Bragging = High Expectations

[ttremble88]

Afternoon all! So I have had a 3 year old girl start with me about a month and a half ago. She is part time anywhere between 2-4 days per week.

Anyhow, during the interview, the mother went on and on about how advanced she is. "She needed to buy new puzzles because the ones for her age are WAY to easy" "She speaks some Chinese, that she picked up from her old daycare" "She knows ??? different kinds of dinosaurs and their correct names" Ect, ect. I get it, parents love to brag, I do it as well.

Anyhow, for the most part, she is a quiet little girl and generally well behaved. She is OBSESSED with my cats. And the only time she really throws a tantrum is when I tell her to leave them alone. For example, today when she was holding one by the neck, in order to keep it with her so she could pet it. :blink:

But since she started here, I notice that most of the time she is completely spaced out and her understanding of questions being asked is very minimal. But I am not sure if my expectations for her were higher due to the mothers constant bragging.

Here are some examples:

Me: "DCG pick a chair at the table and sit down for lunch
DGC: *Goes to go sit on top of a 2 year old sitting in their boster
Me: "No, DCG. There is an empty chair right there. *point to chair that she currently has her hand on"
DCG: *Goes to open the patio door*
Me: "DCG what are you doing? Please get into your chair!"
DCG: "You want me to sit on the chair outside?"

Another:
Me: "DCG, what is your favorite color?"
DCG: "I like kitties"

When I ask questions, she often just stares at me blankly. And if she is doing something wrong and I tell her, she always nods her head and says "Ohhhhhhh"

It has come to the point that her daycare peers/friends often try to exclude her from their free play games as she just says random things, not in relation to what is going on. Of course, I explain to them that they need to include all daycare friends.

For the record, I have given her a wide variety of puzzles and she can not complete them. And we use the proper names for our dinos (as my boys have me trained well in that area), and she does not know which is which.

So I am not sure. Do I just have high expectations due to the mothers bragging? Is she just flat out playing games with me? What are your thoughts?

[bright sparks]

Interesting.....coul d be that she has been somewhat conditioned by her mother so when coaxed and encouraged to do something independently like the puzzles or names of dinos and in addition by someone other than her mother then she comes up short.

The spacing out is definitely something to watch and Id keep a record of it at her age and see if this becomes consistent and ongoing and if any patterns occur. Seems to me just from this little bit of info that she is disengaging. Hence the oblivious looks and responses and the inability to not be able to follow basic simple instructions. May very well just be away with the fairies but also could be a sign of Special Need/Giftedness. I am less concerned with the what is your favourite colour being a kitty lol A 3 year old probably didn't hear past favourite and if obsessed with your cats would instinctively reply with that. The fact that she can not follow simple instructions to sit on a chair is possibly indicative of special need.

I would be inclined to erase everything mom told you and start tomorrow off with zero expectation and see how she does. Download the Nipissing developmental milestone criteria sheets, or pm me your email address and I can email them to you and go through them with her. They are yes or no questions and may raise possible issues or confirm that all is okay. When you ask her to do something basic in future have a go at getting down to her level and try to get her to focus on you while you ask her the question. Have her mirror what you said by repeating back to you to confirm if she has either heard you or your request has got through to her working memory. I personally don't think she is playing you. It sounds like either away with fairies stuff or something on the spectrum. Observe, record and be patient to see how this plays out....

[ttremble88]

Thanks bright sparks. The last few days, I have decided that I was going to ignore everything that the mother told me (sounds horrible, I know...lol) and treat her as a child that I am just learning about.

I think that it is mostly the spacing out and inability to follow directions, that I believe, at her age should be able to, is most concerning to me. Although, I think that since she has started here, I have seen a slight improvement.

I gave it some deep thought yesterday. I think leading to her lack of understanding of instruction, may be the fact that she placed in a daycare that mainly spoke a foreign language. Do you think that it is possible that she simply conditioned herself to tune out instructions and space out during activities as she is so customed to not being able to understand what is happening around her?

[Fun&care]

It sounds to me like she is a bit overwhelmed by her new surrounding and as a result things are just not " registering". I had one like this too and it took maybe 2-3 months but she got better...oddly enough her parents were also prone to brag about her achievements most of which I never really got to see at daycare. She also was very well behaved and I never had any issues with her at all but there was definitely a transition period where she seemed a little lost. I would give her more time to get into your routine and your program, while keeping a close eye on her.

[bright sparks]

Thanks bright sparks. The last few days, I have decided that I was going to ignore everything that the mother told me (sounds horrible, I know...lol) and treat her as a child that I am just learning about.

I think that it is mostly the spacing out and inability to follow directions, that I believe, at her age should be able to, is most concerning to me. Although, I think that since she has started here, I have seen a slight improvement.

I gave it some deep thought yesterday. I think leading to her lack of understanding of instruction, may be the fact that she placed in a daycare that mainly spoke a foreign language. Do you think that it is possible that she simply conditioned herself to tune out instructions and space out during activities as she is so customed to not being able to understand what is happening around her?

If you have seen even a slight improvement at this stage then that is fantastic and I think there is a good chance then that it could be something similar to what Fun&care experienced. I doubt she has been conditioned to tune things out. That would be a pretty intelligent skill which I can't imagine a 3 year old being capable of. If she was ignoring you then that would be bad behaviour but it doesnt seem like thats even the case in this situation. Again I would keep a record of any behviours that seem out of sorts and keep good communication going with the parent too so that you can work closely to have a positive partnership in caregiving. I don't think it is bad to ignore what the parent said, sometimes thats actually for the best. They are biased and tend to blow things out of proportion quite frequently. Maybe you will see this inteligence come out and bloom once the child has transitioned properly. I listen to everything that parents tell me and use my best judgement to decide how to move forward for the childs best interest and logistically within my daycares current dynamic and setup.

[Busy ECE mommy]

It could be as simple as taking time to transition, but could also indicate issues with hearing or a receptive language delay. The things that immediately came to mind as concerning were: the spacing out behaviour/inability to follow directions/inappropriate responses to questions, or her random utterances not related to the topic at hand. Does she make eye contact or carry on reciprocal conversations with peers? Any repetitive behaviours/OCD/facial expressions that don't match the situation? Does she role play appropriately with toys? My gut instinct says to be on alert for anything along the ASD lines. Definitely do the Nipissing screening, and the Ages and Stages questionnaire is more specific as well.

[playfelt]

If language was the issue you find she simply followed the other children and did what they were doing assuming that is what she was supposed to do such as sitting down at the table.

Sounds more to me like the mom is aware that something is just off and she is trying to convince herself and others by what child can do. Since you didn't see the puzzles maybe she just moved from big knobs to small knobs not to the 24 piece puzzles your other 3 year olds can do.

What was the reason for moving from the other daycare. Could it be that the caregiver had concerns mom did not want to hear. If other caregiver spoke only in Chinese by now the child would be almost fluent since she would have learned the language by immersion - if she only picked up a few words that is either a big concern or says that the fact the other provider spoke Chinese is simply an aside of info and child was spoken to in English meaning she is not processing much of what she hears.

What is her vocabulary, speaking like in terms of complexity for her age.

[ttremble88]

Okay, let me address everyones questions:

Playfelt: She was moved from her last daycare due to the family moving cities. The mom had mentioned, in email before our interview, that "she speaks Chinese, due to her last provider, but I am not sure if any of it stuck" Mind you, she had only been out of this daycare, as far as I know for a month. She has yet to say anything to me and another language in attempt to voice herself. I think that her vocab is on par for her age. But you mostly hear it during free play. If you ask her something, she just stares at you blankly. She hears you. Is just lost for words.

Busy ECE Mommy: She does indeed make eye contact with both her peer and myself and paly appropriately with toys. She is able to carry on a conversation with her peers, provided that it is play. She enjoys role playing with our toy animals and acts out situations with the other children. But if asked a question, she usually just stares at the person, not saying anything, until I pull an answer out of her. For example, if she is playing with a cow, she will say, "I eat hay", but if you ask her "what does a cow eat?" She will just stare at you blankly. This goes for personal questions, for example, would you like water or milk? She usually replies with "Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm" I have not noticed any face expressions or behaviours that do not match the situation.

[bright sparks]

It could be as simple as taking time to transition, but could also indicate issues with hearing or a receptive language delay. The things that immediately came to mind as concerning were: the spacing out behaviour/inability to follow directions/inappropriate responses to questions, or her random utterances not related to the topic at hand. Does she make eye contact or carry on reciprocal conversations with peers? Any repetitive behaviours/OCD/facial expressions that don't match the situation? Does she role play appropriately with toys? My gut instinct says to be on alert for anything along the ASD lines. Definitely do the Nipissing screening, and the Ages and Stages questionnaire is more specific as well.

Any chance you have a copy of the ages and stages you could share?

[bright sparks]

Okay, let me address everyones questions:

Playfelt: She was moved from her last daycare due to the family moving cities. The mom had mentioned, in email before our interview, that "she speaks Chinese, due to her last provider, but I am not sure if any of it stuck" Mind you, she had only been out of this daycare, as far as I know for a month. She has yet to say anything to me and another language in attempt to voice herself. I think that her vocab is on par for her age. But you mostly hear it during free play. If you ask her something, she just stares at you blankly. She hears you. Is just lost for words.

Busy ECE Mommy: She does indeed make eye contact with both her peer and myself and paly appropriately with toys. She is able to carry on a conversation with her peers, provided that it is play. She enjoys role playing with our toy animals and acts out situations with the other children. But if asked a question, she usually just stares at the person, not saying anything, until I pull an answer out of her. For example, if she is playing with a cow, she will say, "I eat hay", but if you ask her "what does a cow eat?" She will just stare at you blankly. This goes for personal questions, for example, would you like water or milk? She usually replies with "Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm" I have not noticed any face expressions or behaviours that do not match the situation.

This absolutely sounds like a working memory problem unless it simply is anxiety related to transitioning in but I don't think so by the sounds of it. It is not a hearing issue. If you have to pull the information out of her then she has a processing issue. Document everything and if after a couple of months MAX you see no improvement then I would recommend you give a copy of the written documentation to the family and suggest they take it to discuss with the family dr or pediatrician if they have one. It is a very common issue and requires you to just figure out the best method of asking a question so her working memory is able to process what she heard and get it to the tip of her tongue :)

[Fun&care]

. But if asked a question, she usually just stares at the person, not saying anything, until I pull an answer out of her. For example, if she is playing with a cow, she will say, "I eat hay", but if you ask her "what does a cow eat?" She will just stare at you blankly. This goes for personal questions, for example, would you like water or milk? She usually replies with "Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm" I have not noticed any face expressions or behaviours that do not match the situation.

Yes this is what I experienced with the dcg I mentioned before. It got to the point where if she wanted a toy or anything, she HAD to ask and until she did she did not get what she wanted. It's weird, I know...a part of me thought that sometimes this was her way of controlling her environment...sort of a manipulative behavior. Hard to explain but after seeing how manipulative she was with her parents by not answering etc. I realized this was a controlling behavior which is why I began demanding that she ask for things properly etc. I don't think you should rule out medical/ behavioral issues but I wouldn't jump the gun and say anything just yet to the parents and if you don't see any improvement in a few weeks try being a bit more demanding in terms of getting her to articulate herself. Clearly as you have mentioned her vocabulary is fine so that is not the problem...the question is WHY is she choosing not to answer...does she just need more time, is she being manipulative or could she be somewhere on the spectrum? All you can do is watch and wait.

[Fun&care]

Just thought of an example...dcg would start crying at pick up so parents would scramble trying to figure out what's wrong, asking her loads of questions " are you hungry, are you tired, are you hot etc etc etc" and dcg would give the blank stare and parents would keep going asking her questions instead of getting dcg to TELL them what was wrong. Honestly I think she did it a) for attention, b) because she was never taught how to express herself properly and c) because she kinda enjoyed watching her parents scramble and felt that so long as she didn't reveal what was wrong it meant she was in CONTROL. Which is why I came to no longer tolerate it after a while because I could see right though this little game she played. I know this is making it sound like she was a bad kid lol she really truly was not but was not taught proper communication and was conditioned to just not give adults an answer and just waiting for them to figure it out themselves all while getting loads of attention and feeling in control.

[bright sparks]

I don't think what tremble is describing sounds the same as fun & care. Trembles child is able to play independently with little or no guidance. Nowhere was it written in the original post that the child needed to ask for a toy to be able to play with it.

Not being able to follow direction is a completely different thing and also the fact that the child knows what a cow eats but can't find the answer when asked directly is indicative of difficulty versus stubborn and choosing not to answer. I would try to engage in a conversation with her that she instigates and see if there is a difference. This may not be easy at first anyway until the child is fully comfortable with you. Please do not write this up to manipulative behaviour. If it isn't and it's treated as such, it will likely be damaging to the child. Also if they have a problem with working memory it doesn't mean they are on the spectrum. It's so hard for any of us to know on here without seeing the child and/or without a background in special needs. Speaking for myself, I have cared for special needs kids and have one of my own so just from what you wrote I see some red flags but then face to face things could be very different.