Good Lord! I HATE AP!!

[ottawamommy]

I have had it and I am at my wits end with dcgb!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is AP (attachment parenting) and she is wild in every way imaginable!!

Please help

[Wonderwiper]

NEXT!!!

Seriously....I honestly couldn't deal with that! I have never terminated either but that kid would not have lasted that long here.

[babydom]

I have a list of NOT TAKES when it comes to interviewing.

1. Cop parents
2. Lawyer parents
3. CAS parents
4. AP parents

I do not even go there. I still to this day can't believe a parent would do this to a child!! How mean is it to set your little one up for failure when u know ur going back to work to parent that way then throw them in a group setting? So unfair to everyone involved...child and provider. Either stay home, don't do AP or only do it for 6mths then wean them or get a NANNY!

And for the record your a strong patience provider cuz there's no way I'd be doing a forth wk with another new child coming in.....lol. Good luck!!

[Lee-Bee]

Wouldn't giving the 4th week mean you no longer have the ability to terminate and keep the deposit?

[Lee-Bee]

I'll also use this chance to (once again) point out that AP gets a bad rap because a lot of parents today claim to be AP when really they are just lacking in the skills needed to be a parent and be in control. True AP parenting does not result in children that rule the house and control the parents every move...that is merely a family that has NOT set boundaries. AP is about setting those boundaries in a very gentle manner...AP is NOT about the lack of boundaries.

A TRUE AP child should not be sleep deprived and should not be eating only a select foods that they demand. That is a child that has be given complete control. This is something that pisses me off, don't use AP as an excuse not to parent and not to prepare children for the real world. Life is going to SUCK for these children when they grow up and learn that they aren't the rulers of the universe.

[Suzie_Homemaker]

I have had it and I am at my wits end with dcg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is AP (attachment parenting) and she is wild in every way imaginable. Even when she eats she deliberately looks at me (complete eye contact) SPITS her food out at me and makes a movement thing with her lips and smiles after I say no!!!!!!!WHENEVER food is involved!!

I have asked the parents to start getting her to sleep independently and I don't think they have because there has been no improvement with napping in the last 3 weeks. We have one good day and 4 shit days. It don't think it's my job to suffer and loosing 10 years of my life dealing with a wild child if they are at home rocking and carrying!!!

I asked today if she is sleeping independently and they told me they co sleep with her. Which I think is complete bull-shit they are still rocking her and I don't even know if this co sleeping thing is any good.

I have never in my career had to terminate a child and I feel really bad but my nerves are shot!

In my contract it states word for word "In the case that a child is not properly adjusting to daycare within a 3 week timeframe, the provider may terminate the contract and retain the full deposit"

I am giving them one more week (4 weeks in total) and I think that's fair. I have a new child starting next week too that I have transition as well so I don't think it's fair to the new child either.

Although agree if you had enough, you should term, be careful.

If your contract say you can term if not adjust in 3 weeks, and keep deposit, and you wait until week 4, it might be that you have give normal notice and apply deposit as would with long term person leaving.

[ottawamommy]

I shake when she comes here lol
I'm so tired!

[babydom]

My understanding is that co sleeping is apart of AP as they are always attached to the parent. Isn't AP also mean child led? So lee-bee doesn't AP parents give in and do what their child wants to keep them happy? That's how I understood it. Lol. Please clarify as I love to learn about parenting styles.

[Lee-Bee]

Co-sleeping is merely having your child(ren) sleep in your bed or in a bed beside your bed. It is very much AP BUT boundaries still need to be established for it to be functional for EVERY one involved. Meaning the child needs to learn that whether they want to or not they NEED to sleep. Yes, they can wake and seek comfort but that comfort should be something like a quick pat on the back or a 'shh' from the parent not hour long entertainment and rocking etc.

I had one AP family oh man. They were great people but man. The kid was up for 3-4hours in the night every night. Dad would rock her and he would sleep in the chair all night (the kid was over a year old) I remember mom texting me one morning saying they had a rough night but hey managed to get the child to sleep most the night, as long as the child was able to keep her finger in dad's belly button all night. WTF! that is complete and utter control of the child. How is that comfortable for the father. WHY is the child's comfort (aka finger in belly button) above the dads comfort (sleeping at all, and without a finger in his belly button).

Sometimes people you need to close the door and let the child cry themselves to sleep.
I say this as a parent that never left my child to cry it out. I taught her how to sleep and self sooth at an early age so we didn't have to either cry it out OR all be sleep deprived. This meant I didn't start sleep habits that SUCK when the child is older. Sure rock a 2month old to sleep but don't rock your 10month old to sleep because then you have to rock your 18month old to sleep. It takes time and effort and a whole lot of effort but as a parent you sign up for the responsibilities of raising a child. You don't have children so they can control your every move and keep you up for hours every night. Being a parent means saying NO (endlessly), being firm, being mean and being hated (at times) it is in the best interests of our children.

Again, I state this is NOT AP parenting. this is parenting without boundaries and the inability to take control!

I think your option of going home for naps is PERFECT. They created this mess they can deal with it.

[Lee-Bee]

My understanding is that co sleeping is apart of AP as they are always attached to the parent. Isn't AP also mean child led? So lee-bee doesn't AP parents give in and do what their child wants to keep them happy? That's how I understood it. Lol. Please clarify as I love to learn about parenting styles.

NO! That's just what we have turned it into.
It is about being in tune with our child. It is not about being physically attached to them 24/7 till they go to school and it is not about them controlling everything.

It is about holding them when they need comfort. It is being kind and gentle...sure you can avoid the word "no" but you don't let them do anything they want...you redirect and guide them to what you want them to do without being harsh etc. It does not mean they can do anything they want.

AP still has discipline but it is about being preventative instead of reactive. It is about taking the time to use the situation as a learning opportunity but you STILL DISCIPLINE.

Most of all, AP still means the mom (and dad) take time to care for themselves and meet their own needs). AP is not about putting the child first and neglecting everyone else. That just leads to a complete breakdown of the family.

Like I say AP has a bad rap because we have turned it into something that is detrimental to the child and family.

[Artsand crafts]

If you are giving them one more week, I think you should protect yourself and put it in writing, pointing out the conditions and that they will forfeit the deposit if it does not work, if you are not re-funding.

I have had many AP kids under my care. I wish I could be more picky, but I would not have children to care for if were that choosy, my hours are the shortest, and most people here pick licensed care or nannies and when they run out of options they go to unlicensed daycare.

If you decide to keep her, my advice is to be firm with her and have the same expectations of her as the other children. Kids learnt to differentiate between environments and also learnt when and who to behave well with. I also would not pay any attention to her while she is eating, I would just serve her food and only look at her when she thinks no one is looking. Our job is to provide healthy food, theirs is to decide whether to eat it or not. It is impossible to force someone to eat, so you will loose there every time.

I currently have 2 kids (out of 3) that are AP at some degree. One of them is a 3yo dcg that has been with me since she was 1 yo. She is now awesome! I really going to miss her next year when she has to go to JK. She used to sleep with mom, she was held ALL THE TIME, and cried when mom left the room even in her house. She is the youngest of 3 older brothers and parents are of mature age, so she is the princess of the house, but she has learnt different here. She comes everyday happy and with good attitude.

[Suzie_Homemaker]

She mentioned some shhhing method where you lay the child down 60 times in an hour or something and sush them? No one has time for that.

I would ask her who she think supervising other children when you sushing their child and if, when their child older and maybe not napping, would they be okay with their child not supervised while you co napping or sushing younger child. I bet they not be okay if their child unsupervise when you doing this for someone else.

[Lee-Bee]

Quote Originally Posted by ottawamommy View Post

She mentioned some shhhing method where you lay the child down 60 times in an hour or something and sush them? No one has time for that.
------------------------------

This is what should be done when the child is an older infant, long before they start daycare. It cannot be expected of the daycare provider. It is a gentle way to teach them to eventually sleep on their own. But, it needs to be done early and consistently at home.

[ottawamommy]

As I parent I would never ever sleep with my child I think it's dangerous and sure people say "oh that's why they recommend blah blah" but bottom like I can pretty much squish my kid so that a go go.

[ottawamommy]

Quote Originally Posted by ottawamommy View Post

She mentioned some shhhing method where you lay the child down 60 times in an hour or something and sush them? No one has time for that.
------------------------------

This is what should be done when the child is an older infant, long before they start daycare. It cannot be expected of the daycare provider. It is a gentle way to teach them to eventually sleep on their own. But, it needs to be done early and consistently at home.

yup see not my job that would be something they should have been doing at 6 months

[ottawamommy]

I would ask her who she think supervising other children when you sushing their child and if, when their child older and maybe not napping, would they be okay with their child not supervised while you co napping or sushing younger child. I bet they not be okay if their child unsupervise when you doing this for someone else.

your answers always make me laugh! in a good way lol so blunt

[Lee-Bee]

As I parent I would never ever sleep with my child I think it's dangerous and sure people say "oh that's why they recommend blah blah" but bottom like I can pretty much squish my kid so that a go go.

It's hard to discipline being preventative instead reactive when kids test boundaries all the time and ESPECIALLY when they know they can get away with it. You need to discipline lovingly but some think time outs are harsh and some this a good old spanking works the best. If AP is so amazing how is everyone parent butchering it and when you mention it to parents who don't they think its the craziest idea. The way I see it there is no need for a child to sleep with a parents cribs/playpens were invented for a reason.

Either way all I know is unless a napping routine is established no way no how anyone is coming here even if that means I have 1 kid.

I think it has been butchered over time the same reason we have begun raising children to think they are the super best-est at everything they do even when (if not especially when) they SUCK at it lol. We've gone so far into this movement of children first that we are, in my strong opinion, setting them up to fail miserably when they are adults. No, you don't deserve a sticker when you get 1 out of 10 on your spelling test. No, you don't get to win every game you play to prevent you from crying and feeling bad about yourself. Yes we should celebrate children's strengths and make them feel good about themselves but they need to know they suck at other things and that if they don't try they won't ever improve. Children need to know that they upset, disappoint and hurt others other wise we are just raising about of uncaring narcissistic terrors that will someday rule our world (Lord help us).

I'm only 33 but I can't help but wonder how far society is going to stoop (and suck) before we start to swing back to a reasonable place! Where we raise children with expectations and boundaries.

[superfun]

I'm only 33 but I can't help but wonder how far society is going to stoop (and suck) before we start to swing back to a reasonable place! Where we raise children with expectations and boundaries.

This is my thoughts exactly!

[ottawamommy]

I think it has been butchered over time the same reason we have begun raising children to think they are the super best-est at everything they do even when (if not especially when) they SUCK at it lol. We've gone so far into this movement of children first that we are, in my strong opinion, setting them up to fail miserably when they are adults. No, you don't deserve a sticker when you get 1 out of 10 on your spelling test. No, you don't get to win every game you play to prevent you from crying and feeling bad about yourself. Yes we should celebrate children's strengths and make them feel good about themselves but they need to know they suck at other things and that if they don't try they won't ever improve. Children need to know that they upset, disappoint and hurt others other wise we are just raising about of uncaring narcissistic terrors that will someday rule our world (Lord help us).

I'm only 33 but I can't help but wonder how far society is going to stoop (and suck) before we start to swing back to a reasonable place! Where we raise children with expectations and boundaries.

Lol!! So true and what worries me that most is that's the generation that will be taking caring of me at the nursing home :ohmy::laugh::(:no:: crying: (in this order exactly)

[33 Daiseys]

I'm 34 and i hear you. Daycare bear need to have a like button option.

[ottawamommy]

dkdkdsvksdnkvnks

[Lee-Bee]

I personally need to think you need to terminate today, before the 3 weeks is up.

This family is NOT a good match for your home daycare (or pretty much any other). By going beyond the 3 weeks you forgo your right to keep the deposit. It doesn't matter what the parent verbally agrees t...if you terminate this family after 3 weeks you WILL LOSE your deposit because I can almost guarantee that they will take it as a personal insult and they will seek to make this hard on you. You both signed to the 3 weeks if you go past that they will be able to seek legal action against you.

They are clearly not comfortable with letting their child cry it out. They will not change anytime soon. Good on them to seek sleep therapy. we can only hope that who ever they hire has the knowledge and common sense to get the parents to help train the child to sleep on their own (and not some wonky person that just further solidifies their belief in letting the child sleep poorly to forgo any tears).

But at the end of the day this is not going to be a quick and easy process. it will take months and months of everyone slowly changing. You will NOT see progress on your end anytime soon.

[mamaof4]

It sounds like this is not a good fit.

I have 5 of my own children and I am very AP- but a huge tenet of AP is getting across that ALL people's needs are important. And I agree- AP would be harder to implement in a Dayhome than in a parent/child diad.

There are studies that do show issues with CIO particularly with breastfeeding- I know that cry it out has been done for years but there is substantial evidence that shows it to be harmful particularly for younger babies. IMO, it is the same as saying we didn't have car seats and did just fine--- well some of us didn't.... (with a much higher learning curve)

The child will eventually learn to differentiate environments but that will take time- and it sounds like you are at your wits end.

[ottawamommy]

This is why I get confused there are studies that cry it out is harmful and studies that so AP is harmful so I don't even know lol

[Crayola kiddies]

if today is the end of week 3 then i think today is the last day of care for this child at your daycare because leebee is right if you go over the 3 weeks you give back the deposit ...btw sleep training is a gradual process and things dont change over night and its a long routine heading up to sleep time ...time i just wouldnt have in my daycare trying to get all the kids down for nap

[ottawamommy]

That is pretty much what I did just now. I just caught them in another lie that was causing the child not to sleep. I asked them not to nurse before nap/bed time start taking a bottle that way I can give her a bottle her. They were telling me that they did do this but a pick up told me they were going to the other moms work to the baby can nurse before nap time. Apparently in the sleep therapy work shop they need me to go and want them to come into my daycare after hours to se my set up so they can see if that is the problem. Also because I am ECE I don't have enough experience with babies lol and a 3 week transition program is to short. Overall they said we don't have to let her cry it out there are other options we don't need to change the child just the set up. Oh and apparently according to them it's normal for providers to wear the baby until they transition?! oh lord

[Lee-Bee]

How old is the child? The thing with sleep is the earlier you set the pattern of routine the easier. The older the child is before you set sleep expectations the harder it gets because they are so used to routine. Children like routine, they thrive in routine. Sudden changes to their key routine causes upset. For parents like this that can't stand to see their child upset they can so easily get stuck in the this cycle of trying to make change but giving up as soon as the child protests...which can quickly teach the child that they just have to protest change to stop it. And then, yes, a sleep therapist is needed. Not just for the child but for the parents to have someone to own up to in order to make the change happen.

Children do adapt quickly, but they need consistent practice in order to adapt. If the parents waiver then it stalls the progress.

no cry-it-out is not necessary to get even the poorest of sleepers to sleep. But consistency, patience and lots of time and energy is needed as is a parent(s) that is driven to make the change happen. Because without the parents wanting that change then the consistency, time, energy and desire is not there to get them through it. We are daycare providers really cannot expect parents to change their ways to suit us. We need to tell them what is needed or allow them to move elsewhere (or make them move elsewhere).

No matter how much we disagree with their ways we have no say/control/input into what they do. If they are open to changing to make things easier for their child then awesome if they are not open to this then they are not a suitable family for us.

We as care providers really have limited options in cases like this. We can terminate and or we can do what we can on our end to get the child settled. I do not believe it is our say to tell them to stop nursing to sleep. I frankly do not agree that it is best for the child. Maybe if they did it months ago before daycare was in view but right now the child needs things at home to be safe and comfortable. They come to us and adapt to our way of doing things then they get to retreat back home to the familiar comfort they have always known.

It may drive us nuts and annoy us endlessly but home is home and daycare is daycare and all we can do is hope the child adapts.

I have had numerous 'AP' families come through here. All of them drove me bonkers, all of them had incredibly poor sleep habits and completely sleep deprived children, all of them called all the shots and with so much as a whimper would change the full days plans. I do not agree with it I do not think it is best for the children or the families but it isn't my place to change that.

All of the AP children adapted quickly with a bit of effort on my part. No things here were not the same as home but they were all happy, well adjusted, well rested children while in my care.

I have my ECE and a degree in psychology I know and have studied the benefits of Attachment and attachment parenting. I fully support it...but I do not support sleep deprived children or children that have too much control in things they should have no control over. Sleep is so crucial for child and brain development.

This family needs a different daycare. They would benefit from a nanny but they need their child in a place that can accept it for what it is.

[crayolamom]

When you say consistency, patience and lots of time and energy is needed as is a parent(s) that is driven to make the change happen are you referring to the provider or the parents because those milestones should have been set long before they needed care?

[crayolamom]

How is nursing before nap time going to help child adapt to sleep at daycare?

[Lee-Bee]

When you say consistency, patience and lots of time and energy is needed as is a parent(s) that is driven to make the change happen are you referring to the provider or the parents because those milestones should have been set long before they needed care?

It was more of a general statement. This conversation kind of gives the tone that cry-it-out is the only way this child (and others) in this case can learn to sleep well on their own. I am noting that it isn't the case...cry-it-out would possibly be the fastest here but ultimately these parents CAN get their child to learn to sleep in an AP friendly way if they choose to.

YES the child should have been taught how to sleep long ago. NO it should not have been left to the daycare provider to do. I have found though, that with these families this is often the case and the daycare provider is left to get the child to sleep. Often not in a manner that the parents would choose.

Doesn't matter the parenting style...it is the parents job to ensure the child has good sleep patterns in place before they plop the child in group care. It is not fair to anyone when a child arrives with absolutely no ability to self sooth and to sleep on their own.

This is where I can't help but feel that true AP parenting would differ from what we currently see referred to as 'AP'. If you are truly AP then you would be thinking ahead and setting the child up to succeed when they transfer to daycare. You would be doing all you could to ease that transition.

[Lee-Bee]

How is nursing before nap time going to help child adapt to sleep at daycare?

The child SHOULD have the skills required to nap differently in different places. When this is the case nursing before sleep in one location should have NO impact on their sleep elsewhere. They should have the skills needed to self sooth and sleep while still being able to rely on parents at home. Nursing on demand at home is perfectly fine if the child has been given the skills needed function elsewhere.

AP parenting does not need to be all or nothing. If they planned ahead and provided the child with the skills needed then they would be able to nurse non-stop at home, co-sleep and all that great bonding stuff without an impact on daycare. This is, again, where I feel AP has taken a wrong turn. AP parenting is supposed to be about raising emotionally attached, self confident happy, and ultimately independent children. It is not about raising demanding, incompetent 'terrors'...which is often how things seem to be going these days.

[flowerchild]

Honestly, it doesn't seem like this family is a good fit and that you are ever going to see eye to eye. If this is within your three week trial and you plan to term anyways, I'd just do it now. Things are not going to improve to the extent that you expect within another week.

If not, I think you need to take the weekend and figure out exactly what and how much you are willing to do to aid in this child's sleep learning. Once you've figured it out, you should put it in writing, review it with the parents, and have both of you sign two copies (one for you and one for them).

ie. you are not willing to wear the child for the entire nap time, but you are willing to rub his or her back for five minutes while they lay in the play pen. You are willing to move the child's playpen to a separate, dark room away from others or you are willing to run white noise or play lullabies but you aren't willing to sit in the room beside the playpen for the entire time. Those are just examples, but does that make sense?

Lee-Bee and mamaof4 - I agree with pretty much everything you said about AP. I think I mentioned in either this thread or another similar one that I use some of the AP principles in my parenting, but I find one of the biggest misunderstanding or misinterpretation of AP is that a parent must sacrifice everything and the child's happiness is paramount over others. I have also seen parents who identify or strive to be AP who are afraid to set up boundaries for their child or to discipline at all. Almost like they don't realize that discipline doesn't just mean spanking and yelling if that makes sense.

[Mama2boys]

Speaking as a parent that leans more towards the AP side of things, it was foremost on my mind that my boys are able to adjust and function (including nap!) away from me. We started prepping 3 months before my return to work date (both times). They were left with others for increasing amounts of time, and able to nap with them. They both nursed on demand at home and co-slept (and slept in their own beds when they felt like it). They had no issues adjusting to napping at daycare on their own and putting themselves down. I also transitioned them to homogonized milk during the day in advance of sending them. I agree that AP is getting a bad rep just for reasons like this, but I also totally agree it is the parent's fault in this case. If you know you are not hiring a nanny for 1 on 1, you need to prep your child for group care. I've always asked myself the types of questions Suzie_Homemaker has asked (what is happening with the other kids if I expect a certain something with mine), and want to extend the courtesy to others. The whole point of this post I guess is just not to make assumptions of parents that do tend to lean towards more AP tenancies...some of us do have our stuff together and understand the struggle.

[Van]

it really helps when a parent prepares the child to adjust and have their stuff together so good for you for doing that. It helps your child and the caregiver but some parents are not prepared and then it is hard on everyone to just dive in the deep end and hope for the best and not think ahead , it sounds like a nanny may be the best solution in this situation

[Suzie_Homemaker]

I have list of "Preparing Child for Day Care". It go out to parent who advance contract or with contract for those start sooner. It help focus parent mind to this be group care not one-on-one. If child starting soon, this something I go through with parent when go through contract.

I found it help. Not just for parent to consider the real of the request but also for me to determine which parent is realistic and which is only thinking about their child and their child current need.

It not just AP parent that sometime ill prepare for daycare. Lady came recently whose baby breast fed, wanting care start in a week, and not even begun think about starting sippy cup or even bottle. She intend bring child and leaving me deal with because she say they try once month before and too hard so just didn't do again. Other issue with her too but this big reason for me turn away even though place still empty. Owe to children and parent already here to be realist about what wiling to take on.

[ottawamommy]

I think there is a reason MANY of us do not take AP children. Crying it out is a quick fix and if we have a 3 week transition period and there has been no progress done on the end of the parents then there really isn't another options.

Their suggestion was carrying the baby for 20 mins before nap and told me word for word "the sleeping therapist wants you to remember its not forever just temp"! I find this very offensive due to the fact that I already said I will not wear your child, I will not rock your child and at 12 months I expect your child to take their own bottle as I am not holding a bottle.

[Crayola kiddies]

So terminate

[Lee-Bee]

I am pretty sure my DCG's parents also thought "it won't last forever" when they decided to daily take their daughter for a drive for nap because they couldn't get her to sleep at home. Here we are 2.5 yrs later and guess who still takes their turning 3 in a month year old daughter for a daily drive for nap time (dad confirmed this last week).

These things don't last forever but they do require adults to nudge them in the right direction or they do last many, many, many years longer than needed!!

Anyways. You are clearly at a standstill and clearly this isn't a good fit for either you or the family. Send them on their way and find a family that will be a good fit for you so you can enjoy your days.

[flowerchild]

What's a shame is that they are wasting their sessions with the sleep therapist trying to force their agenda instead of taking that time and having the therapist develop a plan for daycare based on what you are able to provide.

It really doesn't seem like a good fit and it seems like heels have dug in on both sides now. If your plan is to eventually terminate, I would do it now. Save them, you and the baby the stress. If you are committed to seeing this through, I would again suggest that you put everything that you are willing to do in writing so that both sides are clear. If they want you to speak to their sleep therapist, do it. It will give you an opportunity to explain the boundaries for nap time at your house and give the therapist a clearer idea of what he/she is working with.

[ottawamommy]

I already terminated ? The spot will be filled by Wednesday as I have 2 families on a wait list for the spot and I am still trying to pick the best fit.

I wasn't ever stressed. If the child isn't sleeping and there hasn't been improvements phone call pick up and goodbye.

I asked them on Friday what napping/sleeping routine they set up for the child three weeks into daycare and they told me they didn't have one so buh-bye.

[ottawamommy]

What's a shame is that they are wasting their sessions with the sleep therapist trying to force their agenda instead of taking that time and having the therapist develop a plan for daycare based on what you are able to provide.

It really doesn't seem like a good fit and it seems like heels have dug in on both sides now. If your plan is to eventually terminate, I would do it now. Save them, you and the baby the stress. If you are committed to seeing this through, I would again suggest that you put everything that you are willing to do in writing so that both sides are clear. If they want you to speak to their sleep therapist, do it. It will give you an opportunity to explain the boundaries for nap time at your house and give the therapist a clearer idea of what he/she is working with.

I did this and I told her what I was able to accommodate and what I wasn't. Her solution when she came for pick up was to wear the baby for 20 mins ? Yeah no not happing so you can just tell by this point nothing is going change.

There are so many people out there looking for infant spots who are willing to listen and work together to help the child and they didn't care so I terminated