Limits in Your Province/Territory. please

[Rachael]

Since joining this site, I'm amazed at just how much the regulations change across the Provinces/Territories.

Just wondering what the limits are in your area. I'll start with mine...


NOVA SCOTIA
The carer's own children/step-children are included in the count, until they have had their 12th birthday, even if the household children only live there part-time.

Registered (agency approved/able to take subsidiary clients)

If even one child is too young for school, then no more than 6 children, including household children.

No more than 8 children if they are ALL school age, including household children.

No more than 2 of the 6 children may be younger than 24 months.
No more than 3 of the 6 children may be younger than 36 months.


Unregistered (private, non-agency approved)

If even one child is too young for school, then no more than 6 children, including household children.

No more than 8 children if they are ALL school age, including household children.

No additional restrictions on the ages of the children taken.

[CrazyEight]

Well, I now know provinces, as we're looking at possibly moving to New Brunswick.

ONTARO

You CANNOT be independently licensed or registered in Ontario, you are either Private (which most people inaccurately call unlicensed) or you are contracted through a licensed Agency. As far as I know, most agencies count your own children in your total number, and restrict the amount of infants you can have.

Private caregivers do NOT have to count their own children in their total number of allowed daycare children, which is 5. You can have 5 children not including your own under care at one time, up to the age of 10, after which they don't count. There are no other restrictions on the ages you can have.

The new Bill would make children count until the age of 13, require providers to count their own children until age 6 in their total number, and restrict providers to only 2 children under age 2, including any of the provider's own children. Hence why we are fighting the Bill. But I won't hijack this thread...

NEW BRUNSWICK

Here you can be private/unlicensed or independently licensed through the provincial government.

Providers can have ONE of the following:

a) 3 infants
b) 4 preschoolers (ages 2-5)
c) 8 school-agers, but ALL must be over age 5
d) 5 children of mixed ages, with only 1 infant

If licensed, those numbers increase somewhat:

a) 3 infants
b) 5 preschoolers
c) 9 schoolagers
d) 6 of mixed ages, with only 2 infants and one having to be over age 5

Providers' own children count until age 12. Independent licensing looks pretty strict, but there are "wage enhancements" paid by the govt, because of a shortage of spots, particularly infant spots. It's super-complicated, which I assume is why I haven't found anyone on here from NB!

[Rachael]

Private caregivers do NOT have to count their own children in their total number of allowed daycare children, which is 5. You can have 5 children not including your own under care at one time, up to the age of 10, after which they don't count. There are no other restrictions on the ages you can have.

Just to clarify..If a carer's own children do not count and children over the age of 10 do not count, then theoretically, an Ontario carer can have unlimited children as long as they are her own and client children over age 10?

[bright sparks]

Just to clarify..If a carer's own children do not count and children over the age of 10 do not count, then theoretically, an Ontario carer can have unlimited children as long as they are her own and client children over age 10?

Yes that's exactly right

[CrazyEight]

I suppose so. I personally don't have any that old, but I know providers that have a younger sibling in care, and take the older one B/A school. There's not a lot of demand for care for children over age 10 though, I don't think you could make a living on it.

But yes, technically, the DNA states "a provider can have up to 5 children under age 10 in care at one time, not including the provider's own children."

[AmandaKDT]

Manitoba:

Unlicensed can have a max of 4 kids under the age of 12, including own children

Licensed can have a max of 8 kids under the age of 12, including own children. Of these 8, only 5 can be under 6 years old and only 3 of those can be under 2 years old. But I can get exemptions if a 5 year old is attending full day kindergarten, making them considered school age and allowing them to be part of my school age numbers.

[Rachael]

Golly, that's interesting.

[Rachael]

Found the information for PEI

PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND

Family/In-home Child care limits

Regulated Child care
The maximum capacity for a regulated family child care home is seven children including the provider’s own children under school-age. Of those seven children there can be a maximum of three children under two years.

Unregulated child care
A family child care home is not required to be regulated if it has five or fewer children of any age, including the preschool-age children of the person providing the care. If all children are under 2 years, three are allowed, or five preschoolers with no more than two of them younger than 2 years. Six are allowed in a mixed-age group up to 10 years with no more than two younger than 2 years.


Source of information : http://findingqualitychildc are.ca/index.php/prince-edward-island

[Rachael]

NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR

Regulated Child Care
The provider may care for a maximum of six children (in special circumstances up to eight). Of that six, a maximum of three children may be less than 36 months of age. Of that three, a maximum of two children may be less than 24 months. There is provision in the legislation for providers to care for three children less than 24 months of age, but in those cases, the maximum number of children permitted is three. The provider’s own children who are in full-time attendance at school are not included in the maximum number. The actual number of children that the home is licensed or approved to care for will depend on factors such as the space available in the home.

Unregulated Child Care
no more than four children age 0-12 years, or to three children less than 24 months

Source of information : http://www.gov.nl.ca/cyfs/childcare/familychildcare.html

[5 Little Monkeys]

Also in MB and to add to Amanda's post....private can have 4 max but no more than 2 under 2 years of age.

I have spoke with head office and asked if my husband were to stay home and parent our own child ( I have no children of my own currently) if I would still be allowed to have my full 4 and the answer was no. I think it's ridiculous but not much I can do! I do encourage parents in mb to email and ask for a change to our laws though as the lady I spoke too said that's all we can do at this point.

[AmandaKDT]

Also in MB and to add to Amanda's post....private can have 4 max but no more than 2 under 2 years of age.

I have spoke with head office and asked if my husband were to stay home and parent our own child ( I have no children of my own currently) if I would still be allowed to have my full 4 and the answer was no. I think it's ridiculous but not much I can do! I do encourage parents in mb to email and ask for a change to our laws though as the lady I spoke too said that's all we can do at this point.

Pretty sure that is because they want people to get licensed, so the ratio for unlicensed is low. That is why I got licensed, there is no way I could have made any sort of living only taking 2 daycare children on top of my own 2 daughters.

Saw in the news last year of an unlicensed Manitoba provider that had one or two other adults working with her in her home and she had like 12 kids. She got shut down because the only way you can do that is if you are licensed as a group home daycare.

But really, it is an involved processed to get licensed but once you have it then it isn't hard to maintain at all. It also makes it easier to fill your spots, parents like the idea of a home daycare being licensed.

[superfun]

But really, it is an involved processed to get licensed but once you have it then it isn't hard to maintain at all. It also makes it easier to fill your spots, parents like the idea of a home daycare being licensed.

I agree with you completely. It wasn't worth it to only have two kids plus my two. I don't find it that difficult to maintain everything that goes along with being licensed. I have talked to a few different people though, and it seems the right or wrong coordinator makes all the difference.

[5 Little Monkeys]

Yes for sure that is the reason. However, I have worked in licensed centre's and know firsthand that licensing isn't all it's cracked up to be. I am perfectly content being private and make an okay living doing so, so for now I will remain private. For myself, I have no interest in taking school aged children so for me, becoming licensed would only allow me one more child. I likely wouldn't take the grants and would still charge the rate I do now. I know typically parents choose licensed due to subsidy but because I wouldn't be offering that I would loose out on those parents anyways. If we decide to have a child or move to a bigger home than I will look at licensing again but I think staying private is what I will choose anyways.

The only times I have found being private has hurt me is when parents are wanting/needing subsidy.

Group home daycare is a cool thing but the reason I do this is to stay home so I would want it in my home and to do that I need a bigger house lol.

[AmandaKDT]

Yes for sure that is the reason. However, I have worked in licensed centre's and know firsthand that licensing isn't all it's cracked up to be. I am perfectly content being private and make an okay living doing so, so for now I will remain private. For myself, I have no interest in taking school aged children so for me, becoming licensed would only allow me one more child. I likely wouldn't take the grants and would still charge the rate I do now. I know typically parents choose licensed due to subsidy but because I wouldn't be offering that I would loose out on those parents anyways. If we decide to have a child or move to a bigger home than I will look at licensing again but I think staying private is what I will choose anyways.

The only times I have found being private has hurt me is when parents are wanting/needing subsidy.

Group home daycare is a cool thing but the reason I do this is to stay home so I would want it in my home and to do that I need a bigger house lol.

With accepting subsidy you don't necessarily have all subsidized families, I don't have any right now (just by coincidence). But it can end up being easier financially for all the parents, not just the subsidized ones. I get grant money for every licensed spot I have, making it possible for ALL my families to pay lower rates.

I think being licensed becomes really beneficial once your own children are school age. It allows me to have more children than I would be allowed if unlicensed, and since I have to deal with school buses and such no matter what (since they are my own kids) it makes it a win, win situation. Now that my older daughter is in school she fills one of my school age spots, leaving one of my preschool spots available to be filled with a daycare child.

[AmandaKDT]

I agree with you completely. It wasn't worth it to only have two kids plus my two. I don't find it that difficult to maintain everything that goes along with being licensed. I have talked to a few different people though, and it seems the right or wrong coordinator makes all the difference.

My coordinator has been really good, she will help me with whatever I need and it has always been a positive relationship.

[superfun]

My coordinator has been really good, she will help me with whatever I need and it has always been a positive relationship.

Yes, I meant to add that to my original post and forgot. I actually really like my coordinator. I feel she's very supportive, and I'm comfortable asking her anything (daycare related, lol). I've also asked her to come give me her opinion on some behaviours displayed by one of the dck's. I feel like I really got lucky with mine. I actually look forward to the surprise visits rather than get nervous about them.
Once again, I couldn't agree more about how useful it is that I don't have to count my 5 year old as a preschool spot, since she's away in grade 1 most of my daycare day.

[SillyGirl_C]

British Columbia
Below is for home care only. There are additional regulations for group child care.

- No License: 2 children or sibling group in addition to your own children.

- License Care: 7 children inc. your own under the age of 12. No more than: 3 children younger than 48 months old and , of those 3, no more than one child younger than 12 months old or 4 children younger than 48 months old and, of those 4, no more than 2 children younger than 24 months old

[Secondtimearound]

Alberta is up to six NOT including your own . The example they give is a provider who has 3 children can have 6 dayhome children , total amount 9 .

[5 Little Monkeys]

It's so crazy and interesting to me to read the differences!!

[Van]

yes I agree 5
it is so different every where.
very interesting - I am glad Rachael set this up.Thanks for all the info everyone

[playfelt]

Another question for people to answer please is the definition of school age. The problem we are having here in Ontario with the rule changes is that children enter care at age 1 because of year long maternity leave and start school at 3 3/4 (ie if a child turns 4 before the end of December they can start school that September so youngest would be 4 months shy of turning 4 when starting school). That is only a 2-3 year window for children needing full time care. The schools also offer a large amount of before and after care for school age children. The more you restrict the available pool of children the harder it is to maintain career status in childcare.

[Rachael]

In NS, they go to school the year they have their 5th birthday.

Years ago, they had to be 5 years old before 1st October that year to begin school in the September (my son had to wait a full year because his birthday is 21st October, even though he'd been in mainstream school in England since he was 3.5!).

Now as long as they have their 5th birthday by 31st December, they go to school in September.

i.e. Born 01-Jan-2009 to 31-Dec-2009 then they would have gone to Primary in September 2014.

On the other end of the spectrum, children here are not meant to be left unsupervised until they are 12 years old.

[Van]

Thanks Playfelt that is very interesting but it must be hard for child care providers in Ontario
I can see the problems that you are now facing over there - So sorry for you all

[Van]

BC is the same as NS, The children go to school when they are 5 years and have to be supervised till they are 12 years old-and the schools do not provide hot lunches over here, the children bring their own lunch

[superfun]

In mb, school age is 5 if they're in full day kinder, if they are in half day kinder then school age is as soon as they "graduate" from kinder, or turn 6.
We have similar laws about under 2. It's two under two if you're private. You can have 3 under 2 if you're licensed. Currently, I have two 1 year olds and 3 2 year olds. And on in service days, I have my oldest daughter (5) and another school age child.

[33 Daiseys]

What everyone should brace for is that if this does pass in Ontario, the goal is to have all of Canada using the same numbers by 2017 I think. I was speaking with a gentleman at the remembrance day ceremony yesterday, and he said that is the governments long term plan.

[superfun]

I can't see it happening in Manitoba, but I could be wrong. I doubt they'll increase the number of children in a private daycare. They would be losing one of the main incentives to get licensed.

[Rachael]

What everyone should brace for is that if this does pass in Ontario, the goal is to have all of Canada using the same numbers by 2017 I think. I was speaking with a gentleman at the remembrance day ceremony yesterday, and he said that is the governments long term plan.

If you look at the prior posts, many of us are already restricted to the same numbers now and some of the Maritime provinces have even lower limits.

I do understand it's a big change for you in Ontario but considering your day care fees are a massive $10-$15 more per child per day anyway and you don't have the limits we do, of course other Provinces aren't so upset about Bill 10. Not being rude but it would bring you into line with the rest of us who've had these limits for many, many years.

If they were truly bringing all Provinces into line with each other, Bill 10 will come in and some of us will then get an increase in numbers.

[playfelt]

Childcare is provincial so Bill 10 applies only to Ontario. I guess what I wonder is why there are restrictions anywhere. They are based on antiquated rules and with the surge in artificial fertility and the birth of multiples it is shown over and over that a mom can handle more than one infant. It is time for the rules to be re-evaluated everywhere. Ontario is a good example where they have had two different sets of rules - opposite to most provinces in that those with the most oversight from an agency can have the least number of kids which makes no sense. But the DNA came out in 1946 and was retooled in the 80's with the rules we have now. The homes where a problem occurred were not following the rules as set out anyways so it isn't about the rules themselves that is the issue. Why change what works when the science behind the why is sketchy at best.

[sunnydays]

Rachel, I see what you are saying...Ontario seems to have had less restrictions than most other provinces. BUT, there is one key difference, as Playfelt mentioned...full day kindergarten starts for kids aged 3.5 - 4 years old. We only have ages 1-3 in terms of full-time care. There is no half day kindergarten even. And school aged care here pays so little, it is hardly worth the trouble. So how can we fill our daycares if we are restricted to only 2 under 2 and the rest basically have to be between 2 and 3 and then they are off to shool (and all schools have to provide before and after care, so there is no shortage there).

[sunnydays]

You also have to consider cost of living when you look at the fees we are charging. I just heard on CBC the other day that Ontario and Alberta are the provinces with the highest cost of food and gas. Housing may also be more expensive.

[CrazyEight]

Rachael, it's a pretty generalized statement to say that Ontario's fees are $10-$15 higher than yours. In Toronto maybe, but I'm in Belleville, a city of 50,000, and I charge between $30-$35, depending on age/hours. You can't be $10-$15 below that. Even Ottawa is between $35-$50/day, depending on where you are. It's the huge cities, Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, that have massively inflated daycare costs. The vast majority of us are pretty much in line with the rest of the country.

[sunnydays]

Crazy Eight...I think also that usually the cost of daycare is directly related to the cost of living in the area. So rent or mortgages in cities like Vancouver or Toronto are massive...so the cost of operating a daycare is also higher...thus higher fees.

[bright sparks]

Rachel, I see what you are saying...Ontario seems to have had less restrictions than most other provinces. BUT, there is one key difference, as Playfelt mentioned...full day kindergarten starts for kids aged 3.5 - 4 years old. We only have ages 1-3 in terms of full-time care. There is no half day kindergarten even. And school aged care here pays so little, it is hardly worth the trouble. So how can we fill our daycares if we are restricted to only 2 under 2 and the rest basically have to be between 2 and 3 and then they are off to shool (and all schools have to provide before and after care, so there is no shortage there).

I think my biggest issue with the rule is that it does not make children in the care of a home daycare provider any safer than if a provider were to have 5 under 2yrs. Some providers will be better with that number than others and I think a lot is down to personal preference as to whether they like that busy under 2 group where the dynamic is very different than a group of 3 or 4 year olds or a mixed group. The issue with the bill for many is how it effects income, and if my kids were younger and that aspect were to effect me, then perhaps my attitude would be different. Without my focus being on this aspect though, I am able to see things from a different angle which is that regardless of income and ratios, this bill is meant to ensure the safety of children attending in home independent childcare. This bill does no such thing, and the under 2 rule does nothing to impact this either. Give me a bill that ensures safety and supports providers with training and resources, not restrictions which make no sense. The children who tragically died were not in the care of a provider within the 5 plus your own rule....although maybe I missed those legal daycares playing by the rules where a tragic "accident" occurred without the presence of neglect in the headlines. They were grossly over ratio and were breaking multiple rules of health and safety additionally to many other common sense rules. How does Bill 10 even address those. This bill actually just gives way to an increase in illegal daycares with no way to enforce their increased fines as they haven't implemented any way of tracking providers unless they are with an agency. How many seemingly good providers are going to see the bill pass and be like, "No not doing it. I'm going to carry on as majority of people aren't aware of the DNA now, so they probably won't even know the rules that I am breaking with the new bill and I can't afford to lose the income. I won't draw any attention to myself. We won't go out other than the back yard." That will happen so so much. I think there should be ratios and guidelines, and I'm coming from a country where childcare, even home childcare requires a prerequisite training, licensing and is heavily regulated and monitored. That is how we keep our children safe. Bill 10 really makes a ton of money for agencies, and causes multiple providers and parents no doubt to fall into hardship as providers are forced to close, earning far less than minimum wage and as more and more providers close, parents without care will lose their jobs and be forced to stay at home. Way to screw things up in Ontario, Liberal government!!

[Rachael]

Rachel, I see what you are saying...Ontario seems to have had less restrictions than most other provinces. BUT, there is one key difference, as Playfelt mentioned...full day kindergarten starts for kids aged 3.5 - 4 years old. We only have ages 1-3 in terms of full-time care. There is no half day kindergarten even. And school aged care here pays so little, it is hardly worth the trouble. So how can we fill our daycares if we are restricted to only 2 under 2 and the rest basically have to be between 2 and 3 and then they are off to shool (and all schools have to provide before and after care, so there is no shortage there).

Here, it's very common for parents to pull their children a year before school and send them to a registered pre-school program. So it ends up being the same as losing them to school around 3.5 to 4 years. Sure, it's not everyone who does that but I'd say 80% of parents do.

I know Ontario providers feel Bill 10 is unfair - even though their rates and numbers are much higher than elsewhere - but to be honest, it's really hard to be sympathetic when they have a potential of everyone else's reality. I'm not saying that to be mean, it's just you've had it so good for so long. It's kind of like Beyonce moaning she's down to her last $50 million. LOL

FT day care here for 10+ hours maxes out at $35.00. Most people are around $30.00. For that we have to include two snacks (a grain and fresh fruit for each) and a lunch.

Before and after school care is around $15.00.

We are allowed 6 regardless of if we are registered. This includes any household children until they are 12. A household child could be a step-child who comes one week a month but they are allocated a full space. If we have all school age children, we may have 8, including household children. A mixture and the max reverts to 6 max.

If know it's crap - welcome to the conditions the rest of us are earning in.

$30 a day x 6 children = $180 per day. For 12 hours, before business expenses, tax, CPP at 6%. That's $15.00 gross business income, if we are full, and if we don't have household children under age 12.

We too have the limits on no more than two under two PLUS no more than three under three meaning 3 of our 6 places must be filled with children who have had their third birthday. Once they get to 4, most parents pull their child for a pre-school program. Why? Honestly - because most of the time, families can't afford to stay in the Maritimes long term and so, their children have to be able to keep up with children in other provinces when they leave and head West. Since those provinces start their children in school younger than we do, parents worry if they have to head West for work that their child will be behind their new peers.

I wish I was more sympathetic but as said, Ontario providers are just seeing what the rest of us have been dealing with for years.

[superfun]

That's true too. I hadn't thought of that, but as soon as the child is around 3, parents start to think about leaving for a preschool. Even if they're happy with the daycare, and the skills the kids are learning, it's just something parents do sometimes.
I have no issues with the under 2 rule either, because I really like my mix of 1 and 2 year olds.

[playfelt]

For me it is wondering where they get the under age 2 rule from in the sense that many daycare centres make the split at 18 months. If the rules were changed to two under 18 months I wouldn't have a problem with that because it allows for a bit of leeway when a space opens and kids are leaving for school and the next child doesn't turn 2 for another couple months - between 22 and 24 months not as much changes for a child. One of the reasons for avoiding the agencies was the age restrictions that meant we were spreading ourselves too think and not providing good care or ideal learning environment for anyone. Being able to concentrate on just infant/toddler or just preschool makes it much safer for everyone.

[Rachael]

You also have to consider cost of living when you look at the fees we are charging. I just heard on CBC the other day that Ontario and Alberta are the provinces with the highest cost of food and gas. Housing may also be more expensive.

And then look at the salaries and taxes. I've had people come here from Alberta and return within 6 months because they can't afford life here. Yes, our costs of living might be less but do you know we are the highest taxed province in the country?

Food costs here are crazy. For two sons, myself and my day care, I pay over $1000 a month in food. Milk is $6.69 for 4 litres. A loaf of bread begins at $2.89. Three whole chickens in Costco is $36.00.

Gas here has gone down recently so since the last couple of weeks it's $1.20. Until recently it was around $1.36.

We have one power company, NS Power. My budget plan (payments spread evenly over the year) is $260.00 a month.

Taxes are close to 40% here when you consider PST = 15% and income taxes. We are also taxed on taxes. LOL

Alberta doesn't have any PST which is a massive saving in itself. It also has free health care. I pay $279.80 a month - that gives me 80% of prescription drugs up to $500 per year. It also gives me $500 in dental coverage and after that, they will pay 60% for the next $700. My plan anniversary date is June. For two teens, I've paid out over $500 in dental costs and have a teen whose wisdom teeth are coming out at the end of the month. Despite the insurance, that'll cost me another $2,300.00.

Yes - houses are cheaper here but that's about it. Houses bought on salaries that are a mere portion of other provinces which is why, our young adults are headed West.

[Rachael]

Here you go...by province...now tell me NS is cheaper to live in than Ontario or Alberta. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/cpis01j-eng.htm

[Rachael]

You might find this interesting too...http://www.topix.com/forum/ca/nova-scotia/T3LCQD0HJ1S76S0M1


I do wish this myth about the East Coast being cheap would go away because it is entirely a myth.

[daycaremom9]

Another question for people to answer please is the definition of school age. The problem we are having here in Ontario with the rule changes is that children enter care at age 1 because of year long maternity leave and start school at 3 3/4 (ie if a child turns 4 before the end of December they can start school that September so youngest would be 4 months shy of turning 4 when starting school). That is only a 2-3 year window for children needing full time care. The schools also offer a large amount of before and after care for school age children. The more you restrict the available pool of children the harder it is to maintain career status in childcare.

Wow, the children go to school sometimes before the age of 4?! That's rediculous, no wonder you Ontario daycare providers are getting so up in arms. Here the children start kindergarten at the age of 5.

[Rachael]

Rachael, it's a pretty generalized statement to say that Ontario's fees are $10-$15 higher than yours. In Toronto maybe, but I'm in Belleville, a city of 50,000, and I charge between $30-$35, depending on age/hours. You can't be $10-$15 below that. Even Ottawa is between $35-$50/day, depending on where you are. It's the huge cities, Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, that have massively inflated daycare costs. The vast majority of us are pretty much in line with the rest of the country.

Bear in mind - Halifax IS A CITY so it's fair to compare city rates. It's the capital of NS, it's where the work is, and it's the only main airport in the Maritimes.

I am the top level at $35.00 in the city. Outside the city it's around $25 a day. There's people just 15 mins outside Halifax charging $22 a day with snacks and lunch for 6am until 6pm, with receipts!

Direct cut and pastes from local Kijiji Ads and a local FB page...

"My name is Tammy and I have been taking kids into my home for over 8 years. I currently have one or two spots available either full or part time. I provide lunch and two snacks per day and charge $25 for full days and $15 for half days. If you have any questions or would like more information please let me know."

"Starting in July 2015 I will have 3 spots available in my home for childcare. I've decided to be a stay at home mom with my 3yr old boy and my 3month old girl. $25 a day will include all meals and snacks (breakfast and lunch) crafts and lots of activities for all ages, indoor and outdoors. I'm 28 yrs old and have Studied Human Services Educational Support and have lots of experinece with children of all ages. I'm located in Newport Station just a few minutes outside Windsor. Please contact me for more information!"

"Fun and Reliable Childcare
Hi everyone. My name is Tania and I am offering childcare within my home. I am a mother of 3 lovely ladies and have 15+ years childcare experience.
I am located in Shearwater and my home is smoke free. I have a fenced in yard, and large activity area within my home.
I am offering spots for both Fulltime and Partime care. I offer semi-structured care, included will be various activites, outside playtime, crafts and nap/quiet time. I will also be including 2 snacks and lunch in my rate for full time. I am looking to care for children from infants to 5yrs.
My rate is daily $22 for Fulltime and part-time would be $15 per day.
Childcare is something I am passionate about and so happy to be able start this venture and maybe create it into something more. If you need someone to help you out with your childcare needs please feel free to contact me to get more information.
Thanks
Pictures of my home in comments!"

"Looking for childcare? Look no further! on Kijiji http://www.kijiji.ca/…/looking-for-childcare-loo…/1021791431

Looking for childcare? Look no further! | child care | City of Halifax | Kijiji
i am offering part-time, full-time or before/after school care from my lower sackville home. $25/day or $12...
WWW.KIJIJI.CA"

So your $35 for outside the city rates, less our $22-$25 for outside the city rates, is indeed a difference of between $10-$15 as stated.

I'm in the city boundaries hence I am $35 and as you said, for other cities, even Ottawa it would be between $35 and $50.

Inidentally, compare the cost of living in Halifax and Ottawa and then consider our income levels.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?c ountry1=Canada&city1=Halifax&country2=Canada&city2=Ottawa

http://lisaschuyler.com/index.php/2011/08/27/it-is-expensive-to-live-in-nova-scotia/

[sunnydays]

Rachael, I just have one question...how do you manage to make ends meet??? I don't think I could be a daycare provider under the conditions you described. It is a hard and important job and we all deserve to be able to make a decent living doing it. I understand why you don't sympathize with us in Ontario...but maybe instead of being happy that we are being dragged down to your level...you and others in provinces where things are tough could fight for some changes so that you could be brought up to a level where you could actually make a decent living doing what you love. I don't think it's too much to ask.

[superfun]

I understand how difficult it would be to have to make these adjustments. If I were in your shoes I would be doing the exact same thing. However, the more I hear about your agencies, and the licensing rules, the more I appreciate the system in Manitoba.
To me as a complete outsider in this situation, it seems like everyone should be fighting for a licensing system run properly, and totally get rid of agencies. I get to offer my families daycare for $18 -20 /per day. If a family meets subsidy requirements, they pay me $2/day and the province sends me the difference. And every 3 months, I get an operating grant based on the number of spots I'm providing. So it puts me right back in line (income-wise) with providers charging $30/day. So I'm making more money than I was when I was private (and charging 30-35), with the way it worked out I'm able to have 4 paying preschool/infant spots, instead of two. My oldest daughter is in school full time but I wouldn't have been able to fill her spot without being over. Now she's using a school age spot and I can have a paying family in her place.

[torontokids]

I have said this before but I'll say it again. I don't know how anyone does this job for $25-30 a day. I am doing this because I want to be home with my kids but I don't think it would have interested me (or been financially manageable) at that fee. I charge $60 per day and I keep my number at 4 kids plus my daughter (my other daughter is now in JK). I'm not embarrassed at what I charge. I live downtown Toronto (have a $450, 000 mortgage, which was entry level price for a semi detached house 6 yrs a go), I have excellent credentials and I am market rate for the neighbourhood. I couldn't afford to pay that fee either when both my girls required care.

[superfun]

I don't know how the province decided the amount to pay in operating grants per spot, but I know it worked out for me when I did the math, and put my income back in line with the going rate around here. I do know that the operating grant was recently increased, and I believe it's supposed to increase again, but I never believe these things until it happens. I would assume that if the going rate around here was $60, then my provincially regulated fees would also be higher, or the grants increased accordingly.
That actually makes me appreciate the manitoba system more, because we have so much flexibility. If I wanted to be licensed, and have 5 preschool/infant spots, rather than 4, but I didn't want to charge the set rates, I can still do that. I could have set my own fees and not receive funding from the province.

[5 Little Monkeys]

I'm in MB and while I don't agree with the ratio rules, there isn't much I can do about it. I have spoke with head office and I have emailed and I encourage all parents when I can to do the same (to email and ask them to relook at the ratio rules and the age restrictions). With ON looking at decreasing their ratio, I can't see MB increasing theirs anytime soon though. It's unfortunate because I do think that no matter where you live and no matter what the rules are there will always be providers who run illegally. We could be allowed 12 kids and there will still be the ones who take 13 because "what's one more?" So while I appreciate the concept behind the rules, I do agree that they mean nothing. There are some providers who are more than capable of providing quality care for more than they are allowed and there are providers who shouldn't even have one child in their care.

I'm also curious as to what the consequences are for providers who run illegally in other provinces? Here in MB, there really isn't a huge consequence and I believe this is why there are so many who go over their numbers. If reported and caught, they are shut down immediately that day but they can re-open the next day as long as they are following ratio. A friend of mine in another city has a friend who was reported.....twice!! She runs illegally until she's caught, goes down in numbers for a bit and than starts to take on more kids again.

I also don't think it matters where we are or the cost of living.....if any one of us was told we had to immediately go down a child or two, that would be a huge loss of income. Yes of course the cost of living is more in downtown TO than it is here in MB but the loss of income is still the same. That is still a bill or two that now has the potential to not be paid.

Even though I don't like the MB ratio's (for private or licensed) I am grateful I live here because my cost of living is low, my 4 paying spots (at $32/day) bring in more than enough for me to live on and it works for us. I am also extremely lucky to be mortgage free though. However, if I had to drop a child that would annoy and scare me too!! Heck, that is part of the reason why I don't have my own child yet lol. I can't afford to pay my own daycare bill :)

[Rachael]

Rachael, I just have one question...how do you manage to make ends meet??? I don't think I could be a daycare provider under the conditions you described. It is a hard and important job and we all deserve to be able to make a decent living doing it. I understand why you don't sympathize with us in Ontario...but maybe instead of being happy that we are being dragged down to your level...you and others in provinces where things are tough could fight for some changes so that you could be brought up to a level where you could actually make a decent living doing what you love. I don't think it's too much to ask.

How do I manage to make ends meet? By going without, like the rest of the Province! LOL You are forgetting that the options you have, we don't. Seasonal lobster fishing, seasonal scallop fishing, IT industry which earns half of the major cities - hence the employment migration West. We manage because we have to!

If you have to pay mortgage to keep your house, power to heat it, water to drink/wash, property taxes, insurance, etc then you learn to get rid of things that are wants not needs - many families have ONE car or use public transport if it's available in their area (not all areas have it), you cook at home, you don't have expensive clothes, your minimize outgoings.

We haven't had a vacation in over 10 years, I don't smoke or drink or go out unless it's for a birthday meal for one of my son's. Christmas my budget is $200 per child MAX, birthday's it's $100. Horrible as it is to say, because I have no family here, I only have to worry about myself and my two sons. Essentially, I get up work, pay my bills and go back to bed.

When my husband died, we had only been here a year and therefore I didn't have the connections which you'd normally hope for in that situation. I was determined to keep my children in the house, in the community, and be here for them which I had been as a stay at home parent. There are only so many changes children can manage at once and having moved continents and lost a parent, I was determined to minimize the others.

I am lucky in the sense, my mortgage is manageable compared to renting prices - bear in mind, we have more than 4 universities, so rental demand is high and expensive. I had to keep the house at all costs or we'd have been in serious trouble.

If I quit the day care and went to work outside the house, I'd be on minimum wage for the first few years anyway - simple, it wouldn't cover the bills if I had min wage x 40 hours or less as here, the min wage jobs are often part-time. By running the day care although the money is awful, I do know that I can deduct a certain percentage of household bills. Without that, I wouldn't make ends meet. If I earning min wage outside the house and wasn't able to claim a percentage of our power, water, etc, I'd have been on the streets years ago.

We make it work because there's no other option - and I am not the only one facing these challenges. I know plenty of two adult households here in the exact same situation.

And - you are rather twisting my words to say I am HAPPY you are being put in the same situation. If you look back, I said it was hard to sympathise with Ontario providers concerns.

Right now, Bill 10 is a maybe. It hasn't passed. So you are facing the potential of the challenges which are our reality. You might be placed in the same situation that the rest of the country is in. I did not once say I was happy your income would be cut but I did say, and stand by my comment, that it's hard to sympathise when we've been it that situation for years. Essentially, you've had it good for a long time, but no one seems to say "Oh well, compared to everyone else, we've had a good run. Now I guess we are in the same boat as the others".

I'm sorry but some people in the wealthier provinces are under this illusion that their costs of living are higher, the client base is only available for a few short years, that Bill 10 will make it impossible to earn a living - and there is the expectation that the whole country is concerned about Bill 10 and it's effects. The reality is, your costs of living are actually far lower than many poorer provinces, our client base is only available for the same time span just for different reasons, we deal with higher turnover and so less stable client bases because of the employment migration out of province too.

As I said, I didn't state I was happy about you being in the same situation but it's is hard to be sympathetic when you are merely being brought into line with the rest of the country - and it's not even a certainty.

Interesting that you view it as "being dragged down" vs the playing field being evened.

It's quite a vicious comment that you view yourself as higher than the rest of us - but very telling.

More so, twisting your own view that we should be more sympathetic to your situation - I didn't see you petitioning for changes for the rest of the county to be brought up to Ontario's level - only when it's you coming down is there noise and concern and expectation we are all sympathetic to your cause. Perhaps, if I'd seen an equal amount of concern for the rest of us being on these limits prior to Bill 10, I'd feel differently.

[playfelt]

In all of the discussions of the changes in Ontario what is getting lost is the fact that it is "CHANGES". People got into daycare knowing what the rules were and made a family budget and made the move to home daycare knowing how their family would be impacted. Now the rules are changing and that is what the protest is about more than what the changes are too. I know other provinces have some even stricter rules but you knew those going in and could decide if it was the right decision for your family. If the new rules had been in place in Ontario the providers now facing closing their doors because of the unplanned loss of income due to lost spaces would never be happening.

[sunnydays]

Rachael...I am sorry if you have misunderstood my point completely. I did not once say (nor do I believe) that we in Ontario are better than the rest of you!! I am not even from Ontario originally. What I said actually, was that we ALL deserve to make a decent living because this is a hard and important job...I meant YOU deserve that too! Why should childcare be a lowly kind of profession? We are caring for children during their formative years...the most important years in their lives some would say. I am truly sorry that so many of you in other provinces are barely scraping by while working your butts off...that is NOT right! THAT was my point...not that we are "special" in Ontario. As Playfelt said, I opened my daycare knowing the rules and having done my calculations as to whether it is something I can do while helping to support my family. If the rules and fees were like they are in your area, I could not have opened a daycare at all as it just wouldn't have been feasible for me. I am not asking for your support. We in Ontario have been fighting VERY hard to get amendments to this Bill so that we can keep our businesses open and so that parents won't find themselves without daycare. If something like this were facing you in NS or elsewhere, I would like to think we would all rally support for you as well. One thing I have learned throughout this process, is that when we all band together, we really DO have a lot of power to change things. If parents and daycare providers in NS were to truly band together and fight like crazy like we are..who knows...maybe you could get some changes made eventually that would make it easier for you to survive. THAT was the point of my post...not to put you down personally or anyone else in other provinces. I have seen what power we have when we all speak out about something important. Imagine if all childcare providers across the country stood up and demanded better treatment? Don't we ALL deserve that?

[Rachael]

Rachael...I am sorry if you have misunderstood my point completely. I did not once say (nor do I believe) that we in Ontario are better than the rest of you!!

Yes you did ! LOL You said it right here :

[QUOTE=sunnydays;7070 1]...we are being dragged down to your level.

It's basic English comprehension. To consider yourself as being dragged down to the level of other provinces, is a clear indication that you consider yourself above (or better) than them.


we ALL deserve to make a decent living because this is a hard and important job...I meant YOU deserve that too!

Wow, that's very generous of you 'cause I sure haven't seen one single Bill 10 thread where it's included providers in Manitoba or PEI whose limits are even lower than those Bill 10 is suggesting. All I've seen is concerns about how Bill 10 affects Ontario Providers - and yes, I do fully understand it's an Ontario bill and that's my point - If you believed that we all deserve to make a decent living, why is no one voicing concerns about the other provinces just your own?


I opened my daycare knowing the rules and having done my calculations as to whether it is something I can do while helping to support my family. If the rules and fees were like they are in your area, I could not have opened a daycare at all as it just wouldn't have been feasible for me.

See below...



I would like to think we would all rally support for you as well.

And yet, no one has/does. That's what I find so offensive. Manitoba and
PEI have dreadful ratios and have had them for some time and so I am sure you can see, although you'd like to think people would rally, no one has. It's all well and good to say the words but it's the actions which count. Hence my point that Ontario providers have laid low and taken the good times and it's hard for us to be sympathetic now they are facing some of the issues every other province already has.

Personally, I'd like to see children care be a federal issue not provincial. I'd like to see the top us, funding etc across the country and I could even live with the amounts being a sliding scale based on cost of living - if it's really cost of living and not some antiquated view of the cheap life on the East Coast. However, the actions of those against Bill 10 aren't offering federal solutions merely provincial complaints.



In all of the discussions of the changes in Ontario what is getting lost is the fact that it is "CHANGES". People got into daycare knowing what the rules were and made a family budget and made the move to home daycare knowing how their family would be impacted. Now the rules are changing and that is what the protest is about more than what the changes are too. I know other provinces have some even stricter rules but you knew those going in and could decide if it was the right decision for your family. If the new rules had been in place in Ontario the providers now facing closing their doors because of the unplanned loss of income due to lost spaces would never be happening.

No - what is getting lost is that as mentioned by possibly yourself, the regs are out of date and needed changing. I think someone mentioned when they were written and there was a basic amendment in the 1980's. We can all agree that generations ago, children didn't have the rights they have now and were much more compliant and generally respectful that adults were authority figures and now, that's not the case. So with less compliant children, and more expectations about what is suitable for care, surely the numbers had to change.

I understand you got into this based on the numbers as they are but you also did so knowing that the regs had not been updated for a long time. I am sure, you also recognize that parenting today and providing child care is very different than it was. Change is the one certainty we all face.

Any industries workers can claim they got into that field based on the rules and regs at the time and the expectation of income based on the market place at that time, but surely you didn't expect no changes to ever come?

Every single field of employment has had rule changes, legislation changes and often that's affected income.

Think of long-distance drivers who but a few short years ago, could drive all they wanted and pull over when tired. Now, for the safety of all of us, they are mandated to take breaks every so often and indeed have tachometers which ensure they do. I am confident that also cost the industry money particularly the self-employed drivers with their own rigs, who based their income of travelling a set distance in a set time.

The examples of professions affected by change include ALL of them. I think, if the objections are that you got into this business with rules as they are and expected to always earn that, then your failure to consider that as unrealistic is just that - your failure.

I can think of one single industry which hasn't been affected by rule changes since the 80's - can you?

[bright sparks]

The fact that childcare isn't a federal issue is mind boggling to me. Just ridiculous. I don't see any justifiable reason why the rules are not the same country wide.

[Van]

very interesting to read
Being in the west and know how expensive everything is out here

I look after 4 children under the age of 3 and the ratio is 4 to 1 for a licensed
infant/toddler daycare

[sunnydays]

Rachael, by "dragged down to your level" I was referring to your overly restrictive and difficult regulations...which you yourself have said are VERY difficult to work within. And as for rallying to support you...have you rallied for yourselves? Because generally those affected are the ones who start to rally (as we are doing in Ontario) and then others can support their cause. I have not heard anything about your conditions or that you are fighting to have these changed. If I did hear of such rallies, I would be supportive of fellow childcare providers trying to better conditions for themselves and the children in their care.
And yes, every profession goes through changes. And if the changes are truly for the better and increase safety or make things better in some way, then change is good. However, in this case, Bill 10 is not going to make children safer. Statistics in Ontario show that the death rate in licensed daycare is actually higher than in unlicensed. We have an excellent safety record...those of us who are following the current regulations. The current regulations work just fine. What is needed is more enforcement of the rules in order to crack down on those who are running illegal, over-ratio daycares...they are the ones who are causing problems. This Bill unfairly targets all private daycare providers while doing absolutely NOTHING to improve child safety. All it will do is create a daycare shortage and increase in rates. In fact, in some ways, I may be better off...I will have less children but charge more...less work for the same money. But I am fighting this bill because that will be so unfair to families who can barely afford daycare as it is. It will force them to put their children in illegal daycare to save money...and the children will suffer. That is my main reason for fighting this bill.

[Rachael]

However, in this case, Bill 10 is not going to make children safer. Statistics in Ontario show that the death rate in licensed daycare is actually higher than in unlicensed. We have an excellent safety record...those of us who are following the current regulations. The current regulations work just fine. What is needed is more enforcement of the rules in order to crack down on those who are running illegal, over-ratio daycares...they are the ones who are causing problems. This Bill unfairly targets all private daycare providers while doing absolutely NOTHING to improve child safety. All it will do is create a daycare shortage and increase in rates. In fact, in some ways, I may be better off...I will have less children but charge more...less work for the same money. But I am fighting this bill because that will be so unfair to families who can barely afford daycare as it is. It will force them to put their children in illegal daycare to save money...and the children will suffer. That is my main reason for fighting this bill.

I think this is very naive.

Although as providers we have each proven ourselves capable of managing the children in our care, any reduction in numbers will always mean more attention on the fewer children and it's simple math that additional attention will result in fewer injuries.

Will all accidents be prevented ? No. Because accidents are just that - accidents - but no one can argue that any situation where one is supervising many means attention is divided and the possibility of injury is therefore greater.

As it stands now in Ontatio, as detailed in this very thread, carer's own children do not count and children over the age of 10 do not count, so theoretically, an Ontario carer can have unlimited children as long as they are her own and client children over age 10.

I hear the comments that care for older children is not in high demand but the rules as they are allow unlimited children provided they are the carer's own or older than 10. So a woman with 6 kids and a day care, has her hands fairly full, wouldn't you agree? That is a safety issue however infrequently it happens.

The death rate in any province for children in day care is low compared to schools, and a host of other community supervised groups. Not all safety related concerns are measured purely by fatalities.

But your logic is not logical.

Illegal day cares and those who operate over numbers will always be a concern BUT they will only be filled with clients who seek cheap care/inexperienced carers. Every province has a proportion of parents willing to pay cash rates for no receipt, just as every province has any service provider willing to work for cash under the table. Cash prices mean corners get cut with supplies in every single profession. This is not an issue that will go away regardless of if Bill 10 goes through. It's a separate issue entirely.

I do understand that Bill 10 will mean fewer children and therefore lower your income and reduce the places available from existing carers. I also understand that many who currently run day care's will decide it's no longer viable for them and close up. But we all know as quick as one good day care provider shuts her doors, others open.

I think it's very naive that you believe your reduced places will justify you increasing your fees to make this a viable business for you personally. Bottom line, parents will pay for child care what they can afford. It's unlikely young parents will be able to conjure up the additional fees you believe you will be forced to charge to compensate your income with fewer children.

Bottom line - if your service is worth $40 today it doesn't magically become worth $60 tomorrow. Clients are not responsible for picking up the short fall.

What I predict will happen, is some carer's will jack their prices to compensate for the reduced places believing parents will pay it because they have no choice. But clients ALWAYS have options. People are resourceful.

Some parents will split the work hours so one of them is always home.
Some parents will pull in extended family for help.
Some parents will go part-time and reduce their day care expenses.
Some parents will job share and exchange child-care responsibilities.
And yes, some will go to an illegal provider because financially they have no alternative.

But I think you are naive in the belief that demand will enable you to jack your prices. Although some parents would be able to afford the increase, others simply will not be able to. Unless every single provider jacks their prices, which is unlikely, you will price yourself out of the market and your places will likely sit empty for longer.

There is always someone willing to plug the gap when a service is in demand. Because of that, some carer's will continue to charge what they do now. Their places will be filled, yours will be empty - not because of the level of care you offer but because your fees will be so much higher.

There will likely be a period of more illegal day cares who soak up the access especially in the immediate aftermath. There will also be some new day care centres opening because someone will see the opportunity of scooping up all these children who were in private daycares who find themselves without a carer. Some parents will resort to grandparents and family.

I'm sorry but with your comments about increased fees, the effects on your business, how hard it will be for your personal financial situation with fewer children - I personally am not convinced that you are fighting this bill "because that will be so unfair to families who can barely afford daycare as it is. It will force them to put their children in illegal daycare to save money...and the children will suffer." I believe you are fighting this bill because of the direct effect it will have on your family income - as would I. And, that's fine and perfectly acceptable and understanding.

I think you and I will have to accept our differences in view in this subject - and that's fine too.