Trumped by cheaper rates...again.

[bright sparks]

So I interviewed a lovely family last week for September start when one of my current guys will be staying home with mom on mat leave. Interview went well and the mother said she really liked everything about my daycare program. She had another interview already scheduled that she wanted to honor and I said it was always a good idea to meet with multiple providers to get a real sense of their different options. She said she would call me today to let me know either way.

She just called and said she thought we were both equally great providers and didn't like one more than another so it came down to rate. I asked how much the other provider was charging and she said she charges by the hour so for the 8 hours it is $36 ($4.50 per hour) SO their rate is in fact the same as mine, $45 a day but I charge for the day which is 7:30-5:30 (10hrs) and this provider found a loop hole to undercut others. Clever or crafty, I don't know.

I understand the parents choice to go with her. It wasn't because she was cheaper No1, but because they liked us equally that's how they were able to make their choice.

I'm just gonna have to keep waiting for a family to sign on. I have one spot open now, for over about 18mths now and then another opening up in September. I'm actually trying to get an additional job to make up the difference in income if I have any chance of getting my finances in order for giving up work August of next year to go to school.

I'm not annoyed but a little disheartened. It's not something I can control or about doing anything differently. Just luck of the draw which can sometimes just be a bit crappy:unsure:

[5 Little Monkeys]

That would be disappointing for sure!! I'm assuming the other dcprovider charges only for hours used to discourage parents from staying right until close because they are paying for it? I charge for the day too but have it in my contract that I expect pick up shortly after their shift has ended. (I have one more week of being done early and than I have a new family starting who needs care right until my end time :( I'm sad lol but needed to fill the spot) A friend of mine who charged hourly said that all of her parents picked up as early as possible so they weren't charged as much. I personally don't like that method as our income is already inconsistent and I thought this method just made it worse. Plus, the way she did it, she got paid after care was given and that is a big no no to me! lol

I have been in the same situation as you...parents like me and my dc but choose a cheaper dc if they like us both equally. It sucks but I understand. I have had 2 who went to cheaper dc's and than asked later if they could have the spot here because things didn't work out with the other dc....both times I had already filled the spot so it wasn't an option.

From what I have read here, you provide great care so I am sure someone will take your spot, hopefully quickly!!

[5 Little Monkeys]

I'm confused as to how you came to those conclusions luppernoodle? I took it as the parents only need care for a total of 8 hours.

[5 Little Monkeys]

I guess it depends where you live. Very few of my kids are here for long days because one parent drops off and the other picks up because they have different shifts. I also have a few who don't even work 8 hours a day but are still considered full time employed.

I just thought it was odd that you assumed the parents wouldn't have factored all that into their decision. I guess I assumed also though and figured the 8 hours they need care for is the total number including commuting! Anyways, doesn't matter, I just wondered! lol

[bright sparks]

I guess it depends where you live. Very few of my kids are here for long days because one parent drops off and the other picks up because they have different shifts. I also have a few who don't even work 8 hours a day but are still considered full time employed.

I just thought it was odd that you assumed the parents wouldn't have factored all that into their decision. I guess I assumed also though and figured the 8 hours they need care for is the total number including commuting! Anyways, doesn't matter, I just wondered! lol

I think you are most likely correct 5LM. I don't like sweeping statements as a rule as in "all full time working parent's work 8 hour days" Well not all full time daycare kids have two parents working 40 hour weeks. Some work shorter hours but have longer commutes, some start very early and finish early or start late and finish late. I have a parent for example who commutes from Niagara region to downtown TO and she leaves at 5:30 to take the GO bus and starts at 8. She finishes at 3:00 and gets the bus home. She doesn't get into the local GO station until between 4:30 and 5 as the traffic varies greatly on the highway. She only works 7 hour days. Her husband starts later and drops off at 7:30 and she picks up as she is back earlier. I have had more families who do not work an 8 hour day or 9-5 job than those who do. Also where I live a phenomenal amount of people commute to TO which is typically 1 1/2 hours- 2 hrs during rush hour, if you are lucky. There are many more family friendly companies now that are allowing for much more flexible work schedules to accommodate working parents. You can't paint everyone with the same brush and the 8 hour working day model is reducing constantly and has been for quite some time.

I do think that the family who I interviewed are foolish to restrict themselves to the 8 hour day. I know people charge for a set amount of hours but I don't. Peoples contracts have their start time and finish time so they aren't making a habit of coming right at opening, and picking up right at the last minute if they don't need to, but if I parent typically picks up at 4 for example and they have an occasional late meeting or appointment or get held up, as long as I know in advance and they are here before closing time there is no additional charge. If it becomes to regular then I discuss with them that these aren't the terms of the contract. They always have to ask my permission in advance of making changes at which time I can say no if it doesn't fit into my schedule. By restricting themselves to the 8 hour day even though the provider is open earlier and later, whenever they are running late, or when the reality sets in the google maps travel time and actual travel time are very different in reality, then they will be paying the same as they would have with me but without the potential hassle that they are "late". They are a nice family and I don't think ill of them at all. I think they are thinking properly about what they need as a family both in quality childcare and financially. I don't think this providers method of charging is a reflection of the type of care she gives, how on earth could I know?? If the family were to come back to me in the future I would certainly entertain them as I respect their honesty and sometimes its just a case of new parent's not knowing any better and this will be a lesson to them. I actually hope for the child's sake that this just works out great for them. They didn't come to me and while my business is my number one priority, in the grand scheme of things, it is the child's care that should be top priority even if that means they are with someone else.

[momofnerds]

well, I do contract hours. Anything over 4 hours is a full time spot which is 30 dollars for a day up to 9 hours, but anything after 5pm is additional regardless of contract hours. I work 7 to 5 everyday, but that doesn't mean you leave your kids here all day. And its rare that I have kids here for more than 9 hours and I live in the county so to get to the city is a bit of a drive.

and maybe the parents don't need those long hours. I wouldn't pay for extra hours if I didn't need them, that sounds dumb. So really the other provider isn't undercutting you, she gave them the price for the hours they needed.

luppernoodle, I think your assumption that the provider is illegal is so stupid, really because she charges by the hour. Sorry lady give your head a shake. So because I charge 30 dollars a full time spot I'm running illegally. Its people like you who give daycare providers a bad name. You don't know were we live or our reasoning for our prices, but to go around saying "illegal" is just as bad as those newspapers who are calling us illegal!

[bright sparks]

well, I do contract hours. Anything over 4 hours is a full time spot which is 30 dollars for a day up to 9 hours, but anything after 5pm is additional regardless of contract hours. I work 7 to 5 everyday, but that doesn't mean you leave your kids here all day. And its rare that I have kids here for more than 9 hours and I live in the county so to get to the city is a bit of a drive.

and maybe the parents don't need those long hours. I wouldn't pay for extra hours if I didn't need them, that sounds dumb. So really the other provider isn't undercutting you, she gave them the price for the hours they needed.

luppernoodle, I think your assumption that the provider is illegal is so stupid, really because she charges by the hour. Sorry lady give your head a shake. So because I charge 30 dollars a full time spot I'm running illegally. Its people like you who give daycare providers a bad name. You don't know were we live or our reasoning for our prices, but to go around saying "illegal" is just as bad as those newspapers who are calling us illegal!

As I acknowledged in my last post momofnerds, I have found that most providers on here charge for contracted hours as do I, which I explained I just don't charge late fees if their has been advanced arrangements made for an occasional later pick or earlier drop off if it is still within my open hours. I don't think it's "dumb" to pay for 2 extra hours when a provider such as myself charges for a day, because this avoids any late fees when real life happens and people get held up for any number of reasons. This provider is charging hourly which is not the norm in general and certainly not in my area so she has cleverly found a way to undercut those of us who charge a flat rate which is very clever but potentially problematic when a parent goes over the 8 hours because they are stuck in traffic or similar. Maybe you don't think it is undercutting but pick a different word if you like. I feel like it is undercutting those of us who charge a flat rate and kudos for her for being business smart if that works for her. However, charging a lower rate because a parent wants shorter days does absolutely nothing to help me as a business owner when the chances of filling the leftover hours is slim so if anything is dumb, that practice is. It only puts money in the parent's pocket, not mine and really that's not how successful business' make money. I am flexible enough that I don't charge a late fee if the parent picks up later but before I close so it's not like I'm not more than fair to parent's. I'm not giving them a reduced rate because they need a shorter day. My cell phone bill isn't discounted because I turn it off at night!

[momofnerds]

acually what she is doing is smart. think about it, she is charging for 8 hours 36 dollars, and the parents realize its taking them an additional 2 hours in communte time, well then its 46 dollars, so really no savings really. It always looks nice and dandy now till reality sets in and so does the drive time. And I've had tell me I'm too expensive, the best one was the mom who wanted to pay 25 dollars a day so she can save the other 5 dollars for her cigarrettes lol, I will never ever forget her lol!

[5 Little Monkeys]

I can see both sides, charging per hour and per day. I personally do per day because I find it is more beneficial for me to do that and it keeps my income a little more consistent. I don't think those who charge per hour are providing lesser care and I've never considered them to be undercutting me but I can see your point BS and now do agree somewhat. I've seen a few who charge per hour but I don't really think it's common in my area but maybe it is and I just haven't noticed. I do what's best for me and if a parent doesn't like it, so be it. I can't please everyone so I do what makes sense for me. I am pretty laid back and accommodating though so most parents appreciate this and know not to take advantage of me because they know other dc's won't be so flexible. I tend to deal with things as case by case and choose my battles. There have been times I have let things slide and other times where I put my foot down whether it pisses the parent off or not. It all depends on how much it matters in the grand scheme of things.

Even though I charge per day, I have had VERY few who were here open to close because I ask they pick up within a reasonable time after their shift has ended. I don't charge a late fee until my official closing time though because there are days that a parent will ask if it's okay if their child stays here longer so they can do an errand, attend a meeting, go to a dr's appt etc. As long as it doesn't become a daily or even weekly thing, I don't mind as they are paying for the day.

I agree with you BS. Altho I would always love to fill my spots quickly, I am more about a parent choosing a dc that suits them and their child best because that is what I would want if I was looking for childcare. I have had a couple parents tell me they are meeting with a cheaper dcp and if they like them as much as me, they will choose them due to finances. I always make sure to tell them that I fully understand that and will not hold that against them!! I watch where my money goes too so I completely understand having to choose things based on price sometimes. Some parents come here after meeting the cheaper dcp and some don't and that's okay. Sometimes it works out for them and sometimes they come back and ask if my spot is still available. I actually prefer if a parent checks out other dc's and than chooses me because it assures me that I am offering quality care. I have heard stories of other dc's but have not been in many other hdc's so I have nothing to compare mine too, so it's nice to hear from parents when they say they liked mine best. (I hope that doesn't sound snotty...I just mean a parent telling me that is like a job evaluation in my mind.)

[bright sparks]

acually what she is doing is smart. think about it, she is charging for 8 hours 36 dollars, and the parents realize its taking them an additional 2 hours in communte time, well then its 46 dollars, so really no savings really. It always looks nice and dandy now till reality sets in and so does the drive time. And I've had tell me I'm too expensive, the best one was the mom who wanted to pay 25 dollars a day so she can save the other 5 dollars for her cigarrettes lol, I will never ever forget her lol!

Definitely smart, I said so too. It never fails to amaze me how many parents don't think to keep this nonsense to themselves. It's like we will high five them or something if they are open and honest about stupid things.

[bright sparks]

I can see both sides, charging per hour and per day. I personally do per day because I find it is more beneficial for me to do that and it keeps my income a little more consistent. I don't think those who charge per hour are providing lesser care and I've never considered them to be undercutting me but I can see your point BS and now do agree somewhat. I've seen a few who charge per hour but I don't really think it's common in my area but maybe it is and I just haven't noticed. I do what's best for me and if a parent doesn't like it, so be it. I can't please everyone so I do what makes sense for me. I am pretty laid back and accommodating though so most parents appreciate this and know not to take advantage of me because they know other dc's won't be so flexible. I tend to deal with things as case by case and choose my battles. There have been times I have let things slide and other times where I put my foot down whether it pisses the parent off or not. It all depends on how much it matters in the grand scheme of things.

Even though I charge per day, I have had VERY few who were here open to close because I ask they pick up within a reasonable time after their shift has ended. I don't charge a late fee until my official closing time though because there are days that a parent will ask if it's okay if their child stays here longer so they can do an errand, attend a meeting, go to a dr's appt etc. As long as it doesn't become a daily or even weekly thing, I don't mind as they are paying for the day.

I agree with you BS. Altho I would always love to fill my spots quickly, I am more about a parent choosing a dc that suits them and their child best because that is what I would want if I was looking for childcare. I have had a couple parents tell me they are meeting with a cheaper dcp and if they like them as much as me, they will choose them due to finances. I always make sure to tell them that I fully understand that and will not hold that against them!! I watch where my money goes too so I completely understand having to choose things based on price sometimes. Some parents come here after meeting the cheaper dcp and some don't and that's okay. Sometimes it works out for them and sometimes they come back and ask if my spot is still available. I actually prefer if a parent checks out other dc's and than chooses me because it assures me that I am offering quality care. I have heard stories of other dc's but have not been in many other hdc's so I have nothing to compare mine too, so it's nice to hear from parents when they say they liked mine best. (I hope that doesn't sound snotty...I just mean a parent telling me that is like a job evaluation in my mind.)

Doesn't sound snotty at all, that's exactly my feeling. I also especially agree with the way you take things case by case.


Even though I charge per day, I have had VERY few who were here open to close because I ask they pick up within a reasonable time after their shift has ended. I don't charge a late fee until my official closing time though because there are days that a parent will ask if it's okay if their child stays here longer so they can do an errand, attend a meeting, go to a dr's appt etc. As long as it doesn't become a daily or even weekly thing, I don't mind as they are paying for the day.

Unfortunately this can blow up in our faces in that you give an inch but they take a mile. I still prefer to do things this way though. Everybody deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt and a helping hand occasionally. :)

[5 Little Monkeys]

Agreed! If they were to take advantage of this too often, than I would discuss this with them. However, because I charge by the day, I don't mind if they do it once in awhile but I do think they as parents would want to spend as much time with their child as they can. I have been fortunate that almost all of my parents have always been like this. There was only one that I think left their child here longer than needed but there isn't much I can do about that when I don't have hard proof lol....it's sad to see though!

[mamaof4]

Ladies. Please. Be kind no need to attack each other over a difference of opinion.

[treeholm]

I charge per day, and am open 7:30 to 5 pm. I agree that we can't make a blanket statement like all parents work 8 hour days, but, as someone already mentioned, often you have different people dropping off and picking up. I have one child dropped off by Dad on his way to work at 9 after dropping the older child at school, and Mom, who has to be at work at 7:30, picks up at 3:45 after she has picked up the older child at school. These parents have worked out their hours so that one parent takes the older sibling to school, and the other is finished by 3 for pick up.
Another family, Mom drops off on her way to work at 9:45 and Dad picks up at 5, even though Mom is still working. Another family, Grandma drops off at 9 so the child can sleep in a bit (Mom has to leave at 7 am) and Grandma picks up again at 4:30. I guess when it comes down to it, the longest a child stays is 7 hours, so I'm glad I charge by the day and not by the hour.

[bright sparks]

Right now the shortest day I have for a child is 8 1/2 and the rest are 9 - 9 1/2 depending greatly on traffic as they all commute back from TO to pick up. Fortunately they all have local back up so if they get stuck in traffic and can't get to me by closing then they have someone else pick up. I am always getting text messages of whereabouts they are on their commute home which is helpful.

[momofnerds]

I am willing to bet my Lululemons :D that she has more than the legal 5 children in her care.

I'd expect a phone call from that Mom asking if you still have that opening. Caregivers like that [I]usually[I] are not providing quality food or activities because they don't get the money for it. The parents are still paying the exact same price, she's just been VERY clever in how she gets it.

this is the quote that is stating that because this provider is charging per hour that she is an illegal daycare. I only charge 30 dollars a day so are you saying I'm an illegal daycare too. This is insulting to all of us because again you don't know where we live or why we charge what we do. And I'm angry that you said that we (those who undercharge) don't provide quality food or activities.
I also never called anyone names, I simply stated that the reasoning was stupid. And don't you dare tell me that because of my post that I shouldn't be working with children, yes, readers this was sent to me thru a message. All because I refused to be called illegal.

[bright sparks]

Let me put you straight once and for all. I did not say YOU. I was a parent before I opened my daycare. I interviewed a LOT of people. I interviewed people as cheap as $20 and as expensive as $60. The people I INTERVIEWED and who were RATTED ON by OTHER CAREGIVERS all warned me about a) hourly and b) cheap rates where the norm was $XX per day.

AS A CAREGIVER, every time I go out to playgroup, in walks cargivers with 6 & 7 children. Having been a Mom for 12 years now, I have only seen THREE caregivers beside me who did not push over 5 and THAT IS IN MY EXPERIENCE.

You are taking this FAR too personally. This is a discussion of opinions and now you are attacking me for having one.

The thing is you made a very strong blanket statement which didn't include that it is based on your experience as you have now done. Most providers who post on here always say IME or IMO and after stating their standpoint back it up with a reason. It's not about agreeing with others or tip toeing around someone in case they are insulted, goodness no, but it's about being respectful to people and about providers that you know absolutely nothing about when you pass judgement on them whether on here or elsewhere. You didn't do this, simply made the assumption with no real grounds that she must be illegal and then didn't give any justifiable reason based on fact be it experience or not that this provider MUST be illegal. You can say whatever you want, that's true, but don't expect not to get backlashed when you insult people when making blanket statements like you have done without giving a reason to back it up. In addition if you are sending private messages confronting people about their opinions then again don't expect people to role over and not get defensive. I am all for having your own opinion but expect that of others too. You may not have named another member or meant it to be directed at her, but the statement you made was directed at all providers, or at the very least majority who charge lower than the average. There was for sure a way to put things across in a much better manner without offending people who it may imply are doing the same thing. That's where a simple IMO or IME would have made what you said much less offensive to those who took it as such.

[bright sparks]

Yes, let's talk BLANKET statements here. You ALL make sweeping blanket statements - we all do. Can you imagine for one moment if parents REALLY knew about this site and all the sweeping blanket statements and generalizations we all make about them. There would be so much to answer for suddenly - bumps, scrapes, little bruises, what did they eat, how much, can you prove it - your lives would be very hard once parents read this board and got REALLY ANGRY.

I stand by my opinion and my experience. AS A MOTHER, I avoid and recommend to ALL my friends with kids to AVOID caregivers who undercut other caregivers with their rates and for all the same reasons as in my initial post.

That SHE took it to mean I was talking about HER specifically is HER problem, not mine. I am entitled to my opinion as you all are and I've read more than one thread where you all went after parent who were just asking a question or trying to understand how it all works. It is NOT my ONE statement that is making anyone here look bad. One only has to read the contents of this entire forum.

If we are going to be accurate about this then the truth would be that people will make generalizations based on their experiences which most members will go into the details of and you DID NOT do this. A generalization based on a persons experience is to be expected but the opinion is backed up with examples and an explanation in most cases...again you didn't do that which seems to be the cause of this issue now.

[CrazyEight]

I just have to say, are you sure that EVERY time you see a provider with more than 5 children, that some are not her own? I have 3 of my own kids under 6 and at one time had 5 daycare kids under 6 as well. That's 8 kids total, but I am well within my legal rights to have them. Some providers on these boards have 4 or 5 kids of their own. If they were all close together and all out with a full daycare that could potentially be 10 kids. Now, most of us would say that 10 under age 6 or so would be insane, but it WOULD still be legal if 5 were yours. I think that is the point being made, that blanket, generalizing statements that aren't backed up tend to get people's hackles raised.

[5 Little Monkeys]

luppernoodle, I am not interested in fighting but just wanted to comment on a statement you made....

"I stand by my opinion and my experience. AS A MOTHER, I avoid and recommend to ALL my friends with kids to AVOID caregivers who undercut other caregivers with their rates and for all the same reasons as in my initial post."

I don't think this is a fair statement. I realize it is your opinion but there are providers who offer quality care at a lesser rate than some. They might have a spouse who makes a lot of money and they are doing hdc as a way to make "fun, extra money" and/or to offer their child(ren) playdates and get paid for it. Some aren't doing it to undercut other hdcp's but rather to offer another alternative to parents who need care and can't afford a high fee or get into a subsidized spot. Just because they are offering cheaper dc doesn't necessarily mean that the care is cheap as well or that they are going over their numbers. Some people are better at budgeting and stretching their dollar than others too.

I admit, when I see a provider offering care for far less than I do, I wonder how they are doing it but I don't know their situation and it would be unfair of me to just assume that all that are doing this are running illegally. If they want to charge less and are getting by with their income than all the power to them! We are in the business of providing a service and we will all have different rates according to our own specific situations. It's no different than hair dressers, plumbers, massage therapists, manicurists etc charging different rates. We get to decide how much to charge for the service we provide but IMO that doesn't mean that all the cheap ones should be discredited.

Sometimes cheaper doesn't mean better but I also don't think more expensive means the best!