Rate increases

[bright sparks]

Okay folks I know this is a common topic here on the forum but I'm going to bring it up once again. This is a combination of a vent and a request for advice.

I haven't raised my rates since 2012. I went from $42 ft to $43 and $43 pt to $45. Prior to this I hadn't raised my rates since 2010. It is in my contract that I raise my rates annually in January which everyone signs to acknowledge but I haven't been able to raise them due to area averages.

Well I am conscious of the fact that come January it will be 3 years since a rate increase yet costs still go up and now as someone else pointed out, minimum wage has gone up 75 cents an hour in Ontario too. I really am overdue a raise. To point out the obvious though, this wouldn't be a pay rise at all, simply a rate increase to cover the rising cost of food, utilities and supplies. Here's the thing though...

In my area, I live in a relatively small town but a lot of people commute to TO from here, 3 years ago there were only about 5 daycares advertising and the going rate was $40 a day ft and $43 part time. When I raised my rates in 2012 only one other provider put her rates up in addition to me but I could justify it due to supplying organic food. In the last 2 years at least another 10 providers come up in online searches now and the average they are charging is $30 a day. I know people constantly say that if you can justify the higher daily rate and you are worth it then go for it as people will pay for it but the reality of this is very different.

There are a huge amount of providers who are stay at home mums charging substantially less money for daycare daily who are fantastic providers. I number of them in my area also have a background in ECE and/or were teachers prior to going on their own mat leave. How the heck do I compete with that!?! Contrary to what a lot of people think and say, cheaper rates do not automatically mean mediocre care. Yes there are a bunch of them who are not even close to okay, but there are just a whole load who don't necessarily need the second income so charge less because they can and see it as some personal money to make while staying home with their own children.

Now if my phone was ringing off the hook and I was scheduling interviews left right and centre then I am sure that my daycare and experience would sell themselves but daycare enquiries are still scarce right now. In addition to that, how can I justify my rate to parents who find a good daycare provider charging 10-15 less a day? Okay so maybe they aren't as great as an established provider but how can a parent ever really know until they have experienced them. I know two providers in my town with 10+ years experience and great setups who should really not be caring for children and almost every parent I interview who have been to them prior to me, comment on how awful they are so really its not like parents know that experience means better care, or that better care is not cheap. Its never as cut and dry as that.

So what the heck do I do? I wanted to raise my rates from $45 to $47 come January but I can't fill my spots as it is, but it costs me more money annually so due to these cheapy rates that are eating through my town, I am now taking a hit to my earnings annually. I tell you what I want to do, I want to set up a home daycare association in my area and try and explain to all these cheapys the impact they are having on the local industry and that they need to charge more. My husband suggested I do this a couple of years ago but I said no as people can charge what they want as providers offer different things so justify their fee differently but now I am thinking differently as look at what has happened as a result of this mass undercutting.

I am so frustrated. I am literally only staying doing daycare because of the obvious benefits of being here for my kids who don't really need me to see them off to school or be here after school now they are older, but I compare working outside of the home and the hourly rate and cost of commuting and it still makes more sense to do this till I go to school, but every year I don't raise my rates I make less money as my costs always go up and I'm more than a little pissed off now. People working in Superstore and Food Basics make more money than me. Really how does that even make flipping sense!?!?! :huh:

[Wonderwiper]

I hear you! I am west of the GTA but most neighborhoods here are full of home daycares. I am priced with the highest at $40 but see many advertised between $20-$30. There are seriously 50 plus within reasonable driving distance from my house listed on daycare bear....then there's kijiji!!

I guess you really only have two choices:

Take your chances and raise it, hoping your clients stay.

Stay where you are and take the loss.

For the record.....I don't "need" the money to pay for essentials but I certainly think my time and effort are worth the max I can get.

[nschildcare]

Some ideas:

You are in it for the long haul? (Or at least have been, I think I remember you saying that you were going back to school...) Regardless, play up your experience. "Established in home daycare providing experienced, reliable and high quality programming blah blah blah"

It is frustrating. I charge $5 more than everyone else for FT and $10 more for PT. My prices did turn away a lot of potential clients but I did manage to fill my spots, just took some extra time. I kept thinking that this is how I want to run my program, this is what I want to offer, I deserve to be fairly compensated AND want parents who appreciate what I am offering. I don't want clients who think I charge too much ~ they are the ones who don't care what I offer. I want parents who appreciate my hard work and I also think we DO deserve to make a living just like anyone else. Venting with you I guess.

I really don't have any concrete advice other than keep playing up what makes you stand apart and above the competition. Play up the quality of food you are offering, your experience, your reliability, etc. Those that care will notice.

[Fun&care]

It's tough brightsparks...I was once one of those who charged way too low when I first started out. I did it because honestly I really did not know any better, I did not fully grasp the impact of charging 10$ less than the going rate, and I desperately wanted to fill spaces, especially that first one.

Fast forward maybe 1 or 2 years and I am now charging the going rate, 40$ per day in Ottawa. But friends of mine who are currently looking for daycare interviewed a caregiver who was charging 27$ per day and you know what? They were put off by the low rate because it seemed sketchy. And honestly I don't see how anyone can do daycare LONG TERM making so little money. It's super frustrating because it definitely impacts ALL of us but I don't see that there is much we can do.

[AmandaKDT]

Okay folks I know this is a common topic here on the forum but I'm going to bring it up once again. This is a combination of a vent and a request for advice.

I haven't raised my rates since 2012. I went from $42 ft to $43 and $43 pt to $45. Prior to this I hadn't raised my rates since 2010. It is in my contract that I raise my rates annually in January which everyone signs to acknowledge but I haven't been able to raise them due to area averages.

Well I am conscious of the fact that come January it will be 3 years since a rate increase yet costs still go up and now as someone else pointed out, minimum wage has gone up 75 cents an hour in Ontario too. I really am overdue a raise. To point out the obvious though, this wouldn't be a pay rise at all, simply a rate increase to cover the rising cost of food, utilities and supplies. Here's the thing though...

In my area, I live in a relatively small town but a lot of people commute to TO from here, 3 years ago there were only about 5 daycares advertising and the going rate was $40 a day ft and $43 part time. When I raised my rates in 2012 only one other provider put her rates up in addition to me but I could justify it due to supplying organic food. In the last 2 years at least another 10 providers come up in online searches now and the average they are charging is $30 a day. I know people constantly say that if you can justify the higher daily rate and you are worth it then go for it as people will pay for it but the reality of this is very different.

There are a huge amount of providers who are stay at home mums charging substantially less money for daycare daily who are fantastic providers. I number of them in my area also have a background in ECE and/or were teachers prior to going on their own mat leave. How the heck do I compete with that!?! Contrary to what a lot of people think and say, cheaper rates do not automatically mean mediocre care. Yes there are a bunch of them who are not even close to okay, but there are just a whole load who don't necessarily need the second income so charge less because they can and see it as some personal money to make while staying home with their own children.

Now if my phone was ringing off the hook and I was scheduling interviews left right and centre then I am sure that my daycare and experience would sell themselves but daycare enquiries are still scarce right now. In addition to that, how can I justify my rate to parents who find a good daycare provider charging 10-15 less a day? Okay so maybe they aren't as great as an established provider but how can a parent ever really know until they have experienced them. I know two providers in my town with 10+ years experience and great setups who should really not be caring for children and almost every parent I interview who have been to them prior to me, comment on how awful they are so really its not like parents know that experience means better care, or that better care is not cheap. Its never as cut and dry as that.

So what the heck do I do? I wanted to raise my rates from $45 to $47 come January but I can't fill my spots as it is, but it costs me more money annually so due to these cheapy rates that are eating through my town, I am now taking a hit to my earnings annually. I tell you what I want to do, I want to set up a home daycare association in my area and try and explain to all these cheapys the impact they are having on the local industry and that they need to charge more. My husband suggested I do this a couple of years ago but I said no as people can charge what they want as providers offer different things so justify their fee differently but now I am thinking differently as look at what has happened as a result of this mass undercutting.

I am so frustrated. I am literally only staying doing daycare because of the obvious benefits of being here for my kids who don't really need me to see them off to school or be here after school now they are older, but I compare working outside of the home and the hourly rate and cost of commuting and it still makes more sense to do this till I go to school, but every year I don't raise my rates I make less money as my costs always go up and I'm more than a little pissed off now. People working in Superstore and Food Basics make more money than me. Really how does that even make flipping sense!?!?! :huh:

Only other thing I can think of, aside from raising rates, is to cut your costs. I know you provide organic food for the daycare, but is it absolutely necessary that it all be organic? Would it be a deal breaker for your families? Or perhaps you can cut back on supplies used in some way. At the end of the day, you're doing this to provide for your own family and it has to make money.

[5 Little Monkeys]

I agree with Amanda, maybe cutting costs is a better option?

[mickyc]

I agree. You need to cut costs not increase fees. You need to remain competitive. Organic is not necessary IMO and very expensive. Maybe offer a cheaper rate if everyone supplies their own lunch?

Decrease your arts/crafts. I only do them 3 days a week instead of 5 and do a lot of coloring/drawing instead of complicated crafts that require a lot of supplies. I have also made a list of things and asked parents to donate if they had any kicking around at home (buttons, egg cartons, toilet paper rolls, milk cartons etc.)

[bright sparks]

Amanda and 5LM I think that is the route I will be going. I need to make more money but can't risk raising my rates with the current situation in my town. I have one family now who loves that I am all organic so that may be a sore spot for her but then her son leaves for school in Sept 2015 so I don't think it will be a deal breaker. Everyone else seems happy that it isn't processed foods and all home cooked. I reduced the frequency in which I take the kids out in my minivan to cut costs recently too. I would love to eliminate my van altogether as it would save me a lot, but I need to be able to be their for my own kids in an emergency should the need arise and I would not be able to do that if I didn't have a vehicle to cart all the daycare kids in. Also in the summer months while school is out I wouldn't be able to taxi my kids to their day camps so I just don't take the kids out anywhere unless absolutely necessary or if it isn't within walking distance with the stroller.

Would anyone suggest I even bring up the change in food with any daycare parents?? I feel deceitful to be honest seeing as that is one of my big selling points for daycare regardless of whether or not that one thing was why they chose me or whether it was the overall package I offer. That being said I'd hate to piss anyone off for signing up offering organic and then no longer offering it.

Thoughts??

[nschildcare]

Amanda and 5LM I think that is the route I will be going. I need to make more money but can't risk raising my rates with the current situation in my town. I have one family now who loves that I am all organic so that may be a sore spot for her but then her son leaves for school in Sept 2015 so I don't think it will be a deal breaker. Everyone else seems happy that it isn't processed foods and all home cooked. I reduced the frequency in which I take the kids out in my minivan to cut costs recently too. I would love to eliminate my van altogether as it would save me a lot, but I need to be able to be their for my own kids in an emergency should the need arise and I would not be able to do that if I didn't have a vehicle to cart all the daycare kids in. Also in the summer months while school is out I wouldn't be able to taxi my kids to their day camps so I just don't take the kids out anywhere unless absolutely necessary or if it isn't within walking distance with the stroller.

Would anyone suggest I even bring up the change in food with any daycare parents?? I feel deceitful to be honest seeing as that is one of my big selling points for daycare regardless of whether or not that one thing was why they chose me or whether it was the overall package I offer. That being said I'd hate to piss anyone off for signing up offering organic and then no longer offering it.

Thoughts??

I would tell them.

[bright sparks]

I agree. You need to cut costs not increase fees. You need to remain competitive. Organic is not necessary IMO and very expensive. Maybe offer a cheaper rate if everyone supplies their own lunch?

Decrease your arts/crafts. I only do them 3 days a week instead of 5 and do a lot of coloring/drawing instead of complicated crafts that require a lot of supplies. I have also made a list of things and asked parents to donate if they had any kicking around at home (buttons, egg cartons, toilet paper rolls, milk cartons etc.)

The thing with Organic is that just because someone thinks it isn't necessary doesn't make it so....I understand that you stated this as your opinion. It is personal preference and there will for sure be parents looking specifically for this and those who don't care about what food their child is fed. Upon research and education, most people end up coming around to it once they understand the importance of it, while for others it isn't an option due to the added cost. Organic groceries are not overly expensive anymore contrary to what you may think. I buy most of my produce in bulk too which gets my costs down a lot but obviously the elimination of organic produce all together would have a much more significant effect on my purse strings. My bulk grains cost similar to those bought from the grocery store with the added benefit of being whole grains not refined and organic. My cost of food alone is not the only issue. Fuel, Gas, hydro and water have gone up phenomenally which I can't do anything about. Obviously I know then I have to cut back wherever I can to make up for the places where I have no influence. I have a bright daycare room which means I don't need any lights on during the day and right now I don't even have big eaters.

I have such a touchy group of little ones right now who don't even like crafts apart from one. It's not even that they don't do anything but simply that they kick off screaming and crying every time. As a result I now only do crafts for monthly themes and instead do treasure baskets, sensory tubs and malleable play. Loads cheaper and I honestly haven't bought craft supplies in years.

[mickyc]

I wouldn't say anything. Do you parents actually care what their kids are being fed everyday? Mine don't. I don't post it, they never ask and I never say. Some days we eat healthier than other's, some days we don't have milk etc.

[Fun&care]

I would for sure let the parents know. Just a heads up, you don't have to make a big deal of it but if all your current clients signed on while you were offering all organic meals, I think they deserve to know that you are changing that. If they find out somehow through another source they might feel it was deceitful of you not to say anything.

I seem to have mostly families who like to know what their kids eat so if it were me I would for sure have to say something.

[bright sparks]

Some ideas:

You are in it for the long haul? (Or at least have been, I think I remember you saying that you were going back to school...) Regardless, play up your experience. "Established in home daycare providing experienced, reliable and high quality programming blah blah blah"

It is frustrating. I charge $5 more than everyone else for FT and $10 more for PT. My prices did turn away a lot of potential clients but I did manage to fill my spots, just took some extra time. I kept thinking that this is how I want to run my program, this is what I want to offer, I deserve to be fairly compensated AND want parents who appreciate what I am offering. I don't want clients who think I charge too much ~ they are the ones who don't care what I offer. I want parents who appreciate my hard work and I also think we DO deserve to make a living just like anyone else. Venting with you I guess.

I really don't have any concrete advice other than keep playing up what makes you stand apart and above the competition. Play up the quality of food you are offering, your experience, your reliability, etc. Those that care will notice.

I am applying to school right now. Initially I was going to start full time till September 2015 but may just do two years of part time studies to start so I can get into things gradually and keep working my M-Th week with just school on Fridays. Yes I could just suck it up, and likely will but it is frustrating to say the least.

[bright sparks]

I would for sure let the parents know. Just a heads up, you don't have to make a big deal of it but if all your current clients signed on while you were offering all organic meals, I think they deserve to know that you are changing that. If they find out somehow through another source they might feel it was deceitful of you not to say anything.

I seem to have mostly families who like to know what their kids eat so if it were me I would for sure have to say something.

I agree. I signed them up with a promise of certain things and for me to go back on that is one thing but to lie about it is deceitful and really says a lot about my character. Any suggestions on how to justify it and/or explain it to them?

[5 Little Monkeys]

I would let them know that in an effort to cut costs and be able to make a profit that you will be decreasing the amount of organic food but still offering as much as you can. Explain that you are taking this approach instead of raising fee's so that you are able to stay open.

I'm not huge on the organic bandwagon but I've read a handful of articles that go into detail on what items you can save money on and not buy organic. Some food just tastes better organically so I do buy a bit of those items. See if you can find a happy medium that keeps parents happy and doesn't bankrupt you.

Cutting down on other expenses will help too. For all of us that means different things. If you don't already, have you considered making your own laundry soap, hand soap, body wash, cleaning supplies? Can you cut down on cell plans, cancel tv for the summer, things like that. Keeping lights off is a good idea!

Use coupons for things you do use like condiments, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, hygiene items. If you shop at Costco know your prices, some things are awesome at Costco and some are more money. I compare to sale prices.

[bright sparks]

I would let them know that in an effort to cut costs and be able to make a profit that you will be decreasing the amount of organic food but still offering as much as you can. Explain that you are taking this approach instead of raising fee's so that you are able to stay open.

I'm not huge on the organic bandwagon but I've read a handful of articles that go into detail on what items you can save money on and not buy organic. Some food just tastes better organically so I do buy a bit of those items. See if you can find a happy medium that keeps parents happy and doesn't bankrupt you.

Cutting down on other expenses will help too. For all of us that means different things. If you don't already, have you considered making your own laundry soap, hand soap, body wash, cleaning supplies? Can you cut down on cell plans, cancel tv for the summer, things like that. Keeping lights off is a good idea!

Use coupons for things you do use like condiments, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, hygiene items. If you shop at Costco know your prices, some things are awesome at Costco and some are more money. I compare to sale prices.

I have started price matching with an app called "flip" It is so much better than paper flyers as it is very quick and something I can check if I ever go back to the store in the week for top ups or extras. In addition I have been going to superstore for everything as they price match and I also get pc points. I have 85 dollars racked up since March which makes me very happy. I have also been buying items in bulk when on sale.

I think for me this is not specifically about me being financially short, but that I feel a bit entitled, please don't judge lol. I feel I am entitled to a pay rise, let alone a rate increase just to cover inflation. I know I can cut back to make my outgoings balance this but it kinda sucks that I have to do that to make sure it doesn't end up costing me more annually to run my daycare but shouldn't that really be an added expense of the parents that childcare costs increase and that I annually make more money?? I feel like I am penny pinching and cutting back on things in my life so they can keep their pockets fuller even though their wage goes up. I am trying hard to cut back anyway to set myself up for being a one income household in the next year or two, but my ego feels very hard done to haha...there is always something though right, such is life.

[5 Little Monkeys]

We're self employed so the only time we get a raise is when we give ourselves one. Nothing wrong with that.

For me, I don't feel entitled to a yearly raise. However, that could be because I know not all my parents are at jobs that receive annual raises either. I am lucky that my expenses don't increase each year so I also don't feel the pinch as hard as some others. I grew up with a family run business and know that being self employed is hard work, long hours and can sometimes bring in less money than working for someone else. I am lucky though that my hdc is profitable and makes me more money now than at my last few jobs. It's all relative though and for each of us it will be different.

I have decided that the only time I will increase fee's is for new families and it won't be every time. Right now I increased it by $2 and it will likely stay at this rate for at least 2-5 years. However, if things ever changed and I needed more income, I would consider raising fee's or more likely, decreasing costs. Do what you feel is best for you and your business. When the market is at it's best for us, it would only make sense to increase. When the market won't allow for an increase, we have to deal with it in other ways. Owning our own business means we will always be weighing the pros and cons of staying open vs finding work out of the home.

Good luck to you in whatever decision you decide to go with! :)

[AmandaKDT]

Agree with 5 Little Monkeys - your market is not allowing for you to increase your rates so you must adjust your business to accommodate. That is one of the down sides to having your own business, but that is just how it is sometimes.

[Lee-Bee]

The thing with Organic is that just because someone thinks it isn't necessary doesn't make it so....I understand that you stated this as your opinion. It is personal preference and there will for sure be parents looking specifically for this and those who don't care about what food their child is fed. Upon research and education, most people end up coming around to it once they understand the importance of it, while for others it isn't an option due to the added cost. Organic groceries are not overly expensive anymore contrary to what you may think. I buy most of my produce in bulk too which gets my costs down a lot but obviously the elimination of organic produce all together would have a much more significant effect on my purse strings. My bulk grains cost similar to those bought from the grocery store with the added benefit of being whole grains not refined and organic. My cost of food alone is not the only issue. Fuel, Gas, hydro and water have gone up phenomenally which I can't do anything about. Obviously I know then I have to cut back wherever I can to make up for the places where I have no influence. I have a bright daycare room which means I don't need any lights on during the day and right now I don't even have big eaters.

I have such a touchy group of little ones right now who don't even like crafts apart from one. It's not even that they don't do anything but simply that they kick off screaming and crying every time. As a result I now only do crafts for monthly themes and instead do treasure baskets, sensory tubs and malleable play. Loads cheaper and I honestly haven't bought craft supplies in years.

I would mention it o the families, present your case as to why you are not going to do organic...if they see it is to prevent THEIR daily fees from rising I suspect most will be fine. The family that was keen for organic will likely be fine with their child having non-organic food for the remaining months of care. I have a vegetarian family here that is fine with their child eating meat while in my care (daily) because they realize the trade off of having their child eat meat is that their child is in a daycare that both child and family are happy with. Surely they could find a vegetarian daycare but they would just be trading off for something else. I would find it surprising if they left care so close to the start of school because of a change in food, especially if you explain the reasoning.

[bright sparks]

I would mention it o the families, present your case as to why you are not going to do organic...if they see it is to prevent THEIR daily fees from rising I suspect most will be fine. The family that was keen for organic will likely be fine with their child having non-organic food for the remaining months of care. I have a vegetarian family here that is fine with their child eating meat while in my care (daily) because they realize the trade off of having their child eat meat is that their child is in a daycare that both child and family are happy with. Surely they could find a vegetarian daycare but they would just be trading off for something else. I would find it surprising if they left care so close to the start of school because of a change in food, especially if you explain the reasoning.

Wow! There is a significant difference in eating organic or conventionally grown versus being a vegetarian and eating meat at daycare. Why would they need an exclusively vegetarian daycare to accommodate vegetarian meals? It's not hard to accommodate that in the slightest or have the parent send food. Sorry going off topic but I just find that alarming!!

[Momof4]

Bright Sparks, I also serve mostly organic produce and sometimes organic breads, bagels, nacho chips, rice, pasta, etc. But I draw the line when the prices are too expensive for me. I advertise myself as a PARTIALLY organic daycare and make no promises. Can you do that? For instance, I'm not going to pay $4 for a green pepper! But the parents know that all my food is cooked from scratch, very little is prepackaged (breads), so they are all happy and I don't have to explain what is and what isn't organic.

[bright sparks]

Bright Sparks, I also serve mostly organic produce and sometimes organic breads, bagels, nacho chips, rice, pasta, etc. But I draw the line when the prices are too expensive for me. I advertise myself as a PARTIALLY organic daycare and make no promises. Can you do that? For instance, I'm not going to pay $4 for a green pepper! But the parents know that all my food is cooked from scratch, very little is prepackaged (breads), so they are all happy and I don't have to explain what is and what isn't organic.

This is pretty much what I changed it to when I took on my last lot, so November to now. I state on my website that all food served is Organic and ABF when available and nothing processed. When I am face to face I also explain that sometimes especially in the winter that organic produce is so much more expensive so then I will limit my organic purchases using my best judgement....followi ng the dirty dozen list. For example, in the summer we have lots of variety but in the winter months I will end up just buying more of the same fruit for the week because it was on sale bringing the cost to the regular summer pricing. I think if I was to eliminate organic all together then I'd see a saving but otherwise not enough to make me see more than a few dollars a month. Non organic goes against the grain with me. It's not a fad or something to be taken lightly like some people think. Once you are educated on the goings on of conventional food and how it's grown or how the animal is raised, and you learn the devastating impact this can have on the body, most people with any sense change their tune. I obviously could continue feeding my family organic and just change the daycare food but it will take some adjusting my mentality but if that's what it takes, I can still try my best to buy the best quality conventional product and seek out the organic sales that price both options as equal.

[bright sparks]

Agree with 5 Little Monkeys - your market is not allowing for you to increase your rates so you must adjust your business to accommodate. That is one of the down sides to having your own business, but that is just how it is sometimes.

I love that
you must adjust your business to accommodateso true. Thing is you make it sound so easy. I'm sure that giving the daycare families this explanation wouldn't gain their understanding though as adjusting my business means taking something away from their program.

[5 Little Monkeys]

If it were me I would either

A. Keep rates the same but cut back on the organic groceries or

B. keep rates the same and ask parents to supply lunch and either supply the snacks or ask parents to supply that too ( it would be interesting to see who sends organic meals now that it's on them)

I would explain the reason for the change being that you are no longer making a profit and in order to stay in business without raising the fee this is what you have to do. I'm willing to bet most parents will be fine with either decision so long as it doesn't affect their daily fee.

There are disadvantages to parents supplying the food but you have to decide if they are worse than not making a profit.

[Fun&care]

I also advertise as partially organic. Which is nice because it is pretty open to interpretation. Sometimes I buy a LOT of organic produce, sometimes very little. I understand it's hard to change your mentality on stuff like this...There is a lot of info on the net these days about conventionally raised food and how crappy it is and once you get on the organic bandwagon it's very hard to get off because it feels almost unethical. I really feel for you for having to make a tough choice like this because I know it's not easy. I honestly think you can absolutely continue with organic for your family and buy conventional for daycare. As much as it might be difficult for you to wrap your head around at first, at the end of the day how many of these families eat organic at home and if it's really important then maybe they can have the option to send a lunch.

[Lee-Bee]

Wow! There is a significant difference in eating organic or conventionally grown versus being a vegetarian and eating meat at daycare. Why would they need an exclusively vegetarian daycare to accommodate vegetarian meals? It's not hard to accommodate that in the slightest or have the parent send food. Sorry going off topic but I just find that alarming!!

As easy as it seems to skip out on the meat for a vegetarian child I don't think it is THAT easy. For one the meat is a huge source of protein and if I just cut it out the child is now left with starch and veggies everyday. A vegetarian incorporates other sources of protein in place of meat in their diet to compensate for the lack of meat. In addition a LARGE amount of my meals are made in the crock pot...so even the starch and veggies are soaked in meat juices for hours :-) It's hard to get around the meat when cooked like that!! Obviously the family isn't so hard core vegetarian that their child having meat here is an issue.

I wasn't so much comparing organic to meat/vegetarianism but to point out that a lot of families are comfortable flexing on some issues to keep their child in quality care. Therefore I don't think informing a family that is keen for organic meals will result in pulling a child out of care.

I wouldn't have signed the family on if they wanted to send their own meals to avoid meat. I would possibly (possibly) consider doing it for a family that has been in care for a long time and needed to suddenly change their child's diet for health reasons...but I have no desire to start serving different children, different foods.

[bright sparks]

As easy as it seems to skip out on the meat for a vegetarian child I don't think it is THAT easy. For one the meat is a huge source of protein and if I just cut it out the child is now left with starch and veggies everyday. A vegetarian incorporates other sources of protein in place of meat in their diet to compensate for the lack of meat. In addition a LARGE amount of my meals are made in the crock pot...so even the starch and veggies are soaked in meat juices for hours :-) It's hard to get around the meat when cooked like that!! Obviously the family isn't so hard core vegetarian that their child having meat here is an issue.

I wasn't so much comparing organic to meat/vegetarianism but to point out that a lot of families are comfortable flexing on some issues to keep their child in quality care. Therefore I don't think informing a family that is keen for organic meals will result in pulling a child out of care.

I wouldn't have signed the family on if they wanted to send their own meals to avoid meat. I would possibly (possibly) consider doing it for a family that has been in care for a long time and needed to suddenly change their child's diet for health reasons...but I have no desire to start serving different children, different foods.

My son has been vegetarian for nearly three years and I know first hand how easy it is to make veggie meals. It's not about eliminating meat but replacing it. I understand that if you make everything in the crockpot then this really isn't feasible but it's not impossible just obviously personal preference to what a person wants to do. I cook in bulk and in advance so really it's not a daily issue to cook two meals, and I make veggie meals a number of nights a week for all of us regardless of being veggie or not. What are people thinking saying they are vegetarian but they will eat meat if it means they get a daycare spot. Jeez that's nuts!!

[bright sparks]

I also advertise as partially organic. Which is nice because it is pretty open to interpretation. Sometimes I buy a LOT of organic produce, sometimes very little. I understand it's hard to change your mentality on stuff like this...There is a lot of info on the net these days about conventionally raised food and how crappy it is and once you get on the organic bandwagon it's very hard to get off because it feels almost unethical. I really feel for you for having to make a tough choice like this because I know it's not easy. I honestly think you can absolutely continue with organic for your family and buy conventional for daycare. As much as it might be difficult for you to wrap your head around at first, at the end of the day how many of these families eat organic at home and if it's really important then maybe they can have the option to send a lunch.

I love the way you have out this. It's exactly how I feel. It feels unethical for sure and hypocritical. I think once I've done it for a period of time it will become easier. Thanks for your understanding :)

[5 Little Monkeys]

Bright, do you follow the dirty dozen, clean 15 list? If not, might be a good place to start the decrease of organic produce.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/600x/9d/7f/ba/9d7fbaf3a41b863bc6b3 f86ad33b3752.jpg

[mickyc]

I am curious - do you know for sure that your families all eat only organic foods at home?

Here is my thoughts - when I first started my daycare I tried the healthy foods, followed the Canada food guide etc. what a crock!! Kids don't eat that much (my kids anyways). I was wasting so much food and half the time all the kids were fed at home was KD and hot dogs anyways!! (ok not really but you get what I am saying). I decided I wasn't going to stress so much over it anymore. We eat fruit/vegies for morning snack, sometimes yogurt. We eat basics like Noodles/cheese or meat sauce, grilled cheese, KD, hot dogs, hamburgers, pancakes, different sandwiches, pizza, sausage/hashbrowns, chicken fingers/fries etc. Sometimes I throw some vegies on their plates, sometimes I don't. Afternoon snacks are usually cookies, granola bar, pudding, rice cakes, popsicles (now that we can eat snack outside). Some days we have milk but most days it is just water. Heck today we had corn dogs for lunch (kids love them by the way!). I personally don't know how you have the time/energy to cook from scratch and in all honesty I am not a great cook to start with. I feed my family a great deal of produce (we juice and do a lot of smoothies). I try to make things homemade when I can but don't beat myself up when I don't. I have yet had any parent complain about what their child eats here and I don't have to fight with kids to eat what I serve for the most part. I actually never have any parents ask what we have eaten nor do I post it for them to see.

I just wonder if your families are taking advantage of the fact that you feed organic knowing the costs or do they actually buy it for themselves?

[Secondtimearound]

I started out with the greatest of intentions of feeding nutritious , homemade meals . I made it a big part of my advertising as well ! But after spending months of throwing away and wasting food and money , I adjusted my menu plan .
I agree with you that you should inform parents of your changes , but my spin would be a newsletter with an upbeat theme ! Like due to raising costs instead of raising rates you will be keeping costs down by the following ...
I think parents understand and I think they will appreciate it !!
Very few kids are being raised on total organic foods ! I know most of mine are def not ! My homemade Mac and cheese was not appreciated in the least !! What did they want ? Yup gross kd !! My dd , who had never tasted kd until I served it here now asks , yours or the dayhome Mac and cheese ? Ugh !!
I think things change , people get that !

[bright sparks]

I am curious - do you know for sure that your families all eat only organic foods at home?

Here is my thoughts - when I first started my daycare I tried the healthy foods, followed the Canada food guide etc. what a crock!! Kids don't eat that much (my kids anyways). I was wasting so much food and half the time all the kids were fed at home was KD and hot dogs anyways!! (ok not really but you get what I am saying). I decided I wasn't going to stress so much over it anymore. We eat fruit/vegies for morning snack, sometimes yogurt. We eat basics like Noodles/cheese or meat sauce, grilled cheese, KD, hot dogs, hamburgers, pancakes, different sandwiches, pizza, sausage/hashbrowns, chicken fingers/fries etc. Sometimes I throw some vegies on their plates, sometimes I don't. Afternoon snacks are usually cookies, granola bar, pudding, rice cakes, popsicles (now that we can eat snack outside). Some days we have milk but most days it is just water. Heck today we had corn dogs for lunch (kids love them by the way!). I personally don't know how you have the time/energy to cook from scratch and in all honesty I am not a great cook to start with. I feed my family a great deal of produce (we juice and do a lot of smoothies). I try to make things homemade when I can but don't beat myself up when I don't. I have yet had any parent complain about what their child eats here and I don't have to fight with kids to eat what I serve for the most part. I actually never have any parents ask what we have eaten nor do I post it for them to see.

I just wonder if your families are taking advantage of the fact that you feed organic knowing the costs or do they actually buy it for themselves?

I'm sure you don't get any protesting when they are fed such high sugar, salt and fat foods but honestly while this is my opinion I don't hold it against anyone. I used to eat like that and it didn't make me a bad person, just not very healthy. I have never had a fussy eater in my daycare unless it is because a parent has fed junk food and the child has protested when in my care. That doesn't last long as healthy food and fresh food tastes so much better than processed foods. The Canada food guide is unhealthy and wrong, period, so if anyone follows that it is a disservice to the children. Get educated people, seriously!! I also don't feed the kids healthy food to please the parents I do it because it is undeniably what is best for the kids. I don't cook daily. I cook once every 9 weeks. I have a 3 week menu and with the quantity I cook per recipe it makes enough for each meal three times for a group of 5 good eaters. I tray everything up cook it, cool it and then freeze everything. Food comes out the freezer the night before and is reheated in the oven during the day for lunch. I am sure cutting out the organic and moving to conventional but still unprocessed will make a difference in my pocket but I pride myself on not serving processed foods and with just a little bit of time and research, cooking healthy CAN be affordable. It's all about priorities and personal preference. While others don't think it matters to eat healthy whole foods, I know it does.

[bright sparks]

I started out with the greatest of intentions of feeding nutritious , homemade meals . I made it a big part of my advertising as well ! But after spending months of throwing away and wasting food and money , I adjusted my menu plan .
I agree with you that you should inform parents of your changes , but my spin would be a newsletter with an upbeat theme ! Like due to raising costs instead of raising rates you will be keeping costs down by the following ...
I think parents understand and I think they will appreciate it !!
Very few kids are being raised on total organic foods ! I know most of mine are def not ! My homemade Mac and cheese was not appreciated in the least !! What did they want ? Yup gross kd !! My dd , who had never tasted kd until I served it here now asks , yours or the dayhome Mac and cheese ? Ugh !!
I think things change , people get that !

I like the idea of an upbeat newsletter as a way of informing people. I can't understand why you and other providers are wasting so much food. If the children are given no other option then they will eventually eat what is given and their taste buds will adapt. If after a few days of feeling defeat and giving the children crap instead, then of course things aren't going to change. Its like weaning all over again. Over my dead body will I feed any child KD. Pretty sure its not even real food

[bright sparks]

Hmmm, I want to just clarify that while this thread is about countering the fact that I cant increase my rates to reflect the increase in cost of running my daycare, and everyone has come up with some great ideas most specifically surrounding the cost of organic foods, I find myself feeling a little defensive to the comments people have made surrounding how unnecessary organic food is. I don't want to get into a defensive mode about this, but I already have lol....I feel strongly about the topic as I have taken the time to educate myself through multiple sources over an extended period of time. My choice to serve organic produce is an educated decision not one based on media hype one way or the other that it is good or a waste of time but actual fact based evidence.That's not really where I wanted this thread to go but such is life on a forum. I get that threads go in this direction but I want to just address that we can have completely different opinions about the organic produce as to whether it is worth doing or not but its irrelevant. It's about income and expenses so if I eliminate organic food its because I need to get my expenses down but does not mean that the kids do not need it or deserve it. I have made some strong comments regarding this which I won't apologize for, but hopefully knowing where I am coming from, those who do not see things the same can express things in a way to not criticize a choice that I made that is proven to be a good one. I try to comment with respect on here but understand that strong opinions can be interpreted on here incorrectly and I wanted to acknowledge this.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Bright.....I respect your decision to want to exclusively feed/provide organic food. That is entirely your choice. I have not done as much research as you but I have read some articles and know that there are some items that the experts say you can buy non organically and still be eating healthy. That is why I posted the link for you on page 3. I understand that you don't necessarily want to buy non organic items but out of a need to cut costs you may want to start with those. I was briefly reading an article last night on a study that found organic food isn't better in health and nutrients but obviously better in regard to pesticides and antibiotics. I didn't read the whole study though. As I have said before, I don't believe in needing to eat and buy organic exclusively but can for sure agree that there are benefits!! (health wise and taste wise)

I think everyone knows that eating lots of fruits and veggies, little to no processed food and making things by scratch is the best health wise but it's not always possible due to time and money. I think it's great that you are so passionate about eating healthy, I wish I had more of that ambition. I try my best to serve healthy foods but I don't stress if they eat "crap" once in awhile while in my care. (I know I should care more, especially because I am overweight and don't want them to get on the wrong track so early) but I try my best and at the end of the day, I am okay with that.

[bright sparks]

Bright.....I respect your decision to want to exclusively feed/provide organic food. That is entirely your choice. I have not done as much research as you but I have read some articles and know that there are some items that the experts say you can buy non organically and still be eating healthy. That is why I posted the link for you on page 3. I understand that you don't necessarily want to buy non organic items but out of a need to cut costs you may want to start with those. I was briefly reading an article last night on a study that found organic food isn't better in health and nutrients but obviously better in regard to pesticides and antibiotics. I didn't read the whole study though. As I have said before, I don't believe in needing to eat and buy organic exclusively but can for sure agree that there are benefits!! (health wise and taste wise)

I think everyone knows that eating lots of fruits and veggies, little to no processed food and making things by scratch is the best health wise but it's not always possible due to time and money. I think it's great that you are so passionate about eating healthy, I wish I had more of that ambition. I try my best to serve healthy foods but I don't stress if they eat "crap" once in awhile while in my care. (I know I should care more, especially because I am overweight and don't want them to get on the wrong track so early) but I try my best and at the end of the day, I am okay with that.

I hear ya. We have crap occasionally and love to eat out too and honestly I think that is fine as long as it isn't the bulk of a persons diet. I take issue with the kids eating processed foods while in my care because I don't believe it is what's best for them and goes against my principles of what childcare is about. We do have an occasional ice cream sandwich in the summer and pizza too but I try to think outside the box and make healthy versions too. Eating organic also guarantees non gmo which is where you will find that organic foods are much more nutritionally dense than conventional. There are certain foods that I buy organic not just for the spraying but also the gmo aspect. For example, almost 100% of corn produced in Canada is GMO. It is near dammed impossible to find organic corn in this country. I can totally back this info up if people wish. Research GMO's and it will scare your pants off. I'm not denying that they have for sure helped in hunger crisis' around the world but now we are dealing with the disastrous aftermath. It is a fascinating topic. Also the difference between the benefits of organic fruit and veg and then meat and grains is different. Organic meat is a big deal although chicken is not as big a deal because of the strict laws surrounding antibiotics and poultry in Ontario. All chicken in Ontario is ABF.

I am going to do a newsletter up as someone else suggested and am going to eliminate organic from my daycare. I am going to only buy conventional fruit and veg from the clean list and I'm gonna get over myself....still going to be a healthy minimally processed meal plan for the kiddos and at the same time reduce my expenses a little. Doesn't change my opinion on Organics but seems like the most logical place to start adjusting my business practices to put myself first.

[Fun&care]

This conversation has definitely gone a little off topic. I don't understand what is so difficult about serving healthy food. If you feel that food is being wasted because kids aren't eating then SERVE LESS. Then pack up the rest for tomorrow's lunch. Cooking from scratch is easy once you have a few recipes and you cook in BULK so you can freeze some for later. If the kids still won't eat what you serve then tough. Honestly as long as they are growing normally and there is no cause for concern it's on them whether they eat or not that day. I stopped caring about how much the kids eat but I don't think I see myself ever ceasing to care about WHAT they eat. I've had quite a few interviews too where ppl left their previous provider because they found out that she served KD and hot dogs...I cringe at the thought of serving foods like that to kids. And I don't even think that cost is as big of a deal as ppl make it yet it's always the first excuse they throw out there. And I certainly don't claim to be perfect either, I eat out and I love pizza too but that is only a small part of my diet.

[bright sparks]

This conversation has definitely gone a little off topic. I don't understand what is so difficult about serving healthy food. If you feel that food is being wasted because kids aren't eating then SERVE LESS. Then pack up the rest for tomorrow's lunch. Cooking from scratch is easy once you have a few recipes and you cook in BULK so you can freeze some for later. If the kids still won't eat what you serve then tough. Honestly as long as they are growing normally and there is no cause for concern it's on them whether they eat or not that day. I stopped caring about how much the kids eat but I don't think I see myself ever ceasing to care about WHAT they eat. I've had quite a few interviews too where ppl left their previous provider because they found out that she served KD and hot dogs...I cringe at the thought of serving foods like that to kids. And I certainly don't claim to be perfect either, I suppose we all have different views on food so to each their own but I felt I had to put in my own two cents.

I agree completely

[Lee-Bee]

I'm sure you don't get any protesting when they are fed such high sugar, salt and fat foods but honestly while this is my opinion I don't hold it against anyone. I used to eat like that and it didn't make me a bad person, just not very healthy. I have never had a fussy eater in my daycare unless it is because a parent has fed junk food and the child has protested when in my care. That doesn't last long as healthy food and fresh food tastes so much better than processed foods. The Canada food guide is unhealthy and wrong, period, so if anyone follows that it is a disservice to the children. Get educated people, seriously!! I also don't feed the kids healthy food to please the parents I do it because it is undeniably what is best for the kids. I don't cook daily. I cook once every 9 weeks. I have a 3 week menu and with the quantity I cook per recipe it makes enough for each meal three times for a group of 5 good eaters. I tray everything up cook it, cool it and then freeze everything. Food comes out the freezer the night before and is reheated in the oven during the day for lunch. I am sure cutting out the organic and moving to conventional but still unprocessed will make a difference in my pocket but I pride myself on not serving processed foods and with just a little bit of time and research, cooking healthy CAN be affordable. It's all about priorities and personal preference. While others don't think it matters to eat healthy whole foods, I know it does.

I wish I was organized enough to cook once every 9 weeks!! I used to cook in large batches and freeze but with the daycare now I don't really do that. My system is that today during afternoon nap I prep a meal which is tonight's supper and tomorrow's lunch. I also make tomorrow's morning snack which is omelettes, French toast or the like.

I am lucky in that all my kiddos eat healthy at home and started here at 12months so they eat what they are served (for the most part) without any tantrums. If they really don't want it they just eat the other foods out and deal with it until next meal. I'm sure this is MUCH harder if the kids start at a later age with different eating patterns set! I serve cabbage rolls, stews, roasts, lots of beans and lots veggies. I make a point of consistently serving the veggies that they may not otherwise be exposed to (that we also eat here regularly) such as eggplant, mushrooms, swiss chard etc. I figure if they are tasting it now and seeing it regularly they may be more likely as adults to choose to eat such foods even if they may not see them at home through the rest of their childhood (plus my daughter and I like it and eat it at lunch).

I do have a lot of wasted food...but that comes with having five 13-18month olds self feed. I give small portions and many seconds. I scrub the floor after each meal and yes, I will pick up the food they drop up and reserve it (to the child that dropped it). They lick the floor and toys anyways so why should food be thrown out if it briefly touches?

I might try and get my act together to do the big cook off days and freeze meals so I can free up some nap times. But...it is nice to make the food daily and have a good supper ready at the end of the day.

We eat out every Friday night since I don't have to have lunch prepared for the next day and as a reward of not having to cook that afternoon.

[bright sparks]

I wish I was organized enough to cook once every 9 weeks!! I used to cook in large batches and freeze but with the daycare now I don't really do that. My system is that today during afternoon nap I prep a meal which is tonight's supper and tomorrow's lunch. I also make tomorrow's morning snack which is omelettes, French toast or the like.

I am lucky in that all my kiddos eat healthy at home and started here at 12months so they eat what they are served (for the most part) without any tantrums. If they really don't want it they just eat the other foods out and deal with it until next meal. I'm sure this is MUCH harder if the kids start at a later age with different eating patterns set! I serve cabbage rolls, stews, roasts, lots of beans and lots veggies. I make a point of consistently serving the veggies that they may not otherwise be exposed to (that we also eat here regularly) such as eggplant, mushrooms, swiss chard etc. I figure if they are tasting it now and seeing it regularly they may be more likely as adults to choose to eat such foods even if they may not see them at home through the rest of their childhood (plus my daughter and I like it and eat it at lunch).

I do have a lot of wasted food...but that comes with having five 13-18month olds self feed. I give small portions and many seconds. I scrub the floor after each meal and yes, I will pick up the food they drop up and reserve it (to the child that dropped it). They lick the floor and toys anyways so why should food be thrown out if it briefly touches?

I might try and get my act together to do the big cook off days and freeze meals so I can free up some nap times. But...it is nice to make the food daily and have a good supper ready at the end of the day.

We eat out every Friday night since I don't have to have lunch prepared for the next day and as a reward of not having to cook that afternoon.

The big cook is a huge task for sure but I do not want to cook an additional meal daily on top of my family's dinner. Maybe because I cook everything from scratch its not like I ever just throw something in the oven from the freezer or a can so I just don't want to be bothered cooking more often than I need too. I am English so roasts and stews are also a regular meal item in my house too. I do a roast every cycle as its cheap to make it go a long way and that is the one meal that I usually have even more of so gets frozen for my meals too. I make curries, goulash and gumbo regularly as they are very popular once the kids pallets adapt. I think its great the approach you take with the veggies so the kids get exposed to all sorts of things. regular veg in our house are collards, swiss chard and spinach. I have a child with dairy allergies so I never cook with cheese now which sucks so I add collards into everything, and I mean everything, so they get more than enough daily calcium....they are actually a far superior source than dairy anyway. I bake loaves in bulk too and once cooled I slice and wrap individually in plastic wrap and just pull out what I need daily. My loaves are jam packed with whole grains, dietary fibre and fruit and veg. Having an egg allergy in the house also restricts my meals. Oh my goodness I can't believe the rapid increase of allergies and intolerances....did you know that allergies start in the gut? That is why it is SO important that we put good food into these precious children's bodies otherwise its going to keep getting worse.

[Wonderwiper]

I think it would be fine to send out a message saying something along the lines of trying to keep fees down and keeping organic seasonally or when not cost prohibitive. Keeping as clean and green as you can!!!!

[Lee-Bee]

The big cook is a huge task for sure but I do not want to cook an additional meal daily on top of my family's dinner. Maybe because I cook everything from scratch its not like I ever just throw something in the oven from the freezer or a can so I just don't want to be bothered cooking more often than I need too. I am English so roasts and stews are also a regular meal item in my house too. I do a roast every cycle as its cheap to make it go a long way and that is the one meal that I usually have even more of so gets frozen for my meals too. I make curries, goulash and gumbo regularly as they are very popular once the kids pallets adapt. I think its great the approach you take with the veggies so the kids get exposed to all sorts of things. regular veg in our house are collards, swiss chard and spinach. I have a child with dairy allergies so I never cook with cheese now which sucks so I add collards into everything, and I mean everything, so they get more than enough daily calcium....they are actually a far superior source than dairy anyway. I bake loaves in bulk too and once cooled I slice and wrap individually in plastic wrap and just pull out what I need daily. My loaves are jam packed with whole grains, dietary fibre and fruit and veg. Having an egg allergy in the house also restricts my meals. Oh my goodness I can't believe the rapid increase of allergies and intolerances....did you know that allergies start in the gut? That is why it is SO important that we put good food into these precious children's bodies otherwise its going to keep getting worse.

I will look into collards. My 14 month old daughter is still dairy intolerant. When I use cheese I just divide up the meal for the daycare kids and then leave the dairy off ours but we pretty much do without dairy in the main meals for the most part. I still breastfeed to ensure she is meeting the protein/fats requirements. She is young enough that I can easily give her a different milk and yogurt than the others so the other kids get their dairy intake.

[bright sparks]

I will look into collards. My 14 month old daughter is still dairy intolerant. When I use cheese I just divide up the meal for the daycare kids and then leave the dairy off ours but we pretty much do without dairy in the main meals for the most part. I still breastfeed to ensure she is meeting the protein/fats requirements. She is young enough that I can easily give her a different milk and yogurt than the others so the other kids get their dairy intake.

Collards are super tasty and have more benefits than dairy not just calcium and all without the bad stuff.

[bright sparks]

I think it would be fine to send out a message saying something along the lines of trying to keep fees down and keeping organic seasonally or when not cost prohibitive. Keeping as clean and green as you can!!!!

Great....love the wording!!

[mickyc]

bright sparks - first of all I want to say I think it is great you feed your family and daycare kids all organic. I just wouldn't be doing it if it was costing me a pile of money.

The thing is those of us that don't aren't bad providers or bad people. Yes I do serve a lot of processed foods but there are a lot of fresh items as well (fruit/vegies). I am trying to change my ways but growing up my diet consisted of macaroni and ground beef most days. I myself have never tried a variety of different foods and would be considered a picky eater by most. I don't cook something I wouldn't myself eat and I don't even know what to do with majority of it (and if I try it usually turns into a disaster - just ask my husband lol). I am trying and thanks to pinterest have lots of ideas to choose from.

Good luck with cutting back on your expenses. Like I also suggested before this all turned into an organic food issue what about cutting back on crafts etc.

[bright sparks]

bright sparks - first of all I want to say I think it is great you feed your family and daycare kids all organic. I just wouldn't be doing it if it was costing me a pile of money.

The thing is those of us that don't aren't bad providers or bad people. Yes I do serve a lot of processed foods but there are a lot of fresh items as well (fruit/vegies). I am trying to change my ways but growing up my diet consisted of macaroni and ground beef most days. I myself have never tried a variety of different foods and would be considered a picky eater by most. I don't cook something I wouldn't myself eat and I don't even know what to do with majority of it (and if I try it usually turns into a disaster - just ask my husband lol). I am trying and thanks to pinterest have lots of ideas to choose from.

Good luck with cutting back on your expenses. Like I also suggested before this all turned into an organic food issue what about cutting back on crafts etc.

I actually responded to the comment about crafting. Due to my group being so nuts whenever I craft I only craft for themed holidays...I'm sure this will change shortly as they stop screaming constantly but even then I wont save any money as I have enough craft supplies stock piled to last me a good 5 years or more. I do sensory buckets and treasure baskets which I have had for years and don't cost anything and as I have a variety of them they are rotated and varied enough that I don't need to buy more stuff for them.

[Fun&care]

bright sparks - first of all I want to say I think it is great you feed your family and daycare kids all organic. I just wouldn't be doing it if it was costing me a pile of money.

The thing is those of us that don't aren't bad providers or bad people..

Of course you are not bad ppl but as a childcare providers it is our job to provide adequate nutrition. I find it frustrating because there is SO much info nowadays and so many recipes you can find online that there are just no excuses. As childcare providers we are held ( or should be) to a higher standard because we are SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING and serving healthy food just seems so basic to me as far as childcare goes...no matter what the parents are doing at home because I'm not sure why this is ever an acceptable excuse for anything anyways. I'm frustrated because too many times I've had interviews with parents who have nightmare stories of providers who serve a lot of junk and you can tell these parents are weary of choosing home daycare for this reason so it does affect all of us in the end by giving home daycares a bad name. We all know how easily the public can lump us together. Phew vent over

[JennJubie]

Of course you are not bad ppl but as a childcare providers it is our job to provide adequate nutrition. I find it frustrating because there is SO much info nowadays and so many recipes you can find online that there are just no excuses. As childcare providers we are held ( or should be) to a higher standard because we are SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING and serving healthy food just seems so basic to me as far as childcare goes...no matter what the parents are doing at home because I'm not sure why this is ever an acceptable excuse for anything anyways. I'm frustrated because too many times I've had interviews with parents who have nightmare stories of providers who serve a lot of junk and you can tell these parents are weary of choosing home daycare for this reason so it does affect all of us in the end by giving home daycares a bad name. We all know how easily the public can lump us together. Phew vent over

I agree. With planning it's not hard to feed the kids healthy meals at all. I don't have a set menu schedule right now, but I keep a white board by the door so that at drop off and pick up they can see what we are eating that day. The parents that I have care very much what their children are eating.

[mickyc]

The thing is - what you consider healthy and others consider healthy can be two different things. Today for example we had strawberries for morning snack. For lunch today we had perogies/sour cream with a tray of carrots/broccoli/celery with ranch to dip on the side. I make sure all kids have vegies. I have a bag of mini rice cakes for afternoon snack. It isn't like I feed them KD daily but I see nothing wrong with having KD on occasion (usually once a month).

[AmandaKDT]

I hear ya. We have crap occasionally and love to eat out too and honestly I think that is fine as long as it isn't the bulk of a persons diet. I take issue with the kids eating processed foods while in my care because I don't believe it is what's best for them and goes against my principles of what childcare is about. We do have an occasional ice cream sandwich in the summer and pizza too but I try to think outside the box and make healthy versions too. Eating organic also guarantees non gmo which is where you will find that organic foods are much more nutritionally dense than conventional. There are certain foods that I buy organic not just for the spraying but also the gmo aspect. For example, almost 100% of corn produced in Canada is GMO. It is near dammed impossible to find organic corn in this country. I can totally back this info up if people wish. Research GMO's and it will scare your pants off. I'm not denying that they have for sure helped in hunger crisis' around the world but now we are dealing with the disastrous aftermath. It is a fascinating topic. Also the difference between the benefits of organic fruit and veg and then meat and grains is different. Organic meat is a big deal although chicken is not as big a deal because of the strict laws surrounding antibiotics and poultry in Ontario. All chicken in Ontario is ABF.

I am going to do a newsletter up as someone else suggested and am going to eliminate organic from my daycare. I am going to only buy conventional fruit and veg from the clean list and I'm gonna get over myself....still going to be a healthy minimally processed meal plan for the kiddos and at the same time reduce my expenses a little. Doesn't change my opinion on Organics but seems like the most logical place to start adjusting my business practices to put myself first.

Very much off topic but I made a "pizza" the other day using spaghetti squash as the crust. It was actually really delicious!! Just google "spaghetti squash pizza crust". It doesn't feel like you are missing out on anything to eat this instead of regular pizza.

[dodge__driver11]

I agree with Micky C in a lot of different areas.

1.. While I understand Brights desire to serve healthy food, I do not advertise serving organic food..... But I make every effort to incorporate things like farm eggs, farmers market veggies, locally made foods, and or fruit truck produce when available and cost effective...Differen t providers do different things, and good on em, but at this time an all organic daycare does not work for me. I too have no problem serving KD, or hotdogs, esp. during the bbq season, or lets face it, when cashflow is a bit tight that week.

2. I make it very clear to parents not to expect a daily craft home, but rather to understand that the kids are having fun learning social skills, and life skills. When I talk to them they often tell me that their child will say things like..".Oh mom we have to respect each other's space", or "we walk we don't run. "

3. As far as vacation and what not, I do what's normal for my area, its as simple as that... I may test the waters a bit when I have been around a while, but for sure not within the first one or 2 years.


(have no idea where that space is coming from)

[JennJubie]

1.. While I understand Brights desire to serve healthy food, I do not advertise serving organic food..... But I make every effort to incorporate things like farm eggs, farmers market veggies, locally made foods, and or fruit truck produce when available and cost effective...Differen t providers do different things, and good on em, but at this time an all organic daycare does not work for me. I too have no problem serving KD, or hotdogs, esp. during the bbq season, or lets face it, when cashflow is a bit tight that week.



When I said healthy, I meant along these lines. I also do not advertise an organic menu. But I do my best. I occasionally serve KD and I have served hot dogs a few times, but for the most part I work hard to make sure that the kids are fed very well. I serve them the same foods that I would feed my own family, and the parents have always been happy with what I am serving.

[superfun]

This may be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer and this seems like the right place to ask it. Everyone seems to agree that hot dogs are bad. No argument from me there, I haven't ever served these as a daycare food. If I was to buy the hot dogs that have ingredients that I recognize, and nothing weird and gross, are these as bad as no name hot dogs? It seems like when I read the ingredients on a package of walmart hot dogs, it seems so obvious that it is bad. But when I read a Maple Leaf package, all it says is "pork (or chicken), sea salt (i think?) and something about celery?
I want to be clear, this is for my own family, for camping or bbq nights, now that the weather is nice. I post my meals every day, and 2 of the 3 families read it, and they appreciate that the kids eat healthy here.

[5 Little Monkeys]

I serve foods along the lines of Jenn and dodge by the sounds of it. I give fruit at almost every meal and snack but I need to get better at serving veggies. My kids have always ate veggies in stews, soups, chilis, etc but I have only ever had one who liked them raw. I don't serve veggies with dip but may try serving it with hummus or something like that.

Superfun, I am not sure if hot dogs are ever really "healthy" but nothing beats a hot dog cooked over the bonfire....go on and splurge!! lol :) Crap food in moderation isn't the devil....IMO haha

Other ways to save money....

1. Do you supply the sunscreen? If you do, can you ask the parents to start or to at least pay for what you buy (I ask this because I just buy it out of pocket...well not really. I feel my fee covers it)

2. Do you buy/make gifts for special occasions? If you do, can you cut those out? (again, I ask because I do a lot of gifts and if I needed to save money this would be one of the first things I would cut out)

[mickyc]

personally I see nothing wrong with serving hot dogs to daycare kids. I don't check labels either, I look at the cost. We only eat it once a month so I don't see the big deal.

If you want to eat hot dogs and serve them to your family then go for it. Sometimes I think people worry too much about this sort of stuff. Pick foods that have ingredients you recognize, try to incorporate lots of fruits and vegies and don't beat yourself up if you eat things that aren't so go like hot dogs!

[dodge__driver11]

My kids love raw veggies, and fresh fruit. (I trick em though lol) I serve my fruit with whipping cream (the thick cream that you whip, not the oil based product) and my veggies with humus or veggies dips/melted cream cheese....yummers.

[superfun]

I never used to read ingredients on everything. When my youngest daughter needed to be gluten free, the label reading started. And then the desire to not have to read labels led to me cutting out as much processed food as I could. And now when I read labels, I find it overwhelming how much non-food stuff is in my food. So now I read labels, cook from scratch (still learning though, my meals are pretty basic) but I still crave some of my old ways, like hot dogs when I'm lazy. haha

[bright sparks]

The thing is - what you consider healthy and others consider healthy can be two different things.

It is one thing to have a personal perspective different to another person but what is healthy and what isn't healthy is not opinion, it is backed up by research and fact. Processed foods like hot dogs and nuggets are unhealthy, that is fact. If another person doesn't agree that they are unhealthy, they are still unhealthy and that person is just wrong.

[bright sparks]

Very much off topic but I made a "pizza" the other day using spaghetti squash as the crust. It was actually really delicious!! Just google "spaghetti squash pizza crust". It doesn't feel like you are missing out on anything to eat this instead of regular pizza.

Have you heard people say that the cauliflower is the new kale? Last year everything was all about kale but this year its the cauli. I have seen so many recipes now for a cauliflower pizza crust!

[bright sparks]

I serve foods along the lines of Jenn and dodge by the sounds of it. I give fruit at almost every meal and snack but I need to get better at serving veggies. My kids have always ate veggies in stews, soups, chilis, etc but I have only ever had one who liked them raw. I don't serve veggies with dip but may try serving it with hummus or something like that.

Superfun, I am not sure if hot dogs are ever really "healthy" but nothing beats a hot dog cooked over the bonfire....go on and splurge!! lol :) Crap food in moderation isn't the devil....IMO haha

Other ways to save money....

1. Do you supply the sunscreen? If you do, can you ask the parents to start or to at least pay for what you buy (I ask this because I just buy it out of pocket...well not really. I feel my fee covers it)

2. Do you buy/make gifts for special occasions? If you do, can you cut those out? (again, I ask because I do a lot of gifts and if I needed to save money this would be one of the first things I would cut out)

They all supply their own sunscreen and as I have said a couple of times we only make crafts around themes. This isn't a case of not being able to afford to run my daycare but simply that as the cost of running it goes up the expense is not passed on in any portion to the parents, it is coming out of my pocket, my earnings.

[dodge__driver11]

Culiflower bread is super!

[mickyc]

It is one thing to have a personal perspective different to another person but what is healthy and what isn't healthy is not opinion, it is backed up by research and fact. Processed foods like hot dogs and nuggets are unhealthy, that is fact. If another person doesn't agree that they are unhealthy, they are still unhealthy and that person is just wrong.

I guess we will just agree to disagree. I could serve my kids fresh fish fried in a lb of organic butter - homemade and organic but still not healthy. Like I said it is all personal perspective and there is nothing wrong with moderation. Each to their own. Sorry, I enjoy my "unhealthy" food too much to jump on your organic bandwagon. Anyways, last time I am posting on this topic.

[5 Little Monkeys]

They all supply their own sunscreen and as I have said a couple of times we only make crafts around themes. This isn't a case of not being able to afford to run my daycare but simply that as the cost of running it goes up the expense is not passed on in any portion to the parents, it is coming out of my pocket, my earnings.

Yes I read that about crafts but I asked about gifts. I do a lot of baking with the children and will often send it home, I make up goody bags for various holidays such as valentines, Easter, Halloween etc, I buy birthday and Christmas gifts for the children and I make up a family basket of gifts when a family leaves. The amount of money I spend on these will sometimes vary if my extra cash fund is low at the time.

What specific costs have gone up that you are referring too? Knowing this will perhaps enable us to offer better suggestions. Some things go up in price but it won't always be up to the parents to pay for it if you know what I mean? For example, sometimes our cable/internet go up in price but I wouldn't necessarily raise my fees to cover that, instead I would decrease my package if I couldn't afford it anymore.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Culiflower bread is super!

I'd like to try cauliflower pizza crust. Have you and did you like it? I've tried mashed cauliflower instead of potatoes but it wasn't my cup of tea lol. Luckily I don't eat potatoes much anyways

[Momof4]

Interesting reading. I'm on the side of home cooking with all fresh foods, never will KD touch the lips of my dckids in my home when 2 cups of milk, 1 cup of macaroni cooked for several minutes and mixed with shredded cheese is healthy, easy and delicious - and sodium-free! I answered several pages ago that I'm a partially organic daycare so I agree with a lot of brightsparks' posts. We have hot dogs once or twice a year, but we have sausages a couple times a month. When my children were small I thought buying the chicken weiners were healthier until my son bit into one and had a chicken feather in his mouth. ALL the chicken parts are in there, yuck!

I run weekly themes and we only make one craft/week to match the theme I'm teaching. I throw away all the coloured & painted pages usually to give the parents a break. I've cut way down from all the crafting we did when I was new at this.

As far as sunscreen, I buy organic - Green Beaver and I collect $5 from each family in the spring to buy the sunscreen for the season, one bottle at a time so they don't send in 5 different bottles. I'm loving this system.

[Crayola kiddies]

Well I'm a little late to the party here but I'll do my vest to just reply to the original question and not get into the debate of organic vs non..... It seems as though you have cut your costs as much as you can and the only thing left is the organic foods ..... I like the idea of a newsletter but I'm going to suggest that maybe you should ask the parents what they prefer .... Would they rather a $2/day increase to help with the rising food costs (I know this is not what you were originally looking for but its a start) or would they prefer you cut down on the organic foods .... Let them know you will go with the majority. If they choose to go with non organic products hopefully that will make it a little easier for you to adapt to as if will be what the parents want .... Just a though to maybe let you off the hook a bit Then a far as other utilities move your ac up a bit so it's not as cold in the house and in the winter drop your heat a bit and wear a sweater

[AmandaKDT]

Have you heard people say that the cauliflower is the new kale? Last year everything was all about kale but this year its the cauli. I have seen so many recipes now for a cauliflower pizza crust!

I haven't heard that cauliflower is the new kale, though I am definitely behind on the kale thing. I made kale chips in the oven last week and didn't really like it. I don't know if I cooked them too long, but they had a bitter after taste that wasn't very pleasant. But I had raw kale mixed with other greens in a salad and that was good.

I haven't tried cauliflower pizza crust, that is a new one. I have been making cauliflower mashed "potatoes" for a long time and recently made cauliflower "rice" with cilantro and lime juice that was really yummy. I will have to give the pizza crust a try, sounds interesting.

[bright sparks]

Yes I read that about crafts but I asked about gifts. I do a lot of baking with the children and will often send it home, I make up goody bags for various holidays such as valentines, Easter, Halloween etc, I buy birthday and Christmas gifts for the children and I make up a family basket of gifts when a family leaves. The amount of money I spend on these will sometimes vary if my extra cash fund is low at the time.

What specific costs have gone up that you are referring too? Knowing this will perhaps enable us to offer better suggestions. Some things go up in price but it won't always be up to the parents to pay for it if you know what I mean? For example, sometimes our cable/internet go up in price but I wouldn't necessarily raise my fees to cover that, instead I would decrease my package if I couldn't afford it anymore.

So the cost of utilities meaning gas, hydro and water. I'm not talking about things that are not related to daycare. Cable is not part of daycare expenses. Also the cost of gas (fuel) has gone up tremendously over the last few years during which time I haven't raises my rates. I hardly ever take my kids out in the minivan anymore although I specifically lease my 8 seater for work. My husband pays my cheques in now so I don't make that trip and I have managed to get my insurance down nearly 100 a month. Gas, hydro and water rates go up annually and I can't imagine that being any different in other provinces. Property tax goes up but obviously that isn't effected by my daycare but I use a hell of a lot more of the above three for business use even though I am very concious of what times I use my washer and lights being left on etc etc.

@momof4 yes hotdogs are just parts. I have had friends ask me if organic hotdogs are okay and my response is always to see if you don't mind eating organic bum holes hahaha. My 13 year old has now started asking what things are made out of and is being much more concious of the quality of food she puts inside her when she is eating food that someone else has provided her. She does a lot of camping so the bulk of that food is horrific. That being said she is still always polite it would always try and make plans ahead.of time otherwise if something was in front of her she would either eat it or leave it but would pull her face or complain about it if there wasn't another choice for her. Thankfully I raised her right on this area because I stood to my guns and don't run a restaurant in my house but at the same time if I know my kids don't like a certain thing, and especially for these types of reasons, I won't force them to eat it.

[bright sparks]

Well I'm a little late to the party here but I'll do my vest to just reply to the original question and not get into the debate of organic vs non..... It seems as though you have cut your costs as much as you can and the only thing left is the organic foods ..... I like the idea of a newsletter but I'm going to suggest that maybe you should ask the parents what they prefer .... Would they rather a $2/day increase to help with the rising food costs (I know this is not what you were originally looking for but its a start) or would they prefer you cut down on the organic foods .... Let them know you will go with the majority. If they choose to go with non organic products hopefully that will make it a little easier for you to adapt to as if will be what the parents want .... Just a though to maybe let you off the hook a bit Then a far as other utilities move your ac up a bit so it's not as cold in the house and in the winter drop your heat a bit and wear a sweater

I'd be happy with the $2 a day. It was all I was going to raise my rates by anyway. I like your suggestions on talking to the parents....thanks