Looking for some opinions on toilet training

[bright sparks]

I am toilet training a 3.5dcb. He is physically ready to train, and to an extent understands the toileting concept.

He is delayed in certain areas, this being one of them, so there are some communication issues and I think he processes differently making it difficult to have him absorb the info, or retrieve it from his working memory. Great little boy, non behavioural but when it comes to things like eating and toileting, it's a huge issue.

I have said for a while to his Nana that I don't think he is ready to train. Not because he isn't physically able to, or not because he doesn't understand the concept, but because he just won't. She agrees with me. She has tried before in the past prior to turning 3 in December but he would not go. She has tried every possible bribe and reward scheme. She has given him books and toys, she has put him on a potty in front of the tv and she has also spent a lot of time talking to him about it. He however will not pee on the toilet or potty. He is due to go to kindergarten in September. I left training as long as possible in the hopes that he would show more signs and we could start 6 weeks minimum before school starts.

I have my other 3.5dcb go on the potty instead of the toilet to model, which he loves to do lol, so that this other boy can see it in real life, rather than just words or in a book. I know he sees his family go to the toilet, but seeing his play mates go I thought would maybe help. No such luck.

On Saturday I get a text from Nana saying she had put him in underwear to go for it and he had peed on the toilet. Well that was great news so I said, lets keep going. Nothing since. He has had very few accidents because he can hold his bladder well, and is one of those who doesn't go all the time. He can still function and if he is twitchy I will ask him if he needs to go and it's anyone's guess what his answer will be but regardless, he never does anything. Yesterday he had one accident for me and the big thing I noticed was that he did not flinch as he peed his pants. Didn't acknowledge it, show any kind of response, no shame or "O Oh" moment, just like nothing had happened. That sends red flags up for me. This kid has something not connecting in his mind when it comes to this toilet training business. He isn't having tons of accidents and the occasional success with a natural progression in the right direction which make me think that yes he is getting it with some normal set backs, because as we all know, for some kids it is normal to have some days of none stop accidents but they tend to get back on track soon after. He doesn't verbalize his needs for anything as it is unless its a drink of water, but then it isn't a well constructed request. Talks a lot like a 2 year old, not even that sometimes. His Nana said this morning that he has had a couple accidents and did actually ask one time to go toilet but didn't do anything. I don't think he is asking with intention. I should also mention too that if I ask him if he has gone pee, he nearly always says yes, even though he hasn't. I wonder if in his brain he interprets it as "have you finished" Also on Monday when he first started here, another little guy peed, huge fluke as I am not training him and he is not ready, so he got a sticker as a reward. 3.5dcb didn't understand why he didn't get one even though I explained over and over. It's again as though his brain has interpreted going to the toilet or potty as sitting on it, not actually doing something.

All of me says this kid is not ready, but I don't think it is as straight forward as that. I think waiting isn't going to help. I got in touch with ROCK who gave me contact info for our local government resource for all types of developmental and social support for kids 0-6yrs. Nana has been in touch with them and I have had a good conversation with her about these resources and how they may be able to provide her and I with a different method for a child who processes information differently. Nana and I have talked lots, she is really great on the subject of possible delays. I haven't told her anything other than my observations and also my experience with a child who processes info differently, my son, and that once you find their way of thinking, day to day activities tend to go a lot easier.

She called yesterday and left a message so we shall see. Nana doesn't want to go back to diapers, and I always say no to that idea too. That being said, I can not spend my entire day distracted from my other kids to toilet train a kid who is in fact not toilet training. He does not possess the ability to verbalize or signal his needs in any shape or form. He is disengaged from the whole situation. I can't even condition him if he never pees. It would almost be better if he did pee his pants regularly but then again, if he doesn't flinch at it then what good is that. I don't think it is stubbornness knowing this child, so I personally don't think he is even holding his bladder until nap time. Yesterday he had his pull up on for 10 minutes before going onto his nap mat and he was still dry. A child consciously choosing to wait for nap would let it go within a minute or two surely.

I hope each day will be the day that it clicks, but in the meantime, I have to put him on the potty every 10 minutes, or leave him on it indefinitely so I can get anything else done with the rest of my group, because he isn't giving me any queues to when he needs to go. I want to set a deadline for improvement and then if not I want him back in diapers so I can relax and go with the flow of our usual day again. It doesn't matter how much I try to train him if he is not on board.

I'd like to know other peoples thoughts on this. Not however how you typically train, as I know hardly any providers train in underwear. This isn't about that, but about this specific case. I just want to know what people would do if they were in my shoes in this situation right now, today.

Thanks in advance...if you need more specifics let me know

[Dreamalittledream]

I completely understand the not wanting to go back to diapers thing. Thoughts on a waterproof pant (or diaper) over his underwear or pants (& lots of changes of clothes, of course)...that way, you are not going against the routine at home and still saving the clean up at home. I too always explain to parents how much harder it is at daycare...they are often distracted in play; sometime they feel ownership over the toy they're playing with and don't want to leave the toy to go to the bathroom, we are busy and easily miss the cues/reminders....it goes on and on....
I wish you luck!
Once thing for sure...until the little one are completely ready to cooperate, it is all quite a struggle.

[babydom]

I've had the same. Same age. Same gender. I unfortunately have a different policy. They must start training at home before I start at daycare. And they must go two wks accident free in pull ups before I do underwear. I can not do it any other way when I have four other kids. It is just to much on me and not fair to the other kids. So with my guy they trained in underwear at home and he was in pull ups here. Honestly what worked for me and every kid is different is I ignored it. I did not ask him if he needed to go I just took him every hr the first wk to sit. If he didn't do anything I did and said nothing. Got him off pulled up his pants returned him to play. The second wk I only took him on our bathroom times. Which are 930.1230. And 330. Again if he did nothing I did nothing. But after three wks he went and then we had a party. Yells and scream yay!!! You did it. Gave him a treat. He then went every time I put him on. All three times during the day. Till this day he still does not say he has to go. He just hold it till someone puts him on. That's just my experience. Good luck! Oh ya I also put underwear on him under his pull up. That way when he peed he felt the pee first in the wet underwear as just a pull up it absorbs it quickly and they don't feel it as much, like a diaper. Wet panties were sent home to wash.

[monkeys]

How about using pictures to help him communicate? You can start with photos, then move to hand drawn or computer drawn images. You can use these to help him request items or activities including using the bathroom. I would take this boy to the bathroom every hour at the most. He seems to have some control and taking him to the bathroom every 10 minutes is too much on the both of you.

[bright sparks]

How about using pictures to help him communicate? You can start with photos, then move to hand drawn or computer drawn images. You can use these to help him request items or activities including using the bathroom. I would take this boy to the bathroom every hour at the most. He seems to have some control and taking him to the bathroom every 10 minutes is too much on the both of you.

Like I said he is disengaged from the whole thing. I have picture cues but he doesn't use them. He does talk and quite a lot sometimes, just verbalizing his needs is an obstacle sometimes although there has been definite improvement there. I have potties so I don't need to leave the room fortunately. If I try to engage him in anything specific he struggles to stay fixed in me or the subject. I've tried giving him something to manipulate and that doesn't seem to help. He can make eye contact, but it is short lived and when I ask him something, his response will often be non related.

[bright sparks]

I've had the same. Same age. Same gender. I unfortunately have a different policy. They must start training at home before I start at daycare. And they must go two wks accident free in pull ups before I do underwear. I can not do it any other way when I have four other kids. It is just to much on me and not fair to the other kids. So with my guy they trained in underwear at home and he was in pull ups here. Honestly what worked for me and every kid is different is I ignored it. I did not ask him if he needed to go I just took him every hr the first wk to sit. If he didn't do anything I did and said nothing. Got him off pulled up his pants returned him to play. The second wk I only took him on our bathroom times. Which are 930.1230. And 330. Again if he did nothing I did nothing. But after three wks he went and then we had a party. Yells and scream yay!!! You did it. Gave him a treat. He then went every time I put him on. All three times during the day. Till this day he still does not say he has to go. He just hold it till someone puts him on. That's just my experience. Good luck! Oh ya I also put underwear on him under his pull up. That way when he peed he felt the pee first in the wet underwear as just a pull up it absorbs it quickly and they don't feel it as much, like a diaper. Wet panties were sent home to wash.

Re-read what I put. This kid has dry diapers for extended periods and his Nana did start training at home. That is not the question. My question is where do I go from now as things are today. What you are describing babydom doesn't sound anything out of the "ordinary" for toilet training, especially boys. This kid has delays and there is definitely something more going on with him which is why I am at a loss as to what to do.

[bright sparks]

I completely understand the not wanting to go back to diapers thing. Thoughts on a waterproof pant (or diaper) over his underwear or pants (& lots of changes of clothes, of course)...that way, you are not going against the routine at home and still saving the clean up at home. I too always explain to parents how much harder it is at daycare...they are often distracted in play; sometime they feel ownership over the toy they're playing with and don't want to leave the toy to go to the bathroom, we are busy and easily miss the cues/reminders....it goes on and on....
I wish you luck!
Once thing for sure...until the little one are completely ready to cooperate, it is all quite a struggle.

Thanks, I think the waterproof pant would be a good idea for me, but I don't think it will help him. He almost needs to have the feeling of pee on his legs to get it, but then yesterday he did, but might as well not have. I am watching him like a hawk for any kind of cue but they just aren't there. If he has a water proof pant on, I'll have to check him as often as if he had a diaper on. If he is not telling me at all in any way that he has done something, that is a huge obstacle. Initially conditioning kids like this usually results in them going on demand eventually progressing to expressing their need themselves, but he won't even go when I put him on the potty or toilet so I'm stuck lol

[bright sparks]

His age is a huge factor too in that this can not be put off, but unfortunately going cold turkey and just dealing with it means we can't go anywhere or do anything beyond free play.

[Lee-Bee]

Sounds like you have quite the challenge ahead of you!

I know from experience with my daughter (26months) that if they don't pee often it is soooo much harder! There were so many days I wished the kid would just pee all over! Waiting, hoping she would pee on her favorite animals or blankie so I could make a big production out of it having to go in the wash. But if they only pee every 3,4,5+ hrs that lesson just doesn't come!

Can you have him in the thicker underwear so he still gets wet, but it absorbs more so less mess for you? Again, won't help much if he is not clueing in.

Would he respond if you took the toy he is playing with away if he pees? For my daughter I started putting anything she was playing with on the washing machine when she peed. Even if it was not wet, it was "dirty" and had to be washed because she peed while playing with it. This just brought home the message that it is indeed better to run to the potty and come back to your toy, instead of peeing with the toy and having it put away to be washed.

The only other thing I can think of is when you notice him starting to pee point out that he is peeing. Maybe (with lots of time) he will start to register it (if he has any sensation while peeing, which he may not).

Hope he progresses, and it isn't too long and painful on your end :-(

[monkeys]

Like I said he is disengaged from the whole thing. I have picture cues but he doesn't use them. He does talk and quite a lot sometimes, just verbalizing his needs is an obstacle sometimes although there has been definite improvement there. I have potties so I don't need to leave the room fortunately. If I try to engage him in anything specific he struggles to stay fixed in me or the subject. I've tried giving him something to manipulate and that doesn't seem to help. He can make eye contact, but it is short lived and when I ask him something, his response will often be non related.

The pictures if used regularly, can help him. They give him a concrete means as to what is being asked and potentially what he is asking for. Words are not concrete and as soon as we have finished saying them they are gone, the picture would still be there.

His talking even if it is off topic is his way of communticating with everyone, it sounds like he understands that if asked a question he needs to answer. But, his thoughts become jumbled with his thoughts or possibly a question that was asked earlier.

Initially, it would be you giving him the picture and telling him its time to use the potty. It may take a while, but it gives him another tool to use to clearly express his needs.

Using a combination of the ideas given by all, will help. A pull up over underwear, waterproof pants, heavier underwear, putting the toys away to be cleaned if there is an accident, set potty times (I use transitions to new activity times, school run, meals, outside play, etc.,) and pictures, are all great ideas. Toilet training is hard for some children, they need more time and effort one our end to help with their success.

I wish you luck, this sound like a tough one.

[Lee-Bee]

It is also worth noting that it is not on you to have him toilet trained before school starts. Make sure you aren't feeling that pressure! There are many kids in the school system with special needs that are not toilet trained. It comes with having special needs, it is not a sign of you failing or anything!

Do as much as you can...but keep in mind that it just may not happen and that doesn't in any way reflect on your quality of care!!!

[bright sparks]

It is also worth noting that it is not on you to have him toilet trained before school starts. Make sure you aren't feeling that pressure! There are many kids in the school system with special needs that are not toilet trained. It comes with having special needs, it is not a sign of you failing or anything!

Do as much as you can...but keep in mind that it just may not happen and that doesn't in any way reflect on your quality of care!!!

Thank you Lee-Bee, I appreciate those kind words. I did call the public school board and just asked them about toilet training. If there is a possible special need then they will accept the child and assess the childs needs with the hopes of assigning an EA to that child. That being said, it is at the principals discretion based on a no doubt short and likely useless meeting in the hallways with the child and parent that wouldn't give enough opportunity to really see this child's issues. So many people are judgemental an put it down to lazy parenting why a child isn't trained. I am going to pass this info onto Nana and hopefully that will encourage her to register him asap.

[bright sparks]

The pictures if used regularly, can help him. They give him a concrete means as to what is being asked and potentially what he is asking for. Words are not concrete and as soon as we have finished saying them they are gone, the picture would still be there.

His talking even if it is off topic is his way of communticating with everyone, it sounds like he understands that if asked a question he needs to answer. But, his thoughts become jumbled with his thoughts or possibly a question that was asked earlier.

Initially, it would be you giving him the picture and telling him its time to use the potty. It may take a while, but it gives him another tool to use to clearly express his needs.

Using a combination of the ideas given by all, will help. A pull up over underwear, waterproof pants, heavier underwear, putting the toys away to be cleaned if there is an accident, set potty times (I use transitions to new activity times, school run, meals, outside play, etc.,) and pictures, are all great ideas. Toilet training is hard for some children, they need more time and effort one our end to help with their success.

I wish you luck, this sound like a tough one.

Thanks for this...I do like using pictures for cues and have worked with autistic kids outside of daycare who used them and it was huge success. That being said, my issue isn't getting him to go on the potty or to the toilet. We have also all looked at another boys pee in the potty...don't judge me I told you I was trying lol, he has seen his grandparents go and other kids go. He will go to the toilet when requested but will not go pee. How do I get a picture depicting a child "actually" peeing?? Also he will always say, okay I'll try, or okay I'll make a pee, and when I ask him if he went pee, he will say yes when he hasn't. Those things are not going to change based on a picture of a child peeing. I need him to have a pee, so a picture of going to sit on a toilet or potty are not the problem as he already does that. Also with no cues whatsoever, it's really hard for me to catch him peeing, and when he does pee, he doesn't change his reactions but just carries on as though its not even there.

Also, if there is a special need, the not peeing is a symptom, and the actual cause is what needs to be addressed in order to gain success in his toileting. If this is the case, it would be unlikely that any amount of verbal or visual cues from me will have any success....don't mean to be a pessimist, but it is hard to really explain the extent of this situation without actually seeing it for yourself.

[ebhappydc]

Just two cents here... Would signing help as opposed to verbal? I've heard kids can clue into signing easier than verbal at times.
Also, if you need him to pee, is he a good drinker? I've encouraged a child in training to drink a fair bit (fave juice watered down) and then I set a timer for myself of about 45 min as that's how long takes for a cup or so to start putting pressure on bladder (remember baby ultrasound days!?). At the timer, I'd watch for any sign of discomfort, fidgeting, and I'd talk about feeling so much more comfortable with an empty bladder. I'd pointed to where his bladder was just below his tummy. Did over the course of many days as we can't get them to drink too much! He's lucky with all the effort and research you're doing; going above and beyond for him.

[bright sparks]

Just two cents here... Would signing help as opposed to verbal? I've heard kids can clue into signing easier than verbal at times.
Also, if you need him to pee, is he a good drinker? I've encouraged a child in training to drink a fair bit (fave juice watered down) and then I set a timer for myself of about 45 min as that's how long takes for a cup or so to start putting pressure on bladder (remember baby ultrasound days!?). At the timer, I'd watch for any sign of discomfort, fidgeting, and I'd talk about feeling so much more comfortable with an empty bladder. I'd pointed to where his bladder was just below his tummy. Did over the course of many days as we can't get them to drink too much! He's lucky with all the effort and research you're doing; going above and beyond for him.

I know of some people who promote pushing more fluids during toilet training but I have never been a big fan. That being said, in this case some encouragement physically to have him pee sounds like it might be an idea. I'm going to try that tomorrow. He is napping now and goes home within 30 minutes of waking.

[ebhappydc]

I know of some people who promote pushing more fluids during toilet training but I have never been a big fan. That being said, in this case some encouragement physically to have him pee sounds like it might be an idea. I'm going to try that tomorrow. He is napping now and goes home within 30 minutes of waking.

For sure, only if they wanted to drink then it worked for me. During training I found they'd drink more with juice than water, and I'm not keen on the sugar, but parents were on board as it was temporary. Much luck tomorrow.

[kindertime]

I think, perhaps the best advice for you at this time is to wait for him to be assessed. You will only be with him for another few weeks. It does sound to me like your suspicions are right (or close.) He isn't "feeling" the sensation. Either when peeing or when having to pee. And he also have eating issue still. I would guess they are all linked. The way you descibe him, he actually sounds like a very sweet boy. And if you aren't having any issues with defiance or tantrums, then I am thinking that likely he won't be able to make much progress until the proper interventions are made.

I am not familliar with ROCK, but if Nana is willing to pursue interventions with professionals, then I think that is going to be the best thing for him.



I should also mention too that if I ask him if he has gone pee, he nearly always says yes, even though he hasn't. I wonder if in his brain he interprets it as "have you finished" Also on Monday when he first started here, another little guy peed, huge fluke as I am not training him and he is not ready, so he got a sticker as a reward. 3.5dcb didn't understand why he didn't get one even though I explained over and over. It's again as though his brain has interpreted going to the toilet or potty as sitting on it, not actually doing something.

I think this is maybe where you could focus your attention. Perhaps change your language a bit. Don't say "go pee" when he is going into the bathroom, only use that word for the actual action of peeing. Use "Sit on the potty" instead.

I never train boys standing up. Had one once who was already trained when he started with me and I had a yellow ring around the toilet every day. AHHH! But... in this case, might that help? He is surrounded by women, you, Nana, and no dad so maybe if he stood, holding himself, it might trigger something. (Could also be a disaster.)

I wish you the best of luck.

[monkeys]

There is a boy doll who pees on the potty. You give him some water from a bottle and then he pees. I don't remember the name of it, but i think we found them at toys r us.

Trying to get a picture of a child peeing is not the best, someone may take it the wrong way. I have encouraged dads to take their sons to the bathroom to watch them pee. The child looks up to dad and want to do what dad does.

Sometimes children with delays will take a lot longer to toilet train, but still the majority will get trained. it feels daunting at times, but then they surprise you and its worth all the extra work.

[kindertime]

I don't know how much extra reading you want to do, but if you're interested, check out this site.

http://spdfoundation.net/

Sensory Processing Disorder might be a possibility. The site has a checklist and red flags for the disorder.

[bright sparks]

I don't know how much extra reading you want to do, but if you're interested, check out this site.

http://spdfoundation.net/

Sensory Processing Disorder might be a possibility. The site has a checklist and red flags for the disorder.

Thanks for sharing this kindertime. I did read this and while he has a few red flags, most of the things go unchecked. Also seems like most symptoms for a lot of spectrum diagnoses.

[bright sparks]

There is a boy doll who pees on the potty. You give him some water from a bottle and then he pees. I don't remember the name of it, but i think we found them at toys r us.

Trying to get a picture of a child peeing is not the best, someone may take it the wrong way. I have encouraged dads to take their sons to the bathroom to watch them pee. The child looks up to dad and want to do what dad does.

Sometimes children with delays will take a lot longer to toilet train, but still the majority will get trained. it feels daunting at times, but then they surprise you and its worth all the extra work.

Just to be clear, I would never try to get a picture of anyone peeing lol hence why it would be difficult to get a picture showing the difference between sitting on the toilet and actually doing something on the toilet. As I said in previous posts too, this kid goes to the bathroom with many adults in his household including his pops and understands how this toileting works. I love the sound of the doll. I'm going to look into that today!

[bright sparks]

I think, perhaps the best advice for you at this time is to wait for him to be assessed. You will only be with him for another few weeks. It does sound to me like your suspicions are right (or close.) He isn't "feeling" the sensation. Either when peeing or when having to pee. And he also have eating issue still. I would guess they are all linked. The way you descibe him, he actually sounds like a very sweet boy. And if you aren't having any issues with defiance or tantrums, then I am thinking that likely he won't be able to make much progress until the proper interventions are made.

I am not familliar with ROCK, but if Nana is willing to pursue interventions with professionals, then I think that is going to be the best thing for him.




I think this is maybe where you could focus your attention. Perhaps change your language a bit. Don't say "go pee" when he is going into the bathroom, only use that word for the actual action of peeing. Use "Sit on the potty" instead.

I never train boys standing up. Had one once who was already trained when he started with me and I had a yellow ring around the toilet every day. AHHH! But... in this case, might that help? He is surrounded by women, you, Nana, and no dad so maybe if he stood, holding himself, it might trigger something. (Could also be a disaster.)

I wish you the best of luck.

ROCK is Reach out centre for kids, formerly Ontario Early Years Centre.

I am going to try that today...I will ask him to sit on the potty and then once he has say now it's time to go pee in the potty. Maybe breaking it down into separate steps will help.

Nana plans to go to school today and speak to the principal about registering him and mention that he may have some delays which are preventing him from toilet training. She will not go back to diapers, so I am hoping he improves, because there is no way I can base my entire program around a child who gives no cues for his toileting needs in addition to not being able to condition him by putting him on the potty when I want to have him pee because he just wont pee.

Each day is a new day, and maybe today will be the day!

[Lee-Bee]

I know it sounds really weird but can you maybe have the other kids use the potty and take a picture of their pee and poop in the potty he will use? Without the kids seeing, last thing you need is them seeing you take pictures of poop lol. But having pictures of sitting on the potty and then having pictures of something IN the potty. Make a photo board with the sequence. Point to it as he progresses though the steps. It seems odd to us, but to a child with delays being very very clear and concrete is best. So a picture of fake pee and poop in a potty may not be as informative.

It is still a long shot, you've mentioned he watches others and knows what it's all about so it might not be the most useful tool. BUT, there's a chance. The peeing doll would be helpful too. As the doll pees point to the picture chart and verbalize the steps the doll is doing.

Good luck!!