Could there be changes to the CCEYA?

[lplplp]

This could be a stupid question... I think I'm just clinging onto a little bit of hope! With the Child Care and Early Years act in effect, I have been seeing and experiencing a lot of issues. All the issues we all knew would come about when the new law was implemented.... Parents not being able to find a spot for their one year old, providers not being able to fill their 'over 2' spots, etc. I was wondering if there are any groups/providers that are still trying to fight for us? Is there any chance the new act could still be changed?? Now that these problems are happening, is there a slight chance the government will see what has happened and amend the CCEYA?

[babydom]

My understanding is that it came into full effect August 31,2015. And no more changes will be made

[lplplp]

I figured there was probably no hope. Thought I'd ask just in case there was something going on I didn't know about. I feel so bad for the parents that can't find a spot for their baby or have to split up their kids and have them attend different daycares :(

[jodaycare]

CICPO is working on a co-operative type agency model and are meeting with the Ministry this month. This type of agency would allow us to remain independent but with the advantage of a licensed agency at a much lower cost than Wee Watch etc.

[playfelt]

CCPRN here in Ottawa is also involved in the meetings with the ministry. It does sound like the ministry is finally listening and realizing the quality of programs available in ICP homes. As to changes in the act that is not likely going to be anything that would make it easier for us. If anything they will gradually bring in stronger restrictions but also remember there is a very good chance the liberals will get voted out of the next election and the new government might then be persuaded to make changes and especially if there is a crisis as we suspect will be happening.

[lplplp]

CICPO is working on a co-operative type agency model and are meeting with the Ministry this month. This type of agency would allow us to remain independent but with the advantage of a licensed agency at a much lower cost than Wee Watch etc.

I am aware of this. Personally, I'm not sure if I really like the idea. It won't change the laws. If the CCEYA stays as is, parents will still have difficulty finding a space for their one year old whether we are licensed or not. The fee for the co-op may be less than the current agency model, but still a pretty hefty fee to pay in my opinion. If Universal Child Care comes into effect, the co-op would probably be beneficial so we can accept subsidized children. Other than having UCC, I'm not sure about needing a co-operative agency.

[lplplp]

CCPRN here in Ottawa is also involved in the meetings with the ministry. It does sound like the ministry is finally listening and realizing the quality of programs available in ICP homes. As to changes in the act that is not likely going to be anything that would make it easier for us. If anything they will gradually bring in stronger restrictions but also remember there is a very good chance the liberals will get voted out of the next election and the new government might then be persuaded to make changes and especially if there is a crisis as we suspect will be happening.

I will keep my fingers crossed!!!

[jodaycare]

I am aware of this. Personally, I'm not sure if I really like the idea. It won't change the laws. If the CCEYA stays as is, parents will still have difficulty finding a space for their one year old whether we are licensed or not. The fee for the co-op may be less than the current agency model, but still a pretty hefty fee to pay in my opinion. If Universal Child Care comes into effect, the co-op would probably be beneficial so we can accept subsidized children. Other than having UCC, I'm not sure about needing a co-operative agency.

Yep, it won't help the daycare crisis but it might allow us to take a 6th child into care like the agency homes are allowed. I am not sure if I will consider the co-op model either, I have been in business for over 20 years without incident, I don't need the help of an RECE to run my daycare, I am an ECE. Our only hope of changes is to kick the Liberals out of power in 2018.

[cfred]

CICPO is still working with the Ministry toward a cooperative. I'm on the board of directors now and attending the meetings with the MOE and Agencies. The cooperative is a very real prospect...next week is the big meeting where we present. No, we can't change the legislation. But, a Cooperative will be helpful for a number of reasons, including, potentially taking on a 6th child, professional development opportunities and, undoubtedly, the air of professionalism. I do think it will make the public look at ICPs differently. Sure, there is a price tag...there has to be. I don't find $700-$1000/yr all that bad, for what I get in return. I will absolutely join the Cooperative.

[ottawamommy]

This really confuses me because I don't get how it will help us in the end. Even with 6 kids if are having such a tough time filling 3 spots 24 month+ how is a sixth child going to help if many of us cant even fill the 5 spots we already have. I am also not interested in paying anymore fees for anything. This business is tough enough, anymore income loss many of us wouldn't survive

[cfred]

It's not really confusing. No, the cooperative won't help you fill your over 2 spaces and we can't change the laws of the land. However, should UCC come in, it will definitely be of help. 2 of the 3 main parties want UCC. Aside from that, the provincial Liberals' vision with daycare is licensed and institutional and we already see movement in that direction. For myself, I want the professional affiliation. I WANT to be licensed but am not willing to do that through the existing model. I want the professional development opportunities available through the Coop. I want further training, so I can have more expertise with special needs kids. And I want to be seen as a professional in the industry. I'm in this as a career choice....I didn't sign up for it to be home with my kids, though that was a perk. This is my chosen field of study and I want to further that. We all want to see a provincial minimum standard applicable to everyone, to raise the bar and weed out the mediocre and illegals. I'm not content with the status quo. We all went into this job for different reasons, and the Coop will appeal to some and not others, which is fine. There are lots of us out here who DO want it, so we're pushing it forward for them, for a modernized system that includes a fair and inclusive licensing model.

[lplplp]

This really confuses me because I don't get how it will help us in the end. Even with 6 kids if are having such a tough time filling 3 spots 24 month+ how is a sixth child going to help if many of us cant even fill the 5 spots we already have. I am also not interested in paying anymore fees for anything. This business is tough enough, anymore income loss many of us wouldn't survive

I totally agree with everything here!

If the co-op is formed and especially if UCC gets implemented, we may have no choice but to join in order to stay in business. If many providers begin joining the co-op, parents will wonder why an ICP is choosing not to join and I'm sure they will go for one that is a part of the co-op. With UCC, if we are not able to accept subsidized children, we will be limiting the amount of families we would be able to take on. I guess we will just have to wait and see how everything plays out!

[ottawamommy]

I totally agree with everything here!

If the co-op is formed and especially if UCC gets implemented, we may have no choice but to join in order to stay in business. If many providers begin joining the co-op, parents will wonder why an ICP is choosing not to join and I'm sure they will go for one that is a part of the co-op. With UCC, if we are not able to accept subsidized children, we will be limiting the amount of families we would be able to take on. I guess we will just have to wait and see how everything plays out!

See that's what I don't understand. What about providers (like myself) who are not interested in taking on subsidized children. When I first opened up my daycare I was licensed through the region and dealt with A LOT of welfare cases and I will never ever go back to that again. I am not private and will never go back to being licensed.

I have a family who currently works at McDonalds and told me that they didn't qualify for help because they made too much money so it worries me for who would actually qualify. That family struggles and has never ever had a late payment or complained about my rate increase. The issues with this province is much deeper then child care.

All I know is that I am not interested in paying anymore money for anything. We all ready have so many extra things to pay for and have a limited income. If we were able to run a business like every other one in the world where we are not limited income then that's a different story but it seems to me like the goal is to close our doors and make us struggle.

[cfred]

Don't forget that you can adjust your rates to absorb the fees. I would expect that everyone who joins will do that. It's also tax deductible. I think your point about parents looking to Coop affiliates is probably accurate. We already see that (to some extent) with the current agencies. However, a lot of agency care is, according to parents I've talked to, not all that awesome for the simple reason that the providers aren't left with enough money to reinvest in their businesses. I think that plays against the Agency sector's popularity. I just put together a video presentation of ICP care with submissions from all over the province. I can say that there are some amazing, AMAZING home daycares out there! Made me quite proud of our industry, actually :) There will always be people who think licensed is the bees knees, not really understanding the system. Once a coop is in place, and we can preserve our autonomy while bringing in the appropriate oversight, I would think parents would absolutely take that into consideration and competition will be just that much stiffer. Or I could be completely wrong.

[ottawamommy]

It's not really confusing. No, the cooperative won't help you fill your over 2 spaces and we can't change the laws of the land. However, should UCC come in, it will definitely be of help. 2 of the 3 main parties want UCC. Aside from that, the provincial Liberals' vision with daycare is licensed and institutional and we already see movement in that direction. For myself, I want the professional affiliation. I WANT to be licensed but am not willing to do that through the existing model. I want the professional development opportunities available through the Coop. I want further training, so I can have more expertise with special needs kids. And I want to be seen as a professional in the industry. I'm in this as a career choice....I didn't sign up for it to be home with my kids, though that was a perk. This is my chosen field of study and I want to further that. We all want to see a provincial minimum standard applicable to everyone, to raise the bar and weed out the mediocre and illegals. I'm not content with the status quo. We all went into this job for different reasons, and the Coop will appeal to some and not others, which is fine. There are lots of us out here who DO want it, so we're pushing it forward for them, for a modernized system that includes a fair and inclusive licensing model.

Many won't see us as more "professional" because we are licensed and those who do may be brain washed. I use to be licensed and was still called a babysitter. It's that mind set of making people think that private isn't as professional as licensed when in fact I think it's the opposite.

In my area licensed home daycares are know to be worse than private because the licensed ones here are the ones who aren't up to par and need the agency to help them find clients because they can't do it them selves. There was a LICENSED provider shut down in our area because she kept children locked in the room and watch them on a baby monitor.

As for education you don't need the government for professional development you can do that on your own and you don't need them to be a professional in this industry all you need is a creative mind, love for children and a niche!

[ottawamommy]

Don't forget that you can adjust your rates to absorb the fees. I would expect that everyone who joins will do that. It's also tax deductible. I think your point about parents looking to Coop affiliates is probably accurate. We already see that (to some extent) with the current agencies. However, a lot of agency care is, according to parents I've talked to, not all that awesome for the simple reason that the providers aren't left with enough money to reinvest in their businesses. I think that plays against the Agency sector's popularity. I just put together a video presentation of ICP care with submissions from all over the province. I can say that there are some amazing, AMAZING home daycares out there! Made me quite proud of our industry, actually :) There will always be people who think licensed is the bees knees, not really understanding the system. Once a coop is in place, and we can preserve our autonomy while bringing in the appropriate oversight, I would think parents would absolutely take that into consideration and competition will be just that much stiffer. Or I could be completely wrong.

I get what you are saying but if I keep increasing my rates how is home daycare going to be more affordable vs a center. My goal is to offer qualify child care as a low cost not to keep raising my rates. Believe is or not a family asked me if I was licensed and I said nope private and their words were "thank god" lol

[cfred]

Lol...I don't doubt that (re the parent being relieved that you weren't licensed). The word is starting to get around about the licensed sector. And I understand what you're saying about keeping your rates down. But I think the increase would be something like $1/day....maybe a little more, but not much. $700-$1000 spread out over a year really isn't much.

It's unfortunate that the government put us in this position...but they have. All we can do now is move forward and change with the times. I just read that they are, indeed, opening up a bunch of new institutional spaces, so the move to licensing is coming. That's my feeling. There is also a massive campaign from the childcare advocates for UCC and regulating everyone. When I say massive, I'm not exaggerating. I plan to prepare myself for that eventuality. I want the option there to be licensed. If the Cooperative doesn't get off the ground because of lack of support, that's one very nice option that you won't have and that would be a shame....and probably a regret down the road. Waiting to see how it all plays out before offering support is a short sighted notion...by the time it plays out, it may be too late and that alternative is lost and the existing agency model is all that's left. Does that make sense?

[lplplp]

See that's what I don't understand. What about providers (like myself) who are not interested in taking on subsidized children. When I first opened up my daycare I was licensed through the region and dealt with A LOT of welfare cases and I will never ever go back to that again. I am not private and will never go back to being licensed.

I have a family who currently works at McDonalds and told me that they didn't qualify for help because they made too much money so it worries me for who would actually qualify. That family struggles and has never ever had a late payment or complained about my rate increase. The issues with this province is much deeper then child care.

All I know is that I am not interested in paying anymore money for anything. We all ready have so many extra things to pay for and have a limited income. If we were able to run a business like every other one in the world where we are not limited income then that's a different story but it seems to me like the goal is to close our doors and make us struggle.

With Universal Child Care (if it comes into effect), my understanding is that it will be just that... Universal. That means it would be for anyone regardless of income. So, not necessarily families on welfare. What I understand, is that if NDP gets elected, they want to make 1,000,000 Universal Child Care spaces at a rate of $15/day. If it is universal, the spaces should be able to be used by any family and in order to take any children that have those spaces, we would need to be licensed. This brings up a lot more questions! What I would like to know is if the UCC spaces can go to anyone regardless of income, how will they decide who gets them? 1,000,000 spaces is not enough for all of Canada. Will they give the spaces to the lower income families first? If so, then it shouldn't really be called Universal Child Care. If not, then will there be some lower income families left paying higher rates because they missed out on a UCC space? If the spaces go to lower income families first, then yes, you have a point. Many providers may not want to accept those children anyway.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong about anything!

[lplplp]

Don't forget that you can adjust your rates to absorb the fees. I would expect that everyone who joins will do that. It's also tax deductible. I think your point about parents looking to Coop affiliates is probably accurate. We already see that (to some extent) with the current agencies. However, a lot of agency care is, according to parents I've talked to, not all that awesome for the simple reason that the providers aren't left with enough money to reinvest in their businesses. I think that plays against the Agency sector's popularity. I just put together a video presentation of ICP care with submissions from all over the province. I can say that there are some amazing, AMAZING home daycares out there! Made me quite proud of our industry, actually :) There will always be people who think licensed is the bees knees, not really understanding the system. Once a coop is in place, and we can preserve our autonomy while bringing in the appropriate oversight, I would think parents would absolutely take that into consideration and competition will be just that much stiffer. Or I could be completely wrong.

Do parents really want us increasing our rates again?? Many providers have already done this due to Bill 10. How high can we go before parents can't even afford a home daycare? A lot of parents choose a home daycare because the cost of centres can be outrageous. My rate currently is very average, even slightly below average... When I get contacted by parents, quite a few say they can't afford my rate as it is now, especially if they have more than one child. Becoming a part of the co-op and having to increase our rates could make us have even more trouble filling our spaces. Parents think child care is too expensive as it is.

[lplplp]

Lol...I don't doubt that (re the parent being relieved that you weren't licensed). The word is starting to get around about the licensed sector. And I understand what you're saying about keeping your rates down. But I think the increase would be something like $1/day....maybe a little more, but not much. $700-$1000 spread out over a year really isn't much.

It's unfortunate that the government put us in this position...but they have. All we can do now is move forward and change with the times. I just read that they are, indeed, opening up a bunch of new institutional spaces, so the move to licensing is coming. That's my feeling. There is also a massive campaign from the childcare advocates for UCC and regulating everyone. When I say massive, I'm not exaggerating. I plan to prepare myself for that eventuality. I want the option there to be licensed. If the Cooperative doesn't get off the ground because of lack of support, that's one very nice option that you won't have and that would be a shame....and probably a regret down the road. Waiting to see how it all plays out before offering support is a short sighted notion...by the time it plays out, it may be too late and that alternative is lost and the existing agency model is all that's left. Does that make sense?


When I say waiting to see how it plays out, I meant including the co-op... Waiting to see if the government allows it and then waiting to see what happens with UCC. Most of us aren't involved with creating the co-op so all we can do is wait and see if it comes to light and then make our decision about it.

I definitely think $700-$1000 a year is a lot!! We will have to just disagree on that point lol.

[cfred]

When I support the Coop, I mean fill in the surveys, etc that help us to gather data and put together our proposal. That has been the biggest frustration and the most work...getting people to participate. You may feel that you're not involved, but you can be on some level. Next week is the big meeting...our biggest I think. We're pitching the idea to the head of the Early Years Division and in front of agency big wigs (who are as hostile to us in person as they are in the media, btw). A tremendous amount of work has gone into this, with my portion being quite humble compared to others.

Yes, that amount is nothing to sneeze at. However, it is a far cry better than $12,000/yr.

So far as raising rates, I know it can be more difficult in some areas, I'm aware of that. I simply threw it out there as an example of what you can do to make the fees more manageable. We know not everyone will join the Coop, and that' completely fine. We have a fairly specific demographic. The question to ask yourself is this "Is this an option I might appreciate in the future?" The advocates will never stop pushing us down...ever. Every time there's an infant death, we'll be on the front pages and our sector takes another hit. They are and will continue to work to push us out of the industry. Were any of you even notified of the new bill when they started consultation on it several years ago? How many of you didn't hear about it till it hit the news? The agencies knew and were heavily involved in the creation of the new legislation, from it's inception! Go read some articles, talk to other ICPs involved in this, read up on folks like Martha Friendly, Marni Flaherty, members of HCCAO, CBCC. THESE have been the influences over the government's leanings for years. CICPO is in there now, and the MOE is interested. If you don't want to participate in the Coop, fine. But really, support the people who are representing you and working to change the image of independent care for ALL of you...even those who don't want to join the Coop.

[babydom]

My worry is if we are "forced" into the coop eventually. Because we can't fill spots because parents want providers attached to the coop or for other reasons. Or I want to join but As a single mom with a full daycare I am extremely tight. Even if I raise my rates, which I can't because I'm already on the high end how do I afford the coop fee??? It may just be 700-1000$ to most caregivers but to me, even 58-83$ a mth is hard. I dont have that.

[lplplp]

My worry is if we are "forced" into the coop eventually. Because we can't fill spots because parents want providers attached to the coop or for other reasons. Or I want to join but As a single mom with a full daycare I am extremely tight. Even if I raise my rates, which I can't because I'm already on the high end how do I afford the coop fee??? It may just be 700-1000$ to most caregivers but to me, even 58-83$ a mth is hard. I dont have that.

I agree. If the co-op is approved and comes to light sooner than later, my own children could still be under 6 which leaves me only 3 daycare spaces. I've had an 'over 2' space sitting empty for quite a while now. With only 2 daycare children, there's no way I could afford it. Even if I was full, money would still be tight. When my children are over 6 and I have more spaces, who knows if I'll be able to fill them all with the new rules. So even then, it could be very difficult paying such a large fee. I wish we could have some sort of association maybe instead of an agency. I think a lot of providers would be more willing to join a province-wide association for a much lower fee. I'm thinking a couple hundred dollars a year max. It would show our professionalism by choosing to belong to the association. I don't see why workshops and such couldn't be offered with something like that as well. If you want to participate in a certain workshop or course, etc., you would pay a separate fee for it. If you don't, you just pay your membership fee yearly. Just my thoughts! If you want to accept subsidized children, then you would still have to join an agency of course. I just think the cost of the co-op is a little outrageous.

[lplplp]

I know that a portion of the co-op fee would go towards inspections. I'm not someone that's all for the inspections. I'm running my own business out of my own home. Having someone come into my house to inspect my home and how I'm running my daycare is invasive. If the ministry really wants oversight for all home daycares, they should make their own plan to have this happen. Maybe have all home daycares have to register so that they are aware of each daycare's location. They can send inspectors if they wish. Having a portion of the co-op fee go towards inspections is essentially me paying to have myself inspected lol.

[cfred]

The fee increase to absorb a $700-$1000 membership fee is $0.60 to $0.85 per child per day. That is really not an astronomical increase. My contract is set up to increase by $1/day/year just to keep up with the cost of living, therefore I won't need to implement an increase. But really, I know the full amount looks intimidating, but a less than $1/day increase? That's what would hold you back? Maybe I'm missing something.....

And no one is going to force anyone into the coop. If you don't want to join, then don't. It's all good. But there are many of us who do want this and we're working hard to bring it to fruition. Our model is far less invasive than the agency model, but there will be oversight. The ministry will NOT come up with their own plan to do this. They have said it. They won't foot the bill, which is why agency fees are so high. Our model is far more streamlined than the existing model, though we have to work through the nuts and bolts of it still. And you may think the cost of the coop is outrageous, but that's the cost for the inspections, which are a necessity for licensing. And truthfully, I'd like to see our sector opened up for ministry inspections. We all know that there are some bad providers out there. If this helps isolate them and push them out of the industry, then all the better IMO.

[cfred]

"The decision to become licensed is a purely personal one. Some would see no benefits to it and others would like the option of the 6th child accepting families on subsidized care, being provided ongoing professional development and more without losing the autonomy enjoyed by icps. To some these opportunities are worth a membership fee, to others not so much. But over all the benefit of the cooperative is to provide icps with another option where, currently there are only two: independent or agency affiliated."

Heidi Higgins

[lplplp]

If the co-op came to light today, with the 2 daycare children I have currently, my rates would have to increase by $2.15/day. We all go through periods of time when we have empty spaces for a little while as well. In my opinion, the daily rate would have to be raised by more than you stated to be sure we could cover the cost of the co-op. If the co-op existed today and I raised my rates, that $2.15 a day adds up to another $500 a year for the parent. I understand we won't be forced to join. But, if it comes to fruition it will feel like I have to in order to stay in business. I do appreciate that someone out there is trying to come up with a solution for us. Not everyone will agree with all the details of it though. How would the co-op force the bad apples out of the business? For sure, the bad providers (most of them anyway), would not join the co-op which means there will still be no oversight for them. And, if many good providers choose not to join the agency, how would they know who the good and bad providers are? Someone would have to file a complaint with the ministry about a bad provider which can be done already.

[lplplp]

"The decision to become licensed is a purely personal one. Some would see no benefits to it and others would like the option of the 6th child accepting families on subsidized care, being provided ongoing professional development and more without losing the autonomy enjoyed by icps. To some these opportunities are worth a membership fee, to others not so much. But over all the benefit of the cooperative is to provide icps with another option where, currently there are only two: independent or agency affiliated."

Heidi Higgins

To me, the co-op would push the providers that wish to remain completely independent, out of the business. I don't really see it as an 'option'. If it happens, parents would not understand why you do not want to be a part of the agency that has been made specifically for ICPs. Parents will be inclined to choose a provider that is with the agency which will make it very difficult for the other providers that do not wish to join the agency.

[babydom]

If I got away with increasing my rates 1$ a day to have an extra 100$ a mth.....I'd love to keep that 100$ for myself not give it away to the co-op. Just saying

[kindertime]

I know I've asked this before, and I don't think the NDP even have this answer yet, but if they do implement a Universal Childcare plan at $15/day, how much will the daycare get?

The way it works in Quebec, if a person wants to open a home daycare, they have 2 choices. Be subsidized or be private. Private is like the rest of the country; charge whatever you want and operate how you want, with the only restriction being a max of 6 kids under age 9. Any parent who wants to go to a private daycare can and they pay the full fee.

If you are recognized (licenced and subsidized) then ALL of the parents who come your daycare (if they are Quebec residents) are eligible. So it's not the child who brings the subsidy with them from daycare to daycare, it's the daycare who offers subsidized spaces. I am guessing... the UCC that the NDP is proposing will be like that.

In my area, the coordinating office that recognizes us and distributes the subsidy is granted about 200 home childcare spaces. They licence home daycares to fill them. I am one of them. I charge the parents $7.30/day and I get an additional $25.85/day in subsidy. In fact, it is illegal for me to charge "full fee" to any parent who is a Quebec resident.

The subsidy amount is what you should be asking your local NDP candidate about. If the parents are paying you the $15/day, what will the government kick in on top of it?

Before we unionized, the subsidy was $19/day. And the parents paid $7. AND - it is important to note that ALL food and ALL supplies are included in that price. There are very strict rules about what we are and aren't allowed to charge extra for. So now because of the union, the subsidy is $25.85 and the parents pay $7.30 (but the government claws back that $.30 on every pay so we only still get the $7.) These amounts are the same across the whole province, city and country. High-end and low-end.

The reason I'm saying this, cuz I know no one in the rest of the country wants to do anything like Quebec... is just be careful what you wish for. If today, a private ICP in Toronto can easily charge $50/day and a private ICP in rural Saskatchewan can only charge $20/day.... there is the potential for a lot of loss of income if the UCC comes into force. Because likely.... it is my guess, that the amount paid by the government to the newly subsidized childcare provider in Toronto will not be even remotely close to $50/day. It is possible the subsidy amounts will vary by province, but maybe not for long.

[cfred]

I don't think it will be a case of 'everyone' jumping on board with the Coop. Like I mentioned briefly, we have a specific demographic that will be our more likely group. So far as pushing out the poor providers, I'm not stating that the Coop is going to be the sole reason for pushing them out. BUT, it will be another blow against them. CICPO isn't just about the Coop. We've also spearheaded a major public awareness campaign to (for lack of a better term) clear the names and reinforce the reputations of all ICPs. The video presentation I just put together will also be going out on social media (FB, Twitter, Youtube, etc) to further promote our sector. The coop will help with that. If everyone came on board, it would undoubtedly push them out, but as it stands, that likely won't happen...but every little bit helps. And after the Coop is either granted or not, there will, I'm sure, be even MORE public awareness and media coverage.

Don't start looking at this as an US vs YOU thing. It isn't. We're on the side of all dedicated ICPs. But the coop is something many of us want and we feel it's a good alternative to have. However, it would be nice if all providers, even if not affiliated with the Cooperative, lent their support to the group as a whole, as they've certainly lent their support to all of us. This is much bigger than the Cooperative. It' about combating the negative image put out there by the government, the agencies and the childcare advocates.

[Artsand crafts]

Cfred, thank you for all the great work that has bring us as far as MOE now hearing ICP proposals. I will definitely join a Co-op if that is approved. I have a question, has there been any talks about the 12 kids 2 caregivers model? I would be willing to pay on the high end of the fee if that model is in the table. Lots of parents in my area are very interested on licensed daycare and willing to pay for it and there would be a great demand I believe if I could get my daycare "licensed".

[ottawamommy]

I just wanted to point something out. The monthly fee to be associated with an agency is extremely high and should be illegal. There is NO WAY it costs the agency to do 2 yearly inspections a year 500-1000 dollars a month when the ministry of education is targeting and doing RANDOM inspections for home daycare providers (I had mine last month). They are inspecting us by targeting to make sure we are not "illegal' so why even pay an agency when we are technically getting the inspection for free!

Kindertime is right I asked an agency what I would take home and they said $25 a day lol meanwhile the going rate is 35-50 in my area.

[cfred]

Thanks Arts and Crafts! I'm so happy to hear that! I believe we would be entitled to the same perks as any licensed agency.

Ottawamommy, that's what we thought, too. There is quite a bit of misunderstanding about the agency model and where the funds go. It actually is very expensive to run. Each 25 providers has an RECE who pays monthly visits for mentoring, support, safety inspections, etc. Having an RECE home visitor is mandatory with the licensing process and there's no way around it. However, we're seeking a small regulatory change to get it down to quarterly visits for those providers who don't require so much support. It's not the just Ministry inspections you pay for. We're weeding through all the muck and sorting out which agency policies are actually government mandated and which are inflated by the agencies themselves. See, quarterly visits are actually what is government mandated to begin with, so we actually have a decent shot at this. If we get the Coop off the ground, we will be offering a greatly streamlined model compared to the existing agency model. We just don't need what they're offering and it would be nice to have another option out there. But the ministry has said, flat out, that they will not be providing funding, hence the fees. That's what's going on with agencies too. There just isn't enough money to go around. From what I've seen, the majority of the funding goes into institutional care, but even that is dismal.

[cfred]

Arts and Crafts...I'll come in and update after the meeting on the 15th. Keep an eye out. Really, we all felt very good about the response from the head of the Early Years Division after our last meeting (enough that we high fived when we got out of eyesight :) ) We have cogent arguments and a solid foundation of research...not to mention and ultra cute and squishy video to get everyone 'in the mood' to hear us out. We intend to show them how amazing our sector really is. We're willing to bet they're going to be blown away when they see what we really offer!

[lplplp]

I don't think it will be a case of 'everyone' jumping on board with the Coop. Like I mentioned briefly, we have a specific demographic that will be our more likely group. So far as pushing out the poor providers, I'm not stating that the Coop is going to be the sole reason for pushing them out. BUT, it will be another blow against them. CICPO isn't just about the Coop. We've also spearheaded a major public awareness campaign to (for lack of a better term) clear the names and reinforce the reputations of all ICPs. The video presentation I just put together will also be going out on social media (FB, Twitter, Youtube, etc) to further promote our sector. The coop will help with that. If everyone came on board, it would undoubtedly push them out, but as it stands, that likely won't happen...but every little bit helps. And after the Coop is either granted or not, there will, I'm sure, be even MORE public awareness and media coverage.

Don't start looking at this as an US vs YOU thing. It isn't. We're on the side of all dedicated ICPs. But the coop is something many of us want and we feel it's a good alternative to have. However, it would be nice if all providers, even if not affiliated with the Cooperative, lent their support to the group as a whole, as they've certainly lent their support to all of us. This is much bigger than the Cooperative. It' about combating the negative image put out there by the government, the agencies and the childcare advocates.

I do not think its you vs. us. That is clearly not the case. As I said, I am happy that someone is trying to find a solution for us. I personally, just see problems with this and I'm just stating my point of view on it. Some providers will be excited about the co-op. Some will not be.

[lplplp]

I just wanted to point something out. The monthly fee to be associated with an agency is extremely high and should be illegal. There is NO WAY it costs the agency to do 2 yearly inspections a year 500-1000 dollars a month when the ministry of education is targeting and doing RANDOM inspections for home daycare providers (I had mine last month). They are inspecting us by targeting to make sure we are not "illegal' so why even pay an agency when we are technically getting the inspection for free!

Kindertime is right I asked an agency what I would take home and they said $25 a day lol meanwhile the going rate is 35-50 in my area.

This is why I said that if the Ministry really wants oversight of all home daycares, they should figure it out themselves. There have been many, many inspectors visiting daycares in my area to make sure they are in compliance with the new laws. They should just continue this if they want to make sure everyone is in compliance. Like I said earlier, for me to have to pay to have myself inspected is a little crazy!

However, ottawamommy, what you're referring to is the current agency model. The co-op would be different and cost less.

[Artsand crafts]

This is why I said that if the Ministry really wants oversight of all home daycares, they should figure it out themselves. There have been many, many inspectors visiting daycares in my area to make sure they are in compliance with the new laws. They should just continue this if they want to make sure everyone is in compliance. Like I said earlier, for me to have to pay to have myself inspected is a little crazy!

The problem is that MOE is not looking to improve quality of daycare (or oversight) they are just trying to look like they are doing their job. This law would not have prevented the Vaughan toddler's death, but for some reason this is the best "solution" they found to look good in the media. For that reason I don't see why they would be interested on investing a penny on us. We now have to look for our ourselves and fortunately someone is doing so now through CIPCO. No model is perfect, I wish I have to pay not even a single dime to get "licensed", but money to pay an inspector (which is a minimum requirement) has to come from somewhere.

[Artsand crafts]

Arts and Crafts...I'll come in and update after the meeting on the 15th. Keep an eye out. Really, we all felt very good about the response from the head of the Early Years Division after our last meeting (enough that we high fived when we got out of eyesight :) ) We have cogent arguments and a solid foundation of research...not to mention and ultra cute and squishy video to get everyone 'in the mood' to hear us out. We intend to show them how amazing our sector really is. We're willing to bet they're going to be blown away when they see what we really offer!

I am sure you guys will do a great job. I watched the audiences before the law was approved and there were very educated and articulated ladies speaking on our behalf with great speeches. I think from then on we have changed they way some politicians look at us.

[betsy]

I am aware of this. Personally, I'm not sure if I really like the idea. It won't change the laws. If the CCEYA stays as is, parents will still have difficulty finding a space for their one year old whether we are licensed or not. The fee for the co-op may be less than the current agency model, but still a pretty hefty fee to pay in my opinion. If Universal Child Care comes into effect, the co-op would probably be beneficial so we can accept subsidized children. Other than having UCC, I'm not sure about needing a co-operative agency.

I think if you're licensed, you can accept subsidized children. Isn't that true?

[betsy]

CICPO is still working with the Ministry toward a cooperative. I'm on the board of directors now and attending the meetings with the MOE and Agencies. The cooperative is a very real prospect...next week is the big meeting where we present. No, we can't change the legislation. But, a Cooperative will be helpful for a number of reasons, including, potentially taking on a 6th child, professional development opportunities and, undoubtedly, the air of professionalism. I do think it will make the public look at ICPs differently. Sure, there is a price tag...there has to be. I don't find $700-$1000/yr all that bad, for what I get in return. I will absolutely join the Cooperative.

Can we take subsidized children, if we're licensed by Coop? That's a big issue since usually that's what prevents a parent from enrolling in a home daycare that's not under any agencies - they're qualified for subsidy.

[cfred]

In theory, yes. Being licensed does open you up to subsidy. Subsidies are typically handled municipally, not provincially, so it adds another layer of bureaucracy to the fold and we're not sure how that will affect it.. We're having a meeting via teleconference tomorrow night. I've made a note to ask about this and will get back to you on Thursday morning. I want to leave this question to Heidi as I'm not quite as well versed in it. Okay?

[betsy]

I get what you are saying but if I keep increasing my rates how is home daycare going to be more affordable vs a center. My goal is to offer qualify child care as a low cost not to keep raising my rates. Believe is or not a family asked me if I was licensed and I said nope private and their words were "thank god" lol


The way I see it, the private home daycares are slowly getting squeezed out. They're making it tougher. There are political parties who will want a universal daycare, and once that's implemented hardly any private home daycares can compete....unless we become like old-time babysitters who can be dimed away.

I think there's not that much choice left but to evolve with the times. Having said that.....does a COOP license require us to have ECE diploma before we get licensed?

[betsy]

With Universal Child Care (if it comes into effect), my understanding is that it will be just that... Universal. That means it would be for anyone regardless of income. So, not necessarily families on welfare. What I understand, is that if NDP gets elected, they want to make 1,000,000 Universal Child Care spaces at a rate of $15/day. If it is universal, the spaces should be able to be used by any family and in order to take any children that have those spaces, we would need to be licensed. This brings up a lot more questions! What I would like to know is if the UCC spaces can go to anyone regardless of income, how will they decide who gets them? 1,000,000 spaces is not enough for all of Canada. Will they give the spaces to the lower income families first? If so, then it shouldn't really be called Universal Child Care. If not, then will there be some lower income families left paying higher rates because they missed out on a UCC space? If the spaces go to lower income families first, then yes, you have a point. Many providers may not want to accept those children anyway.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong about anything!

I predict that 1,000,000 spaces is just the start.
NDP is most likely trying to appear prudent and maybe not want to scare off voters with a humongous price tag.

I won't be surprised if in the near future, there'll be a platform that will push for total universal daycare in the next round of election.

[cfred]

No, Betsy, the coop will not require you to have an ECE diploma. In fact, none of the the founders had them. I do, but not everyone does. We are simply ICPs supporting ICPs. We value dedication to the profession and quality thereof.

Regarding UCC. I wouldn't spend too much time panicking about that right now. Mulcair is slipping in the polls and he also needs all the provinces to kick in 40% of the cost of his plan. Ontario and BC have already said no. For some reason, I remember Alberta (although NDP) digging in their heels. I believe they said they can afford $25/day, but that's as far as their numbers could carry them....I just can't find the article, so running off memory. Now, of course, we don't know how much of Ontario and BC is political posturing. But, even still, we know the money isn't there. And I'm pretty sure the poorer provinces like PEI, Newfoundland, etc won't be able to foot the bill either. Even if it does come in, it's going to take time. But CICPO wants to have the Coop up and running either with or without UCC. It's our view that ICPs could benefit from a larger body supporting them, should they wish it. So far as the Coop going through...we can't say for sure at this point, but we did find out today that one of the larger agencies that was represented at the meeting, has approached some providers with a new model....a model very similar to one we developed months ago. Needless to say, we're thrilled that they've done a complete turnaround and embraced our idea as, clearly, it means it's viable. So, sit tight....we'll know more soon.

[cfred]

Can we take subsidized children, if we're licensed by Coop? That's a big issue since usually that's what prevents a parent from enrolling in a home daycare that's not under any agencies - they're qualified for subsidy.

As it stands, subsidies are handled by the municipalities, thereby adding another layer to the regulations and administration. It will be up to each Chapter to determine whether or not it will pursue subsidies. Though we haven't worked out all the details yet, this will, I would think, be determined by need in each area. We realize that some areas are heavy with clients requiring subsidies and some are not at all. Some towns and cities will need it, some won't.