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TwinsPlusOne
08-27-2013, 03:38 PM
We have had a lot of issues with my kids daycare/preschool. We have this last week left otherwise I would have pulled my 3 out sooner (couldn't due to subsidy)

This daycare is not following the human rights code for my child after talking to the head teacher and owner of the facility. The head teacher is religious and putting her belief structure of my family.

My child has been picked on by the kids AND by at least 2 teachers.

My child ended up at the children's hospital 2x this month for mental health issues (a 5 year old should not be depressed and self abusing due to teacher and kids at daycare picking on them), we have had to pull our kid out the max days I can without being charged for what subsidy covers.

We have thankfully gotten our child in to a good mental health program to help heal from this horrible time.
I have had to go pt this month to take care of my kid on the days pulled out,and have quit as of September as we are scared to put our kids in a after school care program.

Our mental health team wants us to take the daycare to the human rights tribunal, as we had to pull out of an amazing choice school to go to a closer community school.

Anyone had to deal with a bad daycare?

Judy Trickett
08-27-2013, 04:20 PM
Well, one would think that it wouldn't matter what the subsidy situation is etc, if it were THAT bad at that daycare then you would have pulled your kids out immediately once all of this came to your attention the first time. Kids trump money - every time.

So, with that said, I have to ask why you would allow your kids to stay in an environment that is such a threat to their well-being.

mimi
08-27-2013, 04:44 PM
To answer your question, I do not know anyone who has done this, and if someone has, every situation is different.

I hope your son is on his way to being healthy and does not have any lingering effects from this bad experience.

However, on first notice that things were not right ie abuse, I would have pulled my child immediately and called the authorities. I just could not knowingly leave my child in an abusive situation.

playfelt
08-27-2013, 04:50 PM
If you are on subsidy, does the organization that supplies that not also license the facilities? That is where I would start.

TwinsPlusOne
08-27-2013, 05:13 PM
My child recently came out as transgendered. I also quit my real" job a year and a half to take care of my dying mom. Unfortunately I do not have the $700x 3 kids to just pull them out and pay out of picket with no care. 1 income for 5 people leaves us with a break even budget if there are no surprises...

Right now for the last 4 weeks the head teacher has forced using birth name and female pronouns. Telling him that he will be a freek and has to use hs full birth name. I have cried every day I have had to send him. He gets teased by the kids and daycare does nothing.
Apparently telling the kids that my child goes by he and him now and a male name is "detrimental" to the other kids at daycare.

It hurts when you find out your kid hits his head on the wall because of an adult you trusted... I looked over all options with the social worker from the hospital and unless I could pay out of pocket I was stuck....

My child does have a dx of gender dismophic disorder. And the Canadian human rights covers the fact that he has the right to be called he, hs, and his male chosen name and to use the male washroom. We saw sighns of ths at 3.5 but at almost 5 it came full blown out...
I'm just glad my child's kindergarten is open, caring, and following the human rights code

I just want to make sure this does not happen to another child. The person who owns the daycare facility owns 4-5 more.

TwinsPlusOne
08-27-2013, 05:18 PM
When pulling my kid out would mean eviction because I can't pay rent, no food for my family, and no gas to get my husband to work, unfortunately I had to send. Please see my response and don't be s quick to judge

2cuteboys
08-27-2013, 05:49 PM
I've never been in the situation, but it sounds like you'd be we'll within your rights. Especially if your team of experts is advising the same.

If you have any contracts from the daycare it might be a good idea to look them over with a lawyer. Not that anything in a contract would excuse mental abuse of a child, but if the daycare was religious-themed, you may run into the issue of people questioning why he'd be enrolled there if it went against the daycares faith (if it were faith centered). But again, I'm not saying its excusable in any way.

Hope everything works out for you and your kids!

TwinsPlusOne
08-27-2013, 06:29 PM
Thanks. It's a non religious daycare. East Indian owners, head teacher is Asian and catholic...
It's just been one hell of a month... And to think this head teacher was almost like a friend. Her son plays with mine. I would bring Starbucks and other treats often... Blah! What hurts is my child didn't tell me what was going on, I found out during his assessment. The doctor let me know. My child wanted so much to be accepted by the teachers and friends that he held it inside.

playfelt
08-27-2013, 06:50 PM
Not to belittle what happened to your child but it is for sure totally wrong. At the same time the kids in this age bracket are just learning to deal with reality/fantasy and sometimes the teacher will draw the line on the fantasy play when it crosses the line - ie just because you are a boy dressed as a princess today does not mean you get to undress in the girls change room because it is something the other girls are not yet ready to understand. What was not done was to give your child a place to do what made him happy while not making others unhappy and uncomfortable either. I still think the daycare acted inappropriately but at the same time be careful about expecting them to put adult feelings and beliefs onto all the children. Not really sure what the law is here when it involves children. I get that as an adult I am expected to compromise but as a parent I would be upset about a boy in the change room or bathroom at the same time as my daughter who is still in the learning that it is not ok for boys and girls to do certain things together and learning modesty and to appreciate her own body - she is not ready to appreciate a boys body in the room in the same vein. You don't say how long your child was in the daycare. As soon as his desires became known and the teachers made it clear that they were not able to accommodate the situation given the set up of the room/attitudes of other parents etc. I find it hard to believe that the medical team looking after your child could not come up with an alternative. In most provinces there are also home daycares that can accept subsidy children. As well most areas have a transgendered support group and there may very well have been someone in that group able to care for your son temporarily for the same fee as you were paying while you looked for something different. NO matter what the "laws" say, sometimes the accommodations available just are not what you would like to have. For sure the teachers were afraid and needed more training and support from the mental health unit and not just from you as the mother asking for special treatment. My responsibility is to all of the children and while I would do my best to explain the situation I know many would have a hard time since there is so much separation between boys and girls in school.

Cadillac
08-27-2013, 08:01 PM
I'm so sorry you have had such a negative experience. It make my stomach hurt that your son would have to go threw so much. He will get through it. I'm so glad to hear that you have a great team to help you out. I've never personally dealt with gender dimorphic 'disorder' but have worked in the mental health field with children for years before starting a daycare.

Go after the facility. I think that certain 'teachers' should absolutely be help responsible for what they have put your son through. Do whatever needs to be done to raise awareness.

DO NOT give up on care for your children. There will be others around that are sensitive to your situation and will embrace your son for whoever he wants to be. There are great daycares and bad daycares whether licensed or not. This is a terrible situation.

Good luck

move to Toronto! He would be highly embraced and there are great schools and support for people in your situation

Momof4
08-27-2013, 08:09 PM
TwinsPlusOne, your story made me cry for your little child. How horrible. Best of luck, lean on all the doctors, sounds like you need a lawyer, check into it all. We can sympathize and tell you that you have been wronged, but you need the professionals to help you now.

Skysue
08-27-2013, 08:53 PM
I can't understand how a parent would allow a 5 year old to make a decision on being transgendered? My 5 year old doesn’t even know that word.

Most 5 year olds know the difference between boys and girls and the rest is simply innocence on just being a 5 year old.

http://www.huffingtonpost.c om/2013/06/24/coy-mathis_n_3488306.htm l

after reading this article I somewhat understand better and I'm sorry that your child has been treated poorly. I would do everything to protect my child from this crazy hateful world. I wish you all the best!

playfelt
08-28-2013, 06:46 AM
To answer the original question: Be very sure that you are pursuing legal action for the right reasons. Your child will always come up against controversy and the fact you have found a good placement means you can move on. Think twice whether rehashing the past is worth it or not. Much of what went on will be known only to children which will not be considered credible witnesses and in fact anything your own child has to say will be taken with mitigated belief so it may all be for naught anyways.

I am beginning to think that some of this is more about you and your acceptance than it is for your child. It is as if you want to make a point/spectacle to prove to yourself that everything is ok. If you were truly invested in your child's happiness you would have used the pay from those days you took off to remove the ONE child from that placement and put them where they would have been happier - that you could have afforded. Life will be hard for both of you but do not make this fight about you.

ladyjbug
08-28-2013, 07:30 AM
I am going to have to agree with Playfelt and Judy here, sad to say. Look, I don't agree at all with what is happening to your son. I think it is horrible that he is being made to feel that way everyday at a place that is supposed to care for him. That being said, I cannot condone YOUR part in continuing to send him knowingly to that environment every day. Subsidy would have no part in my decision and the money argument you are making does not ring true to me for the following reasons.

#1) Did you not have to take off work to meet with specialists/professionals to get your diagnosis in the first place? Most specialists I know do not have hours outside business hours. If you have the availability to take off work to get your son a diagnosis, wouldn't you take off work to guarantee his emotional safety while securing a new care situation?

#2) As a mother, I could not ever be okay with knowingly leaving my child in an abusive situation. No matter what the reason. In a legal battle, a judge or lawyer is likely going to ask why you continued to bring your child to a care situation once you knew it was harmful to him. Your answer did not ring true me, and I doubt it will ring true to them.

#3) A legal battle is EXPENSIVE. If missing three days of work (which is all you have left in your last week at this center) is unthinkable to you, then how will you afford a lawyer that will likely cost thousands of dollars and a case that could take months?

Sorry, that's my take on it. I don't agree at all with what is happening to your son, and I am sorry that situation is happening to you. But I cannot at all condone you continuing to bring him knowingly to a care situation that brings him harm.

PattyCake
08-28-2013, 08:49 AM
I agree with reporting the daycare to the human rights tribunal because its your right as a Canadian citizen to file a complaint for violation of human rights. I don't think you'll get very far in pursing legal action for any sort of monetary compensation though. The judge will see that you kept your child in that environment knowing full well his human rights were being violated and likely throw out your case.

playfelt
08-28-2013, 08:59 AM
As with any child with special needs, a teacher can not be expected to know everything about every issue. How much information did you obtain from your medical support team and share with the teachers/director of the centre etc or did you just assume too many things.

The other thing that is not ringing true for this story is the "information" that your child shared with everyone. So traumatized by daily events they couldn't tell you anything when you asked how was your day today honey and just act out instead but then later for medical appointment could recite days times, who said what, etc. Something isn't working for me with your story, sorry.

Sandbox Sally
08-28-2013, 09:05 AM
Two things. Well, three.

OP, I'm sorry that your son is facing such difficult mental health issues at such a young age. :glomp:

It's transgender, not transgendered. The trans community is pretty adamant on this. Not picking, just making sure you're using the correct terminology.

Third thing - have health care professionals informed you that your son is suffering from trauma from his treatment at the daycare, or could it be a culmination of his body issues, reconciling things in his head etc? I am not saying this is the case, just wondering if you've been for sure looking at the correct source of his trauma.

Also, Skysue. You're AWESOME for informing yourself about something of which you were uncertain. Kudos to you! :)

Good luck with everything OP. You sound like you're taking all the correct steps to get your child the help that he needs. That's amazing.

Judy Trickett
08-28-2013, 09:05 AM
Yep, I'm going with Playfelt and LadyBug. Honestly, I feel for your child IF he really is going through something of his OWN making. But I also can not condone your choice in leaving your child in an environment you admit to knowing was harmful to him. You can make all the excuses you want - the fact is YOU knowingly left your child in the care of someone who treated him badly.

Good luck with a legal battle. Just to get to court will take about five years and a nice legal bill of around $100,000. And then you can look at around $5000 per DAY for every day you are in court. Going to court costs A LOT of money, not just in legal/lawyer fees but fees for experts, reports, etc. That daycare has insurance and insurance companies are very good at keeping their money. Insurance companies can, and DO, hire good lawyers in an effort to NOT have to lose in legal battles. Because losing sets a precedent and precedents cost insurance companies money. A daycare would pretty much have to have killed or seriously physically maimed a child (for life) in order for them to even think about settling given what you have admitted to doing - sending your child in an attempt to save money.

Judy Trickett
08-28-2013, 09:13 AM
I want to further add that this thread spurns me. :mad: This is another classic example how the daycare is always the one found at fault. What about the parents and the role they play?

I am NOT saying the daycare didn't act negligently. I have NO idea what the daycare did or did not do as I have not had the opportunity to hear their side of things. But I HAVE read/heard the parent's side and the parent admits to knowingly and willingly continuing to send her child to an environment that was harmful to him. Where is the PARENTAL responsibility in this? Why is it always JUST the daycare's fault?

Time and time again I see parents or media reports about "bad" daycare but when you look into it further there is almost always a parent who KNEW of or was aware there were problems but continued to send their child.

It's time parents started taking responsibility too. And it's high time society started to hold them accountable.

You say the daycare wasn't acting in your child's best interest. Well, NEITHER WERE YOU! How could you possibly expect a daycare to love and care for your child more than you? This is YOUR child, not the daycare's child. YOU should be putting his needs and quality of life first, above and beyond ANYONE else.

Skysue
08-28-2013, 12:03 PM
No money in the world we keep me from sending my child anywhere that is a threat to there well being. Most parents with children with special needs make huge sacrifices for the greater good of there child.

Home schooling is the choice I would make!

jammiesandtea
08-28-2013, 12:20 PM
I am of the same mind as Judy, playfelt, mimi, and ladyjbug. If the treatment of your son was so abusive, bullying, and "against the human rights code", how can you possibly stand there and justify your CHOICE to send him there for ONE MORE MINUTE after finding out???

I don't want to hear subsidy or money. Don't even use those kinds of words in the same sentence when compared to the love and sense of protection you should have for your son as his mother.

I'm also unclear as to you and your husband's work situation. You mention in your 2nd post, clarifying your child's issues, that you "quit your "real" job a year and a half ago to care for my dying mom". Does that mean you are still currently not in the workforce and are caring for your mom? If so, couldn't other family members help out there so that you could have stayed with your son rather than send him to an abusive daycare, or couldn't he have come with you?? (not an ideal situation but better than a daycare who is supposedly causing him mental trauma?)

Regardless of whether you are currently working or providing care for your mom, you have not given a valid reason to ever justify choosing convenience or money over the well-being of your son, whether for a few weeks, a day, or an hour.

I sincerely wish for health and happiness for your child.

daycarewhisperer
08-28-2013, 01:34 PM
Don't you wish now they would have just told you NO! NO we will not call your daughter a name other than the name she was enrolled under. NO they would not tell the daycare kids to call her a boy or use male pronouns when referring to her. NO they will not train or even share this with the staff.

NO

This would have ended the enrollment immediately right?

There comes a time when a child care business can be special needed right out of business. It would have been better for the business to tell you NO from minute one and told you that they will not even meet with you again regarding this than face the consequences of what has happened since. All the accusations and emergency mental health crisises would have been on someone else's clock if they would have told you in no uncertain terms that they would not... could not... and will not consider what you believe your daughter needs.

Take the civil rights repercussions. That will be years away before anything is settled and it will give TIME to save to defend and TIME to test the law. Be more afraid of a suing mother for what you won't do rather than what you did do.

playfelt
08-28-2013, 01:48 PM
Early Childhood has rules that apply to everyone. I don't care if you call your child moe or buttercup or appledumpling at home. At school he or she will be called by the name on their birth certificate or a childlike version if requested ie Sammy for Samuel or Billy for William. If a name change has already been picked then as the parent you are free to get the birth certificate legally changed and then your child will be called the name on the certificate - end of problem. It is not the school's requirement to change their policy to accommodate you - it is your responsibility to get the birth certificate changed to the name you desire your child to be called to meet the enrolment policy.

Similar arguments for most of your other concerns but I think you get the point.

SLD
08-28-2013, 11:40 PM
I cannot fathom leaving a child in a situation where they are treated as you say. So you would owe money.. so what? Take him out anyway and fight the fees.

You won't get anywhere suing this daycare. You're better off to focus your energies on your child.

TwinsPlusOne
08-29-2013, 12:53 AM
To answer the original question: Be very sure that you are pursuing legal action for the right reasons. Your child will always come up against controversy and the fact you have found a good placement means you can move on. Think twice whether rehashing the past is worth it or not. Much of what went on will be known only to children which will not be considered credible witnesses and in fact anything your own child has to say will be taken with mitigated belief so it may all be for naught anyways.

I am beginning to think that some of this is more about you and your acceptance than it is for your child. It is as if you want to make a point/spectacle to prove to yourself that everything is ok. If you were truly invested in your child's happiness you would have used the pay from those days you took off to remove the ONE child from that placement and put them where they would have been happier - that you could have afforded. Life will be hard for both of you but do not make this fight about you.
I only get $200 a month from my parents for spending 10 hour days 5 days a week. It's all they can afford. On my husbands income we cover bills, rent, food ect... We are lucky as my moms doctor fought for us to get full subsidy. We don't pay anything for our daycare. I could not afford it otherwise, and if my mom was in a old age home she would die in a week as she needs 24h care to make sure she doesn't asperate. Unfortunately I do not have extra money lying around and couldn't pull him out. I'm just lad he has only 2 days left.

TwinsPlusOne
08-29-2013, 12:54 AM
I am going to have to agree with Playfelt and Judy here, sad to say. Look, I don't agree at all with what is happening to your son. I think it is horrible that he is being made to feel that way everyday at a place that is supposed to care for him. That being said, I cannot condone YOUR part in continuing to send him knowingly to that environment every day. Subsidy would have no part in my decision and the money argument you are making does not ring true to me for the following reasons.

#1) Did you not have to take off work to meet with specialists/professionals to get your diagnosis in the first place? Most specialists I know do not have hours outside business hours. If you have the availability to take off work to get your son a diagnosis, wouldn't you take off work to guarantee his emotional safety while securing a new care situation?

#2) As a mother, I could not ever be okay with knowingly leaving my child in an abusive situation. No matter what the reason. In a legal battle, a judge or lawyer is likely going to ask why you continued to bring your child to a care situation once you knew it was harmful to him. Your answer did not ring true me, and I doubt it will ring true to them.

#3) A legal battle is EXPENSIVE. If missing three days of work (which is all you have left in your last week at this center) is unthinkable to you, then how will you afford a lawyer that will likely cost thousands of dollars and a case that could take months?

Sorry, that's my take on it. I don't agree at all with what is happening to your son, and I am sorry that situation is happening to you. But I cannot at all condone you continuing to bring him knowingly to a care situation that brings him harm.

Please see my last response.
Legal action will be with human rights tribunal where I will not have to pay to take action

TwinsPlusOne
08-29-2013, 01:05 AM
I am of the same mind as Judy, playfelt, mimi, and ladyjbug. If the treatment of your son was so abusive, bullying, and "against the human rights code", how can you possibly stand there and justify your CHOICE to send him there for ONE MORE MINUTE after finding out???

I don't want to hear subsidy or money. Don't even use those kinds of words in the same sentence when compared to the love and sense of protection you should have for your son as his mother.

I'm also unclear as to you and your husband's work situation. You mention in your 2nd post, clarifying your child's issues, that you "quit your "real" job a year and a half ago to care for my dying mom". Does that mean you are still currently not in the workforce and are caring for your mom? If so, couldn't other family members help out there so that you could have stayed with your son rather than send him to an abusive daycare, or couldn't he have come with you?? (not an ideal situation but better than a daycare who is supposedly causing him mental trauma?)

Regardless of whether you are currently working or providing care for your mom, you have not given a valid reason to ever justify choosing convenience or money over the well-being of your son, whether for a few weeks, a day, or an hour.

I sincerely wish for health and happiness for your child.
No one else can help out with my mom. I'm an only child and have no other family.
Money is an issue. I could not afford having this daycare charge me. I could not afford them to go after me.

I spoke with both the head teacher and owner mulipul times. I offered them free training through gender spectrum in sanfran... They offer free training and education to ANYONE who works with kids.
I took time off from taking care of my mom to go to apps for my child. It ment days my dad could not look for work, or take short term jobs (he is 67 and in IT, so finding work is hard at his age), and my mothers care costs well over a thousand a month and my father can only help me out a bit financially.

I'm sorry none of you have ever been faced with the idea of a daycare taking you to collections for pulling out your child. For me that's a scary thing as we are barely keeping our heads afloat and had litterly no way to pay that out of pocket.

And taking care of my mom is a job. I may be only paid pennies per hour but its a job none the less. It is work, and even though I'm family and not paid much it is a job... Just like how you run a daycare you don't "babysit"......

TwinsPlusOne
08-29-2013, 01:08 AM
Early Childhood has rules that apply to everyone. I don't care if you call your child moe or buttercup or appledumpling at home. At school he or she will be called by the name on their birth certificate or a childlike version if requested ie Sammy for Samuel or Billy for William. If a name change has already been picked then as the parent you are free to get the birth certificate legally changed and then your child will be called the name on the certificate - end of problem. It is not the school's requirement to change their policy to accommodate you - it is your responsibility to get the birth certificate changed to the name you desire your child to be called to meet the enrolment policy.

Similar arguments for most of your other concerns but I think you get the point.

Did you know on Canada what you just stated is ILLEGAL!
When a person is trans you have to accept and call them the gender they know they are not the birth gender... I pray to god you never have to deal with a trans person in your care

TwinsPlusOne
08-29-2013, 01:13 AM
Early Childhood has rules that apply to everyone. I don't care if you call your child moe or buttercup or appledumpling at home. At school he or she will be called by the name on their birth certificate or a childlike version if requested ie Sammy for Samuel or Billy for William. If a name change has already been picked then as the parent you are free to get the birth certificate legally changed and then your child will be called the name on the certificate - end of problem. It is not the school's requirement to change their policy to accommodate you - it is your responsibility to get the birth certificate changed to the name you desire your child to be called to meet the enrolment policy.

Similar arguments for most of your other concerns but I think you get the point.

Please look at what you have to follow in Ottawa... You can't discriminate against a trans child.
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-discrimination-and-harassment-because-gender-identity/8-services

TwinsPlusOne
08-29-2013, 01:15 AM
I cannot fathom leaving a child in a situation where they are treated as you say. So you would owe money.. so what? Take him out anyway and fight the fees.

You won't get anywhere suing this daycare. You're better off to focus your energies on your child.

I'm not going to sue, I'm taking them to the human rights tribunal. Difference is it does not cost me money. But hopefully I can protect another child from going through what my child has gone through and teach providers across Canada that its wrong, something a lot of you on this site just don't get

ladyjbug
08-29-2013, 05:00 AM
I'm still not really buying your story, sorry. It still comes down to money for you in all of your arguments, and you are putting the cost of daycare over the well being of your child. Any human rights tribunal and any judge worth their salt will still ask you why you continued to place your child knowingly into a situation that causes them harm. Once you were made aware of the situation, you are also doing something very wrong and you are also harming your child by continuing to bring them. I don't think the providers on here are misunderstanding this at all.

Why did you not put in notice at the daycare? The only way I can see a daycare trying to sue for collections would be if you did not follow the contract and tried to leave without paying. When I terminate contracts or parents terminate contracts, we need to give each other two weeks paid notice. I offer care during that time barring I am not ending the contract for extreme disrespect or threats, but lots of parents make the CHOICE to not send their child during that time. You have the same CHOICE as a consumer. You have the ability to choose a different daycare/kindergarten - you did that. You have the CHOICE to follow your contract and still protect your kid by not sending them while paying the notice period. You didn't make that choice. I DON'T GET THAT!

If you work at your mom's home in an informal setting, I don't understand why you couldn't set up a five year old in a different room with books and activities and a few movies so you could be near them for a few days and not have to worry about what is happening in the daycare situation. Yet, you still continue to send your kid, and then have the nerve to call us uninformed because we called you out on that decision.

I also have a 67 year old father and very involved grandfather in my kids' lives who works when he can get work. If one of his grandchildren was treated like this, he would never object to taking the kids for a few days so they wouldn't have to go back to a situation that causes them harm. He would be up in arms about it, actually. Well-being of children trumps money every time. Of course I would never make him make that choice, because as a mother, I could NEVER ever put my kid knowingly back into a situation that would cause them harm. Not for a minute. Not for a second. Even if I would be living on the street, I'd choose that over willingly sending them back to a harmful situation. Where is your husband in all of this? I am really concerned because it seems that no one else is upset about this human rights atrocity. If it is that bad, wouldn't others be stepping in? Wouldn't they want this child safe? The fact that NO ONE is stepping in, or is as upset as you are, or is totally cool with this kid finishing the week up in a daycare that you are planning to take a case to the human rights tribunal is messed up to me!

Your cause is noble. It is good that you don't want anyone else to go through what your child has gone through. But if you keep sending your child and make them endure this struggle everyday while you are trying to save a dime, it makes all your good efforts go out the window. You are also teaching your child that everyone else's struggle is more important than fighting their struggle, right here, right now at this moment. Your kid is right in front of you. Do right by them! Fight THEIR battle! Make them feel safe and heard RIGHT NOW and take them out of a situation you don't feel is right, and don't make them go back! Anything you have to say to a human rights tribunal will hold no water if you continue to let your kid suffer as you have stated they are suffering in this situation. That's not on the daycare. You are knowingly doing this to them, putting them in this situation day after day, and blaming money being the reason. Sorry, that's on you, and I don't think any of us are uninformed or "just not getting it" for saying that's just not right.

jammiesandtea
08-29-2013, 05:51 AM
I fully agree with ladyjbug, and quite frankly, your whole story, if true or partly true, smacks of a mother who is more interested in garnering attention for herself than in making her child's well-being her number one priority.

You've had numerous other options, though they clearly just didn't appeal to you or weren't convenient, but you could and should have sacrificed something else in order to keep your child away from the supposed mental trauma that this daycare was inflicting on them.

My nose is smelling a bunch of crap here. If the story is true at all, then as I said above, it smacks of a woman who puts getting attention, sympathy and drama for herself well above the well-being of her child.

I'm certainly not speaking for anyone else, but I AM saying what I know a lot of others are thinking.

Judy Trickett
08-29-2013, 06:32 AM
I fully agree with ladyjbug, and quite frankly, your whole story, if true or partly true, smacks of a mother who is more interested in garnering attention for herself than in making her child's well-being her number one priority.

You've had numerous other options, though they clearly just didn't appeal to you or weren't convenient, but you could and should have sacrificed something else in order to keep your child away from the supposed mental trauma that this daycare was inflicting on them.

My nose is smelling a bunch of crap here. If the story is true at all, then as I said above, it smacks of a woman who puts getting attention, sympathy and drama for herself well above the well-being of her child.

I'm certainly not speaking for anyone else, but I AM saying what I know a lot of others are thinking.

Oh, come on, Jammies.....didn't you read her last few posts? She has answers for everything. EVERYTHING! :rolleyes:

I guess we are all just wrong. We couldn't possibly see through the crap being mothers and daycare providers - you know, having been on BOTH sides of the spectrum. We know nothing. She knows everything. :yes:

daycarewhisperer
08-29-2013, 07:18 AM
No one else can help out with my mom. I'm an only child and have no other family.
Money is an issue. I could not afford having this daycare charge me. I could not afford them to go after me.

I spoke with both the head teacher and owner mulipul times. I offered them free training through gender spectrum in sanfran... They offer free training and education to ANYONE who works with kids.
I took time off from taking care of my mom to go to apps for my child. It ment days my dad could not look for work, or take short term jobs (he is 67 and in IT, so finding work is hard at his age), and my mothers care costs well over a thousand a month and my father can only help me out a bit financially.

I'm sorry none of you have ever been faced with the idea of a daycare taking you to collections for pulling out your child. For me that's a scary thing as we are barely keeping our heads afloat and had litterly no way to pay that out of pocket.

And taking care of my mom is a job. I may be only paid pennies per hour but its a job none the less. It is work, and even though I'm family and not paid much it is a job... Just like how you run a daycare you don't "babysit"......
So the taxpayers of Canada pay 2100 dollars a month for your kids child care so you can get 200 a month in payment for your moms care that would cost a thousand dollars a month if you didn't do it?

Why do they pay for your child care and accept that you are getting a dollar an hour? Aren't there wage laws in Canada? Seems they would be 900 bucks ahead if they paid the grand a month for your mom's care and had you stay home with your kids. That way your daughter could be called a boy name and be referred to with male personal pronouns all day every day.

playfelt
08-29-2013, 07:37 AM
It is also law in Canada - heck most places in the world, that you can't just pick a name out of the air and expect legal entities to use that name for driver's licence, SIN card, credit card, etc. unless you go to the trouble and expense of making it your legal name. NOT my job to change the rules. YOUR job to change the birth certificate of your child according to their wishes.

Momof4
08-29-2013, 07:44 AM
Whether we believe you or not, we cannot help you. If I had this much sadness going on in my life I would not be on a forum stirring up more drama in my life. I would be concentrating on setting up a support system with my family, good friends, doctors, lawyer or legal aid professional, psychiatrist, etc. If you are in Canada you have access to doctors and medical health professionals who are on OHIP or the equivalent in your province. Start concentrating your efforts on healing your family and moving onward and upward.

daycarewhisperer
08-29-2013, 07:59 AM
I don't have a problem have a girl child wear boys clothing and play boy games and say they feel like they are a boy. What I have a problem with is FORCING a child care to endorse it by calling a child a different name and referring to a girl as a boy. I can't even imagine telling a class of three to five year olds that because this girl child FEELS she is a boy then we all have to call her a boy.

When the child enrolls the parents are required to fill out forms that give the legal name and a physical that states whether the child is a boy or girl. Why is the child care required to ignore these? The child IS a girl. Until a legal name change has been offered the name is the name.

I worked on a Psyche unit years ago and had many mentally ill patients who believed they were Jesus. They would have preferred we call them Jesus and The Lord and obey them but we didn't. They weren't Jesus. They weren't in a position to force staff to mind them. They were in a locked facility receiving treatment that included addressing their delusional thinking.

Where does it cross the line into supporting something that just isn't true. FORCING society to call a girl a boy and making bathroom accommodations so she can join the boys is going way too far.

Expecting that the staff is trained to understand she wants to be a boy and wants to be called a boys name is one thing. Forcing them to play along as if she is and train the staff and PRESCHOOLER kids that she is is redoinkulous.

bright sparks
08-29-2013, 08:56 AM
So what you are saying Daycarewhisperer is that all people who feel they have gender misidentity are delusional? You are comparing this to someone with a severe mental health issue such as personality disorder or schizophrenia which is like apples and oranges. Not the same. Gender Identity disorder is not just a psychological disorder but a biological, genetic issue also, so to compare a mental health patient who is delusional thinking they are Jesus with someone who has both the psychological factors and biological make up to back up the misidentity is just pure ignorance. You said yourself that you worked in Mental health years ago. Theories and treatment have evolved since then and what was then, is now outdated and ineffective. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and while they are definitely okay to voice on this forum I have to speak up when someone such as yourself who claims to be so knowledgable in all things childcare related, makes such an awful comment inplying that this child is infact mentally ill and needs treating as though there is actually something wrong with them that needs to be cured or fixed. Perhaps offering advice versus criticism and strong negative comments would be more productive in helping this woman.

The law states (and I paraphrase in a big way) that a child should be allowed to have whatever gender they identify with to be how they are treated or addressed. It's irrelevant at this stage the legalities of SIN numbers, credit cards or drivers licenses. For goodness sake this is a child. Those legalities need to be addressed as they get older but are not a reason to not respect the wishes of the child and their families wishes right now regardless on your stance on the subject. Racism isn't tolerated so prejudism of any kind shouldn't either. So what, you don't agree what their gender identity is, who cares, this is about them, not you. Yes it is a difficult subject to discuss with such young children but its because it is a taboo subject and society has labeled it as strange and different and it's easier to ignore it and hope it goes away, than to take a deep breath and find the courage to make change. Maybe if it was talked about more often it would mean a less ignorant future generation who would be more accepting of differences. You don't like it? Well you don't have to, but show them respect like everyone else. Would it kill you to be a little supportive instead of so objective for a change.

This started out as a post about taking legal action on a touchy subject. I believe there is info missing and like anything written in a post, sometimes vital pieces of information are overlooked or left out due to the OP feeling overwhelmed and emotional. I think whoever suggested leaving the forum, I think Momof4, and putting all their efforts into finding resources that will help her and her child is the best route to go. I think sueing is a lost course but it doesn't mean by any means this parent should be quiet. I believe that the child is the priority here regardless of anybodies belief in GID, but also this parent needs support and help to be able to offer the best support and guidance for the child. I know the truth can be hard to hear and can be harsh, I've been there, but to interject some compassion into people's advice would also be productive. Also giving advice to someone on a subject that most have no first hand experience with based on their own ideologies and sometimes sheer ignorance is not helpful to anyone. It just causes more stress and conflict. Just my two cents, by all means, fire your attacks back at me :)

mimi
08-29-2013, 10:20 AM
Bright Sparks, you hit the nail on the head IMO. Well done. The comparison of a transgender person to a delusional person made me gasp.

jazmic
08-29-2013, 10:31 AM
I know the truth can be hard to hear and can be harsh, I've been there, but to interject some compassion into people's advice would also be productive. Also giving advice to someone on a subject that most have no first hand experience with based on their own ideologies and sometimes sheer ignorance is not helpful to anyone. It just causes more stress and conflict.

Indeed. Well said.

SLD
08-29-2013, 10:37 AM
I'm not going to sue, I'm taking them to the human rights tribunal. Difference is it does not cost me money. But hopefully I can protect another child from going through what my child has gone through and teach providers across Canada that its wrong, something a lot of you on this site just don't get


Right, the no money route.

YOU put your child through what they have gone through. YOU failed to protect your child from a provider you claim was abusive. Can you include yourself in your claim?

Forget all of this nonsense and put your child first. Sometimes it isn't about a cause.. it's about looking after your own. Once your own child is settled, then go ahead and take on the cause. Don't put the "cause" ahead of your child.

playfelt
08-29-2013, 10:47 AM
I think from the standpoint of the age of the child we are having a hard time figuring out exactly what the problem is. I do not have boy toys or girl toys just a playroom. I encourage boys to dress as a princess and a girl to dress as a dragon, etc if it pleases them and they want to try on other roles. PreK/K is when children explore what life is all about and where they fit in.

I have one bathroom and everyone uses it including me. Many K classrooms are the same.

As far as the name goes we have never been given that piece of information. Children don't pick their names parents do. As an adult we can change our name if we want to. So the parent helping the child to change the gender sound of their given name has never been mentioned here. Besides kids don't come to school with a list of boy/girl baby names memorized anyways and will accept any name for any gender and many are interchangeable anyways. Variations of a name have long been acceptable in school as children are named after relatives but given a derivative to distinguish them from the older relatives they are named after. Rarely is a child named Mary after a grandparent and then called Hazel unless that is the given middle name. I am not debating how legitimate the feelings are in the child but what I am opposed to is that the child is being given control over issues that no other child ever has so why should they be allowed. ie fine you want to look like, dress like, act like, be named like the opposite gender fine but parents determines the perameters allowable not the minor child. That is what the teachers were in essence objecting to.

Children in prek/k still often mix up pronouns, genders, etc. and mostly we just let it all slide. So even if the teacher calls the child by the desired gender it is up to the kids to pick up on the fact of what the teacher is doing not for the teacher to sit everyone down and lecture them on calling the child he/she just as the teacher at this age does not correct a child from calling another child with the wrong pronoun unless asked.

That is where we feel this discussion has gone of the rails - just what is expected of the classroom teacher/children. We accept everyone and do not make a spectacle of them which includes not making them the most important centre of attention in the room - just letting them function as one of the group in the way that is meaningful to them.

daycarewhisperer
08-29-2013, 11:31 AM
So what you are saying Daycarewhisperer is that all people who feel they have gender misidentity are delusional? You are comparing this to someone with a severe mental health issue such as personality disorder or schizophrenia which is like apples and oranges. Not the same. Gender Identity disorder is not just a psychological disorder but a biological, genetic issue also, so to compare a mental health patient who is delusional thinking they are Jesus with someone who has both the psychological factors and biological make up to back up the misidentity is just pure ignorance. You said yourself that you worked in Mental health years ago. Theories and treatment have evolved since then and what was then, is now outdated and ineffective. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and while they are definitely okay to voice on this forum I have to speak up when someone such as yourself who claims to be so knowledgable in all things childcare related, makes such an awful comment inplying that this child is infact mentally ill and needs treating as though there is actually something wrong with them that needs to be cured or fixed. Perhaps offering advice versus criticism and strong negative comments would be more productive in helping this woman.

The law states (and I paraphrase in a big way) that a child should be allowed to have whatever gender they identify with to be how they are treated or addressed. It's irrelevant at this stage the legalities of SIN numbers, credit cards or drivers licenses. For goodness sake this is a child. Those legalities need to be addressed as they get older but are not a reason to not respect the wishes of the child and their families wishes right now regardless on your stance on the subject. Racism isn't tolerated so prejudism of any kind shouldn't either. So what, you don't agree what their gender identity is, who cares, this is about them, not you. Yes it is a difficult subject to discuss with such young children but its because it is a taboo subject and society has labeled it as strange and different and it's easier to ignore it and hope it goes away, than to take a deep breath and find the courage to make change. Maybe if it was talked about more often it would mean a less ignorant future generation who would be more accepting of differences. You don't like it? Well you don't have to, but show them respect like everyone else. Would it kill you to be a little supportive instead of so objective for a change.

This started out as a post about taking legal action on a touchy subject. I believe there is info missing and like anything written in a post, sometimes vital pieces of information are overlooked or left out due to the OP feeling overwhelmed and emotional. I think whoever suggested leaving the forum, I think Momof4, and putting all their efforts into finding resources that will help her and her child is the best route to go. I think sueing is a lost course but it doesn't mean by any means this parent should be quiet. I believe that the child is the priority here regardless of anybodies belief in GID, but also this parent needs support and help to be able to offer the best support and guidance for the child. I know the truth can be hard to hear and can be harsh, I've been there, but to interject some compassion into people's advice would also be productive. Also giving advice to someone on a subject that most have no first hand experience with based on their own ideologies and sometimes sheer ignorance is not helpful to anyone. It just causes more stress and conflict. Just my two cents, by all means, fire your attacks back at me :)

I'm not going to blast you. I agree with some of what you say. Where we part ways is how to manage this in a setting with little kids. I will not call a girl a boy. I will not address her or anyone around her relating to her as a boy. Aint gonna happen.

I think there will be precious few people in society who will offer that for free. They may find teams of folks to do it who receive money for it but precious few who will offer it without being paid.

What's wrong with the truth? What's wrong with acknowledging that the child feels or thinks they should be the other sex? That can't be done without lying to the child and other childrenm?

If this little girl gets a vaginal yeast infection her docs will document it as such. If she gets an ovarian cyst they will tell the truth in their diagnosis. She will have a life where despite what she wants or feels she will have the truth that she is a female. Those who serve her in public should not be expected to accommodate an untruth.

We should be open to her wearing clothing as she wishes as long as it is safe. She should be able to play to her interest. She should be able to refer to herself as whatever name she wants to say.

We shouldn't be expected to provide a therapeutic environment for her that agrees she is a boy when she is not. We shouldn't be required to have training for it. We shouldn't be trained to lie.

SLD
08-29-2013, 11:48 AM
We shouldn't be expected to provide a therapeutic environment for her that agrees she is a boy when she is not. We shouldn't be required to have training for it. We shouldn't be trained to lie.

I have to agree with this.

If this type of care is required then take them to someone offering special needs care, with someone who is trained for it. If this child is truly transgender then there is more to their needs than what name is used and if they are referred to as he or she.

momofnerds
08-29-2013, 12:17 PM
But does anyone else think this time line doesn't make sense. Acually the whole thing doesn't make any sense.

if your child was seen by a mental health dr. then they would be either admitted or an outpatient. Dr's wouldn't just call it a trangender and go about their business. They would recommend that you remove your child immediatley and get your child counseling.

and why would your mothers dr get you subsidy???? you have to apply for it like everyone else and you have to supply your income unless you are hiding something. Wouldn't you think that your childs dr would be the one trying to get you subsidy.

unless you change your childs name, your daycare provider will call your child by the name you wrote on the paper. You can't one day say "well we decided to change their name because the child wanted to be something else"

I had a child who I coached soccer, her parents wanted me to call her "bunny" (she was going into jk also) I called her by the name she was registered with, its great to have a nickname, but this child thought thats what her name was, well guess what, the school felt the same way and called her by the name she was regestered with, so now "bunny" is now only used at home.

also, if there was an issue, didn't you give the provider a dr's note or anything saying thats what the diagnoses was and how to help your child with the transition so you can work as a whole unit.

wait, your child is 5 now. Do they not go to school. Did they not go to junior kindy or kindigarten. What did the teacher do when you told her this, what did the teacher call your child.

playfelt
08-29-2013, 12:46 PM
I am having a really hard time with this too to the point of anger because I think we are being played. We all know how slowly the wheels of motion are and how backlogged mental health is so a child at 5 with "issues" I'm sorry but isn't the highest priority on the appointment screen because initially it will be passed off as a phase. I am also thinking the poster may be US not Canada given the issues getting care for parent and subsidy that follows the child etc - not Canadian things. Timeline is just too messed up.

If child is so mature and articulate that they can talk to parents, doctors, psychologists, mental health team about the issues they are also able to "use their words" to talk to their own peers about wanting to be called he instead of she or treated like one of the guys or whatever. Then if the peers ask the teacher for help that is when the teacher steps in.

bright sparks
08-29-2013, 01:38 PM
I will not call a girl a boy. I will not address her or anyone around her relating to her as a boy. Aint gonna happen.

This is your right in a home daycare to do so, but it does not mean it is right or best for this individual. It is simply what is best for YOU and what makes YOU more comfortable with the whole situation.


I think there will be precious few people in society who will offer that for free. They may find teams of folks to do it who receive money for it but precious few who will offer it without being paid. I don't think they would find teams of people who would do it for money either. It is not societies "norm" money has nothing to do with it. Children are generally dealt with and taught to as a single model and anything outside of that "norm" makes them a special need. The child is different from the norm and the real problem is that the teacher/caregiver is not educated or equipped to meet the child's needs but the child and their family will always pull the short straw whether they be autistic, 2e, or any other type of psychological issue which does not fall under this model and have to look outside of regular schooling or care because those settings are not sufficient. This is a whole other subject, so lets not open that can of worms but you get what I'm saying I am sure. It's complicated and not clean cut.


What's wrong with the truth? What's wrong with acknowledging that the child feels or thinks they should be the other sex? That can't be done without lying to the child and other childrenm? You just think it can't be done because you don't have the answer. Complicated? Extremely! But don't quit before you try. How detrimental to the child. They are the ones who suffer at the end of the day.


If this little girl gets a vaginal yeast infection her docs will document it as such. If she gets an ovarian cyst they will tell the truth in their diagnosis. She will have a life where despite what she wants or feels she will have the truth that she is a female. Those who serve her in public should not be expected to accommodate an untruth. A TG person acknowledges that they have the body of a specific gender, but do not feel that they are psychologically so. There's no untruth there. Adult TG people live, dress and refer to themselves as the opposite gender than their genitalia defines them as but do not necessarily deny the physiology of their body, but gender is far more than the gentialia inbetween a persons legs, but rather the gentic makeup beyond that, which is scientifically proven, and the role that they psychologically identify with personally rather than what society puts on them. I know you lot like proof and reference so if you insist I can pull up some info.




We shouldn't be expected to provide a therapeutic environment for her that agrees she is a boy when she is not. We shouldn't be required to have training for it. We shouldn't be trained to lie. Again there is no need to lie, that being said, I sure as hell don't have a clear cut answer as to how to tell a young child on a level that they can grasp. I do however think that this shouldn't mean we push these children away or treat them how WE PERSONALLY see fit because WE don't know how to deal with it. That is not THERE fault it is OURS. We really owe them respect and understanding and try to accommodate them like any other person with a special need.

There are providers, and centres more so in urban centres who are quite capable of running inclusive programmes where they are able to efficiently and effectively accommodate the needs of many whether they be TG, Gifted, Or anywhere else on the spectrum of "special needs" or "exceptional". I'd pretty much bet that those places do not charge more per day for the TG child, than for the Hetro child. Is nobody paying attention to the suicide and depression rates of these children? It's because people either can't help them, won't try to help them or want to fix them. There is nothing wrong with them the way they are only the way society treats them.

bright sparks
08-29-2013, 01:39 PM
Sorry folks, my quoting skills are not great :)

Judy Trickett
08-29-2013, 01:46 PM
Sorry folks, my quoting skills are not great :)

Can you fix it? It's really hard to read.

Rule of thumb.....

Beginning of quote =




Ending of quote = the same as above but with a / in front of the word quote. I can't actually write that out or it will "quote" what I just wrote! LOL!

If you hit the edit button you can go back in and amend those quotes.

[quote]

bright sparks
08-29-2013, 01:56 PM
Can you fix it? It's really hard to read.

Rule of thumb.....

Beginning of quote = [quote]



Ending of quote = the same as above but with a / in front of the word quote. I can't actually write that out or it will "quote" what I just wrote! LOL!

If you hit the edit button you can go back in and amend those quotes.

Ok will do thanks :)

bright sparks
08-29-2013, 02:03 PM
Oh My Goodness, I actually made my post worse, twice before it got better. Lol Thanks for the pointers Judy.

mamaof4
08-29-2013, 04:43 PM
I am locking this thread so we can stop beating a dead horse. There are children who identify as transgender, maybe we all haven't come across it, but it happens.

Maybe this parent sincerely felt she was doing the best she could- judging and attacking have no place here. Offering advice sure, but kindly.