How would you handle this?

[nschildcare]

So I have a family that has been here for 1.5 years. Dcg is 2.5.

Dcg has (in the past three weeks) become increasingly disruptive at naptime. Won't settle or lay quietly. When I remove her from nap room (to be separate from others) she shrieks. Non stop. This doesn't happen every day, maybe once a week.

Dcg is increasingly defiant and talks back to me. This I can handle.

I chatted with mom (after much written communication about my expectations) and told her that if the disruptive naptimes continue, she will be called to pick up this child.

Fine. Moving forward.

Mom lets me know that dcg won't be here on Monday, ill. Shows up Tuesday looking awful. I checked for temp, hovering just under 100. 30 minutes later she still has not engaged in any play or communication. Check temp. Down 2 degrees. Then 5 minutes later, diarrhea. Call for pick up. Let mom know she can return on Thursday as long as all symptoms are gone for 24 hours.

Mom emails me later that day to ask for a copy of my illness policy for work. Fine. Send her copy.

Background on behaviour: I added 2 new kids and her behaviour escalated after that so I think (hope) it will quieten down with time. Naptime disruption IS a deal breaker for me.

I have no proof that mom doped and dropped, yet it would seem that way. This is the second time I *think* this has happened. And mom had to know this kid was sick. My kids even commented that she didn't look good.

My sickness policy is: well kid care. Must be able to participate. No meds AT ALL. 24 hour symptom free before return. No stomach issues. Dope and drop is immediate termination.

Wwyd?

For naps:
-I am calling if she does not calm (from shrieking) within 10 minutes. Mom will need to pick up immediately. How many times (or pick ups) do I tolerate before letting mom know that her child has outgrown my program (and required rest period).

I would like to do a number of things wrt bringing sick child:
-tell mom that due to knowingly bringing her child sick and suspected medicating, that she is termed OR
-tell mom that I will no longer tolerate her sneakiness and next time she is gone

There just seems to be a whole bunch of issues at once. As background, dcg is here 55 hours/week, whether mom works or not. I mention this because any kid who has had behaviour issues has been here lengthy hours, spending minimal time with parents. (just my experience) I'm not as concerned about her defiance, as I am confident in my dealing with them and hope that she'll phase out of this soon. I am most concerned about naptime disruptions.

I am pissed about trying to pawn off a sick kid onto me. Honestly, I have my own kids, I spend countless hours a week with your kids, I think I know when she is sick. :mad:

[mickyc]

As far as a child coming to daycare sick I think all you can really do is give it a short amount of time and then send her home once you see issues. It is so hard to say if parents really are being sneaky or are really that disconnected from their child (or don't really care). If you call her enough times she will get the hint that it is just more convenient to stay home to begin with.

As for the napping - yes that is a big thing for me too! Try a different punishment for the child. For myself I will give a child a different snack in the afternoon for bad behaviour. So while the rest are enjoying cookies and milk that child gets vegies or a rice cake. I think that by calling mom you are telling her you cannot deal with her child's behaviour.

[bright sparks]

I wouldn't ask a parent to pick up because a child is being disruptive at naptime. I would separate them from the start and if they wake screaming or crying, I would check that there was nothing wrong and then leave them to cry it out. I understand it is disruptive, but it is part of our job in my opinion to deal with the ups and downs in the children's development and some of those will simply be caused by a phase of defiance. How does it help the child get over this if they are picked up? You are almost certainly going to make the mother find another provider as she would lose her job if she was called out on a regular basis for this. I am not downplaying the importance of naptime for the other children and for you, not at all, but this should simply be a case of a couple of weeks of being separate and out of the way of the other group and hopefully you too and if they cry for the entire time, then so be it. I believe as a result this behaviour will stop.

I'm glad to read in your post that you aren't questioning your methods or ability to manage the behaviour when the child is up. That was so good to read because even the most confident of daycare provider can second guess themselves sometimes.

As for the masking illness, this is something I have in my contract also as grounds for immediate termination forfeiting their deposit too. It is extremely hard to prove even though as you described it is so obvious and clear when it has been done. I have termed once for this but the parents had given me loads of additional issues to so there were no repercussion but you only need that one family to take action against you afterward and you are screwed because although it seems obvious what happened, you have absolutely zero proof that it did occur.

[Crayola kiddies]

By calling the parent to pick up when the child is disruptive is not a punishment for the child ..... It's exactly what they want ... To go home ..... This will not get better but it will make the mom find a new care provider

[5 Little Monkeys]

I would deal with the child's behaviour as I see fit. She's getting older and will be testing her boundaries, which is to be expected.

I would not call for a child to be picked up unless their behaviour is so completely out of control that I cannot keep the other kids safe. I understand the frustrations that occur when naptime is disrupted but I believe it comes with the job. I started my hdc with the understanding that I wouldn't have set breaks. I also think parents would question my ability to care for children if I was calling for children to be picked up. I separate the child that is being disruptive and when they are back to being a "good" napper they are re-introduced to the nap room. This has been anywhere from a week to a couple of months.

I have never suspected "doping and dropping" so I'm not sure what I would do. I have a pretty thorough and strict sick policy so I would likely just remind them of this and if at any time of the day I thought the child needed to go home I would call for pick up.

Decide what and how you want to deal with this and than stick to it. Good luck!

[nschildcare]

Here is my nap situation in greater detail. I would love for some input on how to deal with this.

Dcg is 2.5. I have tried moving my group together and out of pack n plays at three different points in time since September. She is always the one who gets everyone going and has a hard time settling. Needs at least an extra 30 minutes to relax and fall asleep. The issue with keeping her separate is that she is a big girl, and in the pack and play will run around in it, kick her legs up and down. Generally make as much noise as possible.

I usually ignore (one warning, then ignore) as the more I go in, the more she feeds off of this.

I recently got cots (2 months ago). We really talked up having naps in the 'big kid' bed, staying quiet, etc and that if she wasn't able to lie quietly would have to go upstairs again. Some days are good, some are not. When I have to move her upstairs, she will either cry and then fall asleep right away or else scream, run and kick and make as much noise as possible. If I ignore, she will get louder. I told her mom that she would have to pick her up after she shrieked for 45 minutes straight.

I don't care if she doesn't sleep. But she does need rest. She is not a kid who does well without sleep. The issue is that she won't be quiet. And when I try to enforce it, her behaviour worsens. I understand that mom may find another provider. If I can't find something that works for this kid, I won't care as I will probably term her by the time that point comes.

This is a (usually) sweet kid who is shuffled around by the parents to different sitters. She spends all week here (every.single.day) while mom and dad are either working or off having a day together, and then spends most weekends with a grandparent. This kid is starving for consistency. She is not getting any consistent routine on the weekend and I've seen her at the grocery store at 10 in the evening on a weeknight. Monday, Tuesday and half of Wednesday she is very defiant. Come Thursday and Friday she has calmed down. Then the weekend comes and we start all over again.

Parents think she has outgrown the need for a nap. They do not enforce a rest period. "She didn't want to stay in bed." "We turned the tv on for her and thought she would fall asleep." If she doesn't nap, she will be falling over herself by mid afternoon. When she does nap, she sleeps for almost 3 hours and I often have to wake her up.

I am really at a loss of what else to do.

However, I am hoping that it is the introduction of new children that is throwing her off her game. She is def. my alpha two y.o. Her not being able to be in the same room is not new but her shrieking at me def. is.

As for the whole sick thing.... grrr!

[nschildcare]

I started my hdc with the understanding that I wouldn't have set breaks.

I think we will have to agree to disagree about breaks :)

[nschildcare]

I also think parents would question my ability to care for children if I was calling for children to be picked up.



I question whether parents are parenting their child when a child is not responsive to my directions and discipline on a continuous basis. I really struggle with this aspect of the business. Not necessarily this situation, but just in general.

I can't do my job if parents haven't done theirs.

[Judy Trickett]

I think we will have to agree to disagree about breaks :)

Yeah, I am with you, nschildcare. It is unreasonable for any provider to not think they deserve a break during the day. No one can go, years and years in any job working 9 or 10 hour straight without a break.

But, as much as the naptime thing would make me want to terminate I have to say that I think by calling for a pick-up the kid sees it as getting rewarded. I mean, hell, she screams and then gets to go home! Maybe we should try that...we scream and all the kids get picked up and we can end our day at 2pm! ;

I think I would just let her scream. Yep, it WILL wake the other kids and over the course of one week it will be pure hell, but I would let her scream and show her it.....will....not.. ..work. and that she is NOT going home if she doesn't settle to nap. And if I tried that for two weeks and she STILL was a problem then, yep, I would terminate in a heartbeat.

Sorry this is happening because it royally SUCKS to not get your naptime break. I feel for you. We have a nine hour day and we are "on" for so much of it. We deserve an hour or so to tidy up, eat our own lunch and just BREATHE for a few minutes. So it would REALLY bother me to not get a naptime break and I couldn't handle that for very long. so, yeah, I feel for you!

I think that any worker deserves a break - heck, that's why there are employment laws dictating breaks! But I think that when it comes to caring for kids it is even MORE important that the provider be able to regroup and rest and be her BEST. There is a lot more at stake here than a lot of other jobs.

[Judy Trickett]

I question whether parents are parenting their child when a child is not responsive to my directions and discipline on a continuous basis. I really struggle with this aspect of the business. Not necessarily this situation, but just in general.

I can't do my job if parents haven't done theirs.

Also agree here! In my experience the least behaved kids in care are also the kids whose parents do not have any behaviour expectations for them. The worst behaved kids typically have parents who coddle them to death and never discipline them. And it's because that kid does not have the understanding of boundaries of behaviour because they have not been taught that.

[bright sparks]

I question whether parents are parenting their child when a child is not responsive to my directions and discipline on a continuous basis. I really struggle with this aspect of the business. Not necessarily this situation, but just in general.

I can't do my job if parents haven't done theirs.

I also struggle with this. It literally makes me want to bang my head against a wall sometime. DRIVES.ME.CRAZY.

We put so much time and effort into these children for parents to undo all our hardwork by not doing their job of parenting by disciplining and teaching their children. I have a dcb who is super naughty for his mum. I cared for his older sister before she went to kindergarten this past September and on the rare occasion mum picks her up from b&a care at school prior to collecting dcb, there is always some kind of physical fight at pick up. I discipline the boy while he is in my house as those are my rules but I have to fight with every ounce of energy not to overstep the boundary with her daughter. I want to give her a good bollocking and telling off when she just outright punches her brother in the face. I had her for over 3 years and she was a saint, very well behaved, and mum doesn't discipline either of them. This morning dcb comes with a bandage on his forehead after splitting his head open yesterday climbing and jumping off the sofa and I clearly confronted the issue with her that he will continue to do this unless there are some negative consequences for this bad behaviour because she went on to say that at breakfast he is jumping up and down on his chair. Jeez lady, discipline them for goodness sake, its in their best interest to teach them and as a result they will be better behaved and give you a break!!

[5 Little Monkeys]

I have no problem agreeing to disagree :) You asked wwyd and that is what I would do. We all have different personalities, priorities etc so of course all of our dc's will be ran differently. If disruptive napping is a deal breaker for you than that is fine. Fortunately, I have always had pretty good to excellent nappers so naptime isn't a problem for me. If I had a child who made naptime hell than I'm sure my view would change!

I also just introduced two girls to cots, ages 2 and 2.5. I did the same as you and talked about how they were big girls now and got to sleep in big girl beds. I told them that there was no getting off the cot and no talking to each other. They have done excellent! The 2.5 yo was a mover in her playpen but I have noticed that has decreased with the cot. I have a video baby monitor and walkie talkies in the room. If I see any of the kids being disruptive I talk to them via walkie talkie and they instantly settle down. I think not knowing where my voice is coming from is a huge factor in this!! LOL

I totally understand the frustrations that come with parents not doing their job. I recently had a 4 yo that had parents who were smart on paper and knew all the right things to say and do but NEVER carried through. We had totally different parenting techniques and I would be frustrated everyday with them and their daughter. It was something mickyc told me that helped.....think of it as divorced parents. What they do at home is something I can not change so all I need to concentrate on is my rules here at dc and deal with her behaviour here. I took a different view on the situation and approached things a bit differently than I had been and honestly, her behaviour did change. Still not the greatest but it definitely improved. I think it's always best if the dcp and parents are on the same page but it's not always the case and in this case I just had to let it go and not worry about how her parents dealt with her behaviour and just do what I thought was fair here.

[bright sparks]

I started my hdc with the understanding that I wouldn't have set breaks.

I think with a consistant schedule and routine that it is easy to have a set time for breaks everyday. Yes there will be times when a new starter is on a different schedule initially but I immediately transition them into my schedule so all the kids sleep at the same time. I don't force kids to nap, but it is quiet time so they still go in a playpen and must be quiet, sleeping or not. There will also be these types of occasions when a child becomes disruptive but that usually doesn't last and I am trained in the art of ignoring the crying. We all know the difference between a cry of "needing" vs attention seeking so if it is ever different of course I will see to the child, and I also still do my periodic sneaky checks throughout naptime for safety.

I am a stickler for routine, I always have been with my kids too. I am the adult here and will not allow a child to dictate what happens throughout my 10 hour day with them, because mom and dad let them rule the roost at home.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Just to clarify....obviously I think we all deserve a break. :) I just mean that some days our breaks will be longer than other days. Children aren't robots, they have off days and some days those affect our breaks. I also get breaks here and there during free play so it makes up for having a shorter naptime break sometimes.

I used to work in places that didn't give us coffee breaks but only 30 mins for lunch so I take any break or downtime in hdc as a bonus.

[bright sparks]

I have a video baby monitor and walkie talkies in the room. If I see any of the kids being disruptive I talk to them via walkie talkie and they instantly settle down. I think not knowing where my voice is coming from is a huge factor in this!! LOL

I love the walkie talkie idea....totally up my street :) I don't have baby monitors, never have and never will, even after last weeks poopy disaster haha

[5 Little Monkeys]

It was pretty hilarious watching them the first few times I had to speak to them. Now I only have to talk to them maybe once a week if that but it's still funny watching them look around to see where I am haha.

Just curious, why no monitors? Especially after the poopy disaster!! haha

[mickyc]

Thanks 5LM! LOL

Yes my take on things is while kids are in my care it is my rules. I don't care what the parents do at home. There are lots of things I shake my head about. I have kids who turn into complete lunatics when their parents show up. All that matters is that they behave with me during my time. I am strict with my kids from day 1. I do not let things slide and they know not to push their limits. I cannot control what goes on at their home so I don't bother trying. I have step children so I have learned this many years ago that there is no point, you can only control what happens in your house.

Be firm with the girl. If she is going to scream then make it unpleasant for her. Put her by herself, ignore it, enforce some sort of punishment for the behaviour afterwards. Find out what matters most to her and use that as your leverage. If you have exhausted all options then feel free to terminate. Just my 2 cents! LOL

[nschildcare]

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate everyone's input.

I think writing it out has helped clear it up for me. I do believe this 'extra' behaviour at naptimes is connected with the other defiance flare up. I was thinking of them as two separate issues but now, in reading back through this, I think that it is part and parcel with the new children starting.

I will give it a few weeks and see how it goes. Let her scream it out and actively ignore :)

[bright sparks]

It was pretty hilarious watching them the first few times I had to speak to them. Now I only have to talk to them maybe once a week if that but it's still funny watching them look around to see where I am haha.

Just curious, why no monitors? Especially after the poopy disaster!! haha

I never had baby monitors for my kids and I lived in a big Victorian house when they were babies and if they needed me, I would still always hear them. I don't want to be watching a monitor like a clock. If they wake up, move around, talk or play it is really not something I need to keep a close eye on in my opinion. If they are ill they will cry out and I will run up to them immediately. The pooping incident aside from my daughters event at 12 months old is the only daycare pooping incident I've ever encountered in the nearly 9 years so its an exception and not one that warrants spending dosh on video monitors. The little boy was silent so unless I was actively staring at the monitor then I wouldn't have noticed what he was doing, and they still wouldn't have helped. I don't want to spoil my breaks with being preoccupied with watching the monitor all the time. I check them all within the first 20-30 minutes to check they are settled and tuck them in if necessary, but after that I just check hourly and it is as quick and sneaky as cracking the door and peaking in. Kids manage all night long while we are asleep without us watching over them like a hawk. Just makes a lot of people over anxious about them...which is kind of ironic after my other post about being anxious about my own kids lol but that's a totally different scenario. I appreciate that these are not our children so we have to be extra cautious but after so many years without, I just don't think they would be overall that helpful for me. I know some mothers who have them and they are so neurotic and jump at every movement and end up being more disruptive to their child. So what, your child looks super uncomfortable sleeping in that position. Leave them alone to correct themselves independently and learn from their mistakes otherwise they will rely on you for everything as they grow up with a lack of abilities to sooth themselves.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Totally makes sense BS. My fiance is like that, he will ask "what was that" over every little noise they make. He is pretty anal though and takes things very seriously and worries about the kids hurting themselves here.

I use the monitor as another tool to help keep things safe but I definitely don't check it often. Once they are asleep I turn the volume down so I don't hear them turning and such. I will be totally honest, the biggest reason I wanted the monitor was because I'm lazy!!! LOL I didn't want to keep going down to check. I have a few kids who would make all this noise (banging their feet on the playpen) and it worried my fiance just in case it wasn't the feet on playpen. I'd be going down 3-4x a nap to reassure him that all was fine! I got a great deal on it down in the States ($90!) so it was our compromise! Now he knows that I was right as he can see it's just their feet LOL. I used to stay down in the dc all day but as the kids got older I started going upstairs more during nap time so it's worked out well. I totally get what you mean though!!

[torontokids]

I never used a monitor for my kids and I don't on the weekends and I find nap time so much more relaxing for me.

I did get a video monitor though because I found I would worry when I heard a noise that they were getting into something and this disrupted my break more then anything. I have a bunch of kids on cots so they are free to use the bathroom etc. I found the monitors great for training them to stay on their cots etc. The other bonus is I have my daycare self contained in the basement and I have been able to let my 3 yo sleep longer as I can just call up on the monitor to her to come down. Also, when she has been sick I have left her to watch a movie by herself and I can keep an eye on her as I can't hear a thing with the door closed.

[Secondtimearound]

I think 2.5 yrs is when most start transitioning off naps , that being said everyone under 4 naps here . I have a very consistent schedule , we nap 1-3 . I have had problem nappers too , just starts it seems out of the blue but then come to find out dcp stopped naps at home .
Just because I do not agree with dcp manner of raising their children , does not effect what happens at my dayhome . Some days can be difficult and trying to control nap time very hard on the nerves. Regardless , consistency and routine will pay off. I would def separate , but I certainly wouldn't call parent .
It took almost 2 months , 5 days a week to get a dcg , almost 3 back to quiet napping. It didn't bother me if she stayed awake but had to be quiet and stay on cot . This child was so strong willed !! I put her in the hall , nothing to do , no one to bug , put up a gate and other than laying her down ( without talking to her ) just kept at it .
Some days were better than others but eventually she was back on schedule . She arrived here at 6:30 am and by 1:00 really needed to sleep !
I feel for you , its so disrupting !! But you require a break !!

[daycaremom9]

Here is my nap situation in greater detail. I would love for some input on how to deal with this.

Dcg is 2.5. I have tried moving my group together and out of pack n plays at three different points in time since September. She is always the one who gets everyone going and has a hard time settling. Needs at least an extra 30 minutes to relax and fall asleep. The issue with keeping her separate is that she is a big girl, and in the pack and play will run around in it, kick her legs up and down. Generally make as much noise as possible.

I usually ignore (one warning, then ignore) as the more I go in, the more she feeds off of this.

I recently got cots (2 months ago). We really talked up having naps in the 'big kid' bed, staying quiet, etc and that if she wasn't able to lie quietly would have to go upstairs again. Some days are good, some are not. When I have to move her upstairs, she will either cry and then fall asleep right away or else scream, run and kick and make as much noise as possible. If I ignore, she will get louder. I told her mom that she would have to pick her up after she shrieked for 45 minutes straight.

I don't care if she doesn't sleep. But she does need rest. She is not a kid who does well without sleep. The issue is that she won't be quiet. And when I try to enforce it, her behaviour worsens. I understand that mom may find another provider. If I can't find something that works for this kid, I won't care as I will probably term her by the time that point comes.

This is a (usually) sweet kid who is shuffled around by the parents to different sitters. She spends all week here (every.single.day) while mom and dad are either working or off having a day together, and then spends most weekends with a grandparent. This kid is starving for consistency. She is not getting any consistent routine on the weekend and I've seen her at the grocery store at 10 in the evening on a weeknight. Monday, Tuesday and half of Wednesday she is very defiant. Come Thursday and Friday she has calmed down. Then the weekend comes and we start all over again.

Parents think she has outgrown the need for a nap. They do not enforce a rest period. "She didn't want to stay in bed." "We turned the tv on for her and thought she would fall asleep." If she doesn't nap, she will be falling over herself by mid afternoon. When she does nap, she sleeps for almost 3 hours and I often have to wake her up.

I am really at a loss of what else to do.

However, I am hoping that it is the introduction of new children that is throwing her off her game. She is def. my alpha two y.o. Her not being able to be in the same room is not new but her shrieking at me def. is.

As for the whole sick thing.... grrr!
I have 2 alpha males in training!lol One of them was testing me at nap time. He would also run around, throw his stuffies and/or books that I would let him have in hopes that he would keep quiet. These items just made it worse so I removed them from his napping area. He started jumping from couch to couch which I used as a partition from the other nappers. He is now in a separate room from the other nappers and will have special prized toys removed if he doesn't stay quiet and stay on his cot. The first day I changed his napping room, he fell asleep. It's nap time and I can hear him moving around but he's keeping fairly quiet and hasn't woken the others up yet.