Advice needed regarding probation/term letter Re: child's behaviour

[MonkeyPrincess]

Can i get some input on a letter i want to write to the DCparents regarding their child's behaviour? I want to put the child on Probation. I have a one week notice term policy. My question is- Do i give her x amount of time on probation (say 4 wks) and if i don't see any improvement, then i give her the one week notice? Or do i say in the letter that if i don't see any improvement, then her end date is at the end of the 4 wks? Should i give more time on probation or is that sufficient enough?

Here's the scenario-

I am tired of having issues with the child's behaviour, she is 3.5 yrs old. It's issues with misbehaving, (ie not tidying up, pulling out all the movies off the shelves, climbing on furniture and removing all the couch cushions, not doing as i ask, getting up from bed/keeping other kids awake, getting up from the table repeatedly). It's issues with potty training (parents said she was potty trained when she started but has never had a clean, dry day here. About a month in i demanded she be in pull ups ( this is the kid who peed the bed and pooped on my carpet) and despite how hard i have tried in the last 6 months, she still pees/poos in pull up everyday. Now she is retaliating against potty training all together, she wont go in potty but 5 min later will pee/poo in pull up- last week i told her to go to the potty while i put the little ones in the high chairs, she pulled down her pants and peed ON HER PANTS- time outs are now being given for pees and poos in pull ups because she is old enough to know better and this proves she is retaliating). I have tried everything i can think of. Just speaking to her used to work, now it doesn't. Time outs used to work, now they only work sometimes. The child's behavior is getting worse and honestly i am fed up. If you recall this is the child that hit my kid in the face with a toy computer when she didn't get her way, she has bitten and hit too. It's also issues with mistreatment of stuff. Today, i only had her and my daughter. when i was in the washroom, she ripped a book (5 pages!) and ripped the head off my daughter's, that she just got for Christmas. I was livid- out for time out!!!. The parents will most certainly be paying to replace!!!

DCmom does all pick up and drop offs, don't see dad much at all. When dad picks her up, they are in and out in less than 5 min. DCmom is not authoritative. She does not take control when picking up her child. DCgirl will run around evading her mom, go in my dining room next to the front door (:no: not allowed) until i pick her up to take her back to the door. She will play 'broken baby' and wiggle out of my or her mom's arms. I have actually taken her out of her mom's arms, set her on the floor and gotten her dressed myself while she has been acting out because mom won't take action. Remember this was the kid who pulled that crap one day and I said i was going to put her on a time out if she didn't behave. instead of taking action, mom said she didn't have time and told the kid to hurry up because they were going to be late for her sister's ballet. :mad: No, i told the mom that when the kids continue to misbehave after being spoken to, they get a time out. Sorry if you are in a hurry, but i take the time to teach them right from wrong.

These are all issues that we have spoken about many times over and i have seen no improvement. (this is the mom who continues to park where i have asked her NOT to) I want to touch on all that in my letter, plus i want to include pictures of the damages items. Any help you can offer me on how to write the letter and what to put in it is much appreciated.

[mickyc]

Honestly, it is past probation I think! I would be sending a termination letter. Too many issues IMO and obviously mom doesn't get it. I doubt it will change.

[Lee-Bee]

With all you've listed and the age of the child I would only do a probation period if you really think the parents will kick it into high gear to fix things. If that isn't likely then give term notice.

If you do probation I would likely not do 4weeks. If everyone wants to see change happen it will be evident in 2 weeks...then give a second probation for 2 more weeks to continue progress. Stating that some but not enough progress is seen therefore probation will be extended.

[Fun&care]

Sounds like it might be time to term. However I don't think putting pictures in your letter is a good idea. Actually the way I see it, and I know some disagree, is that if a child breaks things under your care than it was your fault. I don't think making the parent pay is fair because after all they were not there to prevent it and after all, you left her unsupervised. I think it deserves punishment of some kind for the child, but not necessarily for the parents. In terms of a letter, I would stick to the facts, keep it simple and keep your anger about this whole thing OUT of the letter. Remember you are not ASKING them to go on probation or to be terminating them, you are TELLING them. When you are telling/ demanding there is less reason to go into detail and get dramatic about things.

[nschildcare]

I wrote a probation letter and only gave a one week length of probation, to be extended if I saw improvement of behaviour over that period. This kid needed constant monitoring and while I was prepared to extend if I saw improvement, I definitely did not want to keep him here longer than a week if there wasn't, it was that taxing on me and having a definite impact on my group.

I also left myself an out to be done immediately, in case of escalating or worsening behaviour. It was along the lines of: If, during one day, more than 5 time outs are needed, you will be called to pick up immediately. One instance of aggression was immediate pick up. If there are 3 pick ups during this probation period, termination of services will be effective immediately. Or whatever you feel is proper and are comfortable with.

I started off by saying that, due to x, y and z, Sally was being put on probation. This means that: and put whatever it means to you. Then, if behaviour is improving, this probation period may be extended by one week. Otherwise, notice will be given and care will be done on (insert date). Then, clauses for immediate termination of contract.

I kept it very short and to the point. I didn't put specifics in, just very basic language straight from our contract. For example, on probation due to: continued discipline issues despite provider and parent cooperation, continued aggressive acts towards other daycare children, etc, etc. Also, I added, "As per our contract, these are cause for immediate termination of services, however...." and then whatever your terms of probation are going to be.

Good luck!

[torontokids]

I agree, 2 weeks notice to see improvement or they will be terminated. Be careful not to keep extending it if you see some small changes as I got into this with one family and then when I reevaluated it was clear things were not working and they came back with "but there has been some improvement" they had a hard time hearing "there hadn't been enough change to stay on."

[bright sparks]

I think I would also be inclined at this stage with all your best efforts to terminate. There isn't just one issue here for you to deal with. If not, then I would be inclined to give only 2 weeks notice not 4 for probation and at the end of the two weeks if you see no improvement in the childs behaviour then her spot will be terminated. This 2 weeks probation will be her notice period so no, I wouldn't give an additional 1 week after that.

There was another post last week addressing a child who was much younger, 22mths I think, who was physical with the other children. I would take a similar approach and even though this child is 3.5, I would strap them in a highchair in an area away from the kids but where you can still see her. Another option would be to separate a portion of the room off and tell her that if she can not play appropriately then she plays in that space alone until she learns. Every single time there is an incident she goes in there. Not quite like a time out with 1 minute for every year, but an extended period of time to teach her that this is how she will spend her DAY if she does not play appropriately. When the other children are in your living area she gets strapped in a highchair and told that she can not be trusted to not pull things apart so she has to stay there until she earns your trust back. She will soon learn. The same at pick up time. Explain to her just before pick up today that if she is defiant and runs all over the place and misbehaves then tomorrow you will dress her and put her in a highchair to wait for mum. If her mum doesn't like this then ask her what she suggests they do instead to change things as you have brought it up with her before and she hasn't followed through on any of your requests and without consequences her child has no incentive to behave.

As for potty training, surely at her age she should have some regularity with her BM's by now?? I know this isn't 100% for any child but generally speaking you know when a child is going to poop. I think once you have the behaviour under control then the toilet training will no longer be as big an issue. She will likely be more cooperative and be more responsive to positive reinforcement.

My whole perspective on potty training differs from most on here so this is just my opinion, but the pull up being on this child for an extended period of time is also part of the problem I think. It is a diaper, she knows it is a diaper, and she knows she can pee and poop in it. Either put her in underwear except for naptimes, which I'm thinking isn't an option if she is peeing and pooping all over the place all the time, or put her back in real diapers and stop training her. Do one thing at a time and take the focus off the fact that she is not trained and all her accidents, or purposeful doodling in her pants.

[MonkeyPrincess]

I had originally put 2 weeks, with end date of next Friday.

[MonkeyPrincess]

Sounds like it might be time to term. However I don't think putting pictures in your letter is a good idea. Actually the way I see it, and I know some disagree, is that if a child breaks things under your care than it was your fault. I don't think making the parent pay is fair because after all they were not there to prevent it and after all, you left her unsupervised. I think it deserves punishment of some kind for the child, but not necessarily for the parents. In terms of a letter, I would stick to the facts, keep it simple and keep your anger about this whole thing OUT of the letter. Remember you are not ASKING them to go on probation or to be terminating them, you are TELLING them. When you are telling/ demanding there is less reason to go into detail and get dramatic about things.

I understand that, and i agree with you to a certain degree, but in my case, i was in the washroom. It's not like i was gone for half an hour. it was 10 min! (unfortunately sometimes it takes me a little longer to go). I have a policy in my contract that states that if anything gets damaged or broken by a DCchild, the parents have to pay for it. It wasn't a DC toy it was my daughter's doll.

[mickyc]

my thoughts are that if you put her on probation you will end up filling the spot eventually. Parents who let their children behave this way don't get it! She will take it as a personal attack and blame you for it. I would just give notice and be done.

[Judy Trickett]

If you put her on probation my experience tells me the parents will go and find alternate care. I mean, really, it's not like they don't kNOW she is like this. And the fact that they are aware of her behaviour but not addressing it says that they don't see it as a problem. So your putting her on probation is just going to tick them off and make them defensive. They WILL leave if you put her on probation. But, hey, would that be so bad?

Personally, I think you have put up with enough for long enough a period of time. It's time to just let her go.

[Fun&care]

I understand that, and i agree with you to a certain degree, but in my case, i was in the washroom. It's not like i was gone for half an hour. it was 10 min! (unfortunately sometimes it takes me a little longer to go). I have a policy in my contract that states that if anything gets damaged or broken by a DCchild, the parents have to pay for it. It wasn't a DC toy it was my daughter's doll.

I understand that being the only caregivers in a household we sometimes have to leave the kids unattended to go to the washroom etc. however if you knew this girl had a tendency to break things you should have brought her with you and gotten her to stay just outside the door or strap her in a high chair. Now this child has other issues obviously so you have reason to be frustrated but in this case I just don't think it's fair to make the parents pay.

And as for potty training, punishment is NOT going to work. Potty training kids need encouragement, praise, positive reinforcement but punishment will always make things worse. I also agree that a pull-up is a diaper and kids can't tell the difference. I would try underwear, she is old enough.

[bright sparks]

I put a family on probation about 5 weeks ago and they DID NOT find alternative care. It was enough for them to get their act together and I am glad I didn't just terminate. I think most parents will seek out alternative care because they HAVE to if their spot is threatened to be over in 2 weeks not because they are pissed off at the provider. Also probably the majority will still get annoyed with you and leave for sure but I don't like to paint everyone with the same brush.

Its funny to see the difference in responses to this child than the one last week who was physically harming another child on a regular basis for 6 months. I understand that they are two separate situations and the age difference changes things, but regardless of age neither child is okay behaving this way for 6 months old and in both cases the dcprovider had tried multiple methods of discipline and both sets of parents were not 100% committed to being on board but literally everyone on this post is all for termination, and I was the one who thought the other child should have been terminated and everyone else came up with strategies to help modify behaviour....hope you are following me haha LOL not criticizing anyones opinion for either case, but funny to see how people opinions can be so different when I think they are both very similar situations. How many people said they wouldn't want to pass the problem on to someone else to fix??

[MonkeyPrincess]

I understand that being the only caregivers in a household we sometimes have to leave the kids unattended to go to the washroom etc. however if you knew this girl had a tendency to break things you should have brought her with you and gotten her to stay just outside the door or strap her in a high chair. Now this child has other issues obviously so you have reason to be frustrated but in this case I just don't think it's fair to make the parents pay.

And as for potty training, punishment is NOT going to work. Potty training kids need encouragement, praise, positive reinforcement but punishment will always make things worse. I also agree that a pull-up is a diaper and kids can't tell the difference. I would try underwear, she is old enough.

I say this respectfully, but I am not sure that i agree with that. I understand your thought process, i really do, but it's not something that i normally do.

In regards to the pull up, i agree, i believe the kids thinks it's like a diaper, but the kid can't stay dry in underwear or a pull up. We have tired the underwear only route and it has ended in my wet carpets, floor clean up 4x a day. Mind you that was 4 months ago, so i am sure she can try again, but the parents are helping. I have suggested that they take time off to stay home and potty train her and the mom said they can't because they are going on vacation in march and she is taking time off this summer for knee surgery. They aren't interested. They want me to do all the potty training. Thats not how i roll. I only help once the parents have taken it seriously and the child shows progression.

[5 Little Monkeys]

For me, age is the difference. Young children need to be taught how to play etc.

This is what I have in my contract for behaviour management....I believe in taking positive steps in managing and guiding children's behaviours. I do this through well defined limits according to the child's age and capabilities. In an instance where your child's behaviour is inappropriate, I will redirect and refocus. If this does not work I will have the child have a "time away". It is not a time out where they are allowed to do nothing rather it is a time for the child to have some alone time(usually with a book or puzzle) and be allowed the opportunity to de-escalate and calm down. If this still does not work, than a time out with no toys will be used as a last resort. If your child's behaviour becomes a problem, I will speak to you and together we will find a solution that works for your child, you and myself. If the behaviour becomes too out of control and is a safety to the other children or myself, I may ask that you find alternate care.

I would let the parents know EVERY day what kind of behaviour I saw and what discipline I had to take. I would talk to the parents and come up with a plan of action and ask that we both follow it so the child has consistent discipline for the bad behaviour. If after all that there was no sign of improvement than I would consider termination. For me, it really is case by case and I don't have a "cookie cutter" approach as each child (and parents!!) are different.

[Secondtimearound]

Personally I think your done !! Having a 3.5 yr old pee on the floor would be a lot to deal with !!! The time spent cleaning ect !! I agree with the pull up !
I am right now lavishing a ton of praise and stickers on a potty trainer , I would suggest ignoring her and her potty training issue altogether ! But it's not just the potty issues , if she is causing that much disruption to your dayhome , I would say term immediately !
I persevered for 6.5 months with a similar situation and the first morning dck was gone my group and I were a lot happier ! Dck was occupying so much of my time with neg attention I didn't even notice ! Once dck was gone ?? I could focus on all the dcks !!!
Speaking from experience I was so much happier !!!

[Crayola kiddies]

If your going to be in the bathroom for more then 2-3 mins then you absolutely should put her I. A chair and strap her in or bring her with you .... What if she climbed up on something and fell off or jumped off and landed on another child or what if she purposely hurt another child? There are all kinds of scenarios that could happen while you are in the bathroom for an extended period of time .... You should be protecting the other children and yourself from accidents as you are liable if she hurts her self or another child while in your care.
As for potty training I always use plastic pants over thick underwear to protect my furninshings and at this age .... Yes I absolutely agree with a punishment for soiling themselves .... At his age she knows the difference and she is making a choice not to use the potty... Is it available to her to just use all on her own or does she have to ask you? I have two potties right outside my bathroom and I have three kids that use the potties ( two I put on and one goes on her own) and I have one that uses the toilet. If you don't have something that she can just use independently then maybe that's what you/she needs ..... However I think this family needs their walking papers and I would not ask them to pay for the doll .... If it was not a daycare toy then it should not be out during day care hours... But I might be inclined to mention it to the parents. Good luck