Ontario Caregivers - daycare announcement due today

[playfelt]

This was shared with me this morning from another group - found this info online. It is now 9:32 on my computer so our future is being discussed as I type this:

http://news.ontario.ca/edu/en/2013/12/minister-of-education-to-make-child-care-announcement.html

[bright sparks]

Where will they post the announcement, do you know?

[mimi]

From what I read in the Toronto Star this morning (headline news) that the ON government is going to designate daycares affiliated (attached) to schools to become commercial daycares. This means they will have to follow the DNA and are not independent operators.

[Other Mummy]

From what I read in the Toronto Star this morning (headline news) that the ON government is going to designate daycares affiliated (attached) to schools to become commercial daycares. This means they will have to follow the DNA and are not independent operators.

This does not affect providers who provide care in their home. This is for the daycare centres which operate under the old 1990's loophole which allows them to operate as a "Home" daycare providers. This means they will have to operate (and be licensed, etc) as a commercial daycare.

Not sure what the announcement at 9:30am will be about. I'm sitting on pins and needles.

[playfelt]

From ON Minister of Education Liz Sandals press conference on modernizing child care, with thanks to Erin Anderson at the Globe and Mail for her tweets from the news conference. (NOTE: all announcements must be passed in the provincial legislature):

- Ontario proposes changes to daycare act, more space in licensed home day care, more power for inspectors, more care in schools
- school boards must provide before and after care for kids Grade 1-6, where need exists
- Licensed home daycare providers would be able to look after six kids (includes their own children)
- Unlicensed home daycare would only be allowed to look after five kids, and have to meet same age ratios and count their own kids
- Ontario education minister Liz Sandals suggests that over time the changes would create "thousands" of new licensed spots
- proposed new powers for inspectors to give big fines and shut down unsafe daycares "on the spot."
- "We are introducing huge teeth into the inspection process,” Education Minister Liz Sandals says of proposed daycare changes
- "There's a financial incentive right now to not be licensed. We are going to flip that.” Ontario Ed. Minister says
- Proposed law: fines for unsafe daycares rise from $2,000 to $100,000 and the province would not need a court order to do it
- With new law, inspectors could have shut down Vaughn daycare where 2-year-old died the day it happened, no judge needed

[playfelt]

So the increase for licensed care only matters if you are willing to take on another school aged child over age 6 which most of us are not.

There doesn't look to be anything addressing the fact kids come into care at age 1 now and not 4-6 months old which was the rationale for the 2 under 2 rule.

This is going to mean that we will be down to 3 kids including our own infants/toddlers/preschoolers and only be allowed a couple more such as our own JK/SK child. So those of us not doing school runs are out.

At the same time schools will have all the grade 1-6 kids so that leaves just the JK/SK kids in schools that don't have a before/after program.

Not really seeing the incentive to be licensed yet as the ratios mean there is no difference to now except for the loss of income and loss of independence in our program

[cfred]

Yep...if that all comes into effect, guess I'll be shutting down. I'll make better money bartending. Shame to have wasted my education.

[Fun&care]

There really won't be a difference in income then, considering agencies take about 10$ per day per child, if we are allowed one less kid...financially it ends up being the same am I correct?

I would also like more detail about "unsafe" daycares being shut down. Hopefully they come up with a specific definition of "unsafe".

I just don't get where all the 12 month olds are going to go now. They are not addressing the demand for care for this age range and that unlicensed daycares are taking these kids on because licensed places don't have spaces. They are basically cutting that off and it will leave parents with no care options.

Feeling pretty bummed out :(

[playfelt]

I think the unsafe part will be if there is a complaint like in the Vaughan case they can shut it down on the spot instead of calling in another ministry to do something.

[Sassygirl]

Guess I will either become a "casual babysitter" and tell that to all my parents so no more receipts or claiming anything. OR I will be closing and moving in with my inlaws LOL I am due in March with baby #5 and my next youngest is 19 months. What are the odds of me finding a 3 year old when they start school at age 3.
When does this come into play from a legal standpoint. Effective immediately?

[cfred]

I really, really don't understand the push to have everyone licensed. From things I've heard from various people's experiences with agencies (providers and clients) they really don't sound very good. The reviews have been mediocre at best. Most people don't even seem to understand that the providers aren't licensed...only the agency is. Why not a mandatory registry with inspectors attached to that? Why agencies? I'm guessing that aspect is just a great big money thing. I was especially impressed with the fact that they want to cap parent fees. So I can't even attempt to recoup some of the money lost in this mess. The 2 under 2 is going to absolutely put me out of business. I've been building this business for 13 years and have invested a bloody fortune into it, as I'm sure many of you have. I don't know about everyone else, but I could absolutely throttle those frickin' idiots who ran such crap daycares, hurt children and gave all of us a bad name. I'm absolutely livid!

[Fun&care]

I don't know about everyone else, but I could absolutely throttle those frickin' idiots who ran such crap daycares, hurt children and gave all of us a bad name. I'm absolutely livid!

This is exactly how I am feeling right now. And yes of course this is just a big money scheme that the agencies are behind. Honestly after all the crap in the news, and after the title"government cracks down on dangerous, unsafe daycares" I am at my wits ends. I am so tired of being demonized!

[bright sparks]

CityNews Toronto's article included this, I quote

"The opposition parties have said that the government needs to act against unlicensed daycares after two toddlers died in the Toronto area in July while in their care."

This makes me so mad as they just lump us all into one bag and say they have act against us like they are fighting a war ffs!!! How about working with us to improve unlicensed home daycares?? If we have to become licensed we should be entitled to the same subsidies and grants that the centres can apply for.

As for the ratios I actually haven't seen anything official with the ratios so if someone can post a link for verification then I'd appreciate it. Nowhere have I read or heard anyone talk about the effectiveness of the programs when there will be such big age gaps. The children's programming will likely suffer as it will be harder to accomodate the different developmental stages with one activity. 1 year olds and 3-4 yr olds don't even interact in centres so to increase this in home daycares is going to be problematic in my opinion. Doable for sure but far from ideal. And what happens when a child enters a new age group and throws our ratios off??? Do we have to give notice because then this whole thing will make it more difficult for everyone involved to have good quality, consistent childcare.

So stressed out thinking about it

[Sassygirl]

Me too.
I am fine with staying unlicensed and including my own children in the "5" ratio. I have 4 full time children so once my baby #5 comes in March one of my families is leaving anyway so I will be down to 3 plus my own 2.
I am looking for verification on the actual numbers as well. If that is the case effective immediately that it must be 1 under 1 2 under 2 etc than I will have to close bottom line.

[Fun&care]

I can't seem to find anything about age restrictions other than what was mentioned in this article

http://www.680news.com/2013/12/03/ontario-education-minister-to-introduce-changes-to-daycare-system/

"The changes would also force private day cares with more than five children under the age of four to be licensed."

[bright sparks]

Playfelts post said that even unlicensed would still have to meet the ratios

[Fun&care]

Wait a minute...found this one

http://read.thestar.com/?origref=https%3A%2F %2Fwww.google.ca%2F? origref=https%3A%2F% 2Fwww.google.ca%2F#!/article/529def04cb00713dfa03 237b-ontario-tightens-rules-governing-unregulated-daycare

The two under two rule is in there :(

[bright sparks]

Wait a minute...found this one

http://read.thestar.com/?origref=https%3A%2F %2Fwww.google.ca%2F? origref=https%3A%2F% 2Fwww.google.ca%2F#!/article/529def04cb00713dfa03 237b-ontario-tightens-rules-governing-unregulated-daycare

The two under two rule is in there :(

Thanks for that. I'd love to see a source besides the media at some stage but this is a start.

My kids are older than 10 so wouldn't effect my numbers in that way. There is suddenly going to be huge shortage of spots not only for infants under 12mths which there already is, but now also for 2 years and under. Also I'd be less inclined to take part timers as filling the other days would be difficult and a loss in income that I wouldn't be able to afford. I will also have to raise my rates and cut my programming costs in order to net the same amount. What a major ball ache this all is ((huff)) In Feb I will have a 2 1/2 yr old and a 16mth old, 21mth old and 2 x 12mth olds.

I'd be interested to see the number of parents who are suddenly without childcare the day this act is passed, and as a result the number of parents who are unable to find replacement care....what a mess!!

[Sassygirl]

Absolutely Bright Sparks! I am really curious where all these 12 months olds are going to go now considering that most providers have at least 1 currently in care.
What are these 80% of parents going to do now?

[Crayola kiddies]

So am I understanding this that if we stay unliscenced we can still have 5 but it includes your own (mine are in school so I don't care and I have a teacher family so those leave in the summer and I can insert my kids in their spots) .... And we can only have two under two. Is this right?

[Sassygirl]

Yes Crayola that is exactly right. 1 under 12 months 2 under 24 months including your own.

[Artsand crafts]

Lots of HDC have more than 2 under 2. How is the government going to help parents when we start dropping all the under 2's. They are putting parents in the middle of this mess. So I am now wondering how they ae going to help them when they are left without care.

I have 3 under 2. I will have to drop one. I will have to let go my assistant, stop serving organic meals, cut down in crafts, etc. and all this until I finish upgrading my skills to get out and find a job. If I'm lucky I will be left with 3 kids that don't need drop off and pick up from school (when following the rule of 3 under 3) . That means I will hardly cover my costs.

I am also wondering why aren't we allowed to have an individual license instead of having to work for an agency. I worked for Wee Watch the first year and I did not have any value added, but for sure they always took a big cut out of my income. Why would I want to do that again? Agencies have a cap on the fees. Currently I am charging more than agencies in my area. If I go to an agency I will make about $20 less per day per kid (after they take their cut).

[Crayola kiddies]

Yes Crayola that is exactly right. 1 under 12 months 2 under 24 months including your own.

Ok thanks .... The only time this affects me them is during the summer when school is out .... So I'm not overly concerned

[Artsand crafts]

The rule with agencies is 2 under 2 and 3 under 3

[kimg]

So am I understanding this that if we stay unliscenced we can still have 5 but it includes your own (mine are in school so I don't care and I have a teacher family so those leave in the summer and I can insert my kids in their spots) .... And we can only have two under two. Is this right?

I think so. But what about b/a school when your kids are home? Would that then put you over your limit??

This is absolutely going to affect me in a big way. I have two kids, one in half day SK and one that will be going to JK in Sept. I only have pt (seems to be the only need in the area), and I have f DCK. I'd have to get rid of 2, and tell the other three that they will loose their spots unless they want to pay for ft. Or raise rates. Either way, I either close, and the parents are out daycare, or I raise rates to keep my income consistant, and the parents get screwed. The parents are the ones getting screwed here.

And what about all these school aged kids during the summer when their board run care closes for 2 months?? Where are they going??

[Crayola kiddies]

my husband is home in the am with the kids and puts them on the bus ...they don't come down stairs to the daycare in the am and they get home 15 mins before I shut down.

[gravy_train]

This sentence has me worried: "Ontario will introduce legislation that gives inspectors new powers to close unsafe locations “on the spot” and give hefty fines to caregivers who break the rules"
Will we be given a list of safety criteria that we must ensure our daycare meets? My biggest concern is that I have a swimming pool so am fairly certain that I will not be allowed to continue my business (even though it is fenced and locked). Does anyone know if you can have a pool if you're licensed?
I was kind of bracing myself for this but was expecting the changes to be announced in the spring.
As for the ratios, I understand that the rule is one child under one two under two, etc. but is one defined as 12 moths, and two 24 months, etc?

[bright sparks]

Ok thanks .... The only time this affects me them is during the summer when school is out .... So I'm not overly concerned

Do you mind me asking you how many kids you care for and their ages right now. I am just interested in knowing how you make this business viable with all the restrictions. My kids are over 10 so they will never be an issue but I am wondering how you will stick within the ratios and still be full? Thanks

[FSD]

Well...this SUCKS! I have 4 under 2 yrs, 1 that will be 3yrs in January and my own 2 girls (6 & 4). Anyone know when this is all supposed to take effect?

[2cuteboys]

There really won't be a difference in income then, considering agencies take about 10$ per day per child, if we are allowed one less kid...financially it ends up being the same am I correct?

I would also like more detail about "unsafe" daycares being shut down. Hopefully they come up with a specific definition of "unsafe".

I just don't get where all the 12 month olds are going to go now. They are not addressing the demand for care for this age range and that unlicensed daycares are taking these kids on because licensed places don't have spaces. They are basically cutting that off and it will leave parents with no care options.

Feeling pretty bummed out :(

Your agencies charge $10/day/child???? That's obscene.

In AB our agencies are funded by the gov't through child and family services; it's really the only reason it actually works. I pay them $70/month, and $40 of that is insurance. It basically works out to $10/child/month, and I only have 3 kids (not including my own). I believe the agency staff is paid by the government, with the agency fees mainly going to admin stuff. They also run 6 PD trainings a year.

We're limited to 6 including our own kids, 2 under 2, 3 under 3. It does result in a lot of 1 year olds without care, but we still have non-accredited day homes with no restrictions on ages. One of my neighbours runs one and she's got mainly under 2s.

We also have levels of accreditation based on education and experience, and the government pays top-up wages to providers with agencies, up to $6.62/hr of time you have kids in your home. We also get $2500 (meant to be spent on things for the program, but it's not monitored) after the completion of one year (for the first two years), and a bonus for returning to child care after being gone for some period of time - it didn't apply to me so I'm not sure what the time frame is. I need to do a lot of work (submit meal and program plans, have monthly visits, attend PD), but the extra money FAR outweighs the extra hour it takes me a week.

Bottom line is if the government it going to go ahead with such tight restrictions, they need to cough up some incentive programs. They're going to have A LOT of providers jumping ship as it just won't be financially beneficial or feasible at all. What happens to the economy when a significant number of parents need to quit because they can no longer find or afford childcare? Not a good situation.

[jodaycare]

Does the minister actually understand what she is suggesting? With all day kindergarten starting as young as 3 3/4, how are we supposed to meet ratios? Fortunately, my daughter is 20 so wont count. I will choose to stay unlicensed but if I have to follow the two under two etc, I will just raise my fees so that I can afford to have less kids. This plan is just going to make daycare more expensive for parents. They need to change the ratios to take Full day kindergarten into account.

[cfred]

Yeah, my kids are older too, so that doesn't affect me. Like you, if I stay open, I'll likely jack up the rates too. Also, ethically raised meats, premium veggies/fruits will have to go....back to budget shopping for sure. Craft supplies and equipment will be pared back and all those little 'niceties' I've always looked after (such as wipes, sunscreen, meds, epipens on site, lunches out and other free excursions. It's a shame.

These are just proposals though, correct? Just because they're proposed doesn't necessarily make it so....at least not right away. Really, can you imagine the economic repercussions of a sudden action? There's no way. The province just can't support the back lash. I love the idea of a registry and independent inspectors hired for the job. Bring it on! All these proposals are nothing more than a very thinly veiled agenda in favour of agency care. Surely they'll look at different options, not necessarily what's being proposed today. I'd like to believe that people are smarter than this.

[jodaycare]

Here is another article

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/870725/unlicensed-home-daycares-in-ontario-oppose-regulation/

It basically says that all home daycares will be forced to join an agency! If that is the case I will close. So annoyed that I have put more than 20 years into my business, and now my hard work and education is going to waste! I don't think I could ever go back to working in a centre!!!

[Crayola kiddies]

Do you mind me asking you how many kids you care for and their ages right now. I am just interested in knowing how you make this business viable with all the restrictions. My kids are over 10 so they will never be an issue but I am wondering how you will stick within the ratios and still be full? Thanks

sure .....current enrollment I have 12.5 months, 22 months, 2 yrs 1 month, 2 years 8 months, 3 years 1 month

I think that keeps me legal

[torontokids]

No, you have 4 kids under 3 yrs old. It probably wouldn't come into effect that quickly though so your 2.8 will be 3 soon enough but as it stands now, you would have to get rid of one

[gravy_train]

What I think is so frustrating is that we have to rely on media reports to keep us updated on changes that will effect not only our livelihood but also the children we care for everyday. I can only imagine the scramble that will ensue when private daycare providers have to start 'cutting' children from their group.

[cfred]

Here is another article

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/870725/unlicensed-home-daycares-in-ontario-oppose-regulation/

It basically says that all home daycares will be forced to join an agency! If that is the case I will close. So annoyed that I have put more than 20 years into my business, and now my hard work and education is going to waste! I don't think I could ever go back to working in a centre!!!

I can't work in a centre either. I mean, I COULD do it, but wouldn't be able to support myself or my kids. I had a look earlier today to see if wages for daycare workers has improved at all since I graduated ECE in 1994. Nope. Downtown Toronto is highest paid at $16.41 (something like that) per hour. Most providers make a whopping $20, 000/ year. Wow.....I mean, really Ontario....thank you soooooo very much for putting such value on our children as to pay those of us willign to take care of them at poverty level. Yep.....I see a big commitment to the wellbeing of children there. I don't know why I bothered to go to school for this. It's absolute crap.

[Artsand crafts]

sure .....current enrollment I have 12.5 months, 22 months, 2 yrs 1 month, 2 years 8 months, 3 years 1 month

I think that keeps me legal

I have one 17 mo, two 18 mo, one 2yrs 2month and my son 2.5 yo. If this is effective right now I will have to get rid of one of the younger ones and the 2yo. So I will be left with only 2kids. Over 3yo are harder to find since usually most are in their original daycare or out to preschool. Just to get by while I get a job or start another business I will have to rise my fees to the babies. I am thinking something around $10 to $15 more per kid.

[bright sparks]

And what exactly are the fines up to $250K for? I have no intention of running an illegal daycare or breaking any rules so I'm not particularly worried but still makes me anxious that due to an innocent mistake that I could lose my flipping house!!!! An illegally run day care which is a danger to the well being should be shut down immediately nevermind a fine, but what about those who just aren't well informed and just need someone to work with them versus against them. Someone mentioned the other day about sticking to other rules such as feeding the kids meals following Canada's food guide, well I wouldn't be able to run then as anyone who knows about nutrition knows that the CFG is keeping the nation unhealthy not healthy. Parents visit different daycares for their differences to find the right match for them and their child. So what do I say now at interviews, this is how id like to run my daycare but unfortunately I will have to charge you an extra $10 a day just to be able to afford to feed your kids hotdogs and as a treat once a week the kids can paint!?!?

This is outrageous. I think it would be very interesting to have a meeting between parents and daycare providers only to shed some reality on how this not only effects the dcp but also how it will balls up the parents life and the increased chance of parents losing their jobs due to the inability to find daycare and also because they will continuously have to find new daycare when the dcp ratios change with aging of the kids. How the hell do we decide which kids stay and which go...Omg this is too much....

[Artsand crafts]

These are just proposals though, correct? Just because they're proposed doesn't necessarily make it so....at least not right away.

I found this and seems that still needs to be approved:

http://news.ontario.ca/edu/en/2013/12/child-care-modernization-act.html

[Crayola kiddies]

No, you have 4 kids under 3 yrs old. It probably wouldn't come into effect that quickly though so your 2.8 will be 3 soon enough but as it stands now, you would have to get rid of one

yup you are right ...but if they pass this I have no intention of going with an agency so I would just drop a kid....and I know exactly which one would get turfed......muahhhah ahaha

[Other Mummy]

Have they even thought of all the ramifications of these proposed changes. The increase in cost to parents (you can be dammed sure my rates will go sky high in order to allow only 3 spots. My own two girls are 3 and 4.5yrs old, so I guess I'd have to let go of 2 dck's.). So increased cost, more people going underground so to speak (no receipts/etc.), or leaving this business all together.

This is a cash grab. Plain and simple. If they wanted to have safer daycares, there are better ways which benefit the business owners, the consumers and the children. License private daycare providers, but allow them to maintain their independence (not working for an agency). Why is this so hard? Oh yes...money.

[jodaycare]

I found this and seems that still needs to be approved:

http://news.ontario.ca/edu/en/2013/12/child-care-modernization-act.html

After reading that, I guess if it becomes law, I will become a "babysitter".

[Fun&care]

Your agencies charge $10/day/child???? That's obscene.

In AB our agencies are funded by the gov't through child and family services; it's really the only reason it actually works. I pay them $70/month, and $40 of that is insurance. It basically works out to $10/child/month, and I only have 3 kids (not including my own). I believe the agency staff is paid by the government, with the agency fees mainly going to admin stuff. They also run 6 PD trainings a year.

We're limited to 6 including our own kids, 2 under 2, 3 under 3. It does result in a lot of 1 year olds without care, but we still have non-accredited day homes with no restrictions on ages. One of my neighbours runs one and she's got mainly under 2s.

We also have levels of accreditation based on education and experience, and the government pays top-up wages to providers with agencies, up to $6.62/hr of time you have kids in your home. We also get $2500 (meant to be spent on things for the program, but it's not monitored) after the completion of one year (for the first two years), and a bonus for returning to child care after being gone for some period of time - it didn't apply to me so I'm not sure what the time frame is. I need to do a lot of work (submit meal and program plans, have monthly visits, attend PD), but the extra money FAR outweighs the extra hour it takes me a week.

Bottom line is if the government it going to go ahead with such tight restrictions, they need to cough up some incentive programs. They're going to have A LOT of providers jumping ship as it just won't be financially beneficial or feasible at all. What happens to the economy when a significant number of parents need to quit because they can no longer find or afford childcare? Not a good situation.

I may have been misinformed about the 10$ per day but I did read in an article from I think the globe and mail that said agencies take up to 30% of your pay. I agree completely that they need to cough up some incentive programs and I mean ASAP, instead of working AGAINST us like we are the enemy or something.

There is absolutely NO support out there for us, we have to find our own support when starting up and in the duration of running our daycares and now out of the blue we are being SLAMMED... for what...instead of being offered help and much needed support and guidelines.

You always hear everywhere that kids are the most important thing in the world and that their first six years are the most important but they sure don't give a crap about the people who care for them.

[jodaycare]

Have they even thought of all the ramifications of these proposed changes. The increase in cost to parents (you can be dammed sure my rates will go sky high in order to allow only 3 spots. My own two girls are 3 and 4.5yrs old, so I guess I'd have to let go of 2 dck's.). So increased cost, more people going underground so to speak (no receipts/etc.), or leaving this business all together.

This is a cash grab. Plain and simple. If they wanted to have safer daycares, there are better ways which benefit the business owners, the consumers and the children. License private daycare providers, but allow them to maintain their independence (not working for an agency). Why is this so hard? Oh yes...money.




My thoughts exactly!!!!!!!

[Other Mummy]

After reading that, I guess if it becomes law, I will become a "babysitter".

You and me as well jodaycare. No receipts and I can charge $15/per hour. Wow this will really benefit everybody (except the parents).

[cfred]

Maybe it's a good time to write to our MPs and Queen's Park??? I'm going to construct a letter over the next couple days. Basically, I just want it known that I am in favour of regulations, but not like this. The regulations must be reasonable and feasible within the home daycare industry. Really, our industry IS different than the daycare industry. It has been my experience that this is why I'm chosen by my clients. They've all said it - they wanted them in a home, not an institution. Many like my specific style, curriculum, menu. Forcing us into agencies, pretty much removes every daycare's individuality. In addition, I think I'd like to ask my clients (past and current) to write in as well. Does anyone think this might be a good idea on a much larger scale???

[Sassygirl]

Does anyone know for certain WHEN this is effective? Is it as of now?

[Artsand crafts]

You and me as well jodaycare. No receipts and I can charge $15/per hour. Wow this will really benefit everybody (except the parents).

Not a bad idea. Nannies charge here from $12 to $20 per hour depending on experience, credentials, age, etc. What I don't like is that you have to follow employers rules most of the time. I would try to increase fees for the kids left first and this could be another option while finding something else. I will be dropping 4 kids and potentially take care of a 12 mo in their house. How many kids like this will be out of daycare or parents having to pay higher fees.

[Other Mummy]

We should unite and try to figure out a way to get that message out there. How is everyone about approaching their clients to construct a letter the way cfred suggested? cfred, would you be willing to share your thoughts about this letter as a group?

Does anyone favor the idea of a group get together. Grass Roots folks. Maybe do a group interview for my "favorite" daily. The Toronto Star. Get some quotes from our clients about how they feel about these proposed changes. Force them to look at the other side of the coin so to speak.

[gravy_train]

Sassygirl, it still needs to be approved, which I suspect it will be.

[torontokids]

The only thing we risk is parents learning that we need to cut kids and they beat us to it and find care elsewhere. I want to pick which kids get the boot and unfortunately it would be one of my long time fantastic families and a part timer just because it would make the most sense.

[Artsand crafts]

I may have been misinformed about the 10$ per day but I did read in an article from I think the globe and mail that said agencies take up to 30% of your pay.

When I worked for Wee Watch they charged parents $42 (for under 3yo) and they paid me $30.

[treeholm]

I'm assuming that this will take awhile to become law, and then take effect. They can't expect us to all suddenly be able to terminate families who have nowhere to go.... Hopefully, there will be a grandfather clause for children who are already in care. I hate the thought of suddenly having to ditch my families!

[cfred]

When I worked for Wee Watch they charged parents $42 (for under 3yo) and they paid me $30.

Yes. I looked into Wee Watch and Hopscotch. Both charged me about the same....for things I already have in place! They offered me insurance. When I indicated that I already had appropriate insurance, their retort was that I wasn't covered for sexual abuse charges. Ummmmm, excuse me??? Yes I am luv. Well, what about First Aid/CPR? Yep, got that too. Wait....training? Well, I figure my ECE diploma might cover that. Toys and equipment? Yeah, kinda got that covered in my first decade in the industry. All I needed was help getting clients when I first moved into a new area. Turned out I didn't need them and now am turning people away. Their fees are outrageous and not remotely justified! And anything I've heard about their service isn't great. I've interviewed people who said my daycare was far superior to anything they saw through either of those two agencies. They indicated that it was just someone's living room with a few toys. I'm trying to understand how this is better....aside from the inspections.

Can you get licensed here without an agency? Is it even possible? I'd rather do that than go with them.

[Artsand crafts]

I'm assuming that this will take awhile to become law, and then take effect. They can't expect us to all suddenly be able to terminate families who have nowhere to go.... Hopefully, there will be a grandfather clause for children who are already in care. I hate the thought of suddenly having to ditch my families!

This is what is surprising to me, that they haven't think about the kids that will be left without daycare options (since 80% of kids are in unlicensed daycare). If every unlicensed provider joined an agency that will not solve the problem. There will still be shortage of spots for under 2 year old.

[Artsand crafts]

Yes. I looked into Wee Watch and Hopscotch. Both charged me about the same....for things I already have in place! They offered me insurance. When I indicated that I already had appropriate insurance, their retort was that I wasn't covered for sexual abuse charges. Ummmmm, excuse me??? Yes I am luv. Well, what about First Aid/CPR? Yep, got that too. Wait....training? Well, I figure my ECE diploma might cover that. Toys and equipment? Yeah, kinda got that covered in my first decade in the industry. All I needed was help getting clients when I first moved into a new area. Turned out I didn't need them and now am turning people away. Their fees are outrageous and not remotely justified! And anything I've heard about their service isn't great. I've interviewed people who said my daycare was far superior to anything they saw through either of those two agencies. They indicated that it was just someone's living room with a few toys. I'm trying to understand how this is better....aside from the inspections.

Can you get licensed here without an agency? Is it even possible? I'd rather do that than go with them.

Wee watch does not even offer home daycare insurance anymore. The "equipment" they lend (limited amount of gates, playpens, highchairs) anybody could get at a fraction of the price at Kijiji.

A client quit on me, because she needed to use back up care occasionally (for personal reasons on my side) when I worked for Wee Watch (they accommodate kids in other home daycare when a provider is not available). She told me she could not send her kid to those places, not even occasionally, because of the poor quality of care. So she ended up hiring a nanny.

My "training" was someone reviewing some parts of the manual they left with me. Nothing that is worth to be called "training" really

Inspections were just a lady asking what I did with the kids for the past month so she could fill out a form to be given to the parents. No safety inspections, the only safety inspection they did was pushing the button of the fire alarm almost every time they came.

[Daisy123]

Someone I just spoke to (works for the Red Cross now) used to do daycare through Wee Watch. She was telling me that the government gave her grants per month to go through an agency. This sounds strange to me- anyone else ever hear of this?

[treeholm]

I can't see any information on how to become licensed... I would never go with an agency like Wee Watch.. I've heard too many horror stories. So, there would have to be an option to become privately licensed, right? I also have a swimming pool, which I believe would be a problem. AND, I will have two one-year olds, and two two-year olds next year, with an occasional one-year old grandson. I started this business to look after my grandchildren, whom I don't charge. I would have to get rid of my paying customers, since both my grand-babies are one and under. Oh well...

I can see that parents are going to go nuts! I have a Mom on mat leave sending her 18 month old a few days a week just to hold a spot for her newborn, who would start next August. Now, I would have to tell her neither one of her children can continue.... Ridiculous....

[Artsand crafts]

Someone I just spoke to (works for the Red Cross now) used to do daycare through Wee Watch. She was telling me that the government gave her grants per month to go through an agency. This sounds strange to me- anyone else ever hear of this?

That's right. Government send you a check here and there, but it was peanuts that I don't even remember how much it was.

[cfred]

We got those when I was head teacher in a daycare centre. It was called a wage enhancement cheque. And yes, it's peanuts.

[Fun&care]

Here's an idea- why don't we rally up and start our OWN agency???

[playfelt]

Maybe it's a good time to write to our MPs and Queen's Park??? I'm going to construct a letter over the next couple days. Basically, I just want it known that I am in favour of regulations, but not like this. The regulations must be reasonable and feasible within the home daycare industry. Really, our industry IS different than the daycare industry. It has been my experience that this is why I'm chosen by my clients. They've all said it - they wanted them in a home, not an institution. Many like my specific style, curriculum, menu. Forcing us into agencies, pretty much removes every daycare's individuality. In addition, I think I'd like to ask my clients (past and current) to write in as well. Does anyone think this might be a good idea on a much larger scale???

CCPRN has been lobbying on our behalf and demanding to be included in the discussions and from what has been proposed I can see that they were at least listened to - we weren't outright banned which is what the agencies wanted. I know CCPRN will continue to lobby and sure they would welcome the voice of other caregivers across Ontario to present a unified front. Go to their website and send them an email saying you want your voice to be heard too and how can you help the cause. www.ccprn.com

[playfelt]

Here's an idea- why don't we rally up and start our OWN agency???

When I lived in Calgary I did daycare under a wonderful agency (Jan-Pat Satellite Family Day Homes). Not being any the wiser, when we were transferred to Ottawa I joined an agency here. Different as night and day and not for the better. I got out of it as soon as I could. There for sure is a better way to run an agency and you may be on to something. Something along the ideas of cooperative just might work.

Problem is the rules are still going to be the same. In essence we are being asked to follow the agency rules too so whether we do join an agency or not the rules will be the same. The being allowed 6 is a joke because of the full day JK and the schools taking over the over age 6 kids. I can't understand how current agency caregivers are going to manage as they are going to be harmed more than us given the fee to the agency per child issue.

[treeholm]

yes, I can't see the advantage of joining an agency. I have 4 children under 2. Even with an agency, wouldn't I have to fire my clients? My own grandchildren, who do not pay, are under 2. One of them only comes a few times a week since his Mom is on mat leave, but I have a space for him, that he shares with my 4 year old granddaughter, who only has a space for PA days and summer vacation. Because he comes sometimes though, and my one year old is here every day, I would not be able to take my other 4 who are two and under. I never have more than 5 at one time, but I do often have all 5 under two... At what point do we have to let parents know they need to find alternate care? If I were to go with an agency, I still wouldn't be able to keep any of my paying customers, so I would have to close. I have no objection to being licensed, per se, I just can't see how we can make the ratios work since it is mostly kids under three needing care.

[Fun&care]

To be honest, I don't see how this could possibly go through. The age restrictions are a joke and there is no way they can do that to parents. I think if they REALLY want to give us an incentive to be licensed then drop the age restrictions for LICENSED daycares plus allow the 6 kids including your own. Just no age restrictions or lesser ones. And then this is where we start our own agencies!

There is absolutely no incentive in being licensed by just adding 1 child because most of us don't want school aged kids and in my area, I've had a hard time filling those spots because schools offer programs of their own already.

Obviously this "plan" was drawn up by people who don't know squat about childcare.

[treeholm]

I agree that it really can't possibly go through... if you think with reason and logic...but we are talking about the government....
In any case, has anyone heard anything about a timeline? I would want to give my parents as much notice as I can if I need to terminate them, but I don't want to alarm them unnecessarily. They won't be able to find care very easily, and that worries me.

[Artsand crafts]

CCPRN has been lobbying on our behalf and demanding to be included in the discussions and from what has been proposed I can see that they were at least listened to - we weren't outright banned which is what the agencies wanted. I know CCPRN will continue to lobby and sure they would welcome the voice of other caregivers across Ontario to present a unified front. Go to their website and send them an email saying you want your voice to be heard too and how can you help the cause. www.ccprn.com

I'll definetevely get in touch with them... do you think CCPRN can make a difference before the bill is approved? What have they done to help with this?

[cfred]

Here I sit, with insomnia over this stuff. Even after a good rant to Awesome New Guy and a criminally large glass of red, I still can get this muck out of my head. Soooo, might as well make myself useful. I've found a few articles from about 6 hours ago. Maybe this is hopeful me at work here, but I'm not seeing anything about the 2 under 2 rule. Perhaps they just couldn't mention absolutely everything, but in 4 articles, I didn't see age restrictions mentioned. We would, by the sounds of it, be considered babysitters. I find that mildly demeaning, but when faced with losing my job, I'll take it! They seem to focus more on the fines, reporting process and giving more 'incentive' to join a licensed agency.

[Other Mummy]

I will be writing an email to my local MPP. This has not been thought out properly and carefully. Where are all the daycare children going to go once this bill gets passed? Are they creating MORE licensed daycare centres. Hardly. So what are people going to do?

Instead of offering incentives, education and programs for daycare providers (which will benefit the parents, children and providers) they are essentially stripping the foundations that our clients relay on under the guise of "Better and safer childcare" .

I urge you all to write your local MPP. Do it NOW. Gripping about it will not fix anything. Get letters from your clients. We need to be a voice...not only for ourselves but for all our Daycare kids. I can't imagine the scrambling my daycare clients will be doing if this Bill goes through.

[gravy_train]

So how are you guys addressing parents concerns over these proposed changes? I had one family texting me about it at 8pm yesterday (which I will have to address separately)!

[treeholm]

I am hoping to find out how soon these changes would be expected to take effect before I have to let parents know they need to find alternate care... I am worried that they will find out about it on the news first, and then I will have no choice but to tell them that if the legislation is approved, I will no longer be able to care for their children... I have a great relationship with my parents, and they chose me for very specific reasons like organic food and the fact that I am a grandma. They do not want to go to a daycare centre, nor are there spaces available anyway....

[crafty]

I just cant believe this ! It's stressing me out. Here I was planning my openings and options for 2014 and now ... after these possible age restrictions I may be forced to closed. I've been opened for only 2 years and the first year was rough financially ... I am still struggling to make up for that first year even with a full daycare now. There is no way I can afford only to care for 3 children and there is no incentive for me to go with the agency in my area. The pay is lesser and I have a pool so I am not even sure I would get a license with them ... Ok if I have to the pool will go but even if I would get licensed they take such a big cut for only one more child allowed it would not make much difference. And I am good darn it ! I am a kick ass daycare provider and I DONT want to DO anything else. I LOVE MY JOB AND MY KIDS !! Arg ! So frustrating and stressful !! Definitely will try to get my voice heard !!

[gravy_train]

I feel in my heart like I should start telling parents to be prepared and start looking for alternate care but that would be a financial disaster for me as I would obviously like to hold onto the income I have for as long as possible.

[crafty]

As for my parents, I told them that I am working on a solution that will hopefully work out for everyone but I still don't know where to go. I need to know when this will be in affect. They are very concerned as one was hoping to enroll her 2nd baby with me this summer and another family is expecting and are afraid to loose a their spot with me. I would love to just keep status quo until both my children are in school.

[treeholm]

Yup, this is stressful for sure. I feel that ethically, I need to let my parents know they need to keep an eye on this issue, but knowing that I will close if it passes, they really need to find alternate care as soon as they can... which would not be good for me. But if they find out through the media and not through me, I'll look dishonest... sigh...

[pink]

You are absolutely right, the rate they pay for licensed home daycare in my city is 30.00 per day. Most of the un-licensed daycare charge 35.00. I find the rate low in this neighborhood. There will be a lot of families without childcare. I would make more money in returning to work.

[gravy_train]

Well that's exactly it for me too Treeholm. I was planning on closing June 2014 anyway but was not going to tell my parents until 3 months before. I think I will start putting some money away now in case there is a month or two gap between my anticipated closing date and when I actually have to close.

[treeholm]

I have decided that because my clients are wonderful people who trust me, and whom I hope to keep as friends, I am morally required to tell them to keep an eye on the legislation and do what is best for them. Sigh.... not looking forward to these conversations, but at least they won't be angry later that I didn't tell them as soon as I found out. If it doesn't pass, I'm sure they won't leave me, but they need to be prepared. I will wait the rest of this week to get more info on anticipated timelines, but on Monday, I will tell my families that if it passes in its current form, I will be closing.

[playfelt]

Someone posted a copy of the actual act on facebook. Note this section looks like they have addressed the ratios just forgot to mention that part or at least that is all I can find in the act relating to ages and stages.

unlicensed child care, five children or less
2. The child care provided at the premises meets the following criteria:
services de garde non agréés : maximum de cinq enfants
2. Les services de garde fournis dans le local remplis-sent les critères suivants :
i. The child care is provided for no more than five children or, if a lesser number is pre-scribed by the regulations, no more than the prescribed number of children.
i. Les services de garde sont fournis pour au maximum cinq enfants ou le nombre inférieur prescrit par les règlements, le cas échéant.
ii. There is no agreement between a home child care agency and the child care provider that provides for the agency’s oversight of the provision of care.
ii. Le fournisseur de services de garde n’a pas conclu d’entente avec une agence de services de garde en milieu familial prévoyant que celle-ci supervise la prestation des services.
iii. The group of children does not include more than two children who are younger than two years old.

The entire act can be viewed here and a pdf is available for saving.

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?loca le=en&BillID=2913&detailPage=bills_det ail_the_bill

[playfelt]

So what I am taking from the act is that we can have 5 of any age mix as long as there are only two under age 2. While licensed can have 6 where we can only have 5 that isn't enough to incite us to join because the amount they take per child plus the hassles will negate the extra child

"Child" now refers to up to age 13 and I see nothing saying you can have school age to compensate. And nothing in the act that says your own children count in the numbers so we for sure need some clarification of what the ratios are.

[bright sparks]

I have decided that because my clients are wonderful people who trust me, and whom I hope to keep as friends, I am morally required to tell them to keep an eye on the legislation and do what is best for them. Sigh.... not looking forward to these conversations, but at least they won't be angry later that I didn't tell them as soon as I found out. If it doesn't pass, I'm sure they won't leave me, but they need to be prepared. I will wait the rest of this week to get more info on anticipated timelines, but on Monday, I will tell my families that if it passes in its current form, I will be closing.

Do you really think it would be of great benefit all around to tell parents about something which is only in the planning stages? There are no facts to pass on to the parents and pretty much most info out their is through the media which quite honestly is not the best source. I have alradyr end two separate sources who have some conflicting info betweent he two.

You could potentially and unnecessarily damage your business. I would imagine that parents would look for alternative care in centres and if a spot comes up they would take it, out of fear that if they wait for legislation to pass that these spots will be pretty much nonexistent. You want to stay friends with them and feel like it is your duty to be honest with them but they will leave you in the shit if it means doing what's best for them. It won't be personal just doing what's in their best interests. What happens if the legislation is modified slightly so we get a better deal in terms of numbers and age groups. Then telling the parents would have been for nothing. You are not lying to them as you don't actually have any facts to tell them. IMO be telling them of possible changes, you will stir up anxiety and uncertainty in them which will only result in negative consequences for you, the dcp. This is what the media does, scare people, and stir up chaos. I think it would make much better sense to tighten belts, and prepare for the worst but not get people all in a panic with what the media says.

[bright sparks]

So what I am taking from the act is that we can have 5 of any age mix as long as there are only two under age 2. While licensed can have 6 where we can only have 5 that isn't enough to incite us to join because the amount they take per child plus the hassles will negate the extra child

"Child" now refers to up to age 13 and I see nothing saying you can have school age to compensate. And nothing in the act that says your own children count in the numbers so we for sure need some clarification of what the ratios are.

The link you provided above states the following....

Children of the provider
(5) For the purposes of counting children at a premises under paragraphs 1 and 2 of subsection (3), a child care provider’s own children who are at the premises shall be counted unless they are six years old or older.

This could make a difference for sure fort those providers with their own children at school.

[treeholm]

I do see what you are saying bright sparks. I simply feel I need to let my parents know what is being proposed to they can keep an eye on it. I know they would not choose a centre over me, because my one family with the new baby is sending their one year old one day a week just to hold the spot so they can send both next year. I gently asked them to consider finding alternate care when the baby turns a year old since I can't guarantee the spot, and they said they wanted to stay with me badly enough that they would take that risk rather than looking elsewhere. If it hadn't been causing such a stir in the media, I wouldn't feel a need to say anything to them. But I fear they will find out elsewhere and wonder why I kept it from them. I should say, however, that I am in a unique position. I started a daycare to look after my grandchildren, whom I don't charge. I will continue to do that. I have a part-time teaching position as a professor at a university, so I can increase my teaching hours. I also have a scrapbooking retreat centre, which I run on weekends. Daycare was only a temporary thing for me until my youngest grandchild goes to school, so I won't be upset if I have to close. I am not worried about myself personally. I am horrified for my friends who rely on daycare income as a way to stay home with their own children.

[treeholm]

Also, it is my understanding that this legislation is NO LONGER in the planning stages. It will be introduced, and is expected to pass. That's why it was announced yesterday. The government is determined to act quickly to demonstrate that it is taking this seriously. YOu are quite right, bright sparks, I would not be telling parents anything about what is just in the planning stages.

[bright sparks]

And this is the only mention on numbers and ages of children in unlicensed home daycare which means there is also no agency involvement.

"unlicensed child care, five children or less
2. The child care provided at the premises meets the following criteria:
i. The child care is provided for no more than five children or, if a lesser number is prescribed by the regulations, no more than the prescribed number of children.
ii. There is no agreement between a home child care agency and the child care provider that provides for the agency’s oversight of the provision of care.
iii. The group of children does not include more than two children who are younger than two years old."

[Fun&care]

Yup, this is stressful for sure. I feel that ethically, I need to let my parents know they need to keep an eye on this issue, but knowing that I will close if it passes, they really need to find alternate care as soon as they can... which would not be good for me. But if they find out through the media and not through me, I'll look dishonest... sigh...

I think that they would have a hard time finding care elsewhere anyways though. I've already told my dcp about it...I'm thinking that since my daughter will be 3 and I will have a 2 year old, a 16 month old and a 12 month old plus my 6 year old son I will be ok? Or am I missing something here? Either way I think you should tell them and put the emphasis on urging the government to rethink this. Also do you all think that this is going to come into effect that soon? The gov works slow and even their definition of fast most consider pretty slow. I read in one article that they would have a database where you can look up providers who've have complaints by fall 2014 so if it takes them that long to do that...I dunno...

[treeholm]

My problem is that all of mine are under two. If I could only have two under two, that would be my own grandchildren, and all the paying clients would have to leave. No idea how quickly they plan to implement, but the government has vowed to act quickly... I'm concerned because my families will have a great deal of difficulty finding alternate care, and I don't want them to be left in the lurch. Might be better to go ahead and close so they can find care before the rush....

[bright sparks]

Fun&Care

Click on Playfelts link and you see the entire bill including a section on renaming it with the year 2013 so I am assuming this will come I to force within the next couple of weeks at the latest. It will be called "Childcare Modernization Act,2013" Also known as Childcare and Early Years Act, 2013.

The status says First reading followed by Carried which I assume means that they are moving forward with it.

[momofnerds]

I think this is a proposed idea. There are way too many bugs that need to ironed out. I also think that they should after the ministry for not doing thier jobs not those who follow the rules. Also, who's going to monitor us, who do we pay, are we going to get funding then from the goverment, are they going to supply us with training....My own kids don't fall under this rule because they are over the age of 10, but what am I going to do with siblings who come here in the summer or on days off. What the rule for the 6 to 10 crowd. Do they fall in my under 5 numbers. And also, parents are going to have to give up their jobs when they cant find care for their kids which will lead to more people getting goverment help. this is why I'm thinking its proposed, lots of questions but no answers.

[playfelt]

I'm not saying anything to my parents right now because this is still in the proposal stage and because we have no timeline. We all know our numbers change frequently due to mat leaves and that is how my group will likely be effected. I have only my 20 year old at home although she is special needs it looks like those distinctions are gone too as in no discrimination. There still is not enough incentive to be licensed though. My guess is that there will now be a provincial media push to discourage parents from choosing unlicensed and it will become our job to convince parents why it is equivalent or in their best interest such as the flexibility and the parental control - well a little bit of control.

[bright sparks]

I'm trying to be optimistic today as yesterday was very stressful and sitting worrying isn't productive. It would appear that we originally thought it was the 3 under 3 but the act clearly states no more than 2under2. Yes this is still a huge issue but at least it's opened up spots for children 2 and older..it's not much but it is something. Unfortunately for those dcp's in concentrated areas it just means it will be a "buyers market" if you know what I mean. There will be heavy competition for these children as most providers will have two spots open for this age group giving the parents so many choices which is a good thing for them but very competitive for us providers. Those offering a specialty such as organic etc will already be under financial strain from the new age ratios so keeping this up in order to have an edge, obviously only if a parent finds this important, will be difficult. I am really going to have to see if I can live on three full timers. That's another thing too....what are your thoughts on taking full versus part time kids when this comes into effect. It can be difficult enough to fill opposite days so when we are already restricted with ages and numbers do we want to run the risk of having days open in the younger age groups?

[playfelt]

Some of the school programs operate all summer around here so I am assuming that is the plan. They operate with a summer camp approach. Also the kids graduating grade 6 in June do not get care that summer and instead those starting JK the following Sept get summer spaces so that is when those leaving for school in Sept are often gone and spaces need to be filled.

[playfelt]

The bill still has to be debated in the house and then voted on. Ideally I am thinking they might want to have it passed by the end of the Christmas sitting but I am also wondering how much of a lead time/grace period there will be before it is enacted in that even when a bill has been passed there can be a time before it becomes law such as 3 months.

[gravy_train]

Not to be overly pessimistic but I think it's naive to hope that this bill won't be passed - it's such a controversial topic right now and there is major pressure from the media and public to enforce some regulations in the daycare sector. Like playfelt suggested, I just hope that there is a fair amount of time before we have to make these changes.

[Fun&care]

I also read somewhere that this is something the Liberals have come up with but they have to get approved by the Conservatives before it goes through since the Liberals are minority so it could be a good idea to write letters to some conservative representatives too.

[momofnerds]

also are they going to hire more people to investigate daycares where is the money going to come from that. Also, I don't understand that if you are lisenced you can have 1 extra kid but unlicesened you can only have 5 so how is that safe. also, everything I read says "proposed". Yes, changes are coming but....

also, what about afterschool kids where do they fall now, and so are they saying 10 yr olds can stay home by themselves for hours upon hours now because there won't be a program for them. Talk about unsafe.

[treeholm]

I also read somewhere that this is something the Liberals have come up with but they have to get approved by the Conservatives before it goes through since the Liberals are minority so it could be a good idea to write letters to some conservative representatives too.

Good point, but I have heard that the conservatives are all for it, which is why the Liberals are so sure it will pass. The conservatives do NOT want to block legislation that is supposed to increase safety for children.

[cfred]

God, I feel ill. We just bought a house. I sank a fortune into this business. I'm on my own here and this is my only source of income. Thanks to the shitty daycares who messed it up for all of us. Thanks to the Min of Ed for not doing it's job following up complaints and inspections. And thanks to the Min of Ed and media for throwing all of us under the bus with the damning headlines painting us all with the same brush. And what irritates the friggin' hell out of me is that woman whose baby girl died in the Vaughan daycare. I feel terrible that her child died, and of course, there's nothing that warrants that. BUT....where was she as a parent??? My neighbours across the street have a relative who went to the same daycare. He said those parents didn't have any idea what was going on, didn't go to the daycare (ever). The kids were picked up and dropped off every morning. They had no idea even what the kids were eating. Seriously??? The only thing they cared about was that it was cheap and they spoke Russian. I could just smack that woman now for kicking up such a stink in the media. Where's HER culpability as an irresponsible parent. And the Min of Ed now scrambling to bring this into effect, making US sound irresponsible?! Where were they for the last god knows how long while they weren't doing their jobs. Jesus F on a bloody stick.....I don't remember the last time I was this upset!

Maybe writing to the conservative party is a good idea. During my reading last night, though I can't remember which article it was, I'm sure I read that the Conservative party opposes the change.

[treeholm]

http://www.ottawacitizen.co m/life/Province+seeks+updat ed+childcare+stiffer +penalties+rule+brea kers/9241188/story.html

Here is an excerpt from the article above:“I would think that both opposition parties would be interested in expanding access to licensed child care and making sure where people don’t follow the rules, that we actually have a much-expanded ability to enforce the rules,” she said.

Although the Progressive Conservatives and New Democrats both said they wanted to review and digest the bill before saying whether or not they would support it, they agreed the changes are long overdue.

The NDP leader said the Liberal government has ignored “warning bells that have been ringing loudly.”

“This is them coming too late to a crisis that’s been brewing for years and years,” she said.

[momofnerds]

@cfred I wondered why the mother wasn't being charged also for being so neglectful. How can you drop your child off and not even realize something wasn't right. How did she go day after day and not step foot into it. Also, what was the end result for this provider. I never heard anything about it. If the ministry couldn't do their job before, how are they going to do their job if the new changes come in.

[Fun&care]

Maybe writing to the conservative party is a good idea. During my reading last night, though I can't remember which article it was, I'm sure I read that the Conservative party opposes the change.

This is what I read also but can't remember for the life of me where...if we play up that the "liberals are dumb" we might be onto something I think. I feel ill too cfred....

[cfred]

I'm trying to sift through the bill. Bit of a dry read, lol. More than a little difficult to make heads or tails of. I want to know about this babysitter thing. I'm cool to be called a babysitter if I can still work....can't imagine they'd let that slip by though. I suppose I could hire myself out as an 'off site nanny', which people share the cost of? That could have some potential. I don't know. I've got 3 new babies starting within the next year. Why not 2 under 18 mos? That would make more sense. Everyone's walking and pretty mobile by that point. Why is 2 the magic number.

[Teagansmom]

Cfred I totally agree with you in regards to the parents who's child died. Yes it's a really sad story. IMO the parents are 90% responsible, I don't understand how anyone could put their child in a dc without seeing the place. I'm sure it was to save money, sad.
I believe that if this bill passes which I think will, the government will soon back track an amend it after they see how it will impact both parents and the overall economy.
I for one do not see any incentive of becoming licensed. I loath b/a school, as I see it I could potentially have 2 under 2, and 3 over 2. If I have a hard time getting older kids I would have no choice but to up my fees, which in turn hurts the parents. I will never turn my business over to an agency. I became self employed for a reason.

[momofnerds]

I'm trying to sift through the bill. Bit of a dry read, lol. More than a little difficult to make heads or tails of. I want to know about this babysitter thing. I'm cool to be called a babysitter if I can still work....can't imagine they'd let that slip by though. I suppose I could hire myself out as an 'off site nanny', which people share the cost of? That could have some potential. I don't know. I've got 3 new babies starting within the next year. Why not 2 under 18 mos? That would make more sense. Everyone's walking and pretty mobile by that point. Why is 2 the magic number.

I was thinking the same thing. I already get called a babysitter. So if my dd babysits is she going to fall under a certain law. I thought about an inhouse nanny, are they going to go after nannies now too. I keep a small group now, but I don't know from week to week what will happen with my group (lay offs, days off) Like I said, way too many unanswered questions.

[playfelt]

ON the Vaughan issue there apparently is a category that was quietly grandfathered in which I just learned about a couple days ago that allowed for "private" daycare centres that did not have to follow any of the rules - imagine that. The one in Vaughan came under that category a fact no one in the media was told or understood. We all knew someone with 35 kids could not hide them and for what reason would you need a daycare bus to go the homes and pick up the kids and drop them off which they did - ie few parents actually went to the daycare daily.

[Discoveries]

Treehome I understand your wish to inform your clients as soon as possible. I live very close to you, and know all to well about the huge shortages we have in our area for the under two age group. I feel horrible now turning away parents desperate to find care for their children when their mat. leave comes to an end. I can't imagine it getting worse. Centers are not likely to jump in and increase their infant slots either, with the cost of providing infant care in a center being $80/day. The 3's & 4's used to help offset this cost, but now they are in school. All the changes to 'fix' things seems to just be creating another mess.

[crafty]

Well ... I just spoke to a lady in charge of home daycare licensing in my are at the ministry. She has informed me that there is high chances this bill passes and very soon. There will be NO grandfathering or time set to implement once it passes. As soon as it's in effect ... we are not legal if we have more than 2 under 2 or if we have more than 5 PERIOD ! So I asked her... where are all these babies going to go with no daycare and no noticed ??? NO ANSWER Ok so, how are you going to ensure everyone complies ''Oh we have a task force set up '' ... Me ''laughing.. ok so how is this really going to prevent deaths in home daycare ...most were already "illegal" or unawear of laws, how are you going to get the info. out to all of us" her response "Media ...." " Hum ... so really there is no plan, just a bill" "Sorry I don't have more info to give"" WOW GOOD JOB ! UGH !

[treeholm]

I turn away a potential family about once a week, and it is always someone either pregnant or on mat leave. When I started, I filled with 4 one year olds, to add to my granddaughter, before I even opened! This is indeed a mess. I talked to a friend last night at a commercial daycare centre who told me that they only have room for 10 one year olds. They prefer to take 2 and 3 year olds... yes, and so will all the home daycares now....

[treeholm]

I guess we need to bombard the ministry with calls asking what we should tell parents when we give them their two weeks notice in terms of where they should take their one year olds...

[treeholm]

Crafty, do you have a phone number or email address for that lady at the ministry?

[momofnerds]

also, how are we going to prove the ages of the children. I refuse to give that info out to anyone. Also, the local ministries probably have as much info as we do.

[treeholm]

also, how are we going to prove the ages of the children. I refuse to give that info out to anyone. Also, the local ministries probably have as much info as we do.

That's easy, they will just force us to collect birthdate info and have it available.

[mommarmars]

Here are the details if anyone is looking for it.

http://news.ontario.ca/edu/en/2013/12/child-care-modernization-act.html

[crafty]

She also gave me this website so we can make our voices heard before it is passed

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/home.do

Treeholm she is specifically for my area I believe but what the heck give it a try and see. I,ll send you in a PM.

[treeholm]

Thanks crafty!

[username]

Here is what I am sending:

I am concerned about the proposed changes:

- having a 6th child is not an incentive for me to join an agency (their age restrictions are prohibitive and the fact that upwards of 20% of the daily fee remains with the agency)
- it will not create more licensed spaces because the age limits cap it at 3 under 3 years old. It may open 2-3 spaces for after school/PA day/summer care but for not children ages 1-3 where there is already a shortage and the schools will be taking over before and after school care for the most part. This situation creates an environment for illegal daycares to open up and be successful.
- under the new proposed restrictions for private care givers I imagine several home daycares will close, many new moms will not be starting up home daycares, fees will increase dramatically, part-time children will not be accommodated and some parents will need to "be let go" in order to be in compliance with the proposed changes

Some things that I would like to see are:

- increasing ratios for infants in centres to create more spaces. The ratios were created when an "infant" could be under 6 months when maternity leaves were shorter. Currently, they can care for 10 infants with 3 providers. That should be increased to 12 infants since they likely around 12 months plus and with devices like 6 seater strollers it is manageable and good help centres stay in good financial standing. Perhaps the toddler room ratios could be slightly increased as well to allow more subsidized/licensed spots to become available.
- home providers and licensed providers with an agency should be able to care for 7 children with minimal age restrictions. Assuming most moms have an average of two children that would mean that many have been functioning well with 7 children in their care (two of their own). The provider's own children under the age of 6 should count in the numbers. Once their own children are over the age of 6 they could care for 7 children. This would help with coordinating moms returning from mat leaves, PA/summer holidays and transitioning new children to care with some flex in the current allowable limits. Much of the difficultly with home child care is the juggling of part-time schedules, accommodating maternity leaves, holding spots for moms returning from a maternity leave, PA days and holiday care. Extra flexibility would solve this problem for both providers and parents.
- these deaths that happened in the Toronto area speak loudly to the child care crisis in Toronto more so than the entire province. These tragedies are not happening in home where there are 5, 7, or 8 children. It is happening in severely crowded homes where there are dozens of children where the providers are motivated by greed.
- Allowing up to 7 in some homes where providers have some minimal training and basic standards are being met would shift some of those children from the overcrowded homes and those homes that are not offering quality care. It would create more choice for parents and allow the parents to determine the better home daycares for themselves.
- up to 7 children would also allow care givers to make a decent wage in a profession that is severely undervalued and hopefully allow them to invest back into the daycare to create a quality environment for children. This could allow for some of those larger purchases needed to care for a group of young children.
- the limit should be two under 18 months (where the provider’s children count in those limits). Because of full day kindergarten the turnover of children is much faster now in home daycares. Often a maternity leave in between age one and age 4 when they go off to school also creates a quick turnovers and makes scheduling difficult. Two under 2 years would create a bias against mothers returning from a maternity leave and looking for care being accepted into a home daycare.

- I would like to see a voluntary registry (registering verses licensing) whereby a provider could apply to have up to 7 children should they meet some basic requirements: CPR training, annual training, police check, fire inspection and perhaps a site visit to be allowed up to 7 children. Documentation could be mailed or submitted electronically to a governing body and a permit could be issued. Then the provider would be mailed a permit to be placed in their front window. Parents could see the capacity limitations and so could curious neighbours to avoid false reporting and save time for inspections of those bending the rules. It could also include a phone number for those concerned to call. Registered providers should have current first-aid and CPR certificate and complete Levels 1, 2, and 3 of the Family Child Care Training Course, which is available through the Canadian Childcare Federation or equivalent. The license applicant must provide 3 personal references and written authorization for criminal record screening for themselves as well as any other adults residing at the residence on an annual basis. Proof of liability insurance would be required. Registration would be renewed annually and would include an inspection by the Office of the Ontario Fire Marshal. Other recommendations would be welcomed.

The Day Nurseries Act does not allow two adults to care for more children in one home. Home child care can be an extremely isolating profession. Being able to work with another individual allows for adult interaction and someone to plan with. It also enhances safety and accountability. While one is making the lunch or toileting children the other can be reading, playing, painting or taking the children outside. While smaller children are napping, one provider can be at home with the children and the other can take older children to the library, museum or park etc. It allows for both age groups to have their needs met and to enhance programming. This option should also be considered.

Parents need choices and options and children need to have their needs met with their best interests in mind. Any good provider would advocate for that. I receive several emails and phone calls from parents that are eagerly seeking quality care only to find out that I am full and carry a long waiting list. There are several quality home childcares in our city that I often refer these parents to and they are often told that they are full as well. The great ones are always full leaving parents to choose substandard care. Their ability to choose quality care and attain their first choice (or often second and third choice) for care is not always possible and they are left having to settle for the first place that has an opening in order to be able to return to work (often an illegal daycare or in the care of someone who is not properly trained or offering a quality environment)

I firmly believe that we should be overseen for quality and minimum standards. By providing a means of licensing home child care parents could rest assured that they were some minimum requirements required in order to open your door and welcome children in the morning. We would all like to help make a difference in supporting families in Ontario. Please advocate to protect parents for the right to chose the child care option that works best for them by providing more choices and not limiting them.

About 80% of children are cared for providers like myself and I would hate to see the government not include us in this discussion. The media witchhunt against home child care providers is insulting to our work. The dedication many of us bring to this profession early each morning as we open our doors to these young children should be praised. We are the ones planning crafts, shopping on weekends for groceries, cleaning the space after hours, meal planning, interviewing families, and thinking of these little people as we fall asleep. We allow parents to go to work, for the economy to function and for some of us it has allowed us to raise our own children while making an income. We are business women who pay taxes and write receipts for parents. Yes, there are some providers who have ruined our credibility but the majority of us would like to reinstate the public’s trust and become accountable through a registration process.

I would really like to see the province get this right and make the system work for everyone!

[treeholm]

It's on the agenda for a second reading, according to the website for the Legislative Assembly. Of course, I don't really know what that means in terms of when they debate and vote.

[Other Mummy]

username....May I use a lot of what you wrote. Sum it up but use some points of yours. You nailed it perfectly. I'm writing my MPP at lunch today.

[momofnerds]

if the ratio is going to be only for under the 4 yr olds, what is the ratio going to be for the 6 to 10 yr olds.

[giraffe]

Here is what I am sending:

I am concerned about the proposed changes:

- having a 6th child is not an incentive for me to join an agency (their age restrictions are prohibitive and the fact that upwards of 20% of the daily fee remains with the agency)
- it will not create more licensed spaces because the age limits cap it at 3 under 3 years old. It may open 2-3 spaces for after school/PA day/summer care but for not children ages 1-3 where there is already a shortage and the schools will be taking over before and after school care for the most part. This situation creates an environment for illegal daycares to open up and be successful.
- under the new proposed restrictions for private care givers I imagine several home daycares will close, many new moms will not be starting up home daycares, fees will increase dramatically, part-time children will not be accommodated and some parents will need to "be let go" in order to be in compliance with the proposed changes

Some things that I would like to see are:

- increasing ratios for infants in centres to create more spaces. The ratios were created when an "infant" could be under 6 months when maternity leaves were shorter. Currently, they can care for 10 infants with 3 providers. That should be increased to 12 infants since they likely around 12 months plus and with devices like 6 seater strollers it is manageable and good help centres stay in good financial standing. Perhaps the toddler room ratios could be slightly increased as well to allow more subsidized/licensed spots to become available.
- home providers and licensed providers with an agency should be able to care for 7 children with minimal age restrictions. Assuming most moms have an average of two children that would mean that many have been functioning well with 7 children in their care (two of their own). The provider's own children under the age of 6 should count in the numbers. Once their own children are over the age of 6 they could care for 7 children. This would help with coordinating moms returning from mat leaves, PA/summer holidays and transitioning new children to care with some flex in the current allowable limits. Much of the difficultly with home child care is the juggling of part-time schedules, accommodating maternity leaves, holding spots for moms returning from a maternity leave, PA days and holiday care. Extra flexibility would solve this problem for both providers and parents.
- these deaths that happened in the Toronto area speak loudly to the child care crisis in Toronto more so than the entire province. These tragedies are not happening in home where there are 5, 7, or 8 children. It is happening in severely crowded homes where there are dozens of children where the providers are motivated by greed.
- Allowing up to 7 in some homes where providers have some minimal training and basic standards are being met would shift some of those children from the overcrowded homes and those homes that are not offering quality care. It would create more choice for parents and allow the parents to determine the better home daycares for themselves.
- up to 7 children would also allow care givers to make a decent wage in a profession that is severely undervalued and hopefully allow them to invest back into the daycare to create a quality environment for children. This could allow for some of those larger purchases needed to care for a group of young children.
- the limit should be two under 18 months (where the provider’s children count in those limits). Because of full day kindergarten the turnover of children is much faster now in home daycares. Often a maternity leave in between age one and age 4 when they go off to school also creates a quick turnovers and makes scheduling difficult. Two under 2 years would create a bias against mothers returning from a maternity leave and looking for care being accepted into a home daycare.

- I would like to see a voluntary registry (registering verses licensing) whereby a provider could apply to have up to 7 children should they meet some basic requirements: CPR training, annual training, police check, fire inspection and perhaps a site visit to be allowed up to 7 children. Documentation could be mailed or submitted electronically to a governing body and a permit could be issued. Then the provider would be mailed a permit to be placed in their front window. Parents could see the capacity limitations and so could curious neighbours to avoid false reporting and save time for inspections of those bending the rules. It could also include a phone number for those concerned to call. Registered providers should have current first-aid and CPR certificate and complete Levels 1, 2, and 3 of the Family Child Care Training Course, which is available through the Canadian Childcare Federation or equivalent. The license applicant must provide 3 personal references and written authorization for criminal record screening for themselves as well as any other adults residing at the residence on an annual basis. Proof of liability insurance would be required. Registration would be renewed annually and would include an inspection by the Office of the Ontario Fire Marshal. Other recommendations would be welcomed.

The Day Nurseries Act does not allow two adults to care for more children in one home. Home child care can be an extremely isolating profession. Being able to work with another individual allows for adult interaction and someone to plan with. It also enhances safety and accountability. While one is making the lunch or toileting children the other can be reading, playing, painting or taking the children outside. While smaller children are napping, one provider can be at home with the children and the other can take older children to the library, museum or park etc. It allows for both age groups to have their needs met and to enhance programming. This option should also be considered.

Parents need choices and options and children need to have their needs met with their best interests in mind. Any good provider would advocate for that. I receive several emails and phone calls from parents that are eagerly seeking quality care only to find out that I am full and carry a long waiting list. There are several quality home childcares in our city that I often refer these parents to and they are often told that they are full as well. The great ones are always full leaving parents to choose substandard care. Their ability to choose quality care and attain their first choice (or often second and third choice) for care is not always possible and they are left having to settle for the first place that has an opening in order to be able to return to work (often an illegal daycare or in the care of someone who is not properly trained or offering a quality environment)

I firmly believe that we should be overseen for quality and minimum standards. By providing a means of licensing home child care parents could rest assured that they were some minimum requirements required in order to open your door and welcome children in the morning. We would all like to help make a difference in supporting families in Ontario. Please advocate to protect parents for the right to chose the child care option that works best for them by providing more choices and not limiting them.

About 80% of children are cared for providers like myself and I would hate to see the government not include us in this discussion. The media witchhunt against home child care providers is insulting to our work. The dedication many of us bring to this profession early each morning as we open our doors to these young children should be praised. We are the ones planning crafts, shopping on weekends for groceries, cleaning the space after hours, meal planning, interviewing families, and thinking of these little people as we fall asleep. We allow parents to go to work, for the economy to function and for some of us it has allowed us to raise our own children while making an income. We are business women who pay taxes and write receipts for parents. Yes, there are some providers who have ruined our credibility but the majority of us would like to reinstate the public’s trust and become accountable through a registration process.

I would really like to see the province get this right and make the system work for everyone!

Just wanted to say that they have introduced a two provider model for agency providers

[username]

Yes please! That is why I posted it but forgot to mention to everyone to use what they like!:)

[sunnydays]

The link doesn't work for me. Can anybody repost it??



Someone posted a copy of the actual act on facebook. Note this section looks like they have addressed the ratios just forgot to mention that part or at least that is all I can find in the act relating to ages and stages.

unlicensed child care, five children or less
2. The child care provided at the premises meets the following criteria:
services de garde non agréés : maximum de cinq enfants
2. Les services de garde fournis dans le local remplis-sent les critères suivants :
i. The child care is provided for no more than five children or, if a lesser number is pre-scribed by the regulations, no more than the prescribed number of children.
i. Les services de garde sont fournis pour au maximum cinq enfants ou le nombre inférieur prescrit par les règlements, le cas échéant.
ii. There is no agreement between a home child care agency and the child care provider that provides for the agency’s oversight of the provision of care.
ii. Le fournisseur de services de garde n’a pas conclu d’entente avec une agence de services de garde en milieu familial prévoyant que celle-ci supervise la prestation des services.
iii. The group of children does not include more than two children who are younger than two years old.

The entire act can be viewed here and a pdf is available for saving.

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?loca le=en&BillID=2913&detailPage=bills_det ail_the_bill

[Artsand crafts]

what are your thoughts on taking full versus part time kids when this comes into effect. It can be difficult enough to fill opposite days so when we are already restricted with ages and numbers do we want to run the risk of having days open in the younger age groups?

I currently don't do part time since since our spaces are limited and there are plenty of 12mo full time kids, but now I will consider getting part time kids over 3 yo since this is the age that starts to get difficult to get. I will never accept an under 2 part time and I am thinking on increasing the fee on that age bracket since those spots will become premium

[treeholm]

http://www.thepetitionsite. com/934/677/379/parents-caregivers-against-the-proposed-childcare-modernization-act/

[playfelt]

I can't get to the link now either and have been back a few times today checking things again and again to be sure I read it right - thinking the website itself is likely totally bogged down as it worked for me up until "daycare naptime".

[sunnydays]

Yesterday I was not panicking about this...thinking there may be lots of time before it passes, but what Crafty posted has actual caused me to feel sick in my stomach :( I just started a new one year old...I now have 4 under 2 and all 5 are under 3...plus my own two kids will count as they are 3.5 and 5.5. I would have to close my daycare. Where are all these kids going to go??? I would probably stay open with three kids for a little while until I work out a plan for what the @#$#@ I am going to do...or at least until September when my daughter starts school full-time. But that means I will have to terminate 2 of my kids :( It would have to be the two youngest whose moms are just returning to work...really crappy for them and financially terrible for me :(

[Artsand crafts]

Just wanted to say that they have introduced a two provider model for agency providers

I heard that in another forum, but no one provided a link to read this. Could you share your source? Thanks

[playfelt]

Before anyone starts a writing campaign we need to get the ratio information correct. It appears the 3 under 3 rule for example is gone. That will help most of us out at least somewhat. They have added the 2 under 2 for private care as well as now we have to count our own under age 6 in those 5. It sounds like our own over 6 don't matter. The rule about the over age 10 not counting is deceiving too because there is a place that defines a "child" as anyone under age 13 so we need to make sure of that rule too as it effects after school kids. The assumption then is that kids under that age ie school age kids not your own may have to be part of the 5 daycare - ie one over age 6 for everyone of our own under age 6 like agency care does now. In effect both private and agency have the same age rules in effect.

I did think of one scenario that could help us being licensed though although a lot to go through. We don't make enough to let agency take a cut on all 6 spaces but if registered, placed 5 in of our own privately and then let the agency give us the 6th child and only took a pay cut for that child it could work to our benefit but a lot of hassle for an extra few dollars a day.

[giraffe]

I heard that in another forum, but no one provided a link to read this. Could you share your source? Thanks

Arts and crafts... Part 2 PROTECTIVE MEASURES; home child are; B

[sunnydays]

Playfelt, thanks for this info. That is certainly an option...if we could possibly find a 6th child that fits in the ratios! Basically it would have to be a 3 year old or school-ager. And agency rates for school-agers aren't even worth the bother. I am writing to my MPP right now, so thanks for the clarification on ages. I would still have to let two kids go if this comes into effect right away. But as of summer when two of mine turn 2 I guess I could have 2 more babies then (I happen to have two families on mat leave who would sure be happy to have the spaces). It will make for a long 6 months of low income...but realistically I can't close my daycare before September anyway when my daughter is in school.

[gravy_train]

does anyone know if under age 2 means under 24 months?

[Artsand crafts]

I did think of one scenario that could help us being licensed though although a lot to go throuegh. We don't make enough to let agency take a cut on all 6 spaces but if registered, placed 5 in of our own privately and then let the agency give us the 6th child and only took a pay cut for that child it could work to our benefit but a lot of hassle for an extra few dollars a day.

That is a great idea Playfelt. That could work. When I worked for an agency I was allowed to have private clients and kids from other agencies. They preferred to take on providers that have the under 2 spots available since these spots are high demand with agencies, but we could find the 6th kid through our usual marketing tools and then presented them to the agencies to be enrolled through them. We can even include in our marketing that we are licensed since many providers that are currently affiliated to agencies do that since most parents don't know that the agency is the one with a license.

[pink]

After reading the Backgrounder http://news.ontario.ca/edu/en/2013/12/child-care-modernization-act.html

Paragraph 2

2) Increase access to spaces in licensed home child care settings

Under the act, the number of children that licensed home child care providers could care for would increase from five to six. If all current licensed home child care providers took on one additional space, they would create approximately 6,000 new child care spaces.

Unlicensed child care providers would still be permitted to care for a maximum of five children, but they would have to follow the same rules as licensed providers for relevant age groupings and count their own children under the age of six toward the maximum number of children permitted in care.

One of the main reasons why we are not licensed it due to the fact that it doesn't pay enough money to be licensed. Since, the talk of this new legislation, I have been seeking employment, it's not the best scenario for my family but what else are we suppose to do. We need to all earn a certain amount of income, this is very upsetting and frustrating.

There is a facebook page entitled Opposed to the Child Care Modernization Act here is the link https://www.facebook.com/opposedtoccma?notif_ t=fbpage_fan_invite

[momofnerds]

I think they need to leave the ratio as is and start clamping down more. The ministry needs to step up and really start investigating. I don't understand that if they had a hard time before keeping up, how are they going to be able to keep up now.

[bright sparks]

I have actually already told all my daycare parents that there won't be a rate increase next year.....they are going to be pissed off when this bill gets passed and I raise my rates for ages 2 & under. I already charge $45 a day M-Th and would have to up it to $50. I also have a m,t & th who I would likely have to insist takes the 4th day also as I will not be able to fill a single day. I am also worried about those stay at home mums charging far less than us seasoned business operators who do the job simply to be home with their kids but don't need the money. They will likely be able to cope with only 2 or 3 kids financially speaking, in fact they probably don't want to be full in the first place. By me and others like me raising our rates, any spots the SAHM's have will fill quicker. Parents will also be forced to shop for a dcp primarily looking at daily rates due to those needing to increase rates and the parents having less affordable options.

[playfelt]

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?loca le=en&BillID=2913&detailPage=bills_det ail_the_bill

Just tried again and it works now. There is a place to download a pdf of the bill so if the link doesn't work send me an email and I will send you the pdf I saved.

[playfelt]

under age 2 means child has not had their second birthday. From the day the child has had their second birthday they in the over age 2 grouping

[Artsand crafts]

This is what it read about 2 caregivers model. So if this part is approved seems that a home daycare affiliated to an agency could have up to 12 kids if there are 2 caregivers. That also could be an option.




home child care

1. The child care provided at the premises meets the following criteria:

i. The child care is provided,

A. by one child care provider for no more than six children or, if a lesser number is prescribed in accordance with subsection (6), no more than the prescribed number of children, or

B. if the regulations so provide, by two child care providers for no more than twice the number of children that applies for the purposes of sub-subparagraph A or, if a lesser number is prescribed, no more than the prescribed number of children.

[KingstonMom]

I am concerned about what to do when my son starts JK in September. If he is ever sick or home from school on a PA day then he counts towards my limit of 5. Not mentioning that I will most likely be doing his school run, or even if I hire a student to walk him to and from, there is still that hour before and after school that he will be at home. So since I have 3 kids, one will be in JK, I still can only take in 2 daycare kids. How am I going to keep doing this?? I haven't mentioned anything to my parents, nor have they mentioned. I am just super upset that I need to figure out which 2 I will have to term. :(

[playfelt]

Arts and crafts... Part 2 PROTECTIVE MEASURES; home child are; B

This is in the act which makes it sound like we can't have two providers and double the kids.

(8) For greater certainty, the number of child care providers at a premises shall not affect the number of children for whom child care may be provided in the circumstances set out in paragraph 2 of subsection (3).

[cfred]

signed it, thanks

[Crayola kiddies]

I also read somewhere that this is something the Liberals have come up with but they have to get approved by the Conservatives before it goes through since the Liberals are minority so it could be a good idea to write letters to some conservative representatives too.

well if that isn't enough incentive to stop voting liberal ...I don't know what is !!!!!

[sunnydays]

But if two providers with an agency can have 12 kids, wouldn't they stil have to follow the ratios? Wouldn't it be even worse? Not sure how this would help at all as it would still be 6 per provider and following the ratios.

[cfred]

I've hated the Liberals for ages. The full day kindergarten was just the cherry on the sundae. Now, I see them for the crooked, irresponsible schnooks they really are. Had they done their jobs properly, perhaps we wouldn't even be in this mess.

[sunnydays]

I am not telling my daycare families anything at the moment. I have no idea what the timeline is on this and I don't want to cause them unnecessary stress and worry or risk losing them to a centre if they get in. If they ask me about it I will tell them the truth..I have no idea if or when this will happen but it is certainly possible! I also know exactly who will have to go as I will have to let go the two youngest who are also the two most recent to join...I would be bascially going by seniority which seems the fairest to me. I have no idea what those two families will do for care though as nobody will have space for one year olds!!!!!!!!

[momofnerds]

look at the even bigger picture, not only will we be effected, but so will parents and their jobs. When a parent can't find daycare then they will have to stay home, which will put a company in a bind too when they have to hire another employee. And what are the schools going to do with the kids that are over the age of 10 since they won't be allowed to go to the programs.

[Artsand crafts]

This is in the act which makes it sound like we can't have two providers and double the kids.

(8) For greater certainty, the number of child care providers at a premises shall not affect the number of children for whom child care may be provided in the circumstances set out in paragraph 2 of subsection (3).

Take another look at that section Playfelt. It even continues with :




iv. The group of children does not include,

A. in the circumstances described in sub-subparagraph i A, more than two children who are younger than two years old,

B. in the circumstances described in sub-subparagraph i B, more than four children who are younger than two years old or, if a lesser number is prescribed, more than the prescribed number, or

It seems that if you are affiliated to an agency you could have up to 4 kids under 2yo. and total the double allowed (12 kids) if there are 2 caregivers.

[sunnydays]

Arts and Crafts, I am not sure how that helps though. It is still the same numbers per provider...still the same income per provider. Or I guess if you hired an assistant and paid them less maybe you would be ahead....but the thought of 12 kids in my daycare is a bit crazy!

[Crayola kiddies]

I've hated the Liberals for ages. The full day kindergarten was just the cherry on the sundae. Now, I see them for the crooked, irresponsible schnooks they really are. Had they done their jobs properly, perhaps we wouldn't even be in this mess.

the liberals have been criminal for years ....not sure how they get away with out being charged in our leagal system but .....the gas plant cancellation, here in Ottawa the green bin fiasco, ......hydro is going up 42% in the next five years .....we are going to be in the same pickle as Detroit before long

[Artsand crafts]

Arts and Crafts, I am not sure how that helps though. It is still the same numbers per provider...still the same income per provider. Or I guess if you hired an assistant and paid them less maybe you would be ahead....but the thought of 12 kids in my daycare is a bit crazy!

At least that could be an option instead of having to close. You don't have to share 50% of your income. You can hire an assistant. Currently having an assistant has made much of a difference. I have 5 kids and I easily think I could have other 3 or 5 no problem with her, maybe more (I'd have to try). Since my days are very light with 2 people here she is mostly cleaning, cooking, doing laundry, etc most of the time. All areas are always spotless. When I need her the most for daycare is when we have field trips or when I need her to watch kids to do my daycare paperwork, but if I get to have 12 kids for sure she would have to be more focused on the kids than on household activities.

[treeholm]

I am not telling my daycare families anything at the moment. I have no idea what the timeline is on this and I don't want to cause them unnecessary stress and worry or risk losing them to a centre if they get in. If they ask me about it I will tell them the truth..I have no idea if or when this will happen but it is certainly possible! I also know exactly who will have to go as I will have to let go the two youngest who are also the two most recent to join...I would be bascially going by seniority which seems the fairest to me. I have no idea what those two families will do for care though as nobody will have space for one year olds!!!!!!!!

I am not criticizing you for not telling your parents yet, that is a tough decision. I'm on the fence... but, I am very stressed out about the fact that if it passes over Christmas, I have to email my families during the holidays and tell them my daycare is not re-opening Jan 6th as they expect according to their contract... How would you feel as a parent? It's not like they can just take their child to work... and where are they going to find daycare when they have to apply for a spot between Christmas and New Year's? Can I really do that to them? I'm not telling you what you should do, I'm agonizing out loud... I have awesome parents... I just can't bear to close up suddenly over Christmas, but I have to keep my grandchildren... which means getting rid of all my paying clients...on January 6th...

[Isawitfirst]

Sorry if this has already been addressed but are ten year olds counted in the five children rule? Has the age really been changed to 13? I am about to tell my oldest client that I can no longer care for her children. Am in shock.

[cfred]

It is my understanding that the definition of a 'child' is up to age 13 now. Ugh....this is all confusing.

I want to clarify....the 1 under 1, 2 under 2, 3 under 3 has gone out the window, correct? It's just 2 under 2 now? I thought I read that earlier. If so, it doesn't affect me till next year, and I still might be able to swing it. Still jacking up my rates for incoming little ones after my April client starts.

[Isawitfirst]

Cfred what will you increase your rate to? I am in Pickering and am considering this as well.

[playfelt]

I have taken on a school age child over age 10 as an emergency case with no promises other than I would get her through till the end of the semester - her nanny quit suddenly. Child has special needs and goes on van from my driveway so no issues there. Under the old system not a problem but with the new rules it wouldn't even be an option to have him stay past Christmas - not that I really want him to anyways. I know for sure mom isn't going to be following all this talk so it will be me breaking this news to her. Anyone in Orleans interested in being a nanny?

[Isawitfirst]

Playfelt, Do you know where in the Act it defines the child as one under 13? I have two ten year olds that I guess I must terminate. Can I let them finish the year? What kind of time line do we have?

[sunnydays]

If it truly is just 2 under two but we can have as many under 3 up to 5 kids, I will only have to terminate 2 babies, but will not close my daycare immediately. That means two newly returned to work moms will be in big trouble...but what can I do? I just don't want to tell them now and lose the kids and then find out it didn't pass or it passed but will come into effect months down the road. I just feel it's a bit up in the air still...but I am agonizing too. This is just a crappy situation all around!!!

[cfred]

Cfred what will you increase your rate to? I am in Pickering and am considering this as well.

If it's 2 under 2, I'm actually ok for a good while as the ages of the kids I have now and coming in are staggered well. That may work ok for me. And my kids are young adults and teens, so that's cool. I feel so bad for those of you with younger ones! I think I'll have to wait and see what the market can bear here. I moved here 18 mos ago and raised my rates $5 above the norm. There was no problem getting clients and now others have started following suit. I suspect I'll go as high as $55, but do it slowly....test the waters. I can always advertise spaces high and lower it to see what happens....do a little fishing if you will. Of course, I'll go as high as I can so I can maintain the high standards in leaner times. I suspect I'll have to up the anty with my offerings and be a bit more aggressive with my advertising, etc. Ugh....I'm sooooo not an aggressive, business type. Blah......I just want to work with kids, not navigate through this crap!

[Fun&care]

I know many of you don't want to tell your clients but when I told one dcm her response was " oh yeah all the moms were talking about it at work". So there is a pretty good chance they already know about it but are waiting for you to say something...instead of scaring them why not ask them to help you by signing the petition that was posted earlier and writing letters to those idiots who started this mess? I think that's the better way to go.

[playfelt]

Playfelt, Do you know where in the Act it defines the child as one under 13? I have two ten year olds that I guess I must terminate. Can I let them finish the year? What kind of time line do we have?

At the very beginning of the report it lists definitions for terms in the report and under child it mentions the age 13

“child” means a person who is younger than 13 years old; (“enfant”)

[bright sparks]

At the very beginning of the report it lists definitions for terms in the report and under child it mentions the age 13

“child” means a person who is younger than 13 years old; (“enfant”)

But the bill specifically says for home daycare providers that the maximum is 5 children including their own under the age of 6 not 10 or 13. The bill just states that where the word child is used it is refeeing to a child under 13.

[playfelt]

I spoke with my mom of the 10 year old tonight and she knew nothing about it so was a total shock to her. I promised to send her the pdf by email for her to look at. Timeline is also a big factor in all of this. There will be some that would be over in kids in January but not in February if a child had a birthday. A lot of things say effective immediately but the rules aren't rigidly enforced right away and there are only warnings not fines to help people adjust so we can only hope.

[momofnerds]

I just can't see it going down asap. They need to give parents time to find alternate care. I wouldn't inform anyone till all the ducks are in a row.

[playfelt]

But the bill specifically says for home daycare providers that the maximum is 5 children including their own under the age of 6 not 10 or 13. The bill just states that where the word child is used it is refeeing to a child under 13.

Which means they have removed the privilege of having school kids over age 10 as well as your allowed daycare kids ie 5 kids + any over 10

They have also effectively removed most of them anyways because schools are to provide care for those gr 1 and up. The scrambling families will be those going back after mat leave with infants and those with school age kids till more spaces are created. Even though agency care can take one more most homes already have their 2 under 2.

[treeholm]

I don't think there is any talk of giving parents time to find alternate care, because the reality is, many parents won't be able to... and when some of us start terminating Jan 6th, it will put all the other parents into a panic as well. What we need is for the parents to panic NOW before it is passed, so they can protest, not just wait until is a done deal and they are terminated.

[bright sparks]

As a few people have mentioned their concerns about children aged 10 and whether they would have to terminate them, let me clarify what the bill says, I quote...

Children of the provider

(5) For the purposes of counting children at a premises under paragraphs 1 and 2 of subsection (3), a child care provider’s own children who are at the premises shall be counted unless they are six years old or older.

This very clearly translates to me as providers children under 6 are counted.

I can not find any reference to the oldest child we can take on within our 5 cap.

[momofnerds]

As a few people have mentioned their concerns about children aged 10 and whether they would have to terminate them, let me clarify what the bill says, I quote...

Children of the provider

(5) For the purposes of counting children at a premises under paragraphs 1 and 2 of subsection (3), a child care provider’s own children who are at the premises shall be counted unless they are six years old or older.

This very clearly translates to me as providers children under 6 are counted.

I can not find any reference to the oldest child we can take on within our 5 cap.

I can't find it either.

[bright sparks]

Which means they have removed the privilege of having school kids over age 10 as well as your allowed daycare kids ie 5 kids + any over 10

They have also effectively removed most of them anyways because schools are to provide care for those gr 1 and up. The scrambling families will be those going back after mat leave with infants and those with school age kids till more spaces are created. Even though agency care can take one more most homes already have their 2 under 2.

I understand, although this needs to be clearly defined in the bill versus no mention at all for us to just come to our own conclusions. For those with their own children 6 yrs and older, it at least solves their issues.

[momofnerds]

where does it say that this will take effect jan 6 when we don't even know the whole deal. I have read everything and so far everything is just in proposal, there are no dates except that they "want" to try to do this before the end of the year.

[Crayola kiddies]

I don't think there is any talk of giving parents time to find alternate care, because the reality is, many parents won't be able to... and when some of us start terminating Jan 6th, it will put all the other parents into a panic as well. What we need is for the parents to panic NOW before it is passed, so they can protest, not just wait until is a done deal and they are terminated.

Who says we are terminating families as of jan 6? This hasn't even been passed yet ....

[treeholm]

Sorry, January 6th is the day many of us reopen after Christmas holidays. They want to pass this in the Christmas sitting of the legislature so it can take effect by the end of this year. It's a 2013 amendment. Someone posted above that the person with whom they spoke at the ministry said if it passes, it will come into effect immediately with no delay or grandfathering in of existing daycares. Since I'm on vacation, it won't affect me until I re-open on Jan 6, which is when I will have to refuse to admit my one year olds back into care. I'm sure hoping it doesn't come into effect before I go on Christmas vacation! I don't want to terminate anyone a week before Christmas.. so I'm just assuming I can wait to terminate until Jan 6th.

[bright sparks]

I have made plans to use my energy for greater cause tonight rather than to stress out over this huge mess. I need to sleep but can`t with this whirlwind of unknowns going on in my head so I need to do something with all the info.

I am sitting down with my husband and itemizing exactly where every penny goes to with regards to my daycare and seeing where I can cut costs. It works out well as it is year end too. I am going to create a budget based on only having 3 children and see if I can make it work, through proposing cutting things like organic produce in favour of just conventional whole foods and even possibly getting rid of my minivan which would in turn eliminate extra insurance and loan payment.

I think at this point it is great to have this forum to surmise over all of the goings on, but it could also cause more worry as the more we dig into the unknown the more stressed out we will get which doesn't help anyone. I think it would be a good idea for people to be extremely realistic about their possible future by putting total facts down on paper and consider the realty of our options in our futures of running a viable business in Home daycare.

[treeholm]

I do think we need to call our MPPs and ask what they recommend we tell parents. I know in my area, the daycare centres do not have open spots for one year olds. Many parents have heard awful things about wee watch, so they don't want to go there. So, what does the government have planned in terms of where we should send the children that we will be forced to terminate as soon as this takes effect? I think if enough people phone the MPPs, it might dawn on them that the logistics of this proposed legislation is just not going to work. I know one home daycare provider who has decided today to quickly find a place for her own children, terminate the daycare children, and go back to work outside the home. She was full... that means 7 children are suddenly going to have to find daycare spaces immediately... in a small town where she was able to fill her own daycare immediately because there is such a shortage of spaces...

[Artsand crafts]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/12/04/wynne_liberals_prais ed_for_new_child_car e_legislation.html

[Teagansmom]

Well it looks like that all 3 levels of government are going to pass this bill. For me my kids are older than 6 and I currently have no dc kids as I just relocated a little over a month ago. I feel horrible for all you providers who have young children who will now count in you numbers.

[Other Mummy]

I have 6 children in care at the moment (my 3 year old daughter is included in this count along with my 5 daycare kids). I have a 5 year old and a 10 year old in school full time. My school aged kids are out of the house from 8:30 until 3:30. Some of my daycare kids get dropped off at 9:00am and leave by 4:30. So I will have an overlap of an hour a day.

If this passes I'm only going to let 1 family go (then I will still have 5 kids total in care during the day, my own 3 year old and 4 daycare kids).

How is the gov't going to enforce situations where the school aged children aren't even home during daycare hours (eg. maybe they have after school programs and don't get home till after 4:30). What if there is some sort of overlap.
How are they going to count this? This will be very hard to enforce.

[momofnerds]

Well it looks like that all 3 levels of government are going to pass this bill. For me my kids are older than 6 and I currently have no dc kids as I just relocated a little over a month ago. I feel horrible for all you providers who have young children who will now count in you numbers.

acually if you read further down it says "if approved" so nothing has been approved. And it says that children under 10 are going to count in numbers. So its also just a newspaper and we all know how one sided newspapers are.

[Teagansmom]

I was referring to The Toronto Star article which printed that the NDP "welcomed" the new legislation. Really I also meant to say the 3 major parties. I understand that it has not passed yet, however it would only take the liberals and NDP to pass the bill into law.
Your own children 6 and boer would not count.

[playfelt]

The NDP saying the welcomed the bill is really nothing more than politicking on her part in that she knows this is important to the people of Ontario and at the same time is non-committal saying she will read the document before deciding to support it as is - meaning there is still room for improvement/debate in theory. At the same time no party is going to want to be labelled as holding up such "important" legislation.

That under 10 rule is still floating around and mostly I don't think those reporting the news are reading things as closely as we are because it doesn't effect them nor do they understand the system as it is now. Even on a facebook forum I am on they are arguing the 1 under 1, 2 under 2, 3 under 3 rule and messing everyone up. It seems to be falling on deaf ears to please forget what you know now and go read the new report.

[playfelt]

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/house-proceedings/house_detail.do?Date =2013-12-03&Parl=40&Sess=2&locale=en

If you go to the legislature website you can read the debates (hansard) which is basically the word for word of what went on in the chamber - ie the discussion. You can see where the debate was tabled and then scroll down to each section labelled childcare and you can read what each person that spoke read. If we do this daily we should have a better idea of when and how this will pass. The other parties are not simply jumping on the bandwagon yet. That does buy us some time.

[Artsand crafts]

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/house-proceedings/house_detail.do?Date =2013-12-03&Parl=40&Sess=2&locale=en

If you go to the legislature website you can read the dabates (hansard) which is basically the word for word of what went on in the chamber - ie the discussion. You can see where the debate was tabled and then scroll down to each section labelled childcare and you can read what each person that spoke read. If we do this daily we should have a better idea of when and how this will pass. The other parties are not simply jumping on the bandwagon yet. That does buy us some time.


Thank you for the link! It seems that this still will take a little bit of time based on what has been mentioned, such as:


Miss Monique Taylor:

This is an extensive bill, and it is one that we will need to look at very closely. We have a general overview, but we know that the devil is always in the details. New Democrats want to see prompt debate on this bill, and we want to see extensive hearings at committee, to make sure that we’re finally getting it right.

Existing problems in the child care sector just don’t require new legislation; they require commitment to action. This government must act on each and every complaint received about child care in Ontario, and they must ensure that there are enough inspectors to do the job. New legislation won’t save lives if complaints continue to be ignored.

I also look forward to the forthcoming recommendations from the Ombudsman on this matter. I hope that those recommendations, along with a thorough review of the new legislation, can be used to improve child care in Ontario.

[sunnydays]

Playfelt...again I can't get the link to work...but maybe it is bogged down. I will keep trying. I am wondering how they will actually get the new rules to unlicensed caregivers. I mean, many of us are here and informed...but we all know many many caregivers have no clue that this is happening. Do you think they will use income taxes to determine who is a caregiver and send us all something with the new rules? Of course those who are not reporting their income will be missed...but they are already illegal, so no change there.
I decided to tell my daycare parents and ask them to write letters to oppose this. I told them not to panic as we don't know if or when this will come into effect, but I did tell them that if it passes I will have to let two of the kids go. I am hoping they will write letters. I think we need all the support we can get.

[sunnydays]

Okay, I got on. And I can also see the the second reading of the act is planned for tomorrow. I will be keeping my eyes on that tomorrow for sure to see how things are looking.

[giraffe]

I have 6 children in care at the moment (my 3 year old daughter is included in this count along with my 5 daycare kids). I have a 5 year old and a 10 year old in school full time. My school aged kids are out of the house from 8:30 until 3:30. Some of my daycare kids get dropped off at 9:00am and leave by 4:30. So I will have an overlap of an hour a day.

If this passes I'm only going to let 1 family go (then I will still have 5 kids total in care during the day, my own 3 year old and 4 daycare kids).

How is the gov't going to enforce situations where the school aged children aren't even home during daycare hours (eg. maybe they have after school programs and don't get home till after 4:30). What if there is some sort of overlap.
How are they going to count this? This will be very hard to enforce.
What about the summer and pd days?

[treeholm]

I have read the transcripts of the proceedings, and I've read several newspaper articles. I cannot see mention of the "3 under 3" rule anywhere. The proposed legislation mentions no more than 5 children in an unregulated daycare, or 6 in a regulated daycare. In both situations the daycare provider's children would now be counted, so the "5 plus your own" rule is gone. In both situations, you can have no more than two children under two years of age.

[cfred]

I think that's correct treeholm......just 2 under 2. Again, I THINK. Thank doG for small miracles. The 2 under 2 still sucks, but is better than the other. How's your set up looking? Have to cut anyone?

[crafty]

So ... What I want to know is what we NEED to do. What's the plan to help get our side spoken and heard before this is passed. Are we rallying or what ? Because I really don't get how this new bill is going to save a childs life. Most fatal incidents were in daycares already ''illegal' ... so really this to me is just a political thing. There SHOULD be new regulations and put in place with a PLAN a clear PLAN not just like this. SO what ?? Do we all right to our MP's with statements from our parents ?? Are we going down there what ? This new bill doe nothing but cut throats !

[sunnydays]

So ... What I want to know is what we NEED to do. What's the plan to help get our side spoken and heard before this is passed. Are we rallying or what ? Because I really don't get how this new bill is going to save a childs life. Most fatal incidents were in daycares already ''illegal' ... so really this to me is just a political thing. There SHOULD be new regulations and put in place with a PLAN a clear PLAN not just like this. SO what ?? Do we all right to our MP's with statements from our parents ?? Are we going down there what ? This new bill doe nothing but cut throats !

I have written a letter to each of the people in this list (provided by the CCPRN). I have also told my dc parents what is happening and asked them to write letters as well detailing how this will affect them personally.

Please send your stories to:

lsandals.mpp@liberal .ola.org Hon Liz Sandals (Minister of Education)

bbalkissoon.mpp@libe ral.ola.org Bas Balkissoon (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Education)

Jim.Grieve@ontario.c a Jim Grieve (Assistant Deputy Minister, Early Learning Division, Ministry of Education)

rob.leone@pc.ola.org Rob Leone (Conservative Opposition/Education Critic)

tabunsp-qp@ndp.on.ca Peter Tabuns (NDP Opposition/Education Critic)

[momofnerds]

I think what makes me more mad than anything else is that because of a parents error-being neglectful that now we all have to suffer including parents because they won't have no where to go. I really think we need to go after this parent and sue the pants off of her because she wanted cheap daycare well thats great but now we are all going to lose our incomes because of her.

[Teagansmom]

Crafty great idea, I think we should all do something more drastic then write letters. I'm thinking why all dc providers take a day off and march to city halls, or parliament hill. Perhaps with all the parents having no dc for the day and have to miss work the economy will take a little hit. Maybe all the dc families may join with the children. Just a thought

[crafty]

I would be willing to do it !

[gravy_train]

The other issue is that in light of the increase in safety enforcement and the massive fines that go with a violation, we really need a specific safety criteria in writing. Otherwise how do we know if we are in violation of a safety issue?

[Teagansmom]

Exactly gravy train, it's hard for most people to read actual acts.....they can be very confusing. How does the gov plan on informing all of us? Knowing how greedy the gov is they may hand out fines right away to make money and also make a point of shutting down "illegal" dc just to prove that their bill was the right thing to do in order to protect children.

[KingstonMom]

I wonder how many providers will have to go with an agency. Currently I would have to lose all but TWO of my daycare kids. I am expecting my 3rd baby in February and all of my own kids will be aged 3 and under so all within the limit of 5. :(
There is no way I can do this with only 2 daycare kids. Maybe with 3 if I go with wee watch, but I am curious if I will even make much money after they take their cut.
My families and my husband all implied the "who's gonna know your not following the rules" suggestion. What do I tell them? "Will you help pay the fine if/when I DO get inspected??" lol

[gravy_train]

Yes, Teagansmom and I'm sure the enforcers will also have the media on speed dial. Personally, I have a swimming pool and a neighbour with a chip on his shoulders so am especially nervous about the vagueness of the safety code.

[gravy_train]

Would love some more links to articles in the media today I anyone has them.

[Other Mummy]

You know there will be a huge ripple and backlash when this goes through. Parents are going to be livid with increased rates, trying to find daycare for 2 or more of their children (if they are all under 2 years for eg.) So what's a parent to do? Send 2 or 3 children to different providers in order to follow the 2 under 2, etc?

[treeholm]

What I just do not understand, is that every news report I have watched or article I have read, is praising the government for taking decisive action to increase safety. NO ONE has mentioned that there will be a huge shortage of spots for one year olds. My daughter emailed me to say that the media is reporting that there will be MORE spots for children. I told her yes, they are increasing spots in licensed daycares from 5 to 6, so there will be more spots, AS LONG AS your child is two or over... NO one is talking in the media about the fact that it is already tough for one year olds to find spots, so where are they supposed to go? I have a friend just starting her daycare now, as her own mat leave just ended. She is full, with five one year olds, plus her own almost one year old, and a two year old. She took deposits for some of those spots for children to begin in January. If this law passes, she will have to fire FOUR of her families and return those deposits... families who paid her months ago to secure their spot and relax.. they will suddenly be terminated with no notice... I've been shaking my head for two days... no wonder I have a headache.
Yes, I'm glad the three under three thing is not mentioned anywhere. That means that I can probably continue for now. I have a little boy turning two in April, and he comes four days a week. If I juggle him with my grandson, who is three months old, and only comes a couple of times a week when my kids are running errands, I can make this work. But if I had my own little children and had to count them in my numbers now, I'd be toast. I feel so badly for so many care providers, and for so many families. And I just can't believe the media hasn't clued in to this potential crisis!

[playfelt]

Crafty great idea, I think we should all do something more drastic then write letters. I'm thinking why all dc providers take a day off and march to city halls, or parliament hill. Perhaps with all the parents having no dc for the day and have to miss work the economy will take a little hit. Maybe all the dc families may join with the children. Just a thought

Would have to be a whole week off by the time we travelled to Toronto and did the rally and stormed the legislature etc with our demands. Not to mention the week off our spouses would need to do childcare for us while we were gone.

[Teagansmom]

Would have to be a whole week off by the time we travelled to Toronto and did the rally and stormed the legislature etc with our demands. Not to mention the week off our spouses would need to do childcare for us while we were gone.

Maybe everyone can march to their local city hall, parliamentary building or MPP office in their own cities. I know city hall have nothing to do with this act but I'm sure if there is a large gathering the media would follow.

[playfelt]

As with a lot of bills it starts out as one thing but they bury other details in it that only come to light down the road which is one of the things basically the opposition said - we want to know everything we are agreeing to and will be reading all of it. Yes there is lots in there about safety and the inspections and powers of inspection and I really don't think it is as scary as it seems as it is a response to the Vaughan incident when media learned no one had the authority to really do anything except pass the buck to another ministry.

Then in the same bill they decided to address the inequities between licensed and unlicensed home daycare and that is the part the effects us directly. Think of this as two bills wrapped up in one - a very common tactic.

[treeholm]

So really, it is the opposition parties we need to go to with our concerns, so they can make it look like the Liberals haven't thought this through. Both conservatives and the NDP will love to come in looking like a hero!

[sunnydays]

I know there will be a lot of providers who decide to just continue business as usual and take their chances...but I am not one of them. I am not willing to gamble my families entire financial stability if there is even a 1% chance that someone will report me for being over my numbers and being slapped with a $250, 000 fine!!! I have two young kids of my own and 5 daycare kids...I have always wondered if someone would report me thinking I am over limit, but I have never worried because I know I am not. With this new law, I will be over limit and the risk is way too huge. Once my son turns 6 in May, I could have 4 daycare kids...and maybe like Playfelt said, I could join an agency (shudder..groan...gr rrr) to get the 6 kid limit and have one kid through them...that would put me almost at what I am now (just minus the money the agency scoops from that one child). I could probably make up that difference by raising my rates by $5 per child per day for under 2 spots. BUT, the problem will be finding kids over 2 for three of my spaces. I might have to suck it up and provide before and after care...I don't know.
I am not sure about a rally...I worry that it will come across as us providers not wanting to improve the safety of the kids in daycare.

[bright sparks]

I know there will be a lot of providers who decide to just continue business as usual and take their chances...but I am not one of them. I am not willing to gamble my families entire financial stability if there is even a 1% chance that someone will report me for being over my numbers and being slapped with a $250, 000 fine!!!.

My husband and I have already talked about this and if the details of the bill outlining the specifics surrounding what we could get fined for are petty things that could easily occur from people misinterpreting what they see and reporting us then it's too huge a risk to take. I have never been reported and always play by the rules but I have heard so many stories on here of neighbours being morons that it just wouldn't be worth the risk if it's as easy as that to get a fine so big that I could risk loosing my home.

[playfelt]

Quote: "I am not sure about a rally...I worry that it will come across as us providers not wanting to improve the safety of the kids in daycare. "

It needs to be a rally by the parents that will be effected by this new system but then us supporting them.

As far as your son goes, no one is going to know who is registered and who is not so having the 6th child will be the norm for some and not others as well as no one knowing how old a child is so for that we stand to benefit from the peering eyes.

[Teagansmom]

My husband and I have already talked about this and if the details of the bill outlining the specifics surrounding what we could get fined for are petty things that could easily occur from people misinterpreting what they see and reporting us then it's too huge a risk to take. I have never been reported and always play by the rules but I have heard so many stories on here of neighbours being morons that it just wouldn't be worth the risk if it's as easy as that to get a fine so big that I could risk loosing my home.

My brother in law was telling me that I should consider becoming a corporation, this would protect me from losing my home.

[Teagansmom]

Yes, maybe a rally may not be a good idea. I'm just thinking of a way to get the media to hear us out. I am all for more safety measures put in place.

[playfelt]

We need to get the parents to be upset and afraid and voice their opinions. Otherwise it is just a bunch of us whining about a loss of income but who is going to have sympathy when the safety of kids is involved. One of the reasons they linked both parts of the reform to one bill. On the other hand from a positive standpoint getting the bill passed on the safety angle is going to be fairly easy meaning the other changes just get included. Really the options were to totally remove the unlicensed option which is what most had feared was going to happen. This may be the best we can get and still exist.

[username]

I think we should be pushing for registration where by we would apply each year for a permit. It would be displayed in our front window (like most businesses that require permits) to notify parents and neighbours of each home's capacity whether it be 3-8 children. It would also state if the provider had her own children under the age of 6. All paperwork (proof of liability, fire inspection, CPR training etc.) would me submitted electronically or my mail and a permit would be issued on an annual basis. Providers would pay for a site inspection possibly to a registering body through the government, an agency or perhaps the OEYC. The amount of children you could care for would be determined by the ages of the provider's own children, location, space available, training, perhaps a fenced yard etc. but each site could be assessed separately...again, paid for by the provider. The permit would contain the number of children allowed and who to call should you believe the provider is in violation of the permit.

[sunnydays]

This is what is happening today in legislature (it looks as though they really are trying to push it through fast):
CHILD CARE CENTRES

Mr. Steven Del Duca: My question today is for the Minister of Education. I was pleased to learn yesterday about the steps that our government is taking to strengthen oversight of the province’s unlicensed child care sector while increasing access to licensed child care options for families.

1120

I’m even more pleased to learn that our government has placed a priority on reforming a piece of legislation that hasn’t been reviewed in 30 years. Over the last year, we’ve all seen heartbreaking tragedy in my community of Vaughan within the unlicensed sector. I understand that much of the proposed legislation is aimed at addressing oversight within the unlicensed sector that could help prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

Speaker, through you to the minister, can she please describe how this legislation will improve and strengthen oversight in this sector?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Thank you, Speaker, and thank you to the member for Vaughan for raising this important issue.

The member is absolutely correct. This legislation is overdue for a comprehensive update. That is why, well over a year ago, we began to consult with parents and stakeholders on how to update the legislation.

I’m proud of the legislation which was tabled yesterday in this House and which, if passed, will improve oversight in the unlicensed sector. If passed, it will allow the province to immediately shut down a child care provider when a child’s safety is at risk. It would give the province the authority to issue administrative penalties of up to $100,000 per infraction by a child care provider. It would also increase the maximum penalty for illegal offences under the act from $2,000 in the current act to $250,000 in the new act. It would increase the number of children a licensed home-based child care provider can care for from five to six, and it would require all private schools that care for children under four to have a licence.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Steven Del Duca: I thank the minister for her response. I also know that our government has already taken steps to improve the oversight of child care. These include a dedicated enforcement team to investigate complaints against unlicensed providers and the development of an online searchable database of validated complaints.

Speaker, through you to the minister, can the minister please share with this House why this piece of legislation is critical and why it needs to move through our legislative process as quickly as possible?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Another excellent question from the member from Vaughan.

As the member pointed out in the previous question, the current piece of legislation that governs child care, the Day Nurseries Act, was enacted in 1946 and has not been comprehensively updated since 1983. Speaker, that’s 30 years ago. The legislation does not reflect the current needs of our children and parents.

The Child Care Modernization Act would help transform the child care and early years system to better meet the needs of both the parents who use and rely on the system and the children who are placed in its care.

Speaker, I was pleased to hear yesterday from both parties in the House their acknowledgement and understanding of the importance of this legislation. Both of them seem to think we need this legislation quickly, and I hope they will both support and help us to pass the legislation quickly.

[sunnydays]

I took that directly from the legislature website this morning. It is not looking good for us in my opinion.

[Wonderwiper]

Ah good times!!!!

As some of you know....all my daycare kids are under 2 plus I have my own dd under 2 and my dd 3.

Now, I am lucky that my income pays for our extras and we are ok without it because I will have to ditch most of my dck.

I know many of us feel hopeless but aren't really able to rally etc. It takes a few seconds to email every opposition MP as well as media outlets. I just did so using copy and paste!!!

Maybe if enough inboxes are full of the same concerns then someone will notice.

[treeholm]

I just sent this to my Liberal MPP

Hello xxx,
I need to express my serious concerns about the daycare legislation currently being proposed by the Liberals. I am all for improving the safety of our children and grandchildren, but there is an important piece of information being left out.
Home daycares usually choose to remain unregistered because of the requirement that registered daycares adhere to ratios of having no more than 2 children under two. Unregistered daycares are permitted no more than 5 children, plus their own, but can have whatever ages they want as long as they remain within the limits of 5 children plus their own.
The Liberals are proposing that unregistered daycares be forced to adhere to those ratios in order to removed the financial incentive to remain unregistered. I understand that... but what will happen to the thousands of one year olds who will immediately lose their daycare spot? For example, I have one friend who has two little ones of her own, plus 5 children under two. She will now have to FIRE four families. They cannot go to registered daycares, because there are no spots for one year olds since the registered daycares already have to follow the "no more than 2 under 2 rule". They can't go to daycare centres, because the spots for one year olds are very limited there as well, due to the high cost of having one year olds. Everyone will be looking for 2 and 3 year olds for their daycares. Home daycares are already suffering because the four year olds have gone to full day Kindergarten. I can't see anyone addressing this in the media. Parents want safer daycares (of course) so think this is a great idea. When I point out to them that if their child is under two, they may very well be fired from their current daycare, they are shocked. They have often spent months during their mat leaves finding a wonderful daycare for their child, and now they will suddenly be told they cannot return to the daycare if this legislation takes effect. Please address this issue with the minister!
Thank you,
my name

[Wonderwiper]

Treeholm...that's similar to what I have been sending, except that I have been sending to the opposition. The liberals are anxious to steam roll this through. It is the opposition who may listen because their job is to scrutinise everything and make their own objections.

[momofnerds]

why is it that most of the incidents happen in the toronto area. Where is the ministry to shut them down. If they can't handle all the complaints how are they going to handle it now. Why are ads on kijjiji still allowed to be there when we clearly see them violating all the rules. Why is no one visiting their homes and why isn't that site being monitored by the ministry. Small steps like this would be better than taking a huge leap. And of course they want to send it thru quickly they are being sued for 4.3 million dollars by the neglectful parent.

[Teagansmom]

why is it that most of the incidents happen in the toronto area. Where is the ministry to shut them down. If they can't handle all the complaints how are they going to handle it now. Why are ads on kijjiji still allowed to be there when we clearly see them violating all the rules. Why is no one visiting their homes and why isn't that site being monitored by the ministry. Small steps like this would be better than taking a huge leap. And of course they want to send it thru quickly they are being sued for 4.3 million dollars by the neglectful parent.

I believe that most incidents happen in the Toronto area is just because of the population.
I advertise on kijiji, so I take a little offence to that. I follow my ratios, I have a bright clean space, I offer nutritious meals, daily outings. I may not have my ECE but I'm a mom of 3 and run an educational program.

[momofnerds]

I believe that most incidents happen in the Toronto area is just because of the population.
I advertise on kijiji, so I take a little offence to that. I follow my ratios, I have a bright clean space, I offer nutritious meals, daily outings. I may not have my ECE but I'm a mom of 3 and run an educational program.

oh, yes I know alot that do advertise and are honest, but there are alot that are not. Have you seen the pics of some of the homes or the number of kids in the pics or the ones that charge 10 or 15 dollars for the whole day, come on someone needs to look into them.

[2cuteboys]

I believe that most incidents happen in the Toronto area is just because of the population.
I advertise on kijiji, so I take a little offence to that. I follow my ratios, I have a bright clean space, I offer nutritious meals, daily outings. I may not have my ECE but I'm a mom of 3 and run an educational program.


I don't think she was insinuating that everyone on kijiji is a bad provider, but you can sometimes tell when they are. When providers advertise for $2-300/month less than their competitors, it can be a red flag for sure.

[Teagansmom]

Yes I understand, I see ads everyday offering care for $100 a week, and see pictures as well.

[momofnerds]

there is an ad on our kijjiji it 2 sisters (they are older not teens) who are advertising for 15 dollars a day, they say that they adhere to the rules but some of the pics they posted make me go hmmm. And they say that they go to ontario early years alot. Now thats a red flag for sure.

[giraffe]

I just sent this to my Liberal MPP

Hello xxx,
I need to express my serious concerns about the daycare legislation currently being proposed by the Liberals. I am all for improving the safety of our children and grandchildren, but there is an important piece of information being left out.
Home daycares usually choose to remain unregistered because of the requirement that registered daycares adhere to ratios of having no more than 2 children under two. Unregistered daycares are permitted no more than 5 children, plus their own, but can have whatever ages they want as long as they remain within the limits of 5 children plus their own.
The Liberals are proposing that unregistered daycares be forced to adhere to those ratios in order to removed the financial incentive to remain unregistered. I understand that... but what will happen to the thousands of one year olds who will immediately lose their daycare spot? For example, I have one friend who has two little ones of her own, plus 5 children under two. She will now have to FIRE four families. They cannot go to registered daycares, because there are no spots for one year olds since the registered daycares already have to follow the "no more than 2 under 2 rule". They can't go to daycare centres, because the spots for one year olds are very limited there as well, due to the high cost of having one year olds. Everyone will be looking for 2 and 3 year olds for their daycares. Home daycares are already suffering because the four year olds have gone to full day Kindergarten. I can't see anyone addressing this in the media. Parents want safer daycares (of course) so think this is a great idea. When I point out to them that if their child is under two, they may very well be fired from their current daycare, they are shocked. They have often spent months during their mat leaves finding a wonderful daycare for their child, and now they will suddenly be told they cannot return to the daycare if this legislation takes effect. Please address this issue with the minister!
Thank you,
my name
You should send this to the media as well

[cfred]

I am an ECE. I have to say that, really, my business will be just fine for quite some time, if not permanently. Given the huge competition there will be for 1 year spaces, I can just up my rates to make up the loss. My children are older, so that doesn't factor in for me.

As I said, I am an ECE. This entire circus has made me realize that all the hard work I put in in school was a complete and utter waste of my time, effort and enthusiasm. This is an industry that places absolutely no value on it's worker's what-so-ever, regardless of background. In the government's eyes, none of us is worth a hill of beans. I looked online yesterday, just to see if daycare wages had improved at all since I abandoned that line of work in 1996. Nope. As an educated provider, I can expect to make a whopping $21, 000/year (no benefits of course). I mustn't forget my wage enhancement cheques, woo hoo! I feel completely devalued and forsaken by a government who is, essentially, using me and my peers as a scapegoat for their own lack of judgement and action in their jobs, ultimately resulting in deaths. For a government who is suddenly screaming about the need to upgrade the system for the betterment of the industry and children, they certainly treat all of us like shit. We are one of the lowest paid industries in this nation. I don't know about you, but I find that very telling with regards to the government's commitment to the children. I chose to go into home daycare, mainly, because (even with an education in the field) this is the ONLY way I can survive financially. That's very, very sad. I want to get licensed, but sadly, my home doesn't even meet the criteria. My entire main floor is daycare and child proofed. But alas, in a townhouse, I don't have 30 sq ft of unobstructed floor space for each child. Nor do I have child sized toilets. Oops, no change table beside a sink either.

My point is this....we need new legislation, agreed? But this is nuts! Why not revamp the entire document? Why not make it POSSIBLE for home providers to license their home, thereby subjecting us to the same inspections, etc. But we need a different licensing standard with regards to environment especially, because home daycare is a different industry than commercial daycare. Perhaps this is something we'd be wise to push for? I've wanted to be licensed forever, but can't. Can't survive on daycare wages either. I would like to not feel that my educational pursuits and years of effort haven't been completely wasted.

[Fun&care]

Cfred you said it beautifully. I too feel COMPLETELY DEVALUED and demoralized. what keeps ringing in my head is how everyone always says how IMPORTATNT the first years of life are and how important kids our to our future but they sure don't give a CRAP about the people who care for them. Nobody is willing to put their money where their mouth is and it's terrible. All this crap about " unlicensed daycare" is making me sick.

I'm lucky I won't be affected immediately by all this but I will suffer probably in the long term.

And them stripping away our rights by slapping us with big fines makes me wonder also if this is going to be worth the risk.

Cfred would you mind if I copy pasted your post and shared on Facebook? I've been trying to get through to everyone and no one seems to get it but I think you out it nicely. I've been sending emails to MPPS etc but I want to do more.

[cfred]

Sure, go ahead....I'm flattered. This whole thing has been just terrible. Financially, it won't really affect, me, as I said. I'm just so sad as I love what I do and feel completely betrayed by the people who are supposed to take care of us.

[playfelt]

Stay at home parents are undervalued and unappreciated. Why should we be any different? Really the reality is that we do what we would do for our own kids if we stayed home and I think in the long run if our daycare parents were staying at home with their kids they would start to do the same things too. Having an ECE or special training doesn't make us a better diaper changer or story reader or cuddler.

[momof5]

As many of you know I have struggled just to fill my spots, I had finally filled them! And now this! I have to now count my own 2 youngest ages 3&4. Now I'm over ratio once this passes, plus the age restriction, I have to term 3 families all at once!
This is completely ridiculous! I'm considering raising my rates for the 2 families that I will have left, or just close completely! Heartbreaking for all the innocent families that will be left with no childcare, also for all of us that will take such a huge financial hit!

[treeholm]

Oh wow... in all this stress, I COMPLETELY missed the fact that we can now double our rates for one year olds since spots will be a hot commodity... wait until we let the media know this... "No problem, we applaud the government for taking steps to keep our children safe, and as long as parents understand that the daily rate for a one year old will probably double due to the lack of available spaces, we're sure everyone will be happy with the new legislation."

[Artsand crafts]

Oh wow... in all this stress, I COMPLETELY missed the fact that we can now double our rates for one year olds since spots will be a hot commodity... wait until we let the media know this... "No problem, we applaud the government for taking steps to keep our children safe, and as long as parents understand that the daily rate for a one year old will probably double due to the lack of available spaces, we're sure everyone will be happy with the new legislation."

and these will be the lucky ones. The rest of under 2yo will not even have a daycare to go even if they want to pay more

[cfred]

Treeholm, that was a realization that hit me last night....and I slept like a baby. This whole situation blows beyond the telling of it. But on the bright side, competition among parents will be fierce for these precious few spots. It might actually be good for business in some ways. And to those with school aged kids counting in the ratio, it might be worth looking into before and after care for them. It might make more financial sense to have them elsewhere so you can bring in the larger fees with the little ones. I think all the fees will go up, not just 1 yr olds. I was worried sick about my own situation, but as I sat and thought it through outside of the heat of the moment, I realized that we can absolutely work this out....those without small children anyway. At least, with the full day kindergarten, even those with young kids only have a few lean years to get through.

Of course I'm only looking at this from MY perspective. I don't have to ax any families...all the ages line up well. So long as no one leaves unexpectedly, we're cool for at least a year or 2. My kids are grown, so that's great. I feel horrible for the posts I'm reading about having to cut 2/3 of client base, thinking about putting off having another child because of the daycare.....awful and I'm so sorry for all of you. I'm simply looking at it from my own, completely self absorbed standpoint right now. While I feel badly for the parents left without care (and I really do feel for them), my main concern is that of my business and being able to keep a roof over my family's head.

[playfelt]

and these will be the lucky ones. The rest of under 2yo will not even have a daycare to go even if they want to pay more

Maybe we could hold a lottery and spaces go to the highest bidder you know like happens on house sales with multiple offers.

[treeholm]

Yup, one year olds will pay double since they are really taking up two spots, so to speak. Could be a really good thing for providers after all... it's like any other business.. supply and demand rules the market. Where the demand is higher than supply, the prices go up (putting my business prof hat on and remembering when I used to teach marketing). How could I have missed this...

[treeholm]

I was just thinking of giving the spot to the first family who renews at the 2014 price, and letting everyone know that first families get the spots, the others will have to be let go. Or, wouldn't a bidding war be fun! Joking aside, it is a disaster for most families who scrape by paying daycare... I'm not really that callous... just trying to add some comic relief...

[Wonderwiper]

The main problem is that no one knows about these changes except us!!! The news does a two minute clip saying there are changes on the way to protect our children. That's all parent hear. Unless you are in a rare area where there are only a few daycares, I'm sorry to say that doubling your rates will just make most parents look elsewhere. There are hundreds of providers advertising in the GTA right now.

Contact the media and your MPs if you want anyone to hear you.

[treeholm]

Wonderwiper, I'm in an area where there is already a shortage of spots, so local providers here can easily raise their rates. Maybe not double them, but at least make up a good portion of lost income. It is just dawning on me that this is going to be a larger problem for parents than providers. And while I'm not happy about that, it does bode well in terms of parents complaining about the legislation. So far the media has been portraying it as a positive thing... but that will change when parents are informed of the possible doubling of rates for spots for one year olds. That should motivate parents to protest now.

[crafty]

Would anyone minde taking look at my letter ?? English is not first language but I would prefer sending it in English so other people can use it. ???

[treeholm]

I'm a communications professor. PM it to me.

[torontokids]

I was just thinking it would be beneficial to email/contact other providers on Kijiji and daycare bear (tons of providers never bother with the forum) with a quick blurb about what is happening. Just something copy and pasted with contact info for MPPs etc.

[torontokids]

We need speakers corner back!

[cfred]

My friend told me that if she didn't think I'd be targeted, she'd recommend that I contact the media myself and invite them to my daycare. What if everyone started doing that? Hmmmmm.....actually show parents what a daycare can look like. Unfortunately, I'm having facial surgery next week that's going to leave me hiding in the bell tower for a couple weeks. Still....I thought it was a good idea.

[Fun&care]

I've changed my status on FB addressing all of this and already had one mom say her daycare will shut down if it passes. Those of you with a Facebook account make good use of it to spread the word!

[crafty]

I'm a communications professor. PM it to me.

I JUST DID ! Thank you Treeholm !

[cfred]

I have already Fun & Care. Even my Mum is spreading the word. She's been reading up and I'm filling in the blanks. Bless her :) Awesome New Guy has listened to 2 solid days of my ranting. Tonight, no rants. Just a big glass of wine and some emails to politicians.

I think most parents won't do much on our behalf until it affects them. Human nature.

[kimg]

I have written a letter to each of the people in this list (provided by the CCPRN). I have also told my dc parents what is happening and asked them to write letters as well detailing how this will affect them personally.

Please send your stories to:

lsandals.mpp@liberal .ola.org Hon Liz Sandals (Minister of Education)

bbalkissoon.mpp@libe ral.ola.org Bas Balkissoon (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Education)

Jim.Grieve@ontario.c a Jim Grieve (Assistant Deputy Minister, Early Learning Division, Ministry of Education)

rob.leone@pc.ola.org Rob Leone (Conservative Opposition/Education Critic)

tabunsp-qp@ndp.on.ca Peter Tabuns (NDP Opposition/Education Critic)

Done. I also sent the same email to all of the NDP MPPs.

[treeholm]

New facebook group:
Ontario Families & Home Childcare Providers Against Bill 143

https://www.facebook.com/groups/288234071301579/

[torontokids]

Sent this to the Globe

To Whom it May Concern,

I am an unlicensed provider and run a successful home daycare in Toronto's west end. I have a Master's degree in Social Work with a specialization in children's mental health and child development. I opened a home daycare to be able to afford the luxury and privilege of staying home with my two young girls. This was a choice I made because I want to be with my girls but also a necessity because the cost of sending two children to daycare would leave nothing from my pay once daycare fees were paid.

Why isn’t the media covering the fact that if this new Bill gets introduced there will be very few infant daycare spaces available? We already have a shortage but some balance was created by unlicensed providers who could take more than 2 infants under the current rules. With new ratio rules for providers we can only care for 2 children under 2 yrs old which includes our own children. The majority of us will either shut down (we can’t make a living with only 2-3 children in our care) or increase our rates to account for the loss in income. Parents are being blinded to the whole story and are only being told how this Bill will “keep kids safe.” No one seems to be aware that their child’s spot at daycare may cease to exist once this is passed (I will have to terminate services for 2-3 kids depending on how the Bill is structured).

I am unlicensed by choice and I encourage my families to visit licensed providers supervised by Wee Watch etc before signing with me. Just because someone is with an agency, this does not mean their services/program is better. Families sign with me because they see what else is out there. I looked into licensed home daycare options when I went back to work after my first mat leave and my options were bleak at best. One provider had a climbing structure in some man’s apartment above hers where she brought the kids to play. When I called the agency they were not aware of this. Well what else don’t they know about? Another provider spoke little English and had no programming aside from a basket of toys on the floor. The last licensed daycare I visited had “Dora” on the TV and one child just screaming in an exersaucer. The provider didn’t pick him up or even acknowledge him. I was so uncomfortable I took my daughter and left. Licensing does not mean better!


With the proposed changes, it will make things very difficult to continue to stay home with my girls and keep my business viable. This Bill is intended to ensure there are no additional tragedies like we have seen. These "babysitters" that warehouse children should not be put in the same category as me or many other providers. I run a TV free, highly structured program with tons of experiential learning and outdoor time. My clients often choose me because of the large amount of time we spend outdoors (4+ hours in the summer, 2-3 in the winter. I am open to becoming licensed as I think accountability and inspections are important. I do not however want to become licensed through an agency. I do not need their support in finding clients, or to borrow their resources. I have independent insurance; I am CPR certified and have a current clean police check. I have tons of experience and education. I am not however interested in giving them a chunk of my daily fees. I would be open to a yearly licensing fee similar to what one pays a professional college (e.g. College of Social Workers) to cover inspections etc.

[giraffe]

Sent this to the Globe

To Whom it May Concern,

I am an unlicensed provider and run a successful home daycare in Toronto's west end. I have a Master's degree in Social Work with a specialization in children's mental health and child development. I opened a home daycare to be able to afford the luxury and privilege of staying home with my two young girls. This was a choice I made because I want to be with my girls but also a necessity because the cost of sending two children to daycare would leave nothing from my pay once daycare fees were paid.

Why isn’t the media covering the fact that if this new Bill gets introduced there will be very few infant daycare spaces available? We already have a shortage but some balance was created by unlicensed providers who could take more than 2 infants under the current rules. With new ratio rules for providers we can only care for 2 children under 2 yrs old which includes our own children. The majority of us will either shut down (we can’t make a living with only 2-3 children in our care) or increase our rates to account for the loss in income. Parents are being blinded to the whole story and are only being told how this Bill will “keep kids safe.” No one seems to be aware that their child’s spot at daycare may cease to exist once this is passed (I will have to terminate services for 2-3 kids depending on how the Bill is structured).

I am unlicensed by choice and I encourage my families to visit licensed providers supervised by Wee Watch etc before signing with me. Just because someone is with an agency, this does not mean their services/program is better. Families sign with me because they see what else is out there. I looked into licensed home daycare options when I went back to work after my first mat leave and my options were bleak at best. One provider had a climbing structure in some man’s apartment above hers where she brought the kids to play. When I called the agency they were not aware of this. Well what else don’t they know about? Another provider spoke little English and had no programming aside from a basket of toys on the floor. The last licensed daycare I visited had “Dora” on the TV and one child just screaming in an exersaucer. The provider didn’t pick him up or even acknowledge him. I was so uncomfortable I took my daughter and left. Licensing does not mean better!


With the proposed changes, it will make things very difficult to continue to stay home with my girls and keep my business viable. This Bill is intended to ensure there are no additional tragedies like we have seen. These "babysitters" that warehouse children should not be put in the same category as me or many other providers. I run a TV free, highly structured program with tons of experiential learning and outdoor time. My clients often choose me because of the large amount of time we spend outdoors (4+ hours in the summer, 2-3 in the winter. I am open to becoming licensed as I think accountability and inspections are important. I do not however want to become licensed through an agency. I do not need their support in finding clients, or to borrow their resources. I have independent insurance; I am CPR certified and have a current clean police check. I have tons of experience and education. I am not however interested in giving them a chunk of my daily fees. I would be open to a yearly licensing fee similar to what one pays a professional college (e.g. College of Social Workers) to cover inspections etc.
Love love!! You should send it everywhere

[torontokids]

I was also thinking about alerting parents on my waitlist so they know there may not be care for their infant in a yr

[momofnerds]

you know why they want to keep this hush hush, so that people don't rally against the bill. the more people that find out the more uproar there is going to be.

[Jilly]

Hello Everyone!

I have read quite a few posts on here on this subject. Frankly, like the rest of you, this has me worried for my family and many other families! It's like a big snow ball affect, if what I'm reading is accurate? We the daycare providers will have to raise our rates considerably, in order to have only three children in our care (with the three under three ratio) and the 4 and 5 year olds in KG. Then the families in turn, will no longer be able to afford daycare?!
I read a few months back that there is very limited daycare spots in Canada as is, now they are going to implement regulations that will only allow private unlicensed daycares really only three children?! Then if again I am correct, those stay at home Mums that have children at home, have to count their own children? I'm sorry, but it's not going to work for many reasons. As most of you already know and realize, most us then will have to shut down due to not making a reasonable living, and a lot of parents will be without daycare and therefore loose their jobs?!
Why change something when it has always worked? Yes, we have few people who should never work with children and therefore should be shut down.....but like with anything else in life, you have your few bad ones...so having said that, the ministry should be able to and do come and make surprise visits, I know I had one. Therefore they should just hire more inspectors and make sure ALL day cares run well. THAT is the only answer, as I see it.
The onus was on the ministry to close that horrible unfit day care down, and they did not, when apparently they were called a few times?! Now our livelihoods have to suffer for their lack of due diligence?! It seems to me that the government is not seriously considering all the facts?! I believe we the day care providers and all the daycare parents should get actively involved in this too, to make them aware of ALL the ramifications, and if we do, and they consider everything and we ALL work together, everyone will win, especially the children who we care for! Let's stop worrying and find out what we can do, and get our day care parents involved too!
One thing I would like to mention, I saw this coming a while ago and I have spoke about how the government will try to have their hands in our pies so to speak, meaning they will likely try to make money off of us, the lil guys, let's not let that happen! Let's get involved and make a plan to get involved! The first thing any of us should be concerned about is the safety of our children that we care for, and as I have mentioned, the only solution as I see that will work is to hire more inspectors! Secondly, not to make day care more difficult for parents and for us, the well meaning day care providers who are also trying to make a living! If anyone has any ideas how we can get actively get involved, please let us know.