To claim or not to claim

[kassiemom]

hey,
so i know there are many different ways of running a home daycare. i am wondering if anyone know if it is financially better to offer receipts or not. and how much extra you charge if you do offer receipts.

[mickyc]

Always claim your income! I don't understand why someone wouldn't provide receipts if you are claiming it anyways. Also what parent wouldn't want a receipt to claim on their taxes?

I charge what I charge and it is the same regardless.

[kassiemom]

well if someone doesn't claim the income they wouldn't give receipts

[5 Little Monkeys]

To my knowledge.....it is illegal to not claim income. Even if you classify yourself as a babysitter and not a dcp, it is still income you are to claim.

Parents will want to claim Childcare as well so I imagine it would be hard to find parents who are okay with no receipts. I've only been asked once if they could pay less and not get a receipt. My answer is no. I'm not willing to go to jail lol

[Rachael]

The only reason I can see for not offering receipts, is so you are able to leave that income undeclared i.e. work under the table.

I feel really strongly about this.

Not declaring your income is tax fraud. It is a criminal offence - and not only that - it's beyond selfish.

I am a single parent. I don't get any income other than from my business. I get no child support - nothing. Even so, I declare every single penny I earn because guess what - that's the law! I have no pension, no health care, no chance of ever retiring and I live in a Province that has the highest taxes in the whole country.

Not only are people who work under the table being sneaky and dishonest, but they are gaining benefit from the taxes I pay whilst holding onto their own funds and not contributing equally to tax funded elements of this country. Futhermore, those who happen to be parents too, are artificially lowering their household income on their tax return, which results in a higher payment of child tax credit then they are entitled to as that is means tested.

So, funds straight in pocket with no taxes paid on them, using services which I am funding, and also swiping my tax dollars again for their own family by false claims of entitlement for family credit each month. Lowest of the low.

No different than someone breaking into my house and stealing my possessions - selfish, criminal activity where the rest of us have to pay for consequences. I hope someone who works for CRA finds out and I hope you are audited back the full 7 years and fined steeply.

[CrazyEight]

If you make more than $50 a week and you don't claim it, you are committing tax fraud, as the above poster mentioned, and it is illegal. There may BE "many ways to run a daycare," but there is only one legitimate way, by claiming all your income, all your expenses, and paying the taxes you owe. Sorry, just how it is.

I don't want to be harsh, but it's incredibly frustrating to see so many "babysitters" in my city blatantly stating in their ads that they don't offer receipts, usually because they're already collecting EI and don't want that to disappear once the government knows they're making other money. Again, this is also illegal. They are usually incredibly cheap, they are usually over in numbers (hey, if you're already breaking one law, why not break some more??), and since they can't claim food expenses in their tax deductions, my guess is that they feed their daycare kids as cheaply as possible, which is not always the healthiest.

Providers like this make the rest of us look like money-grabbing totalitarians, with our contracts, higher fees (to reflect things like taxes and expenses) and other rules. If every provider would simply abide by the LAW, our fees would at least all be in the same ballpark for our city and average income, and parents would stop assuming that every provider should offer full-time care for $15 a day!!

Just....no. Claim your income, pay your taxes, and realize all the benefits you get from those tax dollars. You may not always agree with it, but we live in Canada - that's how it is. I don't need to think about yet more people skirting the system to get out of paying taxes, and at the same time stealing clients away from legitimate business-owners who ARE following the rules, even if we don't always agree with them.

[kassiemom]

Thank you all for your input. I fully agree to be claiming and i do. I just recently talked to someone who does it "under the table" and she made it sound so good that I thought i would see what my professional friends had to say. I love the points you all made. Rachael i am a little hurt that you would be cruel and wish such negativity on me when I never EVER stated whether or not i actually claim. please try and think before you criticize someone like that.

[Rachael]

hey,
so i know there are many different ways of running a home daycare. i am wondering if anyone know if it is financially better to offer receipts or not. and how much extra you charge if you do offer receipts.... Rachael i am a little hurt that you would be cruel and wish such negativity on me when I never EVER stated whether or not i actually claim. please try and think before you criticize someone like that.

Oh be honest. Whether or not you actually claim is irrelevant to what I posted. Your original post was very clear in that you were "wondering if anyone knows if it's financially better to offer receipts or not". That means you were at least considering it if you aren't already working under the table.

Typically, those who have been called our on things like this, turn and point the "finger of blame" and pull out the "oh I'm so hurt that you thought this" card.

I really don't care if you were offended or not by my comments. You asked for opinions and you got them. Bottom line, it's lower than the low, selfish, criminal behaviour. And if you aren't going to be honest enough to at least own up to your reasons for posting, and if you need to blame me for being so direct, then so be it. Whatever helps you sleep at night. I do hope you are at least being honest with yourself! Incredible!

EDIT - I can likely predict your next action as one who obviously doesn't own their actions - you'll either edit your original post to reflect yourself in a better light which is why I have quoted you or you will report my comments as offensive with little realization that course of action is for genuinely offensive posts vs ones you don't happen to like. The offensive action in this thread isn't my honest reply!

[Dreamalittledream]

So many advantages to claiming; you can write off soooo many things (Mortgage interest, toys, insurance...on and on....yay!). In the end (after paying my taxes at the end of the year and minus my retirement savings) I still come out way further ahead then when I was working outside the home.
Rachael: I value this forum as a place where anyone should feel comfortable asking anything. Your harsh response is exactly why many never return and try to fend for themselves and that makes me sad:(. Just my 2 cents.

[Rachael]

If you read my original comment on this thread, you;ll see that it was factual. The later response was when the OP decided to call me out on my opinion which she'd requested.

Sorry if you feel it's harsh but end of the day, it's a criminal activity which directly costs me more and if being called on criminal actions makes people feel uncomfortable, perhaps they would be better off following the laws rather than getting bent out of shape when people are highly offended.

IF someone came here asking about the benefits of mugging an pensioner at the bank machine after they withdrew their pension, you can bet it wouldn't be the person calling them out on such a disgusting thought who would be focus! SMH

[2cuteboys]

Claim it! Being audited isn't a pretty thing- and I'm NOT speaking from experience btw. It takes weeks of paperwork to prove what you've claimed and if you don't, there are fines (or worse) for fraud.

And to scare you a bit more, I've heard of people going into these arrangements with parents where they charge less per month in exchange for not providing receipts to claim - to have parents later turn around and demand receipts. And guess what, you'd have to by law. So not only are you out income for those 12 months, but you'll have to pay taxes on it as well.

[kassiemom]

I hope someone who works for CRA finds out and I hope you are audited back the full 7 years and fined steeply.
Rachel - THIS is not an OPINION this is clear hatred. I really am angry that there are people like you on here who do not make the forum a welcoming place where women with a common interest can work together to provide the best care possible for the children.

[Rachael]

The best possible care for children does not come from cheap care, dishonesty providers whose business can be closed without notice. How is any of that in the interests of the child.

A common interest where we can all work together to provide the best care comes from ...
1. Running an above board business which is at no risk of being shut down and therefore provides a stable environment.
2. Leading by example and showing children that although dishonesty might benefit them in the short term, it is immoral and selfish to break the laws for personal gain.
3. By investing in yourself and being educated in the field you work, you can provide a higher quality service and gain training which assists in helping each child reach their potential.
4. By declaring all your income in an above board manner, you are also able to honestly claim for true business expenses. This allows a carer to provide nutritious food and quality toys and supplies.

Working under the table drives down the price of honest carers who do all of the above. Once the market is saturated with people charging less because they are lining their own pockets and screwing over their friends, neighbours and community, then the value of the service is seen as being less. This results in people working long hours for barely a couple of bucks per hour and out of that paying for food and supplies. As a point of necessity, the quality of food and supplies also falls because it's coming out of reduced fees - explain to me how any of thus is working towards the best care for the children?

Choose to be angry about my presence if you so wish but I am entertained by the irony of you being angry because I do indeed hope if you are working under the table, you are found out and pay a high price for doing it vs you not understanding that even considering this is deplorable.

You are all ready to call me out for not making the forum welcoming and yet you refuse to see that cheats, tax evaders, and dishonesty are highly offensive to those who do follow the law. Damn right I have no intentions of being welcoming to criminal activity and damn right I won't be warm and fuzzy to such selfish members of society.

You have got your panties all in a bunch because you find my comments rude and unwelcoming but you fully choose to miss the point that you are considering (or already) at tax cheat, dishonest, not looking after the interests of the child but more so your own bank balance, are setting a terrible example of doing the right thing. The irony of that level of self-righteousness has to burn.

Hatred no - I've never hated anyone - disgust and contempt, absolutely, but I have disgust and contempt for anyone who thinks they are above the rules for personal gain.

[AmandaKDT]

Rachel, had to occurred to you that perhaps Kassiemom was asking the question because she doesn't realize how serious of a nature it is to not make proper income tax claims? Making no assumption about Kassiemom, but there are a wide range of providers on this forum with a wide range of educational backgrounds. That is why there is this forum, to help support and educate each other.

Rachel, you have made very personal and hostile claims against someone you know nothing about. She asked a simple question and all you needed to do was answer it with the simple facts, instead of writing an essay about how horrible of a person she is.

[Fun&care]

Rachael, although I agree with you that not claiming your income is not the best course of action for many reasons, I don't think there was any need to jump on kassiemom and make huge assumptions about her and her business. The truth is that although your original post did indeed have FACTS it also had harsh JUDGEMENTS about those facts. There really isn't any need for that. She asked a simple and pretty innocent question. Please show some empathy and respect.

[Rachael]

Rachel, had to occurred to you that perhaps Kassiemom was asking the question because she doesn't realize how serious of a nature it is to not make proper income tax claims? Making no assumption about Kassiemom, but there are a wide range of providers on this forum with a wide range of educational backgrounds. That is why there is this forum, to help support and educate each other.

Rachel, you have made very personal and hostile claims against someone you know nothing about. She asked a simple question and all you needed to do was answer it with the simple facts, instead of writing an essay about how horrible of a person she is.


I made no assumptions what-s-ever. If you read the full thread properly she clearly states...


"well if someone doesn't claim the income they wouldn't give receipts" which is a clear indication that she understood the only reason not to give receipts was because they wouldn't be claiming the income. Why would anyone knowingly reduce their claimed income unless they fully understood that doing so would reduce their tax bill?

Furthermore, she followed up that statement with this one...

" I just recently talked to someone who does it "under the table" and she made it sound so good that I thought i would see what my professional friends had to say." Again stating that the wrong action sounded sooooo goood that she thought she'd get the nod from everyone else and follow suit.

Personally, I don't for one second believe that she just recently talked to someone because if you read her history, when she asks based on a situation someone else is doing, she says so in her initial post.

She asked a simple question - and she got an honest answer. The fact she's all upset because she doesn't like my very strong feelings on this, is not my concern. She can choose to take my comments in any manner she wishes. She can choose to ignore it if she doesn't feel it's valid or justified.

OR she can do the right thing and report her colleague for working under the table (if this third party exists which I don't believe they do).

I did answer in simple facts. Let me reiterate them.

The simple facts are -
1. Working under the table is low. It's tax fraud and like any other crime, I hope those who participate in it, deal with the full consequences when caught including massive fines and fraud charges.
2. It drives down the value of child care as parents expect above board professionals to charge the same as tax cheats and criminals - it's like going to a high end salon and expecting First Choice Haircutters prices but sadly once the market is saturated with thrift stores, the quality places have to move and seek quality clients.
3. By reducing their real earning on their tax return - they are stealing directly out of my pocket. I have to pay more to cover the costs of services in my community when people are acting dishonestly because the costs have to be covered.
4. By reducing their real earnings on their tax return, they are also stealing from my tax dollars because as a parent of Cassie, she is claiming Child Tax Credit based on her lied about income level.

Again, she called me out with how hurt her feelings are but yet is seems perfectly fine that she's working under the table or accepting that from her peers.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Rachael, I fully agree with you that those who do not claim their income are selfish and ruining the business for the rest of us who are trying to run a legal business. HOWEVER, you are being very hostile towards the OP by believing your own assumptions of her. Unless I missed it, she didn't say she was doing this. Please don't attack others, it's so uncalled for. If you wanted to ask for clarification, by all means go ahead but don't assume things of others and than attack them for it! It only makes you look foolish.

I really enjoy this site and don't wish for it to become filled with negativity, personal attacks and assumptions. It really does no one any good. I look to dcbear for guidance, advice and I view many of you as virtual coworkers! Please don't ruin that :)

Kassiesmom...there really is no legal benefit to not claiming your income. Save yourself the stress and headaches you will endure thinking of the possibility of being caught and/or the actuality of being caught. Tax fraud is nothing to dismiss!! If caught, there are harsh consequences. Claim your income, inform your friend of the cons of doing it her way and feel good knowing you run a legal business! :)

[mickyc]

Wow Rachael, wow! Calm down.

Not everyone really understands or knows all the laws. She knows someone who is currently doing it and is telling her how wonderful it is to do it that way. Honestly if she decides to go this route it is her own business and it will be her that has to deal with the consequences of her actions. She asked a question, we all told her our opinions and now it is up to her to decide if she wants to go that route or not. Is it right, no but she certainly wouldn't be the first or the last to provide care "under the table". I hope that by coming here and asking our opinions that she decides this is not the way she wants to go.

kassiemom - please don't let one person's harsh words keep you from asking questions and posting on daycare bear. :-)

[Secondtimearound]

I also had a friend who didn't claim , she provided before and after care . It turned out really bad for her as she had finished doing her taxes and the family demanded receipts ! It was very frusterating to watch as she scrambled to figure it all out !
It is a benefit to the parent to claim .
I hope enough of us have answered in the same way so that your question was addressed !!
Not trying to rehash drama , but I think her question was on not claiming income , not Rachel's opinion of her not claiming income .

[mamaof4]

:mod:

We do not know for a fact that kassiesmom is doing anything other than asking a question. She wanted input- she got it. End of story.

Each of us is entitled to our own opinions, we are entitled and encouraged to feel strongly and passionately, and entitled to voice them- we are not entitled to attack or belittle each other.

[mamaof4]

For what it is worth, I can see the edited versions of threads and compare them.

Also- in terms of the difference between tax fraud/evasion etc and Mugging (assault/battery/robbery) can be complex. The US system is different from Canada's but in the US at least tax crimes are considered federal and assault/battery/robbery are considered at the state level.

[kassiemom]

Thank you all for the answers and support.

[cfred]

Wow! I've not been coming in here much over the past few months...for this very reason. How did it go from a woman asking about issuing receipts to this? Jeez...it's like working in a daycare centre again, but with more anonymity (this is not a good thing). Rachael, my goodness! Did her simple question really warrant you ripping this woman a new orifice? Whether or not she's planning to claim or not isn't really the issue. She asked a simple question and you started flipping like a ninja all over her ass without really knowing the back story. Perhaps pouring a cup of tea (and some wine later) would be a good idea....just chill out!

I, too, am a single mother of 3 children. Like you, no child support and this is my sole source of income. This does not make anyone special enough to warrant that sort of treatment of someone in any forum. Take your hostilities out on someone who deserves them....that's what exhusbands are for ;)

[Rachael]

She asked a simple question and you started flipping like a ninja all over her ass without really knowing the back story. .....Take your hostilities out on someone who deserves them....that's what exhusbands are for ;)

Hard to do with dead husband though! Damn that not knowing the back story judgemental view :-)

[cfred]

Sorry about your husband. That really is a tough hand. However, I maintain, there really isn't a need to be a complete witch toward someone. We can all recognize unwarranted nastiness when we see it. It just wasn't that big of a deal, but you spent a significant amount of time tearing strips off this woman and saying things that, I suspect, in a public situation without anonymity, you probably wouldn't have been so hostile...at least that's my hope. I don't get the impression that you're a complete witch, but rather found a place to let loose without any real repercussions. This site is rife with people attacking each other, complaining and seeking attention. There's really no need to add to that atmosphere. It's counterproductive, immature and, frankly, completely unnecessary.

I also realize that the comment about your husband was designed to make me feel terrible for my flippant remark about exhusbands. I truly am sorry for what can only be a very hard situation for you. I'm sure it was terrible. I could not possibly know that and, since my statement actually had no judgmental connotations whatsoever, I can't help but think bringing this info to light was for a specific reaction from me. I stated the obvious. If you want attention, just seek it in a kinder, gentler way. Most of the people in here are pretty decent folk if you treat them with respect. I'm done with this thread now, so have at it and let loose on me if you wish....not all that bothered. But a word of advice...get over it. It just doesn't matter and isn't worth alienating yourself from your peers.

[AmandaKDT]

Wow! I've not been coming in here much over the past few months...for this very reason. How did it go from a woman asking about issuing receipts to this? Jeez...it's like working in a daycare centre again, but with more anonymity (this is not a good thing). Rachael, my goodness! Did her simple question really warrant you ripping this woman a new orifice? Whether or not she's planning to claim or not isn't really the issue. She asked a simple question and you started flipping like a ninja all over her ass without really knowing the back story. Perhaps pouring a cup of tea (and some wine later) would be a good idea....just chill out!


Funny how you mentioned this because I was just thinking the other day that it had been awhile since there had been any drama on here...so much for that!