I'm not sure this is the right place to be posting, I just really need some help! lol

[monkey25]

Here's the long and short of it
I have had a child in my day home for 2 years. There have been all kinds of behavioral issues, basically
this child is tearing my house apart, but the major issue is she is constantly peeing all over my house. When she pees her pants, it doesn't even phase her anymore. She doesn't even tell me she has to go to the bathtoom she just pees on my floor ( or at the park or waiting for the light to change at the crosswalk) without skipping a beat. She has pooped on my carpet a few times in the past aswell, but she pees her pants almost every day, sometimes 4 times a day. When I speak to the parents about it, they laugh it off and simply say 'it doesnt happen at home' and I feel like I have tried everything for this child (with the peeing and the other issues) and nothing seems to work. This child is almost 4, and I feel like after 2 years of trying and trying, I am just exhausted by the situation. Any suggestions? I have had other children in my care and I have never come across this issue so, any insight would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you!

[flowerchild]

If she doesn't do it at home, it's behavioural. Doesn't sound like you have much support from her parents either. It might be time to get strict.

She MUST wear pull ups at your home. They must provide these pull ups and at almost four she is old enough to change her pull-ups herself.

How are her parents OK with this? They pick her up everyday and there is a whole bag of urine soaked clothes - think of the laundry they must do. She must have a lot of clothes if they can send 4-5 clean outfits everyday for her.

What are some of the other issues?

I think you need to give them a month to get this stuff under control otherwise show them the door.

[Lee-Bee]

Well. Here's how I see it. Either the parents are lying, or they are fairly out of it. I'm sorry but if my 4 year old child was peeing/pooping herself 1-4 times a day at daycare and never at home then I would consider that a HUGE red flag that something was going on in the daycare environment and if my child was bringing home the soiled clothes I would be looking into it.

I am by no means saying there is something wrong with your daycare, I suspect that this child does do it at home and they are trying to put the onus on you.

I would consider it either a behavioral issue (doing it to be defiant) or the child truly has some physical problem with knowing when they have soiled themselves. In either case they need help to pinpoint what the issue is and what the proper course of action is.

Do you have the parents support? Are they approachable? Are there many other issues at hand in which case you are better to let the child go as a wake up call to the family and so the child can get the support she needs?

What other behavioral issues are you dealing with?

[mickyc]

Pull-up!!! There is no way I would allow underwear. She wants to act like a baby then she gets a pull-up on like a baby. It is not ok to pee and poop on the floor!!! Demand parents send pull-ups immediately.

[Lee-Bee]

I think i'd go further though and use diapers not pull ups. At age 4 (aside from any developmental delays) she should be aware and able to prevent the majority of accidents, especially if she has been trained for some time and is truly accident free at home. If it is just a behavioral thing then the impact of 'act like a baby, get treated like a baby' will be driven home faster with actual diapers.

I just caution such a route if there is any chance of it being more than just behavior. If it is due to an underlying condition then I'd be weary of shaming her in case it is a long term issue!

[Fun&care]

I don't think shaming a child for not having mastered the potty is ever ok. Typically it makes the situation even worse. Put the pull ups on but don't make it a negative thing, just a very matter-of-fact tone saying "sorry Sally but you will have to wear pull-ups until you can show me what a big girl you are and can go pee and poo on the toilet by yourself". You can try a rewards system like a sticker chart. Parents probably won't like her being back in pull-ups but too bad-you shouldn't be cleaning up soiled clothes and furniture and flooring several times per day.

[Lee-Bee]

No, but the problem with pull ups is they are designed for kids this age, there are many kids this age in the them and they give little reason for the child to want to be out of them. A diaper will give more incentive for the child to step up and use the toilet so she can go back to panties.

The difference is, if the child has an underlying condition resulting in so many accidents then you'd want the pull ups so they aren't feeling different than the other kids their age due to their inability to train in the same time frame.

[mickyc]

I just want to add that I would not tell the child if you act like a baby then you get a pull-up like a baby but that is totally something I would be thinking!

I would just tell mom there are too many accidents and it is not practical or sanitary to have her peeing and pooping all over your carpet! And until she can go to the bathroom on her own without accidents then she needs to remain in a pull-up. Good for them if it isn't happening at home although I doubt it but daycare is different so this is their only option.

[3rdtimesacharm]

I try to limit the liquids for potty training children, fill them up with water and they are bound to have to pee every half hour or so.
I would be asking parents for pullups, limiting the drinks to snack and meal times only (no unlimited access to her cup) and implementing a timer system when she MUST sit on the toilet every hour.

[monkey25]

Wow! Thanks for all the suggestions. I have to be totally honest, here......i have done all of that! Rewards, stickers, charts, not in pull up, back in pull ups, you name it, i have tried.....
and im sorry, but i have other kids in my care who are younger than her, and they don't get stickers for not peeing iny floor. We are beyond that, i feel.

[monkey25]

Any time anything happens, they all kind of laugh it off, and tell her shes silly.

some of the other issues.....picking holes in my carpet/walls/the counter in my bathroom, pushing me and the other kids, flooding my toilet and bathroom sink.....the list goes on.

[monkey25]

I have thought the exact same thing! If she absolutely does not do it at home, the why are they still sending her here? I wouldnt. Lol! I might also add, that i treat her and her family very, very well. I also have another little one whos parents were terified to send him to me because of his behavioral issues.....i have not once seen him act out. He is a dear and a fabulous child to work with so, it makes me feel like i kind of know what I'm doing. As for the pee family, i have suggested they take her to the doctor to make sure it isnt a mwdical issue.....which, really, should have happened in general.

[Lee-Bee]

The Pee family (heehee).

I don't think I can be of help here...hopefully some others have advice from working with older, children that are acting out. I don't know that I would be keeping a child in care if they were picking holes in my walls/carpets/counters, flooding my house and pushing...along with peeing all over at the age of 4 UNLESS the parents were completely on board with helping to solve the issues at hand. Which these parents are NOT if they are laughing it off.

It is sad, but we are only one person and we have a huge job before us. If the parents are not working as a team to solve big issues like this then it can just mean you have to devote way too much of your time and energy to solving it all on your own...while often times the parents are just undoing your hard work after hours.

[AmandaKDT]

My 3 almost 4 year old niece AND my friend's daughter who is the same age both took FOREVER to potty train. It was getting very frustrating and it didn't seem to matter what they did there were constant accidents for months and months. They both have strong willed personalities, perhaps that is a factor? My niece had an issue with holding in her poop and that caused some real set backs too. But for both of them they just recently were finally fully potty trained, all that they did was keep consistently taking them to the potty and eventually it just clicked.

Sorry I don't have much advice to offer, except that it took time and endless patience. But if the girl is pooping herself she would definitely be in a pull up in my house. What an awful mess to clean up!

[flowerchild]

How does she react when she has an accident?

I'm picturing myself standing at an intersection with all my kids and daycare kids and my daughter having an accident. There would be build-up (ie. Mommy, I have to go pee! I have to pee! Have to pee!) and then the accident followed by her being upset (crying, panicking, etc). From what you describe in your first post, I'm picturing you standing at the corner with a bunch of kids and one kid just starts peeing all over the sidewalk and then keeps on walking like nothing happened.

How does she respond to redirection etc around the other issues? Ie. "DCG, please don't pick at the carpet, you'll make a hole." Does she stop and move on to something else? Or does she deliberately continue to pick at the carpet? I find sometimes with kids they'll pull at something just because it's there if that makes sense? There is a small gouge in the wall in my front entrance and whenever my daughter sees it, she picks at it. When I remind her not to pick it though, she stops.

[bright sparks]

My son was trained at 2 1/2 and was accident free for about 6 months and then from age 3ish until the end of SK he was peeing his pants close to 6 times a day during school hours with maybe a couple more accidents daily at home. This was not behavioural, he wasn't being defiant, he simply didn't care. It was not important to him and because it wasn't important to him retaining any kind of information with regards to toileting was almost impossible. It was only years later after extensive psychological evaluation for schooling that upon having his history taken, a psychologist explained this to me. Now this may not be the case for this child, but for mine it was and had I put him back in pull ups or a diaper, the only benefit would have been to my laundry load and floors, but wouldn't have helped my son any. That being said, he wasn't in a daycare, he was home with me. If I was faced with this here, a pull up would be a must, and I don't say that lightly as I don't even use pull ups to train in, underwear only in my daycare. I just want people to maybe think that your rational for why this is happening may be completely off as its hard to know what a child is thinking and how they interpret and process things. For my son this wasn't a case of intellectual capacity or physical or mental ability or readiness. Like anything with him during the primary grades of school, if he didn't see the importance of something, there wasn't a dam thing you could do to convince him otherwise. Also, you could go to any lengths in terms of incentives to make him go, but in all likelihood he probably didn't hear or notice any of it because his mind was on more important matters...at least to him.

In a case like this where I am hazarding a guess that there is more going on than just toileting issues, I'd be giving notice. I am not one to give up on a child, but if you have truly tried everything and its obvious that the parents aren't on board, then you have to think of the best interests of the group and how much is taken from them as a result of a child in this situation.

[Van]

Personally I would have had a hard time putting up with pee and pooh accidents because of Hygiene reasons and you can ask the parents to bring in pull-ups for her and if they don't cooperate with you it is time for the child to leave and the next child will be a lot nicer than this one

[monkey25]

Ok, friends.....I JUST found at lastnight that she wears pull ups at home!!!! No wonder she doesn't have accidents at home!!!!!!!!!!! Can I pull all my hair out, now?!?! Why? Why knowing she has to be in pull ups all day at home would you send her here without them?!?! Am I taking crazy pills?!?!

[monkey25]

she doesn't react when she has the accidents. its like nothing has even happened. as for the other issues, I will say 'please stop picking at my carpet' and she will stare me in the eyes, straight faced and keep doing it.

[flowerchild]

Did I read that right? She wears pull ups at home, but they've been sending her to daycare in underpants. When she has multiple accidents continually and you've tried to address that with them they have just laughed and shrugged it off. They never mentioned that she doesn't wear underpants at home in those discussions? They knew she was peeing all over your home and they still didn't bring it up?

Unless I've misunderstood or there is more information that you haven't provided, It's time to show them the door. So disrespectful.

[Lee-Bee]

Ummmm no. That is just not acceptable on any level. If you have been sending home soiled close (daily) and have been voicing the concerns about her lack of training and they have continued sending a child in panties when they don't have her in panties at home then they deserve a termination letter. Hopefully you can find something politically correct to put for the reason because I would have a list of not so nice ways to put it!!!!!

How disrespectful. It is one thing to hope your daycare provider will do all the work and train your child. But to not inform the provider that your over 3yr old child is in pull ups at home when you are voicing the struggles with panties in the dayhome is just deceitful.

[Suzie_Homemaker]

This really bad. I would have serious talk with parent to try and understand why this information not forthcoming esp after all your concerns were raised with parent. If at end of that, I felt they deliberately misleading, I would term. Not okay for you to have to deal with pee and poop on your carpet when parent making sure their own is protected.

[kindertime]

I agree with the others, buh-bye! Just out of curiosity, how did you find out?

[monkey25]

she told me lastnight at pickup. totally casual, like, 'oh well, cuz she's in pull ups at home, so we don't notice anything out of the ordinary' I felt like I was gonna be sick. I was so upset.

[torontokids]

So what are you going to do about it??

[monkey25]

I think I will see what I can do with the situation. I'm not one to give up on a child. As frustrated as I am with the whole situation. Obviously pull ups are a must until she is 100% absolutely accident free. No exceptions. Period.

[flowerchild]

I think you need to take this time to also address the disrespect of your property and other behaviour concerns as well.

Maybe probation? The thing is, it doesn't seem like you have the parents support in anything, so she will just continue on in this way and you will be fighting a losing battle. If her parents were OK with her peeing and pooping all over your house even though they knew she needed pull ups, they aren't going to care that she's destroying other things.

[monkey25]

That is a really good point!! I don't know why I have put up with it for so long. I just really want whats best for everyone....and then I often forget about whats best for me and my family, not to mention the other kids in my care.....to be clear, I don't forget about the other kids in my care. haha! I have brought up the fact that it is just not safe for the others to be around. There are also days that I have to completely close down the toy area because I can't bust out the carpet cleaner with all these kids running around. Of course, I do what I can to clean it in the time being, but I can't get a really good clean until everybody leaves. In fact, I bought a carpet cleaner specifically because of the toilet issues from this child.

[mickyc]

So how long have you had this child? Have they always brought her in panties? Did they tell you she was fully trained? I am a little confused to how you got to this point.

Did she enter your daycare under the understanding she was trained?

Personally I would have demanded pull-ups after the first few days of accidents. I have zero tolerance for such disrespect of your home. You can steam your carpet all you want but ultimately it is ruined and will need replacing.

[monkey25]

I have had her for 2 years. This has been a problem since she was in diapers. I would have to tape the tabs on her diaper down so she couldn't take it off at naptime, on many occasions i would check on her and she would be covered in poop.
I helped potty train her....i have helped potty train many kids, including my son, who was trained in 2 days. Understanding every child is different, but this is out of control. They just stopped packing pull ups. I remind and remind them and they would forget and i suppose i just gave up? It feels pretty defeating sometimes. There have been nights where i just cry because i feel like I'm failing this child.
i know i sound stupid. I know i am being taken advantage of. But for some reason i keep thinking i can fix the problem.

[Lee-Bee]

I have had her for 2 years. This has been a problem since she was in diapers. I would have to tape the tabs on her diaper down so she couldn't take it off at naptime, on many occasions i would check on her and she would be covered in poop.
I helped potty train her....i have helped potty train many kids, including my son, who was trained in 2 days. Understanding every child is different, but this is out of control. They just stopped packing pull ups. I remind and remind them and they would forget and i suppose i just gave up? It feels pretty defeating sometimes. There have been nights where i just cry because i feel like I'm failing this child.
i know i sound stupid. I know i am being taken advantage of. But for some reason i keep thinking i can fix the problem.


I know the vast majority of us enter the field of childcare to give our all to the children but ultimately we NEED to put ourselves first, then our families THEN our daycare families. If we put the daycare families first then we start to wear down and no one benefits.

Sometime the best fix for this time of problem, what may be best for that child long run is to terminate. It may be a bit of a reality check for that family who will have to kick it into high gear, find a new daycare and put their own effort into training the child. Long term...this benefits the child more than you bearing the burden of trying to pick up the pieces behind a family that is being disrespectful.

Set your emotions aside and figure out what is best for YOU here...and that will end up being what is best for all your daycare families, including this child.

[Van]

I agree with Lee-Bee We don't have to fix every child sometimes we have to think of ourselves first or we be no good to our family and clients- put in an ad and get a new child and let this family go because of the lack of respect and no pull-up , you won't believe the difference in your self, and your day will be so much easier and your own family will love the new you as you won't feel so defeated. let the toilet training be the parents worry for a change

[bright sparks]

You aren't letting the child down, her parents are. By accepting the child into your daycare without a pull up which she undoubtedly needs, and having done this repeatedly, there is no incentive for the parents to meet your request. If you absolutely want to try for the child's sake,you need to get in touch with this family over the weekend. Not text or email, a phone call where you can exchange dialogue. Do not ask ther parents to do anything, that implies a choice, tell them that Monday morning she must arrive in a pull up and with additional pull ups. Make it very clear to them that should this not happen on Monday, or any other day for that matter, she will be turned away. If they try to pull a fast one and drop her off and say "oh I forgot. I'll nip and get them now and be back in 5" I call BS! Do not allow them to do that with their track record. Chances are they wont bring them and you'll have allowed them to take control of the situation by not following your rules. Once she is back in pull ups permanently and consistently, you will be able to work on her other issues easier without the whole toileting obstacles. This is the only chance you have of gaining back control and calling the shots with this family and with your business. Should they choice to try and disrespect you again by not doing as they are told, essentially, then make absolutely sure you give them notice. If you do not back up what you say, then it won't be at all surprising should they continue to not give a toss what you want and keep marching to the beat of their own drum. Rest assured though, you are going above and beyond in your role as caregiver to this child and no matter how hard you work, if they refuse to get on board 100%, you are fighting a losing battle. Shame on them!

[mickyc]

It sounds as though you do not have a firm potty training guide in place. I do not allow the switch from pull-ups to panties until there has been 2 weeks accident free. My policy also states that in the event there are multiple accidents I reserve the right to put child back in pull-ups. It also states that not to send child in underwear until I approve it!!!! This is my home and I have invested a lot of money into my daycare and home and certainly not about to allow a child to poop and pee all over the place just because mom is too lazy to send pull-ups.

My contract also states failure to follow my policies may result in termination. If your contract doesn't have these in place I strongly suggest you add them.

You need to get tough with this family and demand pull-ups as well as respect for your rules!

[Crayola kiddies]

Ok, friends.....I JUST found at lastnight that she wears pull ups at home!!!! No wonder she doesn't have accidents at home!!!!!!!!!!! Can I pull all my hair out, now?!?! Why? Why knowing she has to be in pull ups all day at home would you send her here without them?!?! Am I taking crazy pills?!?!


...... Ummmm...... NEXT.....

[monkey25]

They forgot the pull ups.....i told them i needed them, and they were all 'we will be late for work'' they brought me one, and told me we are going to have to talk abot this later. How are they mad at me?! I don't get it. After 2 years, i think i deserve some respect.

[Lee-Bee]

They forgot the pull ups.....i told them i needed them, and they were all 'we will be late for work'' they brought me one, and told me we are going to have to talk abot this later. How are they mad at me?! I don't get it. After 2 years, i think i deserve some respect.

I am so sorry to hear this. Would you be able to fill this spot quickly? I personally would have a letter of termination in hand at end of day...with today being the last day of care. I can't help but feel like they would make the next 2 weeks miserable if you gave 2 weeks. They are not treating you with respect they view themselves as calling the shots and it will not be an easy task to change their view. Personally I would have had enough of them and be done.

[bright sparks]

I am so sorry to hear this. Would you be able to fill this spot quickly? I personally would have a letter of termination in hand at end of day...with today being the last day of care. I can't help but feel like they would make the next 2 weeks miserable if you gave 2 weeks. They are not treating you with respect they view themselves as calling the shots and it will not be an easy task to change their view. Personally I would have had enough of them and be done.

I agree...the we need to talk comment makes me think that they think this is something up for negotiation and in all likelihood they will try to over rule you with their reasoning which I also wouldn't trust given the fact that they have kept things from you in the past. At the very least have a letter ready for them should things go further south at pick up.

[Lee-Bee]

If you do decide to keep them on. I would have them bring a case of pull ups tonight. Not in the morning as you risk this same scenario. They bring it tonight a case big enough to last a few weeks. Clearly providing a day to day supply is not working.

But, frankly, I think they have burnt their bridges here and just need to be let go.

[monkey25]

Would I give them their cheque for the month back? They don't pay on the 1st of the month, because they "couldn't" so , I made their fees due on the 20th of the month.
I was thinking of giving them a months notice, just because I feel like if I am too tough, it will somehow come back to bite me on the butt.

[torontokids]

So are you working at the moment for free? They could up and leave right now because they haven't paid? These people are more trouble than they are worth.

What kind of notice period do you have in your contract?

I don't think they have given you enough of a reason to terminate without notice. I am getting the sense that maybe you haven't been communicating things super clearly and you have been giving them 2nd and 3rd chances. I would personally follow your contract re: notice period but offer them their money back (if they paid in advance) if they leave right away.

[monkey25]

I will give them 1 months notice.
I have been communicating the best I can with them. I send notes home, I write emails, I talk face to face. what more can I do?

[dodge__driver11]

Honestly, I would be terming with no notice, with cause. End of story

[Lee-Bee]

Please, if you give them 1 months notice (or any length of notice) please please put it in writing and have them sign it that should they not provide pull ups (and list all other manners of disrespect) that they then terminate care immediately.

They have the power to make the next month living hell should they choose. Make them agree in writing to behave respectfully. You are giving them a lot of good will here, they need to do the same in return!!

[monkey25]

I gave the 1 months notice, and they seemed a little too, happy? I'm not sure if they were just shocked and decided to make it seem like it's not a big deal but I feel very relieved and I can't wait to feel normal again! No more stress! I really hope the next centre she goes to is able to get a better response from this family. I would hate for this poor little one to be bounced around from daycare to daycare. I guess I just need to let it go now. Thank you all so much for your support!! It is nice to feel like so many people have my back, even though I don't actually know you all. Lol!

[Lee-Bee]

I gave the 1 months notice, and they seemed a little too, happy? I'm not sure if they were just shocked and decided to make it seem like it's not a big deal but I feel very relieved and I can't wait to feel normal again! No more stress! I really hope the next centre she goes to is able to get a better response from this family. I would hate for this poor little one to be bounced around from daycare to daycare. I guess I just need to let it go now. Thank you all so much for your support!! It is nice to feel like so many people have my back, even though I don't actually know you all. Lol!

Maybe their 'happiness' was their realizing you were being quite caring and gracious in giving them a full month to get themselves set up somewhere else without a huge disruption on their end. Perhaps they realized you could have ended care immediately or with just 2 weeks notice and they were grateful for your consideration :-)

I hope the month goes quickly and smoothly for you. I hope your new little one that takes this place is a joy to work with and has respectful parents!!!

[mickyc]

That's great!

Just remember to learn from all this, change up your contract now to reflect a better potty training policy and be tough and enforce it with all new families.

Also on a side note - by allowing them to pay on the 20th instead of the 1st is letting them know your policies don't really matter that everything is negotiable. Write your contract so that it is exactly what you expect from families and don't allow any different.