Ontario Caregivers - daycare announcement due today

[crafty]

Well it's done ! My letter is sent out .Tonight I am working on info. for my families. Thanks Treeholm for editing :)

''Dear Members of the Legislative Assembly,


As a private ''unregulated'' home daycare provider, it is with great concern I am writing to you today regarding the current proposition of BILL 143. From my understanding this bill stipulates;


1- An unlicensed home daycare quota of children allowed IN CARE allows for 5 children, INCLUDING this home daycare provider’s own children IF UNDER THE AGE OF 6. If my understanding is correct than I will have to TERMINATE CARE for one of my families as I currently care for 4 children (excluding my own). After discussing this matter with an official at the ministry, there will be no ''grace'' period or grandfather clause for children already in care. I wonder ... How many more families will be forced to take unscheduled holidays from work as their daycare provider is NO LONGER OPERATING LEGALLY? Is there a plan for these families? To whom should I refer them?


I also FAIL to see the reasoning behind this particular rule. I understand the need for safe regulations, but I've been managing and caring for 6 children between the ages of 1 and 4 for the past 2 years and I must say this is my ideal situation. The income permits me to buy quality foods, extra crafting materials, safe and new materials, and to get updated training in CPR or other classes. Also the fact that I can care for an EVEN number of children helps me pair them in age groups and monitor activities, as well as learning abilities, closely and adequately. So, how did this number 5 came into play; how was it determined to be ideal and why?


Furthermore, this will decrease my income drastically on very short notice and may actually force me out of this business. I wonder if there has been a poll taken. To just how many more families this will happen and what has been, or will be, put in place to support them?


I do agree our current system and laws require a serious and effective change. It is very sad and unacceptable that we have let so many fatal tragedies happen in private home daycares. We need better monitoring, clearer laws, rules, and guidelines. I just fail to see this particular one actually making a positive difference. Did most of these fatal tragedies not happen in already ILLEGAL daycares with other safety issues than the actual current quotas? In which of these situations was a daycare fatality caused by an unlicensed daycare with the legal current number of children in care? If people seemed to be misinformed about the current law, how will the government ensure its population is aware of this new one? Only one of my families is aware of this upcoming new legislation and no later than this morning, I informed a potential client of it as well as two fellow daycare providers. Which tells me... not enough has been done to INFORM or EDUCATE or RESEARCHED


- The second issue I have with this BILL 143 is again regarding quotas. No more than 2 children under the age of 2 (I assume 24 months and under) can be cared for. This tells me that there will be a huge decrease in spaces available for children under the age of 2. If this comes to pass and is effective immediately, a lot of families will be left with no proper daycare services. Do we have a plan for these families with no childcare services? Where do I refer the clients I will need to refuse and terminate. Many schools are now offering preschool at 3.5 years old. That leaves business such as mine with very limited client prospects as well. I again fail to see how this suggestion has been determined ideal?


3- Where is the incentive to BECOME licensed. I believe these changes were put in place to make licensing more appealing to private home daycares; sorry to say that again, I fail to see it. Would we not want everyone to become licensed and monitored closely? That's how we prevent fatalities in my opinion; however, my local agencies’ policies have not changed. Although I would be allowed ONE more child, the percentage of fees taken by the agency does not cover the loss of one space. That's not even looking at unpaid vacation time, extra insurance coverage.... both of which factor in immensely. As for government licensing, the building requirements, and the zoning requirements are not feasible. I live in a rural community. My house is a century home, it has updated plumbing, and heating, etc. but was not built with the same regulations as today’s homes. The cost of renovations, I assume, would not be worth it.


What looks most appealing right now is remaining unlicensed and raising my fees drastically, which will affect local families as well.


To sum up, the future if this business looks fairly gloomy and raise lots of concerns about whether it will even be feasible anymore. I have 2 children under the age of 5 and hopefully one on the way soon; however, with the future of my main income in jeopardy I question now my decisions regarding my home daycare business and family's financial situation. I urge you to revisit this legislation and consider the pitfalls if may bring. Children safety should not be taken lightly, however do these changes really address the issue ?''

[Fun&care]

I was also thinking about alerting parents on my waitlist so they know there may not be care for their infant in a yr

I was thinking about doing this too. It could open some parents eyes.

[bright sparks]

Hello Everyone!

I have read quite a few posts on here on this subject. Frankly, like the rest of you, this has me worried for my family and many other families! It's like a big snow ball affect, if what I'm reading is accurate? We the daycare providers will have to raise our rates considerably, in order to have only three children in our care (with the three under three ratio) and the 4 and 5 year olds in KG. Then the families in turn, will no longer be able to afford daycare?!
I read a few months back that there is very limited daycare spots in Canada as is, now they are going to implement regulations that will only allow private unlicensed daycares really only three children?! Then if again I am correct, those stay at home Mums that have children at home, have to count their own children? I'm sorry, but it's not going to work for many reasons. As most of you already know and realize, most us then will have to shut down due to not making a reasonable living, and a lot of parents will be without daycare and therefore loose their jobs?!
Why change something when it has always worked? Yes, we have few people who should never work with children and therefore should be shut down.....but like with anything else in life, you have your few bad ones...so having said that, the ministry should be able to and do come and make surprise visits, I know I had one. Therefore they should just hire more inspectors and make sure ALL day cares run well. THAT is the only answer, as I see it.
The onus was on the ministry to close that horrible unfit day care down, and they did not, when apparently they were called a few times?! Now our livelihoods have to suffer for their lack of due diligence?! It seems to me that the government is not seriously considering all the facts?! I believe we the day care providers and all the daycare parents should get actively involved in this too, to make them aware of ALL the ramifications, and if we do, and they consider everything and we ALL work together, everyone will win, especially the children who we care for! Let's stop worrying and find out what we can do, and get our day care parents involved too!
One thing I would like to mention, I saw this coming a while ago and I have spoke about how the government will try to have their hands in our pies so to speak, meaning they will likely try to make money off of us, the lil guys, let's not let that happen! Let's get involved and make a plan to get involved! The first thing any of us should be concerned about is the safety of our children that we care for, and as I have mentioned, the only solution as I see that will work is to hire more inspectors! Secondly, not to make day care more difficult for parents and for us, the well meaning day care providers who are also trying to make a living! If anyone has any ideas how we can get actively get involved, please let us know.

Just to correct you Jilly, the new bill is for 2 under 2 not 3 under 3 as many of us originally thought.

[Jilly]

Love love!! You should send it everywhere

Well said!

[Jilly]

Ok so we are allowed 2 under 2, but then what about the rest of the 3 children? So when does this start and can we therefore have the other three children 3 and over? Sorry I find this confusing....

[Artsand crafts]

Ok so we are allowed 2 under 2, but then what about the rest of the 3 children? So when does this start and can we therefore have the other three children 3 and over? Sorry I find this confusing....

The only age limit so far is 2 under 2 for unlicensed and licensed home daycare. Unlicensed daycare can have up to 5 kids INCLUDING your own (your own will not count in the numbers if older than 6yo). Licensed HDC can have up to 6 kids including your own. Licensed HDC means that you work for an agency.

[momofnerds]

ok, not sure if this is true or not, but on the one site they said we may be able to grandfather in our kids (sorry dck's) if we have contracts with them with no end dates. Its the facebook site, so just incase make sure all your contracts are up to date and anyone signing kids for next year, get them to sign this year, you never know.

[Jilly]

Well said!

[crafty]

ok, not sure if this is true or not, but on the one site they said we may be able to grandfather in our kids (sorry dck's) if we have contracts with them with no end dates. Its the facebook site, so just incase make sure all your contracts are up to date and anyone signing kids for next year, get them to sign this year, you never know.

I sure hope so but when I spoke to the ministry, this was in NO WAY an option.

[bright sparks]

Ok so we are allowed 2 under 2, but then what about the rest of the 3 children? So when does this start and can we therefore have the other three children 3 and over? Sorry I find this confusing....

2 under the age of two and then the other three can be 2 and up.

[Jilly]

Thank you for the clarification! :)

[Jilly]

Honestly I think they should crack down on their own daycares too! I worked for a "Licensed day care " and you somehow don't see it in the news all the abuse that goes on there and all the racism!

[momofnerds]

I sure hope so but when I spoke to the ministry, this was in NO WAY an option.

of course the ministry is going to say that, because they are pushing for black and white, not inbetween

[Mama of 1]

I want to know why the college of ECES is doing nothing to support us

[gravy_train]

This might be obvious but if we remain unlicensed will we be obligated to follow the rules and safety regulations in the DNA?
Again, my concern is that I would have to close regardless of the number of children I care for because I have a swimming pool. I am not willing to get rid of my pool and am definitely not going to risk a safety violation fine that could cost me my house!

[sunnydays]

Yesterday I sent a shwack of emails out. I just received this from Jim Grieve:




Thank you for your letter and for taking the time to write to me and to the Ministry of Education to express your views about the early years and Bill 143, Child Care Modernization Act, 2013. These topics are priorities for our ministry and for the government.



At this time, Bill 143, Child Care Modernization Act, 2013 is still subject to legislative approval. If passed, the proposed legislation would permit informal child care providers to care for a maximum of 5 children and would require that informal providers adhere to the same age restrictions as licensed home-based child care (i.e. caring for no more than 2 children under 2 years of age) and include their own children under the age of 6 when determining the total number of children being cared for on the premises.



If the legislation is passed, changes to the child care sector can be implemented in an incremental and gradual process to support a smooth transition to reduce disruptions to service to families. This can include notifying families, child care providers and child care partners of the upcoming changes and providing time for the sector to adapt.



As part of the legislative approval process, members of the public will have opportunities to express any feedback regarding the proposed legislation at the Standing Committee Hearings. For more information as to how to participate in the legislative process, please visit the Legislative Assembly of Ontario website at:



http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/home.do





or call the Procedural Services Branch at (416) 325-3500.



Again, I appreciate the time you have taken to express your views, and I encourage you to remain engaged with the legislative process. Working together, I’m confident we can make progress in achieving Ontario’s early years vision.





Sincere regards,



-------------

Jim Grieve

[sunnydays]

This comforts me. They are not going to make the changes effective immediately. It seems we will have some time and this is not over yet. Keep writing those letters!

[KingstonMom]

Yes that does sound like they will not expect this to take place immediately which would be ridiculous.

[Wonderwiper]

Gravy train...while attempting ( ha ha) to follow the proceedings on the legislature website, it lists this bill as a repeal of the DNA to be replaced with this new act. I take that to mean the DNA would be void and the new act would take over.

[gravy_train]

So what do you think that means for those of us with pools?

[momofnerds]

So what do you think that means for those of us with pools?

we become babysitters. I just put a 8 foot fence around mine with alarms and none of the kids ever go outside without me.

[gravy_train]

So do you think it will be illegal for us to operate as unlicensed daycares?

[treeholm]

okay, I have a pool as well, but I haven't seen anything anywhere in the proposal about pools? I don't have to become licensed, and it's only the licensing agencies that are so sticky about pools, right? I already know I won't qualify to be licensed. Not interested in making changes to get licensed so I can pay an agency for nothing... I filled before I opened and stopped taking names for a wait list because it was ridiculously long. I see no incentive whatsoever to become licensed.

[treeholm]

On another note, I did post something on my facebook page. I am a bit surprised at the responses I am getting from young Moms. They are saying that it will not be a problem because there are lots of daycare spaces available, and of course, unlicensed daycares should not be allowed... they would NEVER put their child in an unlicensed daycare! I bet they have no idea that I'm not licensed LOL. These are people who would certainly trust me with their children... they just hear "unlicensed" and see the 27 kids in the daycare in Toronto. They cannot understand why I would "stick up" for unlicensed daycares!!! Hmmm... because I AM ONE??? Wow... if parents are already convinced this is a wonderful thing, then I guess I will just stop trying to warn parents they better make sure their spot for their one year old is safe...

[gravy_train]

I haven't seen anything in the proposal either but I am concerned that we will have to adhere to the same safety regulations as licensed daycares.

[sunnydays]

Gravy Train, I am not sure how they would enforce that. If you are not with an agency, there will be nobody out there inspecting your home. I suppose if the pool thing were included in the Act and somehow the general public became aware (not that likely) then neighbours could report you. Otherwise, I don't think I would be overly worried. But who knows really!

[playfelt]

This was posted on a group I am on on facebook - with all of the hassles we have had of getting insurance how will those allowed 6 be able to get any insurance:

Quote: "when I was with the agency here in London I had to provide and pay for my own home childcare ryder insurance and provide them 'proof' it was not covered by the agency ... so that is a valid point that adding the 6th child will do no good if you cannot find insurance for more than 5 children ... so either the insurance industry would have to amend their policies OR agencies would be forced to provide group coverage which is going to end up resulting in even HIGHER fees to parents cause that cost has to be covered somewhere"

[cfred]

On another note, I did post something on my facebook page. I am a bit surprised at the responses I am getting from young Moms. They are saying that it will not be a problem because there are lots of daycare spaces available, and of course, unlicensed daycares should not be allowed... they would NEVER put their child in an unlicensed daycare! I bet they have no idea that I'm not licensed LOL. These are people who would certainly trust me with their children... they just hear "unlicensed" and see the 27 kids in the daycare in Toronto. They cannot understand why I would "stick up" for unlicensed daycares!!! Hmmm... because I AM ONE??? Wow... if parents are already convinced this is a wonderful thing, then I guess I will just stop trying to warn parents they better make sure their spot for their one year old is safe...

Whaaaaatttt??? LOL!! I'd be really interested to know where all these spaces are. I'm sure the people on my waiting list (who are on multiple waiting lists) would be interested to know as well. Where do you live? Narnia? If so, send my missing socks back please ;)

Sorry, not to make light of it, but Jesus, seriously? It just shows you what a bunch of sheep the general public is. They really have no idea how this system works and that the vast majority of us are unlicensed...not just the bad ones. I was trying to explain to my mum the issues surrounding licensing and why most of us aren't. She had a really hard time wrapping her head around the fact that going through an agency doesn't mean that the provider is licensed...only the agency is. It took a good 10 minutes to make her understand. Then I had to explain why I couldn't really take her up on her suggestion of getting licensed myself. By the end, she could see where, really, we're completely buggered. This is a system that does not work for the providers in any way, shape or form. Someone mentioned earlier that they wondered why the CECE hadn't stepped up to help us out. It is my belief that they're not there to help us. They're there to hold us accountable. I stopped my membership with them because I saw no value in it what-so-ever. I'm greatly offended that now I can't even claim to be an ECE because I didn't conform. I'll go back now out of necessity, but very grudgingly.

Ugh.....ok, rant done. I forget where this post even started. Oh yeah....the young mums who haven't been hit where they live yet. Bahahahaha! That'll be interesting to follow. When they approach you for care Treeholm, don't forget to rub in the fact that you're unlicensed ;)

[treeholm]

Whaaaaatttt??? LOL!! I'd be really interested to know where all these spaces are. I'm sure the people on my waiting list (who are on multiple waiting lists) would be interested to know as well. Where do you live? Narnia? If so, send my missing socks back please ;)

Ugh.....ok, rant done. I forget where this post even started. Oh yeah....the young mums who haven't been hit where they live yet. Bahahahaha! That'll be interesting to follow. When they approach you for care Treeholm, don't forget to rub in the fact that you're unlicensed ;)

The young Mom who told me there are plenty of spots is in Ottawa. I am not in Ottawa, so I really can't respond... but she said there were tons of daycare spaces in Ottawa. I suggested they were probably spaces for 2 and 3 year olds.

[treeholm]

The other young mom who said she would NEVER send her child to an unlicensed daycare, and this legislation is wonderful, is in the GTA.

[Fun&care]

On another note, I did post something on my facebook page. I am a bit surprised at the responses I am getting from young Moms. They are saying that it will not be a problem because there are lots of daycare spaces available, and of course, unlicensed daycares should not be allowed... they would NEVER put their child in an unlicensed daycare! I bet they have no idea that I'm not licensed LOL. These are people who would certainly trust me with their children... they just hear "unlicensed" and see the 27 kids in the daycare in Toronto. They cannot understand why I would "stick up" for unlicensed daycares!!! Hmmm... because I AM ONE??? Wow... if parents are already convinced this is a wonderful thing, then I guess I will just stop trying to warn parents they better make sure their spot for their one year old is safe...

You really oughta clue them in and tell them you are unlicensed and that 80% of kids are in unlicensed home daycares. That should do it. People really have no clue, it's so hard to get them on our side when they don't understand what's going on.

[treeholm]

Nope, they see me as an old alarmist grandma LOL. I am not going to convince two young women who know they are right and I am clueless... I'm satisfied that I sounded the alarm... if they don't heed the warnings, I won't feel badly that I didn't try.

[Spixie33]

I was just trying to read through the actual bill proposal and it looks like they are proposing that anyone who stays unlicensed would have to disclose that they are unlicensed and have the parents sign off that they are aware that their provider is unlicensed.

It seems kind of like branding unlicensed caregivers with a scarlet letter.

12. (1) Any person who does not hold a licence shall, before providing child care in a circumstance described in paragraph 2 or 4 of subsection 6 (3), or, if relevant, in subsection 6 (4), disclose to the parent of the child, in a manner that may be prescribed, that the person does not hold a licence.

Duty to retain record of disclosure

(2) A person who makes a disclosure in accordance with subsection (1) shall retain a record of the disclosure in a prescribed manner for at least the prescribed time period, or if no time period is prescribed, for at least two years from the date the disclosure is made.

[treeholm]

But even people who are registered with an agency are unlicensed, it is the agency who is licensed, right? So all home daycares would have to sign this, wouldn't they?

[Spixie33]

But even people who are registered with an agency are unlicensed, it is the agency who is licensed, right? So all home daycares would have to sign this, wouldn't they?

My understanding is that the provider themselves is licensed.
I took a daycare course through York Region and they were heavily urging all the providers to get licensed. They said you would have to submit floor plans, fire plans, measurements of your property line and fence, have fire inspector come, etc and then pass the licensing requirements. That is how you would get licensed and then you could go with an agency. I know licensed providers who still take on their own clients though

[Artsand crafts]

I was just trying to read through the actual bill proposal and it looks like they are proposing that anyone who stays unlicensed would have to disclose that they are unlicensed and have the parents sign off that they are aware that their provider is unlicensed.

It seems kind of like branding unlicensed caregivers with a scarlet letter.

12. (1) Any person who does not hold a licence shall, before providing child care in a circumstance described in paragraph 2 or 4 of subsection 6 (3), or, if relevant, in subsection 6 (4), disclose to the parent of the child, in a manner that may be prescribed, that the person does not hold a licence.




That could be to address what some providers are doing when they call themselves licensed, when they are working for an agency. I have seem several ads of home daycare that claim to be licensed.

I don't have any problem explaining potential clients that I am not licensed (or work for an agency) and the benefits they are getting for me being unlicensed. It has not been an issue so far for the ones who ask for an explanation about the differences and this is a though area for providers since most parents are looking for licensed daycare centers and live-in nannies.

[Artsand crafts]

My understanding is that the provider themselves is licensed.
I took a daycare course through York Region and they were heavily urging all the providers to get licensed. They said you would have to submit floor plans, fire plans, measurements of your property line and fence, have fire inspector come, etc and then pass the licensing requirements. That is how you would get licensed and then you could go with an agency. I know licensed providers who still take on their own clients though

I worked for an agency and never have to do any of that. I've never had to apply for a license myself since they do not exist for individual providers. I just had to sign an agreement with the agency and they were the ones with a license. You don't even need to have any childhood related education because theoretically they have ECE's supporting and guiding you (of course, it sounds fancy but not quite the reality)

[playfelt]

We will actually be able to use the ratio to our advantage because there will always be one less child in an unlicensed home meaning our time is not spread out as much.

We all know that will make absolutely no difference but to a mom of a baby it could be a bargaining chip for us to use.

[Spixie33]

That could be to address what some providers are doing when they call themselves licensed, when they are working for an agency. I have seem several ads of home daycare that claim to be licensed.

I don't have any problem explaining potential clients that I am not licensed (or work for an agency) and the benefits they are getting for me being unlicensed. It has not been an issue so far for the ones who ask for an explanation about the differences and this is a though area for providers since most parents are looking for licensed daycare centers and live-in nannies.

What do you tell them are the advantages for having an unlicensed provider?
I have had that question posed to me from a parent once and I blanked out. All I could say was something about how licensing isn't a 247 safety net because inspections only come sporadically.

I know dozens of reasons how unlicensed care benefits me and my business and gives me a lot of freedom in terms of who I take on and what I charge....but what are the benefits to a parent?

[Artsand crafts]

We will actually be able to use the ratio to our advantage because there will always be one less child in an unlicensed home meaning our time is not spread out as much.

We all know that will make absolutely no difference but to a mom of a baby it could be a bargaining chip for us to use.

I didn't get what you are saying. Could you explain more? Thanks

[Spixie33]

I worked for an agency and never have to do any of that. I've never had to apply for a license myself since they do not exist for individual providers. I just had to sign an agreement with the agency and they were the ones with a license. You don't even need to have any childhood related education because theoretically they have ECE's supporting and guiding you (of course, it sounds fancy but not quite the reality)

Hmmm that's strange. The course I took was through York Professional Care. They license home daycares and also have daycare centres in York Region. They say on their website that they make all their providers do the following :
Each York Professional Care & Education Provider has been thoroughly checked and has completed the following steps for approval:
Agency screening – interview for suitability, personal reference checks for competence, home visits for safety, fire inspection and verified police clearance
Minimum 25 hour Provider Orientation Training Course
Child related First Aid and CPR Course
Proof of good health for herself and all members of the household and assurance that they are free of communicable diseases and have proof of a TB test
Compliance with all health and safety standards in her home as set forth by the Fire Department, Public Health Department and Provincial legislation


I knew a sweet girl who was trying to get licensed through them and all the fencing measurements, inspections etc were taking so long that she finally decided to go unlicensed.

[FSD]

I'm glad you asked that Spixie33...I was actually going to but you beat me to it! I want to be prepared with good reasons in case my current families ask me just that....TIA!

[momofnerds]

1. someone mentioned about insurance, I know of 2 companies that will insure up to 5 children. 6 children no way. So someone has to send this out to the goverment, they just don't have insurance for up to 6 kids.

2. so my 15 yr old is taking civics and I was telling her about this bill (she wants me to print it out so they can have a discussion on it) she was telling me all the steps it takes for a bill to pass. And its a long one. So just because it passes the first 3 readings, means that it goes to the next level. Tommorrow I will get her to tell me the whole thing and how the bill passes, but even she said it does take a while.

3. I refuse to licensed. I did it when I first started 10 yrs ago and it was a joke. I refuse to get paid sqaut for my services. And all they did was push to go to their center for play dates so they can see how I interact with the children. So when I went I couldn't believe that they weren't shut down. I think the goverment needs to clean their own house before they come and clean mine.

[Spixie33]

I didn't get what you are saying. Could you explain more? Thanks

Sorry if I answer...
I think she means that we would have an advantage because we would only have 5 kids : 1 provider
vs a licensed provider who could have 6 kids :1 provider

Parents usually like small provider :kid ratios so we would look better on paper in that department

[momofnerds]

also when I went thru an agency, it was wierd that they wanted to make sure that my fridge temp was set to a certain level but didn't care what I fed the kids. Their surprise visits were to sit and chat and annoy me and the children. also the tb test, really because why would I need one but no one else in my house or the parents dropping them off, they also didn't help when their was a problem.

[playfelt]

When we go through an agency the parents are bound by the rules of the agency too. When we work independently the parents and I work out a plan together. The parent retains more control over what they want for their child. It allows me to be more flexible in working with a family such as hours, fees, changes to the schedule. The fee is generally lower since there is no middle man taking a cut.

Then go on to show what you have that means you don't need it from the agency such as your own equipment, toys, forms, experience, trainings, workshops you have taken, the support system you have in place such as CCPRN.

I also talk about how the home visits are more disruptive than productive (I speak as having been with an agency in the past but prefer to work independently so I can better meet the needs of the parents) in the sense of because they are unannounced we would be in the middle of baking or reading a story or playing a game and then the doorbell disrupts it all and the pleasure of the activity is lost. The event is then spoiled for the child and that is not fair.

I talk about my years of experience and how when a caregiver is first starting out that for sure it helps them to have someone to show them what to do. (Makes the parent feel that they would be getting less by going with the agency - and truthfully in many cases they are as those that get tired of giving up money for nothing in return become private.)

Anything you can say that makes it that their child will lose out or the parent will lose out or lose control generally sways them to at least consider.

Being unlicensed is something we should be proud of and as far as disclosure a nice paragraph in my all about me section of my contract or somewhere in the parts the parent signs will satisfy the requirement - parent read, knows, understands and signs off on it right.

This is in my contract now which in a way already satisfies the new requirement although this section is for info and does not get an actual signature on the page so will also put it somewhere on the other forms:

2) I have experience working for a licensed dayhome agency both in Alberta and Ontario and am aware of the Ministry guidelines for family daycare. However, I found many of the “rules” confining. I realize that no two families are the same and therefore have unique needs regarding the type of childcare required. Working on my own allows me greater flexibility in forming a partnership of care with each family.

[Artsand crafts]

What do you tell them are the advantages for having an unlicensed provider?
I have had that question posed to me from a parent once and I blanked out. All I could say was something about how licensing isn't a 247 safety net because inspections only come sporadically.

I know dozens of reasons how unlicensed care benefits me and my business and gives me a lot of freedom in terms of who I take on and what I charge....but what are the benefits to a parent?

I basically tell them that I would not be able to afford what I currently offer for the benefit of their child if I worked for an agency (and explain that agencies take a huge part of their fee since for most parents that is transparent and haven't given it a though). I tell them that it would be impossible for them to find what I offer with a "licensed" provider since they would not be able to afford it because of their reduced income.

[momofnerds]

I also think that children over the age of 4 shouldn't count in ratio's anymore because they are in school all day. They need to think about this too. If kids are in school all day how can they be counted in ratio when they are not physically here.

[Artsand crafts]

Sorry if I answer...
I think she means that we would have an advantage because we would only have 5 kids : 1 provider
vs a licensed provider who could have 6 kids :1 provider

Parents usually like small provider :kid ratios so we would look better on paper in that department

Got it! Thanks! That's a great selling point too!

[Artsand crafts]

Agency screening – interview for suitability, personal reference checks for competence, home visits for safety, fire inspection and verified police clearance
Minimum 25 hour Provider Orientation Training Course
Child related First Aid and CPR Course
Proof of good health for herself and all members of the household and assurance that they are free of communicable diseases and have proof of a TB test
Compliance with all health and safety standards in her home as set forth by the Fire Department, Public Health Department and Provincial legislation


Yes to the above, but that is done by the agency that holds the license.

Fire inspection: it was a fancy name to push the fire alarm button (and rarely asking about the fire extinguisher in the kitchen) when agency lady came for their monthly visit.

25 hour Provider Orientation Training Course: In my case it was around 1 hour orientation by the agency where a lady read some parts of the manual she left with me. I think you could learn much more from these kind of forums that from that manual.

Compliance with all health and safety standards in her home as set forth by the Fire Department, Public Health Department and Provincial legislation: Agency gave me a 2 or 3 pages safety checklist that covered this. I think most of it is common sense. I went above and beyond the checklist requirements since I am very cautious regarding liability. One mom that needed back up care with other providers from the same agency (when I wasn't available)told me that she felt some places were not safe (and still they were following the agency safety checklist)

[Artsand crafts]

Their surprise visits were to sit and chat and annoy me and the children... they also didn't help when their was a problem.

These I hated, too. I thought it was just a wast of time someone just seating there and chatting. If parents knew about it I don't think they would be that impress with the agency visits

[Artsand crafts]

Hmmm that's strange. The course I took was through York Professional Care. They license home daycares and also have daycare centres in York Region. They say on their website that they make all their providers do the following :
Each York Professional Care & Education Provider has been thoroughly checked and has completed the following steps for approval:
Agency screening – interview for suitability, personal reference checks for competence, home visits for safety, fire inspection and verified police clearance
Minimum 25 hour Provider Orientation Training Course
Child related First Aid and CPR Course
Proof of good health for herself and all members of the household and assurance that they are free of communicable diseases and have proof of a TB test
Compliance with all health and safety standards in her home as set forth by the Fire Department, Public Health Department and Provincial legislation


I knew a sweet girl who was trying to get licensed through them and all the fencing measurements, inspections etc were taking so long that she finally decided to go unlicensed.

I checked their webpage and it seems they are a licensed agency and they also own daycare centers. They have 2 sections in their webpage one for parents interested in their daycare centers and another for parents interested in their "licensed" home daycare.

http://yorkprofessionalcare andeducation.ca/ChildrensEducational Programs.php

http://yorkprofessionalcare andeducation.ca/HomeChildCare.php

[Teagansmom]

It looks like the legislature did not get a chance to do the second reading yesterday. It's expected to go for the 2nd reading on Monday.

[Woodsy]

I have a random question/comment:

Does anyone know if there is any information on the # of children who have been seriously injured or died while in unlicensed care verses the # in licensed care... there has to be some percentages that would be "mind blowing"

For example, say there are 100 000 children in daycare in Canada, licensed and unlicensed combined.

Of those 100 000, 80 000 are in unlicensed care and 20 000 are in licensed.

of those 80 000 in unlicensed care say 10 were seriously injured or died while in care, this equals 0.0125%

Of those 20 000 in licensed case say 2 were seriously injured or died while in care, this equals 0.01%

Thats pretty equal in %...

Anyone have these # so it can be compared?

[treeholm]

There is also a difference between unlicensed and illegal. I am NOT in the same category as the place in Vaughan where they had 27 children. I am unlicensed but adhere to the law.

[cfred]

That's the issue I'm having with this whole thing. It's truly unfair that we're all lumped into the same category. I feel that we've all been vilified by the media. The government, I believe, has stood by and let it happen without any word whatsoever in this regard because it takes the heat off them for a job very poorly done on their part. Regardless of the rules in place (some of which I agree with, some I don't), this is just another instance in which we are shown as providers, once again, that there is no one in our corner. After 20 years in this business, both licensed and unlicensed, not much has changed. We still don't have any protection. We still don't have public or government support. We still are not valued in any capacity of the business. The fact that a garbage man has more earning potential than those who raise this country's children is a very sad commentary of where we stand in the pecking order.

[SecondAve]

Remember to sign the online petition, comment on it, get everyone you know to do as well. There are MPPs in the province now following it. Make sure to contact those MPPs as well and tell them how the new legislation will impact you. http://www.thepetitionsite. com/934/677/379/parents-caregivers-against-the-proposed-childcare-modernization-act/

[sunnydays]

I looked at the petition, but it requires us to enter our full address and name. I wasn't comfortable with entering that information online. Also, if it's the same one I looked at, there were some spelling/gramatical mistakes in it that I thought made it seem a bit unprofessional (no offence at all toward whoever wrote it).

[SecondAve]

I looked at the petition, but it requires us to enter our full address and name. I wasn't comfortable with entering that information online. Also, if it's the same one I looked at, there were some spelling/gramatical mistakes in it that I thought made it seem a bit unprofessional (no offence at all toward whoever wrote it).

Completely agree with your concerns, but it seems it is all we have right now. So many people I know have already signed and/or commented on it. This is my livelihood, so I have no issue posting my name on a petition. Keep in mind there is the option to hide your name on the site as well.

[gravy_train]

this is the thread concerning the proposed legislative changes

[bright sparks]

This is related so bear with me...

I was at the salon on Saturday morning having a makeup application. The lady doing it was asking what I did and so we started talking as she has her 2yr old with a home daycare provider. I was talking about all the changes and she was very surprised at the current law being max 5 kids and explained that her provider has 7 all at once and I clarified that they were all under 10. When I explained that her daycare was not only ILLEGAL but also most certainly UNINSURED, she just said, "Oh but I love my provider and she has been doing this for years." OMG I almost choked and had it not been for the other people there, I probably would have told her flat out what an effin disgrace she was.

Oh there's more....

I talked about the new ratio for 2 under 2 in the new act and we talked about how that's not even the ratio in centre care and that I was not 100% sure what the ratio was in centres but I thought it was 1 to 3 and the client behind me piped in that this was correct, as she is an ECE working in a centre. We were talking about how awful the news was about the death of the child in Vaughan and this cheeky cow proceeded to tell everyone in the room how this happens ALL THE TIME in UNLICENSED settings. Well I had to use everything I had to contain my rage. I immediately said that that was complete nonsense and that these incidents are tragic but extremely rare. I really got her told, I was so annoyed. If I thought I could have kept my wits about me I would have reminded her that it wasn't that long ago that the media were reporting a license daycare centre where the staff held the children down at naptime, but I had to calm myself down so I didn't start shouting at this bitch.

I was infuriated enough by the woman who dismissed legitimate reasons to report her provider and seek legal and fully insured childcare, but then to have this flipping woman spewing lies about our industry made me want to actually shut her up with my fist. I was sat with clenched fists and shaking I was so angry. The slanderous people out their badmouthing our industry should not be allowed to get away with spreading lies to innocent people. It is hard enough for parents to leave their children as it is without having these false horror stories in their heads by morons.

Rant over!

[playfelt]

If any of the children in the home belong to the provider then she is probably legal having 7 - at least by the standards in place today.

Next thing we need to work on is how to get our message out to the families about childcare. All they see is that there are no controls on us and that we are labelled as illegal even though we are not. There is so much misunderstanding out there. We need to figure out some sort of public awareness campaign to enlighten the world and in so doing remind them they are giving up their right to have any say in what happens with their young children.

[Fun&care]

That's terrible bright sparks...I was seeing red just reading your post! A big THANK YOU to the media for saying such horrible things about home daycares, and putting us ALL in the same category as a woman who killed a child. Honestly now that this whole thing has hit, I have realized that once my youngest is in school I'm outta here. I am so discouraged and saddened by what the media has put out there. Honestly when I opened my daycare I really thought I would be in this for the long haul as I LOVE it, but it's just not worth it when EVERYONE ELSE thinks YOU'RE not worth it. I've been feeling like garbage over this whole thing. I am still somewhat in shock at how we were attacked instead of supported through some new training programs, or a registry as was proposed by the CCPRN. This whole thing has just been a slap in the face and I hate it. We don't deserve this.

Rant over.

[bright sparks]

If any of the children in the home belong to the provider then she is probably legal having 7 - at least by the standards in place today.

Sorry I had meant to put that I clarified that none of the kids were either hers or over 10. Of course I know that some of these kids could have been hers and would never either jump to conclusions or bad mouth a woman without all the facts. That's I why I very clearly asked her those two things.

[gravy_train]

I just read that the second reading of the bill will be this Thursday, February 20. Has anyone heard anything?

[bright sparks]

I just read that the second reading of the bill will be this Thursday, February 20. Has anyone heard anything?

Would you mind sourcing where you read this? Ty :)

[gravy_train]

I read it on the message board of another daycare provider's group where I am a member. You can verify at ontla.on.ca but their server appears to be down at the moment.

[playfelt]

Here are some things I have found - on the legislature site only found the agenda for today not what will be in the future as it is set each day based on how far they get. This about all I could find in a search and most I think is speculative rather than concrete.

http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/atkinson/UserFiles/File/Policy%20Commentarie s/AC_response_to_Bill_ 143-1.pdf

http://www.durham.ca/departments/social/childcare/operator/newsletters/2014/Jan2014.pdf

[gravy_train]

Thanks, playfelt - i was able to log on to the provincial site and see that the second reading isn't scheduled yet. Here's the link to check in on;

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?loca le=en&BillID=2913&detailPage=bills_det ail_the_bill

[gravy_train]

Oh - the first of playfelt's links (produced by the Atkinson Centre for Society and Child Development says,
"Bill 143 passed first reading in the Ontario Legislature on December 3, 2013 and has been circulated for written feedback by February 28, 2014. Committee hearings for 2nd reading have not yet been established."

[playfelt]

I was wondering if that Feb 28 was the date they will start the debate.

I also got from the other site that the ministry plans to go ahead with the school changes and then the daycare centre changes no matter what the agreement is. It almost makes it sound like tacking home care onto the bill was an afterthought just to appease people and not the priority of the bill but bet it takes priority in discussions given the feedback we sent to MPPs.

[playfelt]

Did some more searching during naptime and here are a few interesting articles - not all of them positive or showing that they understand the bill but still nice to know where people stand on the issues: note that Andrew fleck is holding another info night

http://www.hpechildrenandyo uth.ca/2014/01/cysnetwork-news-exchange-100114/

http://www.cupe.on.ca/d2548/increased-ontario-government-oversight

http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-resumes-child-care-Unlicensed-Child-Care-Providers-Needed-Focus-Group-Feb-25th-W0QQAdIdZ564460843