Poop Talk...Passing on educational info to parents

[bright sparks]

BEWARE...lol....grap hic detailing of poop follows ;)

So thought I'd just bring up something that has been ongoing with one of my dckids since he started last August. I get that there will likely be those of you who think I have crossed a boundary line, and that's fine but not really relevant to my post. Each to their own, I believe I have a duty to the wellbeing of every child in my care, even if that results in getting under a parents skin. I think the way I have gone about this was the best method and just wonder if others have experienced this issue professionally or personally or passed on info to parents before. I'm going to try and run quickly over the ins and outs and not get into to much detail over things that aren't to relative to this.

This guy is 18 months old and has been with me for 7 mths. He has always pooped a lot but within a month or two of being here was having 2-3 loose bowl movements nearly every day. It is to the point that even if I catch him doing it and change him within a minute of finishing that his diaper can not hold it. He didn't sleep well upon coming here and his parents really struggled to have the willpower to train him but mom was convinced he was in pain. She eliminated dairy after we had a conversation about how dairy intolerance is very common even in children this age, if not the most common IME, and I suggested she take it out completely and see if she notices a change. Well there was a big change and he was much happier. Still pooping a couple of times a day typically and still very loose although not consistently diarrhea like liquid, but still very loose and no form. His mom says there is no diarrhea at home, they call it pasty, although it definitely isn't a solid poop that just goes pasty from being squished in the diaper. I call BS on her claim as there is no way in the world this is only happening here, just makes no sense at all. Well in the last couple of months there is now undigested food present. I know there are certain foods that are totally indigestible and are just dietary fibre but I am talking every food type beyond that. A few months back he had horrific diarrhea and after a week of 3x a day and liquid mom decided to be all like "Oh we gave him a couple ounces of cheese and the odd spoon of yoghurt last week, maybe that's the problem." Err you think! He had teeth come in a few weeks later and she decided to blame it on this even though the total elimination of dairy again seemed to reduce the severity of his movements but still very loose. Regardless of the cause it still carries on.

Well I have a great line of communication with this mother, although she rarely takes my advice, first time mum, babies her child to an extreme not allowing any opportunities for independence and has an excuse for everything. I mentioned to her a couple of weeks ago how I had looked into probiotics knowing that they are good for healthy gut flora and aid in digestion. I did a lot of research for myself as I have bad heartburn and learnt I have low hydrochloric acid production in my gut causing this and in every article I came across there was reference to the links between poor digestive function, food intolerances, undigested food, and poor bowl movements. I asked if she would be interested in me forwarding this info to her as it was an interesting read, immediately making me think of her son and she was very open to that. I make sure that during every conversation that I reinforce that I do not want to come across as pushy and that she absolutely should tell me if this is something she doesn't want me to get involved with, but she is happy to look into it.

Unfortunately she just seems to be brainwashed like so many others that the family dr knows best about nutrition and supplementation when in fact, and I say FACT is, that they have little to no training WHAT SO EVER in this area. Her dr sent her to a dietician who was a waste of time, not a shocker, and the family dr is actually telling her specifically which formula to give her son which contains milk protein but is considered a safe alternative for children with intolerances. To much of a generalization in my opinion as every child is different, and I have mentioned to her that perhaps this is the cause of his bowl movement issues as he consumes a hell of a lot of it daily as it is. It makes sense for him to have a poorly functioning digestive system as he is not consuming any of the foods which contain the healthy bacteria which is fermented product and dairy. Most other sources are poor and don't even make it into our guts before it is no longer viable to be absorbed.

Anyway regardless of my opinion, I forwarded the links to her. I don't want to terminate for this, goodness no, but I can't just go on with being elbow deep in diarrhea on such a regular basis without saying something. This child will no doubt be malnutritioned as a result of losing so much water along with many other things and I owe it to him to speak up although no doubt it is falling on deaf ears.

Anyone else had to deal with a similar situation where you have had to educate a parent on such things, or you have dealt with similar health/poop issues?

I thought the links would be a better way of opening the door to info to her versus giving my opinion. I thought she may be more receptive from sources written by health professionals qualified to comment. I know not everyone shares the same opinions on lifestyle and not one model works for everyone, that's why I took this approach and so far no upset or angry parents!

[5 Little Monkeys]

I'm not sure what else you can do. It's great that mom is open and willing to read the links you provide her with but if she isn't going to do anything differently than it's sorta pointless. I would maybe suggest to her to ask her doctor about these articles. If the doctor agrees with them and tells her so, maybe she will change than?

It's gotta be tough for the little guy!! With that many poops he must be getting diaper rash from time to time?

[Fun&care]

I have been in a similar position as you brightsparks. I had a dcg who, no joke, would have loose poop 4-6 times per day. It was ridiculous and even though I hinted several times that I thought she was drinking too much milk he parents never did anything about it. And when I say too much milk, I am talking 2 8 oz bottles per day at my house and probably 2-3 more of those at home from what I heard. She was twelve months and really that is just way too much milk. Finally, I told them around 18 months that we needed to cut down on milk because it was making her a picky eater. I always serve food before milk but if she didn't like what was served, which was most of the time, she would sit and wait for her milk. So her diet was pretty liquid. Finally when we cut back the pooping dropped dramatically to 1-2 per day. It is SO frustrating though to be in a position where you KNOW something is wrong and have a pretty good idea why but the parents a) don't seem to care or b) are too lazy to do anything about it.

[bright sparks]

I'm not sure what else you can do. It's great that mom is open and willing to read the links you provide her with but if she isn't going to do anything differently than it's sorta pointless. I would maybe suggest to her to ask her doctor about these articles. If the doctor agrees with them and tells her so, maybe she will change than?

It's gotta be tough for the little guy!! With that many poops he must be getting diaper rash from time to time?

Problem with seeing the dr is his take on this will be opinion not education although will still be better received than mine because of the letters MD and the lack of education people have on what a dr knows about these things. I hate how misleaded people can be about a dr's role. A nutritionist could shoot them out of the water in every single aspect of nutrition.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Maybe find an article that says nutritionists are more educated than doctors??? haha

I agree with you. I just don't have any suggestions for ya!

[bright sparks]

I have been in a similar position as you brightsparks. I had a dcg who, no joke, would have loose poop 4-6 times per day. It was ridiculous and even though I hinted several times that I thought she was drinking too much milk he parents never did anything about it. And when I say too much milk, I am talking 2 8 oz bottles per day at my house and probably 2-3 more of those at home from what I heard. She was twelve months and really that is just way too much milk. Finally, I told them around 18 months that we needed to cut down on milk because it was making her a picky eater. I always serve food before milk but if she didn't like what was served, which was most of the time, she would sit and wait for her milk. So her diet was pretty liquid. Finally when we cut back the pooping dropped dramatically to 1-2 per day. It is SO frustrating though to be in a position where you KNOW something is wrong and have a pretty good idea why but the parents a) don't seem to care or b) are too lazy to do anything about it.

I think in this case its not that the parents don't care or are lazy, although some are for sure, but simply that they have been brainwashed into believing everything in those baby books and the health guides that are funded and sponsored by for profit healthcare companies who get financial insentives as a result of people following their guidelines. This boy drinks about 36 oz of milk a day. I have raised this on this forum before to many responses of how its fine for them to drink lots of milk which just isn't true. Any and all research conducted on the benefit of consuming milk has been funded by dairy companies and those who have some financial shares in said companies. I couldn't care less how much they want to give him if they choose do do that then that is their perogative but when he is pooping such a lot and so loose for such a long time and nothing else has resolved this issue, then it's frustrating. I wish they would just cut out the bottles even if it was just for a week to see if it makes any difference. Even cutting out his daytime milk would like show a difference. Formula is mainly made of sugar and water along with altered proteins, some of which come from dairy. Cows milk is a common intolerance in children resulting in constipation, diarrhea and stomach issues. That's fact not opinion. It's not fair to expect me to just deal with this, its even worse that this child is potentially very toxic and ill on the inside and this will likely take its toll over time. I do think that there is no more I can do, but at what point after listening to mum complain week after week and be all oblivious and in denial every time I tell her the daily poop report, is it okay for me to tell her outright that I have given her numerous options to try and that she needs to start doing some of them if she expects to see any change. Unfortunately it seems that this is more of a problem for me and from my perspective and that parents in fact don't think its a problem. Who knows!!

[bright sparks]

Maybe find an article that says nutritionists are more educated than doctors??? haha

I agree with you. I just don't have any suggestions for ya!

You are dead right!! LOL Not sure if the parents would be so receptive to that. Sometimes people just aren't able to hear what you are saying. It's like a parental defence mechanism when someone tries to tell you there is something wrong with your child. I get that but it is frustrating.

[CrazyEight]

Oh man, my daughter was the same way. She was ok switching from nursing to formula, but when we switched her to cow's milk at a year, and started introducing cheese, her poops were gross and she would wake up screaming at night for (what we could tell) no reason. It took a while to figure out that she woke up about an hour or so after a bottle of milk, every time. Finally I switched her to soy milk and cut out all dairy. The screaming stopped immediately, but her diaper was even worse. Horrible spraying poop and a red, raw, bleeding bum. It was horrible! We took her to the doctor THREE times, each time explaining about a suspected dairy intolerance and that we had just switched to soy milk. Each time we were told to keep her on soy milk, that it was just a virus, and that she "probably doesn't have a dairy intolerance anyways." I ended up ignoring all of this, took her off soy milk, and the poop stopped within 24 hours - she is allergic to soy milk too! We tried lactaid, and that worked fine. We were able to introduce probiotic yogurt with no problems, and up until age 4 she had lactaid, yogurt, and no other dairy. Now that she's 5 1/2 we slowly started introducing regular milk and dairy again and it looks like she's outgrown the lactose intolerance, which is awesome! I'll never really let the doctor's reaction go, though. He was completely clueless.
That's a really tough situation that you have - how do you tell someone that their doctor may NOT know best? Good luck!!

[bright sparks]

Oh man, my daughter was the same way. She was ok switching from nursing to formula, but when we switched her to cow's milk at a year, and started introducing cheese, her poops were gross and she would wake up screaming at night for (what we could tell) no reason. It took a while to figure out that she woke up about an hour or so after a bottle of milk, every time. Finally I switched her to soy milk and cut out all dairy. The screaming stopped immediately, but her diaper was even worse. Horrible spraying poop and a red, raw, bleeding bum. It was horrible! We took her to the doctor THREE times, each time explaining about a suspected dairy intolerance and that we had just switched to soy milk. Each time we were told to keep her on soy milk, that it was just a virus, and that she "probably doesn't have a dairy intolerance anyways." I ended up ignoring all of this, took her off soy milk, and the poop stopped within 24 hours - she is allergic to soy milk too! We tried lactaid, and that worked fine. We were able to introduce probiotic yogurt with no problems, and up until age 4 she had lactaid, yogurt, and no other dairy. Now that she's 5 1/2 we slowly started introducing regular milk and dairy again and it looks like she's outgrown the lactose intolerance, which is awesome! I'll never really let the doctor's reaction go, though. He was completely clueless.
That's a really tough situation that you have - how do you tell someone that their doctor may NOT know best? Good luck!!

Yours is a classic story and I'm glad your daughter was able to come out of this in what seems like a positive way. Soy replacement is also really really bad...unfortunately most just follow the dr's orders oblivious of the fact that they are as equally clueless as us to the real cause.

[mickyc]

Twice!! I had one girl who was constantly having diarrhea. Mom was concerned as well. She went to the doctor and they did tests etc and nothing. Doc said she was fine. Mom said she was cutting out milk and immediately it was better. We have continued feeding her dairy products but for some reason when she drinks cow's milk it causes diarrhea. I am so glad mom was on board with it and we worked together.

2nd child - I had a new girl start in Sept last year. She always had runny diarrhea type poops and two or three a day. It was so annoying!! When we had any sort of virus running through daycare it was worse. I mentioned to mom about possibly trying to cut out her milk/dairy and see if it changed things. She was not on board with it. She also told me that it never happened at home for her. There is no way it was ok to poop like that IMO. I began to call mom after the 3rd diarrhea every time for pickup. How did I know the child wasn't sick? There were times I didn't send her home and it ended up being something and passing it on to the other kids. One day I counted 9 poopy diarrhea diapers I had to change (3 kids)!! This child left my care in Feb. I still wonder if this was the reason they left. All I know is I love not having to change constant yucky diapers.

[Fun&care]

Yes unfortunately these days I find people place way too much value on cows milk for kids. My son never had any because it made him breakout in horrible rashes on his face (this when he was breastfed and I consumed dairy). I cut out dairy and voila the rashes disappeared. This intolerance continued until he was about two at which point it seemed he outgrew it, although to this day he is not a fan of dairy.

When I was a teenager I started suffering from pretty bad acne and it all again disappeared when I cut out dairy, sugar and caffeine.

All to say that dairy CAN be a good supplement to a child's diet IF they can handle it and only as a SUPPLEMENT, it shouldn't be their main source of calories and should only be a small part of their diet.

If I were you, I would just keep pushing the issue like I did even though our situations were not exactly the same. I feel your frustration!

[5 Little Monkeys]

I'm exhausted tonight and might have missed this but....have you or can you decrease the amount of milk and dairy he has with you during the day? I have a child with a milk allergy right now so the parents send his food and milk everyday. I just give him milk once a day and send the rest home.

I also had a child with a milk sensitivity but I supplied the food. I would buy lactose free yogurt and just gave that to all the kids. Are there things like that, that you could buy and feed him instead?

[bright sparks]

I'm exhausted tonight and might have missed this but....have you or can you decrease the amount of milk and dairy he has with you during the day? I have a child with a milk allergy right now so the parents send his food and milk everyday. I just give him milk once a day and send the rest home.

I also had a child with a milk sensitivity but I supplied the food. I would buy lactose free yogurt and just gave that to all the kids. Are there things like that, that you could buy and feed him instead?

He only has his cans of formula which I have cut by 50%. Only 1 of my kids has milk, plus this little guy who has his special stuff and then another child whose mother has actually researched thoroughly how bad dairy is for us humans. I work very hard to include better sources of calcium in every meal to make sure every child is having a healthy dose, and as for iron, well there actually isn't any naturally occurring iron in milk, its all modified so terrible stuff anyway. I don't feed the kiddos yogurt and the 1 kiddo who can have dairy has their milk sent in. I'm not going to bother spending more on special dietary foods for a child whose family will take their child home and destroy all that goodness. I'd rather eliminate dairy and add collards to every recipe imaginable. I also make kale chips so they get a great amount of calcium there without all the fat and other nasties.

[momofnerds]

why is this child on forumula.
also if he is at your house why are you giving him so much formula, does he not eat.
why can't you give him water

also is he having loose or diarrhea. There is a difference.
also, how do you not know that its not milk its acually fruit. i have had kids who eat alot of fruit and end up with loose stools all day long.Or juice, he could be getting juice at home too.

also, yogurt does help the digestive system, and if he does have some tummy problems then yogurt may help

also, did you know that tylenol or advil also will give kids loose stools. I've been down this road too.

you have 2 choices, either term them or deal with it. Ya it stinks, but this is what I would do. I would start sending the poopy diapers home so they can see what is going on.

has he ever done a stool sample, because the child could have worms too.

you also have to remember to not mix your beliefs with theirs either. Also, maybe a food journal would be the best for you and your family this way you will have an idea what he has eaten or drank.

[momofnerds]

I just checked the can of formula I have and it has no sugar in it, so what formula does.

[mickyc]

Yes good questions - why IS this child on formula?! No reason for an 18 month old to be on formula. I usually like all daycare kids weaned off the bottle/formula no later than 16 months

[bright sparks]

Much easier to answer all your questions momofnerds within text as there were so many and I want to be very clear and not miss anything.


why is this child on forumula. Because the parents want him to be on it at the advice of their dr to keep him on till he is 2 years old because he has a dairy intolerance
also if he is at your house why are you giving him so much formula, does he not eat. As stated in previous posts, I have cut out 50% of his milk intake and yes he does eat, no problems in that department although his diet is dairy free.
why can't you give him water I do give him water, but as you say further down about keeping my personal beliefs out of it, I give him his milk because his parents tell me to, if it were up to me or I was acting on my belief systems, I would give him ZERO!

also is he having loose or diarrhea. There is a difference.I am well aware of the difference between the two given my history working in healthcare. This child since cutting back on the quantity of formula and cutting out dairy has only loose movements, when his parents gave dairy it was diarrhea, the kind that is liquid, when they reintroduced it in small quantities it was also dhiarrhea. His movements now have no solidity to them except undigested food but have the colouring of poop, versus liquid which is more yellow in colour with dhiarrea. They are not smooth and pasty or even clumpy but very sloppy and he has to have a change of clothing nearly everyday and sometimes twice.
also, how do you not know that its not milk its acually fruit. i have had kids who eat alot of fruit and end up with loose stools all day long.Or juice, he could be getting juice at home too. This answers a question further down too. I am big into observation and recording so about 4 months ago I started a journal that mom and I pass back and forth. This was prior to eliminating the dairy as I wanted her to see exactly what he was eating and I also wanted to see how much and how frequent certain foods were being ingested. When his dhiarrhea returned about 6 weeks ago I spoke to his mum about cutting out fruit as this can commonly cause loose movements as the food journal showed that he was eating a large quantity. I said that I would no longer serve him fruit unless it was bananas as they have a tendency to bung children up and so he was still getting lots of nutrients I would serve him raw veggies for snacks as a replacement. This didn't make any difference and it was only after 3 continuous days of 3-4 dhiarrhea apisodes that mum fessed up that they had given him these small servings of dairy and she eliminated it again and within 4 days the stool changed to loose and generally only 1-3 a day.

also, yogurt does help the digestive system, and if he does have some tummy problems then yogurt may help If a child is given probiotic yogurt it can help digestive issues, but if it is any other yogurt then the sugars, even the artificial sweeteners dominate and these types of yogurts do very little if anything to help an unhealthy gut. That being said this child has a DAIRY INTOLERANCE which I stated in the original post so I can not give him yogurt of any kind.

also, did you know that tylenol or advil also will give kids loose stools. I've been down this road too.He isn't regularly medicated to my knowledge and I doubt very much this would explain a 7 month period of absolutely no solid bowel movements

you have 2 choices, either term them or deal with it. Ya it stinks, but this is what I would do. I would start sending the poopy diapers home so they can see what is going on. I wasn't under the impression I said I wasn't going to deal with it. This post was simply asking others of their experiences and a place to express my concerns and opinions and to have the support of my online professional peers. I also made it clear that I wasn't terming but to me the actual "dealing with it" is to do everything I can to help this child, obviously within the confines of my role. That doesn't mean that I just deal with it by doing nothing.

has he ever done a stool sample, because the child could have worms too. To my knowledge no. The child was at the dr's as recently as Wednesday where the dr dismissed it as even being an issue to have this many loose bowel movements over such an extended period.

you also have to remember to not mix your beliefs with theirs either. As I wrote in my original post, I have not done this at any point and have given the family every opportunity to tell me no thank you. Also, maybe a food journal would be the best for you and your family this way you will have an idea what he has eaten or drank.

This was the easiest way to address all your points I hope it is clear to read

[bright sparks]

I just checked the can of formula I have and it has no sugar in it, so what formula does.

That's just one formula though right...

This brand is Alimentum and the number two ingredient is Sucrose which is SUGAR! This formula also contains casein which is number three ingredient and is a dairy product.

[bright sparks]

Yes good questions - why IS this child on formula?! No reason for an 18 month old to be on formula. I usually like all daycare kids weaned off the bottle/formula no later than 16 months

I'm sure you remember my older post about child still having so many bottles at 17mths because I just read back on it so as not to contradict myself and be refreshed on where the thread went and you were one of few who agreed with me that he didn't need so many bottles or nearly as much milk.

The simple answer to this question then is that this child is on formula because his parents tell me to give it to him. I have people on one side saying I should not cross the line on my beliefs and on the other side people telling me a child can be kept on formula till 2 years. I really couldn't care less about the milk, dairy or otherwise, I do however care about the child's wellbeing and that is why I am trying my damnedest to help find the route of the loose stool and occasional diarrhea. He has a very clear and obvious intolerance to dairy but his formula contains a component of dairy. The childs dr says it is a more digestible form of dairy protein but there is always an exception and this may be for the majority, but not everyone. Also for those who get loose movements from to much fruit, it isn't just the dietary fibre but mainly the sugar content that causes it. This formula also has a great amount of sugar in it so it is obvious to me that this is a dairy issue likely causing an increased response to the sugar content also due to a no doubt leaky gut. Yes that is only a hunch from a daycare provider, but unless someone else can come up with an alternative cause, and back it up with facts that make sense, I'm just gonna stick with the dairy problem. He has such a wonderful appetite and eats everything so if the formula was eliminated it wouldn't do any harm