Just a vent...

[bright sparks]

I'm tired, close to burn out...xmas break off can't come quick enough, and really I just need to offload. I know there is no quick fix and I'm doing everything I can but some days, like today and most recently every day, I'd gladly trade this job in for anything else. Funny how 1 child can make or break the day, for everyone.

I have a 3 1/2 yr old boy, lovely kid who I have 4 days a week which for me is full time. I have been with this family for 5 years as I had their daughter, now in SK since age 1 also.

This family split a year ago and it has definitely had a significant impact on both kids. Father is very unstable and mom is having a hard time. I am friends with this mother and spend time with the three of them outside of daycare hours. She has never been a good disciplinary IMO, obviously everyone has different ways, and I think I am more sensitive to this as I have obviously invested a lot into these kids to see it almost always get undone. On my head be it for having a personal relationship with them too. I generally manage it but now her son is causing so much conflict, I've just about had it. He is your typical 3 year old and he is just acting out, I understand, but no matter what I do it's not getting better, in fact its actually getting worse. Mom is at a loss, and I think she is overwhelmed by so much guilt with the separation of the family it ends up preventing her further from putting her foot down with the kids. When the siblings are together they are so naughty, and need a good telling off, but she never does so they just carry on.

Here, he is running and bulldozing kids down. 22mth old bit a chunk out of his tongue last week because he got knocked down and yesterday the 3 yr old smacked his lip on the stare gate. Now whenever I leave the room to use the bathroom or prep drinks/snack or lunch, he has to come with me because I can not turn my back for a minute. He takes toys from other kids, usually involving an elbow jab to them and then doesn't play with the toys just holds on to it so no one else can have it. He wont take turns and after an hour today of asking to take turns, I said isn't it nice to share with our friends, and he turned around and said to me "no, it isn't"!! He is fantastic when he is one on one, or in a group he is centre of attention, but I'm not going to set every situation up like that because it's avoiding these situations not dealing with them by helping him learn. He is a little hyper so I try to take them out daily to burn some of that energy off, but I know this child really well and he is hyper, not just high energy. He is basically angry, grumpy or starts crying for a parent if he is not the centre of my attention. At pick up times he literally shouts over me talking to other parents, trying to gain my attention and I politely remind him to sit quietly on the step with the other children while I'm talking to someone else, but less than a minute later he is shouting again, resulting in grumpy child who then shouts and growls at the other parents. I've managed to get that under control but some days I find that he gets so much of my attention because of these things. Today I asked him to play independently, giving him some options which didn't involve me and he proceeded to shout that he doesn't want to play and doesn't want to read, and sat glaring at me, which I ignored but then because he isn't getting my attention, he starts to terrorize the other kids as mentioned above which then makes them cry and get upset.

Now I am not a push over, I am strict and very consistent with discipline. I give lots of positive reassurance and recognition, but I also don't let them get away with anything. Rules are rules and all kids seem to get with the program quickly. He has been great up until the separation and then in the last few months its becoming increasingly difficult and behaviour is becoming more of an issue. I'm sure its a combination of his age too and testing limits, especially when he has so many people he can manipulate and try to get his own way with due to them feeling guilty.

This whole situation makes for an incredibly difficult day and is starting to negatively impact the group as I have a nearly 2 year old who copies everything he does. I can't even do an activity with the group at the moment without him causing some kind of havoc. This kid stuck calculator buttons up his nose on Saturday and was in the hospital...he is 3 and a 1/2 and knows the difference between right and wrong but seems to be totally out of sorts in so many areas right now. It's like he is defiant just because. We manage for the most part, but this morning was particularly difficult.

When I relay back to his mother she is genuinely upset and disappointed but I think our differences in parenting are sometimes an obstacle because when she asks me what she should do, she doesn't take my advice. Don't offer the kid stickers and a freezy for sticking calculator buttons up his nose. That is not something worth rewarding because you feel mothers guilt about your son doing this. Don't repeat yourself a million times when your children fight with each other. Use a stern tone, physically remove them, offer consequences for there behaviour, not passive verbal pleads and bribes....I could go on and on. Up until recently he behaved differently here to at home because he knows I have zero tolerance, now he couldn't give a crap and while he is a lovely boy and I know it is obviously a rough time he is going through, it is growing more and more difficult to do this, day in and day out.

I just keep trying and hoping that each day will be better.

[Secondtimearound]

Yes !! Some days are just too much ! Sounds like you have a good handle on his behaviour and like you said just needed to get your frustrations out ! I've had days like this for sure !! I'm closing in less than two weeks and will really miss it !!
There's not a lot that can be done if the parent is not on board but stick to your rules and make him mind them . I've had parents say they wished their child acted the same at their house as mine !
I get frustrated with the treat thing !! Right now I have siblings that get a lollipop every day they behave at my house ! Why this bothers me ? They aren't my kids and it has helped in their behaviour but it's ....??
I've had days like yours too !!! Just telling it to others that "get it " makes you feel better !!!

[Fun&care]

That sucks bright. It really does only take one child to make things difficult. I had a difficult child this summer who made me want to quit this altogether. Then he left...and everything changed. I only wished I would have given him the boot sooner. His mother was also the type to seem genuinely concerned yet would turn around and not do much to help me out.

Maybe it's time to have a heart to heart with mom about everything you listed and start throwing some options at her like preschool, different daycare etc. maybe she would take you more seriously if you hinted or flat out told her how miserable he is making you?

[bright sparks]

I spoke to mum. Didn't get any real idea of how she was going to help manage his behaviour and I really didn't know what to suggest aside from zero tolerance, but I get the impression it was just a sheep staring back at me nodding. My idea of zero tolerance is in all likelihood different from hers. She said that when he is very grumpy she sends him to play on his own in his room. In some situations I'd be okay with that. Everyone has the right to be grumpy and directing a child to take some alone time is a good thing versus punishment for feeling that way. That being said, is she doing this after an incident too...who knows, but then there is the problem, there are little to no consequences. Being sent to your room to play with toys isn't a negative consequence in my opinion. Mum was really just speechless a lot as I told her while her son was walking round her in circles trying to rip her keys and lanyard out of her hand, while she clung on to them, instead of getting down to his level and taking control of the situation by telling him firmly that he must stop, and making him stop. Everything is a bribe or negotiation. And then every other weekend that they are dads place they pretty much spend their time being paraded round toy shops and return to mums place on the Sunday like its Xmas or birthday time with a bunch of new toys and sore bellies from junk food. It's no wonder the kids are all over the place, but mum needs to try something different to curb this behaviour with her son when it's effecting the others. She left my front porch saying, lets hope this phase passes quickly. Doesn't sound like much of an investment to work on behaviour changes SIGH!!

Lets just hope that today is a better day. It felt mildly better to vent but I'm unfortunately feeling pessimistic about it being any better today. I'm up early after a late evening at my daughters grade 8 high school open house and feeling zapped already. I'm going to rotate some toys and move the room round a little and have playdoh set up for arrivals. Hopefully just a simple change like that may start the day off more positively and hopefully we wont all be terrorized by him.

[Fun&care]

"Let's hope this phase passes soon." That is your red flag right there that she isn't admitting there is an actual PROBLEM here she just thinks she can wait it out. It doesn't sound like she is planning on doing anything at all....

Waiting around hoping that today will be better doesn't sound like a healthy option either bright. I don't know, but if it were me I would start thinking of an exit plan for this family...

[Other Mummy]

Vent away...that's what we are here for :) to support each other and bounce ideas of one another. I see how you are caught between a rock and hard place. You are friends with the family which makes it a whole other ball game.

You are not going to get any help from this family with his behaviour. If its really horrid, I would be tempted to end the friendship and let the dcb go. What else can you do?? Is he starting school in September? can you hold out until then? If his behaviour gets worse and he is hurting children then you might be forced into terminating him regardless.

Sorry you are dealing with this. :(

[bright sparks]

Vent away...that's what we are here for :) to support each other and bounce ideas of one another. I see how you are caught between a rock and hard place. You are friends with the family which makes it a whole other ball game.

You are not going to get any help from this family with his behaviour. If its really horrid, I would be tempted to end the friendship and let the dcb go. What else can you do?? Is he starting school in September? can you hold out until then? If his behaviour gets worse and he is hurting children then you might be forced into terminating him regardless.

Sorry you are dealing with this. :(

Yes he is off to school in September. Today has been much better, but it is frustrating not knowing what kind of day I'm going to have with his inconsistency.

[bright sparks]

"Let's hope this phase passes soon." That is your red flag right there that she isn't admitting there is an actual PROBLEM here she just thinks she can wait it out. It doesn't sound like she is planning on doing anything at all....

Waiting around hoping that today will be better doesn't sound like a healthy option either bright. I don't know, but if it were me I would start thinking of an exit plan for this family...

I think after investing so much into this child, just because its hard now doesn't really warrant giving up. He would benefit from two caregivers working together not being shuttled off to someone else when the going gets tough. He isn't intentionally setting out to hurt the other kids so it's not like that is his goal and I'm fighting to correct that behaviour. Yes obviously a red flag, which I acknowledged, when mom said she hopes it just passes. So what I ask you then, is what exactly do I say to this parent to get her on board with doing something beyond wishing it will get better? Any suggestions? She is at a loss and I'm not entirely sure what direct advice to give her beyond what I've already said. Something that just popped into my head was how so many people say "we don't have the right to tell a parent how to parent their child" which I tend not to agree with for the most part for these situations precisely. I do have the right to request and advise you that you should try x, y and z if your child's actions are effecting the wellbeing of others. So I'd love some advice on what folks think I should say because I am not about to throw the towel in on a rare 3 yr old spot for starters, a child I've had for nearly 3 years and a family I've dealt with for over 5. I think it would be much better to try and get through to her than looking for an exit plan. At least being friends with her means we can have a bit more of a frank conversation, that being said though, if she says she is trying her best, who is anyone to call her a liar? I ask her what she does in these situations but she basically lets them do what they like as long as they are happy and rough housing in her house is acceptable whereas in my daycare setting it is not. He is getting mixed signals from left right and centre. This child needs consistency not someone else to adapt to. I also need to figure out how to make this work, because financially I can't lose that much money so I'm not looking to terminate just yet.

[bright sparks]

Vent away...that's what we are here for :) to support each other and bounce ideas of one another. I see how you are caught between a rock and hard place. You are friends with the family which makes it a whole other ball game.

You are not going to get any help from this family with his behaviour. If its really horrid, I would be tempted to end the friendship and let the dcb go. What else can you do?? Is he starting school in September? can you hold out until then? If his behaviour gets worse and he is hurting children then you might be forced into terminating him regardless.

Sorry you are dealing with this. :(

She is the only daycare parent I have ever been friends with. It happened very gradually and we have terrific boundaries which I am forever grateful for. She has never asked anything extra of me. This is just where we butt heads a little, although not by way of exchanging words but just our styles are different. I am strict and consistent and she totally respects that I do things my way at my house, but she seems to be constantly trying to appease her kids and feels guilty all the time. I can only give her advice, which may in fact not be right for her, but I can not make her change her ways. Even with her best intention she is human and not perfect. She likely is trying her best with everything that is going on but I'm just not sure how to word it when I talk to her about handling him and next steps with this current phase.

This little guys is very good when he has consistency. The minute daddy fails to collect as promised or its back to mums after a weekend of being spoilt rotten, it all hits the fan. How exactly can mom do anything to control her sons reactions to that stuff. I know she tries hard to maintain consistency but it's like she thinks damage control by way of bribery and pacifying them is her only option. Rarely does she say no either. Tough love I say, but everyone has their different way. Nowadays, parents don't even shout at their kids. Obviously for every little thing, shouting isn't helpful, is cruel and becomes the predictable norm, but when he is super naughty why can't she try the shock effect. Put a bit of fear into him, maybe that's what he needs, maybe he doesn't but what she is doing now sure as hell isn't working.

[Fun&care]

Since you are friends, have you tried talking honestly about how you think her parenting (or lack of) is a result of guilt from the separation as you mentioned? That because she has not stepped up to the plate your days are very difficult with this child?

I feel for you. It sucks that you are stuck like this for financial reasons and because of the friendship.

[bright sparks]

Since you are friends, have you tried talking honestly about how you think her parenting (or lack of) is a result of guilt from the separation as you mentioned? That because she has not stepped up to the plate your days are very difficult with this child?

I feel for you. It sucks that you are stuck like this for financial reasons and because of the friendship.

The money is the bigger issue. My business has to come first so if she were to be upset by some truths I'm not so concerned. I did talk to her yesterday about the inconsistencies with her ex and the separation and how this is effecting him. It's not that she doesn't discipline at all, its just she has got to her breaking point I think that has her in survival mode and now the ineffective methods she uses when a child has been bribed x amount of times, its going to stop working eventually requiring bigger and better "prizes". Dad was supposed to collect Monday, and he cancelled. Little guy was surprisingly okay, but she said when she collected her daughter from after school club that she kicked off devastated and screamed uncontrollably at her that she didn't want her but wanted daddy. Put yourself in her shoes for a moment, that's a real life heap o crap right there to try and manage. I can understand that taking the easy route sometimes is how she manages. Now she has to be a hardass with kids who are just emotionally in tatters at present, but each time they go to his place, everything is undone. I don't think her lack of disciplining is the cause of this behaviour or the biggest part of the problem. That said, I do think it's all she can do to help him, by tightening things up on her end and being firmer with him, but when she has zero support, and sometimes goes weeks without any kind of support from others, it's very easy for me to demand it of her, or expect it, or ask her to make these changes, but very different in her reality to make them happen. I am going to talk to her again at the end of the week just to touch base on how the rest of the week went with him and then makes some suggestions, what I do not know. Both her kids have a bit of an attitude problem as a result of dad, and her daughter already has some social issues included OCD which mom feeds into in order to keep her calm. I think she really is doing the best she can even if that's not enough.

When her son was in hospital Saturday, I met her there and collected her daughter and took her home, made dinner, bathed her and put her to bed. Bedtime was a story and lots of reassurance because she missed mum and her brother. We had lots of snuggles, but then she needed to look out her front window to check there were no bad people or animals there that could hurt her!!! She has done this since about age 2ish scared of shadows and lights so needed reassurance of what as outside and this was the first I had heard of this being more than that now. I settled her without this as to encourage this isn't helpful, yes I'm sure everyone will have a difference of opinions on this, but the fact is, she will learn there are no bad people out there in a healthy manner if she doesn't look and night after night comes to realize that everything is fine without needing to look in order to settle her anxiety. She lay down in bed, after plenty of reassurance again that she was safe and I was just outside the door and she was fine. 15 minutes later mom comes in, even though she is settled in bed she requests to look outside and rather than mom saying well its past bedtime and you are already in bed for the night she lets her get up and go through the motions. It's like they call the shots and mom offsets the guilt by for the most part giving in to them. She does try to discipline when they misbehave but something like this she sees as no big deal, why not. She doesn't see that they rule the roost and she lets them. This is just one of the examples, so not so much bad parenting, goodness no, but her best right now is this but its extremely counterproductive. I feel for her and I think why I'm at a loss is because I can sympathize with her situation and I don't really know how she manages as it is with them. It's always so easy to say we would act a certain way, but until you are in that situation who knows.

In the past when she has asked what she should do, I have given her my honest opinion and said that she needs to change her tone, even raise her voice which isn't the same as screaming and shouting, and make him very aware that you are upset and angry with his bad behaviour. Whether she has done this or not, who knows, but I doubt it. She doesn't seem like she has it in her. She was devastated at the hospital and said she broke down later that night when they were both asleep. I said what on earth for? He was fine and got sorted out very quickly and she said she blamed herself. I made it clear that he is 3 1/2 and knows this isn't okay so he is the one in the wrong, not her. Yes he is 3 but he isn't stupid...except obviously on that day lol

Thank God its not every day!

[Secondtimearound]

It sounds like this mom has a lot on her plate !! As moms we tend to blame ourselves for how are kids are acting and I think she pretty much is demonstrating this ! I can see how by going in to her daughter and letting her go thru her routine feels to her like she's fulfilling a need her child has as opposed to the child freaking out she wanted daddy to pick her up instead of mom .
I can't imagine being a single parent!! It truly must be exhausting !! She is in a huge life change !!
I think it will come down to you , even though you are friends , you have to do what is best for you and your family . If you decide to keep him in your care I feel you must accept you are not going to get any reinforcement from her . No matter what her life looks like , that you can't control , what you can control is how involved you would like to be in it !
I feel badly for both sides here !

[bright sparks]

It sounds like this mom has a lot on her plate !! As moms we tend to blame ourselves for how are kids are acting and I think she pretty much is demonstrating this ! I can see how by going in to her daughter and letting her go thru her routine feels to her like she's fulfilling a need her child has as opposed to the child freaking out she wanted daddy to pick her up instead of mom .
I can't imagine being a single parent!! It truly must be exhausting !! She is in a huge life change !!
I think it will come down to you , even though you are friends , you have to do what is best for you and your family . If you decide to keep him in your care I feel you must accept you are not going to get any reinforcement from her . No matter what her life looks like , that you can't control , what you can control is how involved you would like to be in it !
I feel badly for both sides here !

I'm just going to keep trying and supporting them as much as I can. Yesterday was a really bad day and I needed to vent. Today was a total opposite of yesterday so I savour those days. I'm just going to keep trying with him by being consistent and keep communicating with her like I would anyone regardless of her situation. Even though we are friends and can have a frank conversation, I'm going to have some heart and not beat her down when i think she's doing the best she can given who she is and her current circumstances. I just need to be prepared to draw the line should he get completely out of control at which point he would for sure have to go. Hopefully it won't come to that.

[sandylynn]

This is actually a very simple solution. You need to remove this child from your daycare BEFORE someone else's child get very hurt.

[sandylynn]

Very easy solution...you need to remove this child from your daycare BEFORE someone else's child gets very hurt. p.s. That's why I DO NOT socialize with ANY parent outside of daycare

[bright sparks]

This is actually a very simple solution. You need to remove this child from your daycare BEFORE someone else's child get very hurt.

So every time a child is hurt through inappropriate play we should terminate? Have you not read any of my posts or do you just choose to ignore the whole picture? These were isolated incidents and the hurting other children is not chronic and is without malice. He is a child that needs consistent support and I have been able to accommodate his needs while keeping the rest of the group safe. That's the best solution not terminating when things get tough. He isn't throwing hard objects at others, biting hitting or likewise, he is playing too rough and we are working to get it under control. It would be a disservice to this child to terminate over a normal developmental issue especially considering the circumstances. The children in my care are at no great risk of being injured by this child more than any other having a bad day. Jeez, your solution doesn't sound like the right thing but a cop out. Each to their own but for me that's what your suggestion sounds like. Everyone has their limits for sure and the safety of the whole group is my top priority. Easy solution is to pass the book to others to deal with a difficult task. I'll be sure to have invested everything into all children in my care before I give up!

[bright sparks]

Very easy solution...you need to remove this child from your daycare BEFORE someone else's child gets very hurt. p.s. That's why I DO NOT socialize with ANY parent outside of daycare

Well good for you. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with me having a relationship with this parent outside of daycare. If anything the fact that I do gives me far more insight into the reality of what's going on to cause this phase in his life and helps me by preventing me from just jumping to conclusions and assuming I know what's going on when generally we are wrong. Again, did you not read my entire posts? I'm guessing not otherwise you would have read that my friendship comes second to business and I have no issue being honest with her even at the expense of our relationship, as I have done and that's part of why it works because we have firm boundaries and respect for each other in our different roles.

I would have dealt with every parent equally, the only thing different in this situation is that I know extensive back story to the situation which offers a lot of explanation for this child's behaviour issues currently. Also again, had you read my posts in their entirety, or acknowledged them at least, I was not asking for a solution and said from the start that this was merely a vent, massive one at that, after a bad day. The only thing I've asked for in the entire thread is what I could offer in regard to advice to the mother that I may not have already.

Perhaps I should write a new policy that children are terminated after their first offence of physical injury.....no actually I won't.