Bill 10 has passed - law as of Jan. 2016

[CrazyEight]

Just so all Ontario providers are aware, Bill 10 passed in it's Third Reading today. The liberals and the NDP voted in favour of it. Expected, but still disgusting.

It still has to have Royal Assent, which can happen anytime in 2015 apparently, but it will become law as of Jan. 2016 unless something very unexpected happens.

Lisa MacLeod (PC MPP for Nepean-Carleton, and one of our biggest supporters) has said she is planning on bringing forth a Private Member's Bill to amend Bill 10. As of now, we don't know what that is, when it will happen, or if it can do anything to change this. We'll have to wait and see, but as of now, come Jan. 2016, ALL Ontario providers will have to abide by the new restrictions, or face fines of up to $250,000.

To recap, the 3 main changes to Ontario providers will be:

1) Raising the age of a "child" from age 10 to age 13. This means that any children over age 10 that you have in care will now count as one of your 5 allowed children.

2) All providers will have to count their own children under age 6 in their total allotment of 5 children. The LIBs did make one concession in amendments, and have said that providers' own 4 and 5 year olds in FDK WON'T count, but only if the provider has LESS than 2 under 2. So to make your own 4 or 5 year old not count, you can only have ONE under age 2 in care. We also have no idea if that's just while they're in school, or if that also includes PA days, Christmas and Summer break, etc. That will have to be cleared up when they hammer out all the regulations, so stay tuned for more on that in the coming months.

3) All providers will now have to abide by 2 under 2, including provider's own children. If you will have more than 2 children under age 2 after Jan. 2016, you will have to terminate the extras. There has been no mention of a "grace period" (for example, you have 3 under 2 for only a month until someone has a bday or something) so as far as we know, it's a strict 2 under 2 rule.

Any more questions, fire away, there's a few of us here who know WAY too much about this legislation now!!

[jodaycare]

Bloody NDP! Guess they really are in bed with the Liberals!

[mickyc]

Well sorry to hear ladies. I am from Manitoba where private are only allowed 4 (including our own children with only 2 under 2) and licenced are allowed 8 (age restrictions). For myself I think the government should have the same rules for providers all across Canada, the whole things is stupid to me.

I guess one positive note is that they have give a full year's notice to the changes so it isn't like you have to begin terminating immediately. Good luck to you all in making the necessary changes to your businesses.

[cfred]

Thanks mickyc. I think the ratios are a bit strict across the board. Our own safety was nearly impeccable (among the compliant providers). There was one accidental death...one too many....in independent care, 5 in illegal and 2 in daycare centres. We know this model works among the compliant. The short fall was in government oversight. But, alas, changes are coming. Rachael got quite bent out of shape in another thread because we're not happy with these new rules, likening us to spoiled lottery winners who were upset that it wasn't set for life. I guess, I'm just not sure why everyone's in such a race to the bottom. I think the standards need to change across the country, to make this a sustainable living for everyone across the board. It had never even occurred to me that people in other provinces might look at my modest income with envy.....until that particular thread. So aside from being lambasted by a complete and hostile stranger, I'm grateful for the eye opening experience. Daycare needs revamping everywhere. I'd love to see providers collaborate across the country for a standard system for all, that we can actually support ourselves with. With the upcoming federal election, I suspect we may get a chance.

[Daycare123]

If this hasn't been through "royal absent " has it passed? Should I be informing families / fee adjustments etc?

[cfred]

No, I think Royal Assent is this summer, I believe. The bill won't come into play until Jan 2016. In my mind, it's business as usual for people I have on already as I'm full for at least another 2.5 years. Once this group works its way through, my rates will increase...unless I can maintain the ratios. If it all goes well with my staggered group, I'll remain the same. I guess just gauge your own situation so far as rate increases. I don't have empty spaces sitting, so no increases for me. But, had the bill come into play in September, I would definitely have increased for new clients and onwards. It's not a bad idea to inform parents, especially if you need to let any of them go...gives them time to find something else.

[ttremble88]

My question is, is it safe to assume that it will pass as is. I want to give my families as much notice as possible because I will have terminate a number of families due to having a bunch of 'puzzled in' part timers.

[cfred]

Yes, you can assume that. I doubt there will be any changes. Part timers will likely have a great deal of trouble finding placement in the future. Most providers I've seen have said they'll not take on part time any longer. I went completely full time more than a year ago, so is a non issue for me.

[dodge__driver11]

Cfred, will you have to give notice?

[cfred]

No, I'm fine. I was worried about it being a Sept start, but since it's January, all my kids will be in range. Everyone will be in range by January 1st, so I'm ok for the next 2-3 years...barring any pregnancies. But so far as I know, at least one client is planning her pregnancy around my availability (sad, I know) and I'd be surprised if the other gave up her space for mat leave. I have 2 already paying full time for mat leave spaces to ensure the new babies have a spot with me. We're going to be fine, indefinitely....unle ss universal daycare comes in...then I'm buggered....unless they let me license.

[cate]

with respect to the '2 under 2' rule, what if there are two adult providers on site? My husband and I run a home daycare together, so we're both here. Are we able to have 4 under 2 then? Or would we still need to be 2 under 2?

[Rachael]

with respect to the '2 under 2' rule, what if there are two adult providers on site? My husband and I run a home daycare together, so we're both here. Are we able to have 4 under 2 then? Or would we still need to be 2 under 2?

If it's anything like the rest of the country, the limits are actually per address, not per adult. So 5 children between you, no more than 2 under 2 - NOT 4 under 2 even though there are 2 adults because number of adults is irrelevant.

[playfelt]

No matter how many adults are present you can only have 5 daycare children. Under the new rules you will have specific ratios for those 5 and have to include your own preschoolers in that total. If you join a licenced agency some of them may be allowed to do the two caregiver model with additional children but it is still very unclear how that will work and so far even agencies are saying they are not interested in getting involved in that kind of thing.

[CrazyEight]

Even under the current laws (the DNA) it is 5 children per PREMISES, not per provider. It doesn't matter if there's one provider or five providers - there can be no more than 5 daycare children in care at one time.

Under the new laws, it will continue to be 5 children per premises, with more limits - in your situation, it doesn't matter if you and your husband are there at the same time - you can't have more than 5 at a time, and now any of your own children under 6 will count in that total of 5, with no more than 2 under 2 total, not 2 per provider.

[Junelouise]

Well, I am glad I am retiring in another year or so. My husband is retiring next December. I have mostly part time. One is 11 years old, so the age 13 hike will affect me. I have nobody under the age of 2 and most will be 4 by December 2015 and in full time junior kindergarten. I will only have one 3 1/2 year old. My dilemma is...do I bail at the end of December and maybe leave my school kids in the lurch, or finish at the end of August, 2015 and tell my parents to find other arrangements for the school year. I really would like to keep the one 3 1/2 year old until the end of June 2016 (his dad is a teacher) but is it worth it for one kid when my husband is retired? If I decide to wait until December to quit with my husband, I would give parents at least 2 months notice and they can leave as soon as they find alternative arrangements. I am really tired of dropping off and picking up school kids at different schools and in bad weather.

June

[torontokids]

Well, I am glad I am retiring in another year or so. My husband is retiring next December. I have mostly part time. One is 11 years old, so the age 13 hike will affect me. I have nobody under the age of 2 and most will be 4 by December 2015 and in full time junior kindergarten. I will only have one 3 1/2 year old. My dilemma is...do I bail at the end of December and maybe leave my school kids in the lurch, or finish at the end of August, 2015 and tell my parents to find other arrangements for the school year. I really would like to keep the one 3 1/2 year old until the end of June 2016 (his dad is a teacher) but is it worth it for one kid when my husband is retired? If I decide to wait until December to quit with my husband, I would give parents at least 2 months notice and they can leave as soon as they find alternative arrangements. I am really tired of dropping off and picking up school kids at different schools and in bad weather.

June

Personally, it sounds like you're done. If you can retire financially then do it! I wouldn't keep just one kid especially if my husband was retired. I would feel like I am missing out and it would make me dread work. My husband wouldn't want kids around all the time if he was retired.

You could always let the B&A kids know you are done end of Aug 2015 so they have ample time to find B&A care. If you want to stay in business then I would get a second or third full time kid. I would also close at the end of the school year (with lot's of ample notice) and the kids can go to day camps for the summer which would be good prep for them anyways going to school in the fall. Enjoy your summer at least!

[playfelt]

Depends too what your hubby plans to do with his retirement. Is he looking to go to a warmer place for Jan/Feb ie a nice extended vacation in which case you will want the kids gone so you can go too. Is there work that needs doing around the house he will do over the winter meaning you could still finish out the school year. I am assuming the 3 1/2 year old won't go to school till they have turned 4 meaning you have another full year with them. Be sure the parents are ok with the child being on their own for that year as there is no sense in giving up another opportunity only to find parents pull the child to put them into a centre or another larger group.

My hubby retires in March at age 60 (military mandatory age) but is looking for another job for the next 5 years so I am sort of planning my daycare to last another 5 years and then will be assessing it on a year by year basis depending on what he does.

[dodge__driver11]

While I can understand how you feel adaycarelady, you are right to say that people will get greedy. I ALWAYS SEE over ratio providers advertising saying right out there for everyone to see that they have 2 adults in the home, and it is okay to take more kids. I post the table that we have for provincial guidelines, and get flamed for pointing it out....

People accuse me of being greedy and a shit disturber, but the truth is the ratios are there for people that don't know their personal limits, and one bad apple makes it bad for everyone.

[momma2two]

Do before and after school children count for total numbers as well?

[CrazyEight]

Yes. ANY child under the age of 13 counts in your limit of 5, including your own children up to age 6.

[sandylynn]

So one does not have to worry about having 3 under 2 until January 2016....correct?

[cfred]

I've just answered this in the White Flowers thread. No, that isn't correct, entirely. Children that were IN CARE before Dec 4th, 2014 are fine. Children after are not, though we're not completely positive on when they are no longer fine. At first we thought it was immediate, then it was believed they were fine till Proclamation. I'm still not 100% sure, but I do know that they ARE NOT covered until Jan 2016.

The Ministry has not been terribly forthcoming with accurate information, so we kind of think they're confused as well.

[cfred]

Yep...just went onto FB and there's a thread about just this. Still just as much confusion. One provider has 4 letters from the Ministry stating that they're fine till Proclamation, others are told it's immediate. It seems that no-one, including the Ministry, has a clue what's going on.

Sigh.....like a well oiled machine.

Let's get Lisa MacLeod in and PCs back in office. I'm full up of the bloody Libs.

[cfred]

From Liz Sandals to a provider - have seen this from different providers.

"If a child care provider is providing child care on the day that the Child Care Modernization Act, 2014 received Royal Assent (December 4, 2014), then, with respect to those children receiving child care, the provider in question does not have to comply with the rules contained in s.6 of that Act (once s.6 comes into effect), which
• prohibit more than two children under two years of age; or
• require a provider to include his or her own children in determining the number of children cared for

until January 1, 2016, or a different date, if one is set out in a regulation.

In a scenario where a child care provider is not providing child care on the day that the act received Royal Assent, the provider would be required to comply with the Child Care and Early Years Act, 2014 when the act comes into effect upon proclamation.

In order to implement and clarify all the requirements under the new act, the government will be drafting a broad range of regulations. I would like to assure you that regulations under the act are subject to public consultation. I encourage you to participate in future opportunities to provide your input to guide this work.

An incremental phased process is planned to implement the provisions under the new act. As we move forward, the ministry will continue to engage and inform families and the child care and early years sector on changes under Bill 10."

You have to pay special attention to the section referring to 'a different date set out in a regulation'. Sneaky bitch.

[cfred]

From Heidi Higgins (co-founder CICPO) and I believe this came from CCPRN:


"So we are seeing a lot of confusion with regard to the new law under Bill 10. There is confusion around both the broad strokes and the finer points.

The broad strokes are any children who were IN YOUR CARE prior to the December 4th 2014 (or another date if one is set by regulation) are exempt until January 2016 - including your own children. Any children beginning care after December 4th must be in compliance immediately upon proclamation. (Edited for clarification.)

With regard to the finer points - which are the questions many of you are asking - they will be determined during the regulatory process which should take place in late February. This is the process during which the DETAILS and EXCEPTIONS are made with regard to the laws specified in the Bill. To that end we would like those of you with specific scenarios or questions to send them to us at cicpoottawa@gmail.co m with the subject line: Regulatory Process. Our goal is to filter them down to the most essential and problematic and bring them up during the regulatory meeting to see if we can negotiate some of them. For instance the business of your own children counting during the summer months. This makes no sense as few clients (aside from teachers) are going to want to make alternate care arrangements for the summer. These are the kinds of questions we need to ask and we are looking for your input. Please let us know your thoughts - but please keep them as concise as possible to reduce the amount of reading on our end

Hope this helps to clarify and give a little hope that there is still a chance for some changes to be made. I feel we are stuck with the 2 under 2 but maybe we can get some wiggle room in other areas. "

[cfred]

Any providers or parents who are being adversely affected by BILL 10 can send their stories to Karen at khsw@outlook.com to be forwarded to the Ombudsman. He is collecting this information for 3 months to see just how Ontario will be impacted by this flawed Bill 10.

[sandylynn]

Here's a question....if it were not for being on this site myself....I honestly do NOT believe I would know ANY of this information....I have not seen anything in writing....in the paper....on the news????? So how many home daycare providers are NOT AWARE OF ANY OF THIS

[cfred]

Yep, you make an excellent point. There are so, so many people who know nothing about it, providers included...but that won't make them any less susceptible to the $200,000 fine if caught out of compliance. The only public awareness campaign has been put forward by CICPO.

I just received an email from the ministry today indicating that compliance is necessary after proclamation and was expected to occur in the fall. This is, of course, different than the letter that went out last month. It seems they've gotten their shit together, finally.

So there you go.....hope that helps. Again, if you can pay to become a PC member ($10), you can get Lisa voted in. She's our advocate.

[Kim1985]

Im new at this, Im suppose to start my day care sometimes at the end of april 2015.

I said yes to a mom for her 1 year old and another mom for her 1 year old and her 3 year old. I was all set, that is all I wanted, 3 littles bundles to care for. :D ( + my own little boy who is now 8 months old)

Everything was going great for me, I was really enjoying the process of getting everything together for my daycare, from the paperwork, to the renovations and advertising to find childrens.... :)

Until this morning, when i read about Bill 10. WHAT?:blink: Where did that come from, I'v been doing research all over the place to make sure I was within the ratio, guidelines, recommendation etc.. I wanted to make sure I was on the line with everything regarding my daycare and I never saw this before today. :o

NOW I dont know what Im going to do or if I'll be able to find childrens over 2 years old? When your child is 2 years old chances are you already have a daycare...?:huh:

I really dont know how to find 2 years old.. anybody else in my situation?

[cfred]

Yep. Sorry I don't have better news for you. The fact that you WERE investigating and STILL didn't hear about this speaks volumes about how useless this government is. This whole thing has been a disaster right from the get go. I'm really sorry. It sucks for all of us. This is my sole source of income for raising my children. It sucks....all I can say, let's keep fighting.

[sandylynn]

Ya...Kim1985....look s like you can only take one 1 year old on....that sucks....I have to make a decision....when all this goes down...in Jan 2016....I will be in a position to take on a 1 year old (she is a past client) ....but I will still have a 3 1/2 year old that is only going to be with me til March 2016....they are moving ....here's my problem....I need to have the 3 1/2 year old leave by Jan. 1 (not March) so I can take the new baby on...I won't be able to keep the dck til the end of march as that will put me over 5 children for 3 months....soooo....I need to be selfish....3 years with the baby or 3 months with the other....I feel bad....but I have to look out for me!

[torontokids]

So based on what I read from this post, because I was in operation before the Bill was passed I am not impacted re: the 2 under 2 or my kids counting in the ratio until the Fall?

I have 3 interviews set up for my vacant spot (I have 4 plus my daughter). It sounds like I can accept one of these clients as my daughter won't count in my numbers until the fall. I am sure one of my daycare kids will be gone by the Fall (possibly April). Did I interpret things right?

[cfred]

All children in care before Royal Assent (Dec 4th) are fine until Jan 2016. All children brought in after Royal Assent must be compliant by Proclamation. So, your compliance relies on the ages of your children and when they came into care. If all your 2 under 2s were already in care before Royal Assent, you're fine till Jan 2016. But if any of them came in afterward, they've got to go as of Proclamation.

[Kim1985]

This will be my only income as well so its pretty stressful. I was layed off while on mat. Leave the company was sold. Thats when i decides to finaly make my move with my daycare.. but now that bill 10 is making that whole business a little bit more complicated and thats pRobably their intention to discourage somw of us from chosing that business...

But where will all those new mothers with a one year old ready to go back to work find care for theie babies? where i am from there is only 2 licensed daycare and they only take a few babies under 18 months. Before receiving my layed off letter in the mail i was trying to find a day care for my baby and i was unsuccesful.... so now its only gonna get worst for those mom... and not a lot of mothers can afford to quit their jobs to stay at home with baby until hes two years old?? Maybe the government will pay for two years of maternity........ �� ;)

[cfred]

Yep, I'm in the same boat. Single mother with this being my sole source of income. Stress doesn't sum it up.

The Libs are 'creating' more infant daycare spaces by messing about with the numbers and ratios in licensed centres. Infants will now be from 0-12 months (instead of 12-18 months) with a ratio of 3:1, max of 10 infants in one room. Toddlers now begin at 18 months at a ratio of 5:1 with a max of 15 in one room. So, just to clarify - The licensed sector ALREADY has a dismal safety record with a much, much higher mortality, injury and serious occurrence (fires, lost children, abuse, etc) rate than that of it's independent counterparts (us). So, to rectify the safety in childcare issues, the Liberals have INCREASED the ratios to the highest in the country in the licensed sector (you know...the ones with the crazy Auditor General's Report) and added a whopping 6 new inspectors - for the entire province of Ontario! AND, get this.....the agencies, who stand to gain the most benefit from this bill financially, WROTE THE POLICIES!!!!!!

Why more providers who were thrown under the bus by our government aren't spitting mad about this is beyond me. I truly don't get it. I've never followed politics before, but I'm paying attention now. Never in my life have I seen such underhanded, blatantly prejudicial and collusive actions by anyone. I'm thoroughly disgusted in our government.

[Busy ECE mommy]

I was at a Seneca college course on the weekend for ECE's and the teacher(works in Toronto area) said the "2 under 2" rule is not in effect until 2016. I'm completely confused. I've heard nothing about "2 under 2" compliance by December 4, 2014. Please clarify???? What about the scenario where you registered and took a deposit for a child under 2 years in November 2014, but they started in December 2014, after the royal assent???? Totally confused here...

[cfred]

Children in care BEFORE Royal Assent (Dec 4th, 2014) are grandfathered in. Children who are in care AFTER Royal Assent (say, Dec 5th, 2014) must be compliant with the new rules by Proclamation (expected to happen in the fall). I tried to attach the letter I got from the ministry, but can't figure it out. You'll have to take my word for it. Honestly, just join CICPO and have a look. There's oodles of information their FB page with loads of conversations about it. Also try the Providers and Families against Bill 143 page too. All the information is on those two pages.

The short answer to your question Busy ECE mommy.....unless that child was in care before Royal Assent, if he makes your count more than 2 under 2 (including your own children) by Proclamation, he will have to be let go.....deposit or no deposit.

[Busy ECE mommy]

So Proclamation will not happen until Fall 2015? Or do you mean it happened on December 4, 2014?

[Kim1985]

Im wondering if they will create exceptions to those rules.. for exemple if a provider only has 3 child total in her care she could have 3 under 2... things like that.. do you think they will give us a little more wiggle room or unlikely not.... iv never followed politics before either so i dont know if it sometimes happen to change a few exceptions to a bill after royal assent... hopefully yes.. if not well.. not much we can do..

[cfred]

Proclamation is 'projected' for Fall 2015. Royal Assent was Dec. 4th.

I wouldn't look for any exceptions to the rule Kim1985. They want us gone....off the face of the map. There will be no exceptions. If anything, they'll be looking for their first non-compliant provider to slap a $200,000 fine on and make an example of.

The whole point of this bill is to make the Liberals look like they're doing their job well in the face of very damning Ombudsman's Report and Auditor General's Report. They want a nanny state....everyone institutionalized and government controlled. Bending the rules to accommodate us doesn't factor in. THIS is the very reason we've been fighting so hard. Get involved. Be proactive. We have the Ombudsman gathering data. We have the opposition helping us. We have an ever growing group of people, which is now reaching out to Montessori and independent daycare operators. We need everyone on board.

Lisa MacLeod has stated that if she wins the position of head of the PC party, she will continue to fight for us. She said that she will use her one ballot (ability to bring one bill to the forefront for consideration is what I take that to mean) for our cause. She has also said, flat out, that if she wins the next provincial election in 2018 and is premiere, she will have the bill repealed.

WE NEED EVERYONE TO GET INVOLVED.

[Kim1985]

We need to get everyone informed as well. Once every single care provider knows about this bill 10 and that our only hope is Lisa well then everybody will want to help her get in.

A big percentage of the population doesnt follow politics because they dont think it concerns them especially daycare providers who have been running there businesses for decades following the rules and guidelines that made sence.

Hopefully Lisa will get in and keep her word in helping private day care providera get through that black cloud.

[cfred]

Here's a link to Lisa's Membership page. It costs $10 to join which buys you the right to vote her in. http://lisa4leader.ca/ I can't remember off the top of my head when the votes have to be in, but it's some time in Feb...mid to end I believe. Will verify and post.

She and Garfield Dunlop have been helping us every step of the way. Without them CICPO wouldn't have gotten into the Legislative process at all. Now we have broad media coverage, had several members at Standing Committee, have had press release from Queen's Park and have a seat at the upcoming meeting about the Regulatory Process. Even Dizzy Lizzy herself flew in secretly to meet with us and other sectors at a pre-election meeting. She had to be secretive knowing that if we'd known she'd be there, we'd have rallied outside the building. But the fact is that she knows we exist and we're not going away. Tomorrow night begins the first function in which Montessori and ICPs discuss joining together in the fight. We have a long way to go, but have made tremendous strides despite the passing of the bill. This isn't over.

http://www.cicpo.ca/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/CICPO/?ref=br_tf

https://www.facebook.com/groups/288234071301579/

[cfred]

Direct quote received from Lisa MacLeod via email, just now:


"As Leader of the PC Party I will make choice in childcare a priority. As Premier I would repeal Bill 10. "

And there you have it folks.

http://lisa4leader.ca/

[kar1]

Besides the ratios in childcare do you know if she has said anything about the so called sex ed curriculum Liz wants started in September

[cfred]

From what I've read, and I will speak to her more about it tomorrow night, is that Kathleen Wynne is maybe taking things a bit too far with our province's children without proper consultation of those who should really be in charge - their parents. This is a highly controversial curriculum which has had widely varied reviews. My personal belief is that, yes, our sex ed curriculum requires updating, but I feel, as does Lisa apparently, that Wynne's taking it too far without giving parents enough input. I believe they're only consulting with one parent from each school. Is that correct? That's what I seem to recall, anyway. Of course, that parent will be hand selected by the Ministry and will obviously be biased toward the curriculum, thereby setting the stage for all our children. Not all parents are comfortable with the curriculum and many of us still believe that a parent should still have the authority to decide when, where and how children learn about sex.

At the very least, there needs to be appropriate consultation. From what I know of Lisa, she believes the power of raising our children should be left to us, the parents. We should not have to wrestle it away from our government simply because they believe they know what's best for OUR families.

[NaturallyDaycare]

I am also a single mom as this is my only income. I have 3 children, 2 being under 6 and this will cripple my ability to provide for my family without taking some sort of serious measure. My thoughts are, I either raise my fees drastically, or if I am unable to do that, I will need to take an evening job as a waitress and miss out on my family life. I sure working until 2am will do wonders for my ability to provide quality care. In what other field would it be acceptable to deny someone the ability to make minimum wage? I have crunched the numbers, and Bill 10 will put me at about $8/hour. Denying the largest section of an industry the ability to work above the poverty line, is NOT a solution to improve quality!

[Rachael]

I am also a single mom as this is my only income. I have 3 children, 2 being under 6 and this will cripple my ability to provide for my family without taking some sort of serious measure. My thoughts are, I either raise my fees drastically, or if I am unable to do that, I will need to take an evening job as a waitress and miss out on my family life. I sure working until 2am will do wonders for my ability to provide quality care. In what other field would it be acceptable to deny someone the ability to make minimum wage? I have crunched the numbers, and Bill 10 will put me at about $8/hour. Denying the largest section of an industry the ability to work above the poverty line, is NOT a solution to improve quality!

That's what a lot of us in other provinces do. Most provinces already have limits in line with Bill 10 (In NS, our own children count until age 12). But single parents tend to have second businesses or jobs if they have a day home.

I work evenings and weekends as a photographer. Others manage with Scentsy or similar side lines. I don't know any day care provider who is a single parent who DOESN'T have a second source of income because it has to be that way.

[NaturallyDaycare]

cfred I will be at the dinner in Oakville tomorrow night as well. I do NOT intend to give up my ability to make a living without a fight! I love the children in my care and (most of ;) their parents as well, and It will break my heart to have to let some of them go. Having 5 children in your home everyday is a beautiful loving experience no centre could ever top. And I've seen some great ones. Home daycares are part of the core of a strong society and I believe the Liberals are going too far and messing with the lives of our children!

[NaturallyDaycare]

Rachael, there are a lot of variables to consider when comparing province to province. Like how much it costs to license. In Ontario, it's $0 for a centre, and $13 000/year for a home daycare. Age restrictions, number of children in care, just to name a few. Home daycare is hard work and providers deserve to earn minimum wage. Better than minimum wage, even. Anyone who thinks home daycare providers should work for poverty wages, well, I'm not sure how to have a conversation with.

[cfred]

Rachael, I know how you feel about our fight, and that's fine. I understand that the ratios they're imposing on us now are what you've had to deal with through your whole daycare career. What I don't understand is how anyone can be ok with it. Why is this a race to the bottom? Personally, I chose this as my course of study for post secondary and, as such, my career. Surely I should have the ability and the right to make a living wage from it, no? I think it's deplorable that the standards are the way they are and that hard working people such and myself, you and every other provider should have to take a second job just to make enough to survive. This is a valid line of work and we should absolutely EXPECT to be treated fairly. If you're comfortable with it, that's totally fine. Many of us are not. Many of us would like to see change. Many of us, myself included, were complacent so long as we were able to stay afloat. But the system was still not a good one...one that respected our work and our rights...we simply had no real reason to complain. Now that they're screwing with that, some of us are taking notice AND taking action...and it's about damned time! I believe, Rachael, that we're worth more than what anyone gives us credit for. It's about time we stood up for ourselves and showed everyone that.

Naturallydaycare.... I won't be able to attend the Oakville event, regrettably. I will be at the Whitby one though....you know....if you're in the neighbourhood ;) My event last night was fantastic and we had a packed house, even with the rotten weather. Our crowd was mainly Montessori and CICPO has officially offered to form an alliance and build a stronger force in numbers. Lisa was fantastic and Julia Munroe (MPP who came to my rally in October) was there as well....and some local politicians. I'm still a little starstruck by Julia...no idea why...just really like her. Have fun at the Oakville event! And bring all these concerns up with Lisa.

[sandylynn]

If a child started Dec. 5 let's say....what would stop a daycare provider from saying they started say....Dec 1st???????

[Lee-Bee]

If a child started Dec. 5 let's say....what would stop a daycare provider from saying they started say....Dec 1st???????

If they really wanted to catch your lie it would be a matter of looking at signed contracts, tax receipts, touching base with the families in care in that time period. If they contact past clients to see that you had a full house on Dec 1st yet you claim this additional child was also there you are telling them you were over limit...which is just a whole new can of worms to open up.

[Rachael]

Rachael, I know how you feel about our fight, and that's fine. I understand that the ratios they're imposing on us now are what you've had to deal with through your whole daycare career. What I don't understand is how anyone can be ok with it. Why is this a race to the bottom? Personally, I chose this as my course of study for post secondary and, as such, my career. Surely I should have the ability and the right to make a living wage from it, no? I think it's deplorable that the standards are the way they are and that hard working people such and myself, you and every other provider should have to take a second job just to make enough to survive. This is a valid line of work and we should absolutely EXPECT to be treated fairly. If you're comfortable with it, that's totally fine. Many of us are not. Many of us would like to see change. Many of us, myself included, were complacent so long as we were able to stay afloat. But the system was still not a good one...one that respected our work and our rights...we simply had no real reason to complain. Now that they're screwing with that, some of us are taking notice AND taking action...and it's about damned time! I believe, Rachael, that we're worth more than what anyone gives us credit for. It's about time we stood up for ourselves and showed everyone that.

Naturallydaycare.... I won't be able to attend the Oakville event, regrettably. I will be at the Whitby one though....you know....if you're in the neighbourhood ;) My event last night was fantastic and we had a packed house, even with the rotten weather. Our crowd was mainly Montessori and CICPO has officially offered to form an alliance and build a stronger force in numbers. Lisa was fantastic and Julia Munroe (MPP who came to my rally in October) was there as well....and some local politicians. I'm still a little starstruck by Julia...no idea why...just really like her. Have fun at the Oakville event! And bring all these concerns up with Lisa.

Seriously? A single parent asks a question and I answer that and YOU STILL THINK I'M NOT ALLOWED TO COMMENT? SERIOUSLY

F*** YOU

I have purposely avoided commenting on the BILL because you and you're groupies attack anyone for telling the truth and now you try and senser my honestly about what single parents have to do/


You must REALLY love the sound of your own voice.

You now think you know about being a single parent too? Is it every frecking aspect of life in Canada, that you view yourself as the superior knowledge of?

Again. F*** YOU


I'm done. You pretend to be about rallying together, you and your croonies, pretend that bullying (your prefered word not mine) isn't tolerated and yet, you perseve a comment that isn't there and view yourself as self-appointed-judge and jury and slap me down?

F*** YOU AGAIN


Seriously, take your head out of your arse and realize that the whole world doesnt' resolve around you.

[Fun&care]

Seriously? A single parent asks a question and I answer that and YOU STILL THINK I'M NOT ALLOWED TO COMMENT? SERIOUSLY

F*** YOU

I have purposely avoided commenting on the BILL because you and you're groupies attack anyone for telling the truth and now you try and senser my honestly about what single parents have to do/


You must REALLY love the sound of your own voice.

You now think you know about being a single parent too? Is it every frecking aspect of life in Canada, that you view yourself as the superior knowledge of?

Again. F*** YOU


I'm done. You pretend to be about rallying together, you and your croonies, pretend that bullying (your prefered word not mine) isn't tolerated and yet, you perseve a comment that isn't there and view yourself as self-appointed-judge and jury and slap me down?

F*** YOU AGAIN


Seriously, take your head out of your arse and realize that the whole world doesnt' resolve around you.

Hoping mods step in here...

Never have I seen someone be so disrespectful on these boards. This kind of behavior is just deplorable and I hope you get removed Rachael...seriously. ...I don't understand why you keep joining discussions on Bill 10...and I don't understand how you took offense to cfred's comment??? Surely you can see there is a double standard here...you can comment on a comment but no one else can?? This is just beyond.

[innisfildaycare]

Rachael, Its one thing to speak your mind, be honest, and whatever else you've claimed to be, blah blah blah - buts it another to be trashy about it. I honestly didnt see anything wrong with what Cfred said either. With all your rants on the boards and your so called "opionions" I also agree that the mods step in and remove you from the site altogether. I have never ever met someone so negative with their "opionions" ALL THE TIME! You seem absolutely miserable in all of your posts, replys etc. I cant see how someone so miserable and negative can have children in their care all day long and parents are ok with it!! You are exactly the type of person/adult I keep my kids away from!

[cfred]

Wow, Rachael....not sure what to say to your very enlightening post.

I don't believe I censored (not sensored) your comment or view. I simply asked why anyone would be satisfied with our childcare system remaining the way it is. Regardless of how you perceived (not perseved) my message, you clearly have misinterpreted my intent. Frankly, Racheal, I couldn't give a flying monkey what your opinion is. I am promoting CICPO and am working on a public awareness campaign surrounding Bill 10 because, in Ontario, it does in fact matter. No, I don't particularly like the sound of my voice, but I have committed myself to this campaign and will continue to do so, because for me and many others, the current state of affairs is not satisfactory. I feel we deserve better. If you're happy enough scraping by on two jobs, then by all means, go ahead and continue on. It's none of my business. I don't really care. I do care about the thousands of providers who do give a shit about their industry and are tired of being treated like they're at the bottom of the food chain while we do a very important, but vastly unappreciated job.

And for the record, yeah, I kinda know about being a single parent too.....what with having 3 children, on my own now for 15 years. And yes, my daycare has sustained this family for those 15 years....on it's own. So forgive me for not wanting to give that up without a fight.

Nice knowing you Rachael. You are perhaps one of the most unhappy, bitter people I've ever run across. Good luck to you.

[CrazyEight]

What the hell is wrong with you Rachael???

I don't care WHAT the previous comment was or what it was about, when is it ever appropriate to say that to somebody??

[Rachael]

Wow, Rachael....not sure what to say to your very enlightening post.

I don't believe I censored (not sensored) your comment or view. I simply asked why anyone would be satisfied with our childcare system remaining the way it is. Regardless of how you perceived (not perseved) my message, you clearly have misinterpreted my intent. Frankly, Racheal, I couldn't give a flying monkey what your opinion is. I am promoting CICPO and am working on a public awareness campaign surrounding Bill 10 because, in Ontario, it does in fact matter. No, I don't particularly like the sound of my voice, but I have committed myself to this campaign and will continue to do so, because for me and many others, the current state of affairs is not satisfactory. I feel we deserve better. If you're happy enough scraping by on two jobs, then by all means, go ahead and continue on. It's none of my business. I don't really care. I do care about the thousands of providers who do give a shit about their industry and are tired of being treated like they're at the bottom of the food chain while we do a very important, but vastly unappreciated job.

And for the record, yeah, I kinda know about being a single parent too.....what with having 3 children, on my own now for 15 years. And yes, my daycare has sustained this family for those 15 years....on it's own. So forgive me for not wanting to give that up without a fight.

Nice knowing you Rachael. You are perhaps one of the most unhappy, bitter people I've ever run across. Good luck to you.

You lying B****.

You didn't give two shits about the state of the day care industry when it was every province BUT yours being affected.

You only gave a s*** when it affected you.

Don't give the fight the good cause for us all line - You state you've been in day care for 15 years and yet you've done fuck all for any province, all of who have lower allowances then BILL 10 provides.

You are all about yourself. And that's fine. But just be honest.

You didn't care about anyone else's issue. You didn't care that most of us have two jobs. You didn't care about any of it until it affected you.

So, you're a lying b****.

Hope you need three jobs.

I'm done.

This place is beyond toxic.

Feel free to all add your sad little comments below, and falg to the Mods. I wont be back to read them. Keep lying to each other. And pretending to believe one another.

I'd like to say it was nice knowing you, but that would be me lying.

Incredible.

[jodaycare]

Wow Rachael! You definitely woke up on the wrong side of the bed today! Cfred was merely stating that she understands how you feel about Bill 10 and she stated that we in Ontario have the right to stand up and fight for our livelihood. Our Government is treating us like dirt and is trying to put Independent Childcare Providers out of business. What may be a normal operating standard for you in NS isnt normal for us in ON. This Bill was brought in with no input from independent home daycare providers and was based on suggestions from daycare agencies who gouge the providers that are contracted by them. It also came about because of a tragic death in an illegal home daycare with 35 CHILDREN and 14 DOGS, 5 complaints were lodged against the provider and NOT ONE of them was investigated by the government. The government in this province did not do their job and because of that a child died!
The government in this province says Bill 10 will increase safety and government oversight with regard to unlicensed home daycare. Well that isnt going to happen because they WON'T allow us to be licensed nor will the allow a registry so that they can inspect us and INSURE that the children in our care are safe!
So yes, we are pissed and we have every right to be! And we are not bullies or cronies as you called us Rachael! We are simply proud business women trying to provide for our families and provide a safe, loving environment for all of the children in Ontario!
I am really sorry that you have such a rough life but you have no right to take it out on people you don't even know! If the government in your province was trying to destroy your business, would you just lie down and let them?! I think not!

[JumpingJacks]

Rachel why would Ontario daycare providers know anything about daycare in other provinces? Were you aware of Ontario ratios and regulations before you were informed? I'm so glad that people like Cfed have taken up the fight on behalf of ALL Ontario providers and have taken the time to keep us informed about them. I had no idea!
You seem to be a nasty person. I can't believe someone with your temper has been entrusted with the care of children

[innisfildaycare]

Wow - not even sure what say?? write our sad little comments below?? what a joke! You are obviously a very sad, unhappy, lonely women who needs help with some obvious anger issues. Bill 10 has nothing to do with you or your province so start a thread about something going on in your province and cry the blues about your problems over there.
And I guarentee YOU WILL be coming back to read these posts and YOU WILL respond. On a serious note - How do you run a daycare, I mean literally right now, kids are in your home and you have soooo much anger?? I couldnt even imagine my child in an enviroment with a women with such vulgar language?A women so angry while my child is in her home?? I mean I am totally shocked?

[cfred]

Nope, not a lying bitch. I flat out stated that I didn't pay much mind to the state of affairs until this happened. I've admitted to that openly. I'm no different than 90% of the other providers in here in that regard. But, now I'm paying attention and yep, it's because I'd not really thought much about it before. I was honest about that. Regardless of how I got into this, I'm in it and I'm working hard toward it. If you don't like it, that's completely fine. Honestly, we're just as happy not to have someone so unbalanced involved, so you can go ahead and spout your venom elsewhere. This is an Ontario issue...though one of our people has begun a site for Canadian Daycare Providers United, which is pretty cool. I plan to be involved in that as well. With me being Satan and all, though, I'm sure you'll steer clear ;)

[Fun&care]

Feel free to all add your sad little comments below, and falg to the Mods. I wont be back to read them. Keep lying to each other. And pretending to believe one another.

I'd like to say it was nice knowing you, but that would be me lying.

Incredible.

And to that I say good riddance.

[tlmar]

And the cream rises to the top! Good job cfred for keeping your composure and professionalism. It must have been hard especially when someone is attacking you. Keep up the good job and thank you for standing up and taking a leadership role in the fight. If it were left up to people like this women, we would all be doomed. At least with people like yourself who are professional and composed under harsh circumstances we may have a fighting chance to amend some of Bill 10. Keep your chin up, brush this lady off and keep on doing what your doing! Thank you!

[NaturallyDaycare]

I agree. I have seen a lot of Nasty in online forums. Still shake my head sometimes. I still can't believe anyone can openly say that it should be acceptable to work a 10-12 hour job, and still need a second just to scrape by with a family. I have increasingly come to realize JUST HOW incredibly important our profession is. I always knew it was, but the more I think about the upbringing offered in most centre environments (no offence meant!) just not what I would want for my child. We offer a beautiful alternative. People WILL realize what society is risking to lose with Bill 10. This is a much bigger issue than provider's income. So many children I have helped raise could NOT possibly do well in a centre. Too shy, need the close attachment of a single caring provider and a comfortable home environment. I am sincerely terrified for not only the future of my family, but the future of all those littles who thrive in a home daycare environment, but will be denied that because big centres pay more taxes and have more sway.

[NaturallyDaycare]

There is love in my arms, love in my home, love in my menu, and love in my program. I have come to love every single child in my care and the government is trying to take away my ability to do this job and pay the bills. Compound this by every provider who will need to change professions and January 16, 2016 will be a very very sad day for Ontario.

[cfred]

Thanks for the kind words ladies! Not to worry....didn't really bug me at all. We've butted heads before and I know where it's coming from.

Yes, this is an important issue and I'll keep plugging along with the rest of the folks working hard. What's kind of excellent about the whole thing is, that for the first time, I'm discovering that I enjoy this kind of thing and am not too bad at it to boot! Had a great time last night schmoozing with politicians and Montessori reps....it was a great event and the photos can be viewed on CICPO, Moms4Lisa, Ontario Families and Providers Against Bill 143. We had an awesome turn out and I hope the next one I've just taken over in Whitby is just as successful! I'll sort out the details for that one, post the info and hope to see some of you there!

[Karen Swerdfeger]

I apologize, Ladies (and Gents) if this has come up in this thread as I haven't had a chance to read it all yet BUT I am working with CICPO to collect stories of the impact of this Bill (ie: daycares closing, parents being turned away because of 2 under 2, rates being increased, etc.). We are collecting this data for the Ontario Ombudsman to show how truly devastating this Bill is going to be for Ontario families and caregivers. If any of the above applies to you, please email me at khsw@outlook.com. Thank you so much!

[5 Little Monkeys]

I completely 100% agree that our job is an important one and one that I wish more people gave recognition too!! I wish all of you who are dealing with/fighting to change this bill the absolute best and hope that it ends well in favour of hdcp's!!

However, I just wanted to mention that it's fairly common for business owners to not make minimum wage. Not saying it makes it right, just that it does happen in other fields.

With just my 4, I make over minimum wage but that's before I deduct my expenses to run my business. Everyone's expenses will be different though so what I make an hour will be totally different than what another dcp in the same city as me will make.

Good luck!!! :)

[cfred]

Thanks 5LM! I know, you're absolutely right. That's one of the hazards of running your own business. And you're right in that we all have our own 'schtick' so our expenses all vary. I've seen a few home daycares that are absolutely spectacular. Their fees are quite high, but man...I don't know how they make any profit putting out the expenses that they do! They must be fantastic at handling money...I'd be broke!

So far as this industry goes, I'm hoping, as are some of us in CICPO, that this will bloom into more than just an Ontario endeavor. One of our members has spearheaded the Canadian Home Daycare Providers United project. We've all had our eye on the UCC issue, so that's a great project to get on the go in light of that possibility. Once I'm done with my bit in Lisa's campaign tour as it relates to Montessori outreach and CICPO, then I'll probably look at things on a larger scale. We have to take everything one step at a time, but look forward to having an impact in more places than just Ontario.

Where are you, 5LM, out of curiosity?

[5 Little Monkeys]

That's awesome to hear cfred!!

I'm in MB :)

[cfred]

Ahhh, Manitoba! I have a friend out in Brandon. In Manitoba is the first time I've been to a bar with a bull ride...it was actually pretty cool (didn't do the ride though).

There's a FB site from Australia that the Canadian Home Daycare United's founder has discovered and she's in touch with the founder of that. Family Daycare Educators United is the Australian group and they've been holding marches all across Australia. She said that change is possible as they're discovering. Sooooo....that might be a good read for some of you from other provinces. I don't know....I thought it sounded really great and I look forward to learning more about it when I slow down with the stuff I'm currently ensconced in.

Thanks for your well wishes 5LM :)

[Momof4]

Ok cfred, you got me, but it took 4 attempts to remember my password, haha. I applaud all of your hard work and I know you've done more than most to educate other caregivers. You don't want any hardworking caregiver in Ontario to be subjected to a $200,000 fine (about the equivalent of 7 years of income before deductions) because they didn't hear about Bill 10's new laws regarding their business. You have spread the word and worked with MPP Lisa McLeod and Garfield Dunlop and CICPO, who have been on our side and fighting for us. You have been dignified, professional, wise and wonderful! Thank you so much! Ok, I'm gone again, lol!!!!!

[5 Little Monkeys]

Ahhh, Manitoba! I have a friend out in Brandon. In Manitoba is the first time I've been to a bar with a bull ride...it was actually pretty cool (didn't do the ride though).

There's a FB site from Australia that the Canadian Home Daycare United's founder has discovered and she's in touch with the founder of that. Family Daycare Educators United is the Australian group and they've been holding marches all across Australia. She said that change is possible as they're discovering. Sooooo....that might be a good read for some of you from other provinces. I don't know....I thought it sounded really great and I look forward to learning more about it when I slow down with the stuff I'm currently ensconced in.

Thanks for your well wishes 5LM :)

LOL....Houston's Bar??? I'm in Brandon as well :)

[superfun]

LOL....Houston's Bar??? I'm in Brandon as well :)

I'm not going to brag, but one year I almost won. ;)
I was runner up in the tournament. I was much younger of course. Haha!

[cfred]

Might have been Houstons....pretty big place as I remember. The bull was attached to 4 ropes with guys pulling from the corners. Wow....small world!

I contemplated riding the bull, but chickened out in the end. I commend you for actually riding a tournament!

[superfun]

Might have been Houstons....pretty big place as I remember. The bull was attached to 4 ropes with guys pulling from the corners. Wow....small world!

I contemplated riding the bull, but chickened out in the end. I commend you for actually riding a tournament!

Yep that's Houston's. I was much younger!

[5 Little Monkeys]

Small world indeed!! I haven't been there in about 5 years....my bar days were even over before then but I had a bachelorette party there for a friend lol. The bull has been gone for quite some time now I think :( I never had the courage to go on either! Wayyyyyy to shy!!!! Lol

I actually just said to my husband tonight...."remember how good the smokies were outside the bar. We should just go get a smokie".....he looked at me like I was crazy, needless to say....I didn't get a smokie LMAO

[kar1]

Cfred since I am on CIPCO and a team lead with you hope you don't mind me posting my Meet & Greet with Lisa MacLeod for any ladies who are in the Toronto area and where not able to make it to any of the other ones mine is February 17 at 6:30 RSVP to kwilkin1@rogers.com by February 6, 2015 hope to have a good a turn out as you did last week.

[cfred]

Kar1, of course, let everyone know! Thanks! Everyone's doing such a great job on this! Do you have your location booked?

I'm taking over the one in Whitby on Feb 15th from 1pm-2:30pm at Montana's (75 Consumer Drive, Whitby). If anyone is in a reasonable driving distance and wants to come over, please feel free. Lisa's awesome...and a hugger :) This event will also be 100% bill 10 and I'll be reaching out to Montessori schools over the next week. You can RSVP me at c.a.fredenburgh@gmai l.com. We had a really good crowd at the Newmarket event and I'd love to repeat that. Really good networking opportunity!

[jodaycare]

There is also a meet and greet in Brampton on Tuesday. It is at Boston Pizza, Steeles and Kennedy from 6:30 to 8:30. So any Brampton area providers, please come out to meet Lisa!

[cfred]

Hey! Great! What's the exact address?

[jodaycare]

The address is 65 Resolution Drive. It is in the Walmart plaza.

[kar1]

Yes cfred just realized i did not put the address in it is at my co-op in the community room at 10 Elsinore Path

[cfred]

Thanks Kar. I was more asking about the Brampton one as T had asked me to call some Montessori schools for Tuesday's event. She's done it already though....sucks that everything was closed today though! Might be a small crowd.

[sandylynn]

What is the CURRENT penalty if one is looking after 6 instead of 5 children

[cfred]

Not sure. You're never allowed to have 6 kids at the same time, any time. I'm not sure what they do....you should probably have a look at the DNA. I think they make you call the parent of the extra child for pick up, but don't quote me on it. Or are you talking about having 6 kids in total but only 5 at one time? You can have as many kids as you want enrolled, but only 5 can attend at any given time. Daycare insurance will only cover 5 children, maximum.

[CrazyEight]

I want to say a fine of $2000/day of every day they can prove you've been over, and forcing you to shut down for 2 weeks, if it is a first offence, and then random spot checks for a while afterwards to make sure you never have more than 5....but I can't find it online!! I've had so much info about the current laws and new laws and legalese in my brain for so long it's getting jumbled, so I could be TOTALLY off-base....but I believe it's a fine of a certain amount per day, and then shutting the provider down for a specific amount of time.

And cfred is right, that is all for a provider caring for 6 children AT ONE TIME...you could have 20 children enrolled if you wanted to, as long as they never overlapped to give you more than 5 at a time.

And currently, a provider's own children don't count in that total of 5. I say it only because I've got 3 of my own, so when everyone's here and we're doing the school run, for example, I've got 8 kids with me, and I'm sure people wonder.

[cfred]

I was just about to add that CrazyEight.....$2000/day sticks in my mind as well.

[CrazyEight]

Thanks cfred, maybe I'm not completely nuts! :)

[pink]

How many caregiver's do you think will follow the new rules. 2 under 2, 3 over 2. Most of us, all have children within the age of 12 to 18 months, it's rare that you will receive an inquiry for an older child unless it's a family with 2 siblings returning from mat leave. I will not have that age come January, I will have a child almost 3. There will be lots of parents without childcare who have 12 months old children.

[sandylynn]

Exactly....I have refused inquiries for 1 year olds in the last month! No idea where these people are going....The daycare centre in the area has a 6 month waiting at least they said.

[bright sparks]

Exactly....I have refused inquiries for 1 year olds in the last month! No idea where these people are going....The daycare centre in the area has a 6 month waiting at least they said.

6 month waiting list is short in comparison to many I know of. They say at least 12-18 months. People are getting on the waiting list within a couple of months of conceiving because they are worried they won't get into a centre. The ratios are being changed in centres to "apparently" accommodate the increased need. Not sure how that makes things safer, especially in a sector that notoriously has a higher incident rate than the independent home daycare provider. So much for their licensing keeping the kids safer. Lets just add a few more kids per adult and things will be just fine :rolleyes:

[bright sparks]

How many caregiver's do you think will follow the new rules. 2 under 2, 3 over 2. Most of us, all have children within the age of 12 to 18 months, it's rare that you will receive an inquiry for an older child unless it's a family with 2 siblings returning from mat leave. I will not have that age come January, I will have a child almost 3. There will be lots of parents without childcare who have 12 months old children.

I originally started doing daycare in a city that was saturated with providers. I never really had an issue filling spots as it was highly populated but when I moved to a smaller town, 15,000, it was a different story. There were only 3 providers advertising between dcbear, kijiji and online websites. I know there were about 10 providers or thereabouts through word of mouth. I kid you not I had at least 6 enquiries a week at one point because of the shortage of providers. As a result within a year or so of being here, dcbear had 27 providers advertising if I recall correctly. Upon researching, nearly all of these additions were moms who decided to stay at home because of the difficulty in finding care, let alone good care, and I think this is what will happen when Bill 10 comes in. More and more families will be forced to stay home and to be able to do so financially, they will open their homes as daycares until their children go to school full time. This will help to a point but I worry about how many of those newbies will not know the rules, especially as googling brings up such a mish mash of info which isn't always accurate. This is why licensing is so important.

[pink]

I would become licensed if it paid. I live in a small community outside Ottawa, if I become licensed with the Municipality of Prescott, Russell they would pay me $29.00 a day. All new clients now are $38.00 a day. When, I lived in Ottawa there was a few agencies Tot Lot, Wee Watch, if Tot Lot was in Limoges, I would make probably the same rate as I charge. This is not about the rates, going off topic a little, become licensed where I live would affect my income. I have noticed that there is a few more caregiver's that have surfaces in the last 6 months. You are absolutely right, they probably don't know the new rules. They are also charging $25.00 per day which drives me absolutely crazy.

[flowerchild]

I have a question:

I'm reading that children up to age 13 now count into daycare numbers, but the daycare provider's children over 6 don't?

So, for hypothetical example, I could have 2,3,5,10, and 12 year old daycare children plus my own children aged 6, 8, and 10?

Am I understanding that correctly?

[CrazyEight]

Yes. Once your own kids are 6, they no longer count in your numbers. The example that you gave would be perfectly legal, as you don't have more than 2 under 2, and your dckids up to age 13 are now counting as a spot.

[bright sparks]

I would become licensed if it paid. I live in a small community outside Ottawa, if I become licensed with the Municipality of Prescott, Russell they would pay me $29.00 a day. All new clients now are $38.00 a day. When, I lived in Ottawa there was a few agencies Tot Lot, Wee Watch, if Tot Lot was in Limoges, I would make probably the same rate as I charge. This is not about the rates, going off topic a little, become licensed where I live would affect my income. I have noticed that there is a few more caregiver's that have surfaces in the last 6 months. You are absolutely right, they probably don't know the new rules. They are also charging $25.00 per day which drives me absolutely crazy.

There is no option to become a licensed individual home daycare provider in the province of Ontario pink so I'm not sure what you are referring too as being with a licensed agency makes you an agency provider but not a licensed one. The agency is the one with the license. I think there needs to be legal licensing for all providers as a means of setting a minimum standard and keeping track of these professionals. I however don't think it should be with an agency and with profit as the number one goal. I'm not saying it should be for free either but with the main objective being to maintain some kind of safety standards and have resources for the providers. Not a simple task setting this up as so many won't be happy with the rules.