb's way of "controlling" a situation. He could get so mad, that he wants to bite. What happens when I'm not in the same room and he chooses to demonstrate his control over another child. What if it's a bad bite. And I could have prevented it. I shudder. I'd be a bad provider for not protecting the others. Too much stress. He's got to go.

Termination letter and conversation on Tuesday at drop off.

[apples and bananas]

You're absolutely right ! Out he goes. I wouldn't even wait until Tuesday. If I saw a child be that aggressive in front of me I wouldn't allow the child back into my care. No notice.

You're right to protect the safety of the other kids.

[momofnerds]

sounds like mom just isn't getting it. Don't worry, when he starts being kicked out of more and more daycares, she'll then do something about it.

my sister was telling me that they have friends who's ds was in a center daycare. She tells me that the dad was saying how the ds was kicked out for "biting one time" so I tell my sister that isn't true, most have a 3 times policy and most places want parents to do something about it. Well my sister starts to laugh and says "well his parents think its funny that he's biting the kids and in their house, the boy rules the roost" funny how parents down play incidents just so they don't look like the bad guy.

[Other Mummy]

So I did it!! Feels like a huge weight has been lifted. I've given them two weeks notice, with the clause that if dcb bites or hurts anyone in the daycare, he is terminated instantly...This is day 2. I don't think he will last the entire 2 weeks without an incident. Cannot wait for the next family to come onboard. It can only go "UP" from here right? :D Looking forward to the whole shift in dynamics in my little daycare :yes:

[SLD]

I doubt he will get through the 2 weeks either. Mom and Dad don't get it, so the kid won't either.

Next time he bites, completely exclude him from the group. Give the parents a very short time frame to get him out of there. Done, done and DONE. I have no patience for clueless parents.