Threatened by parents!!!!

[crayolamom]

I have a contract that states I require a 2 week deposit and if a child does not properly transition within 3 weeks of start date, provider may terminate contract and retain full 2 week deposit. When parents signed this, it was not a problem. They never had a question about it and everything was ok.

Apparently now they have a difficult time with this section of my contract as soon as I decided to terminate child after 3 weeks for not transitioning properly ( and by this I mean screaming from 8-5 for 3 weeks as it was attachment parenting child ) and decided to file a formal complaint with Ministry of Consumer Services.

I decided to give ministry of consumer services a call and they pretty much stated for me to go look online...
She did mention that even though I have a contract for a private home daycare, it is still considered services/business that does not comply with Ontario laws as businesses in Ontario are required to return all monies/deposits oweing once a service has been rendered.

So even if families don't give a proper notice we must return deposit as that is Ontario law for businesses???

So my question is - does anyone know anything about this? I understand this applies to businesses such as retailers but private care?? and if this is true, what's the point of even having a contract then? why not just have a contract full of Ontario laws in it?

It just seems to me like the government is supporting us less and less and hoping that we all shut down :(

[Lee-Bee]

So, I'll start by stating I have no clue what so ever.

BUT...I would caution you to first take a moment to decide how much time, energy, and effort you want to invest in this. Is the 2 week deposit worth the stress and energy it will take to figure it all out. If not then it might be easiest and best for you to just return the money and wipe yourself completely clean of them. They are clearly taking this very personally and this isn't about them getting their money back so much as they feel you have rejected their child and they want to make themselves feel better by winning this.

If you truly feel you want this deposit (and I agree that they agreed to it, and you invested your time and energy into this family) BUT sometimes the gain just isn't enough to counter what this could become.

I think you lose either way here. You fight to the end to keep the money or you return the money and let them "win" so in the end you might come out best by taking the approach that means less stress and frustration on your part (as much as I admit it would kill me to return it to them)!

I feel for you...but on the bright side terminating care means you won't have to put up with them long term!

[Lee-Bee]

If you do decide to keep the deposit and likely go through the small claims court route (on their end) it might be best to sit down now and document what efforts you put in during the 3 weeks to help the child adapt and also list what requests you made of the family to help the child adapt. Then if you do end up in court you can present your case this is what I did, this is what was needed on the home end but they did not attempt to help the child adjust. Therefore, after 3 weeks of effort you were left with a space unfilled and no income from the space because the family did not do their part.

Anyways, documenting it now will help later.

[Lee-Bee]

I do wonder about that though. Even people working for these higher ups have no clue when they speak of the rules. So, there is a chance that your contract would hold in the court and they were in correct. I kind of suspect it would based on hearing others on here that have been through small claims before. But, it is a risk to take to find out.

Either way it sucks. Because the parents "win" if they get their money back. BUT, sometimes 'losing' is in our best interest.

The good thing is they will go on their way and you come out of this with that experience that will help you choose your families a little more selectively to help prevent this from happening again!

If you do decide to do a fast end to this and return their deposit I would spend a bit of time first figuring out what to say when you do. Just a reminder to them that it is rightfully yours, they broke their word by signing a contract then copping out of it etc, obviously be more politically correct in your wording lol.

[Artsand crafts]

Hugs! I hope everything goes as well as possible on your end. If I were you I would go to the end of it and even try to get legal help, but that is just me, and I know how stressful this kind of situation can be.

There is a contract in place. If you decide to drop your cell plan they charge you for it. If you decide to switch your mortgage to another lender, the original lender will penalize you for it.

Maybe the problem is with the wording in your contract. I read somewhere before that if you call it "deposit" you could have situations like this, that is the reason I now call it "Enrollment fee"

[crayolamom]

Thank you so much for your support and advice.
Apparently according to one of the representatives they said you can't legally retain money for a service regardless of the type of business, if you terminate the contract. So this means technically if DCM punches me in the face and I terminate care I have to return deposit?

But then the consumer automated telephone line said "Ontario does not regulate refunds or deposits" so I am so confused. I contacted a lawyer who told me to contact him when I get sued because he doesn't know what can happen, but I am trying to prevent being sued over $400...

It also doesn't make sense to me because I gave the family other alternatives if they wanted to stay with me but it didn't work for them so they left. I asked them in a text message that I still have "let me know your decision" they replied with "as you now have said twice it is "best" if sally does not return, we will go along with your recommendation and we will consider the contract terminated by you, the provider, based on the fact that the child is not properly adjusting to daycare which entitles you to retain the full deposit as per your contract".

So while they agree with my contract, they are pretty much stating that this situation still falls under Ontario law and this is the reason why she is asking for a refund.

There must be a way around this??

[playfelt]

What is the timeline allowed for return of the money? In that sense can it be kept until such time as the space is refilled. I know it is likely different since you are the one terminating. I also understand where the family is coming from as they will have to replay the same deposit to someone else that they may feel that you are making up stories about their sweet never cries at home cause of the AP child just to make extra money and that is why they are making a fuss to get it back. Reputation is likely not worth keeping it but doesn't mean it is owed back the day they leave either - at minimum it is at the end of the month or quarter or whatever the bookkeeping services allow for.

Assuming you have to give proper notice too then the money would go towards the last two weeks of care. If they decide not to bring the child back for those two weeks then they forfeit the money so you may need to tough it out for two more weeks - which means just returning the money might be easier on your sanity.

[crayolamom]

On my contract there is no time line. It just simply states that if a child doesn't adjust then the provider retains the full deposit. They knew this so I gave them other options because I felt bad doing just terminating. I asked them what they wanted to do and they said "you now have said twice it is "best" if sally does not return, we will go along with your recommendation and we will consider the contract terminated by you". Prior to this I gave an alternative and they didn't want it my offer which is why they then proceeded to tell me "you now have...." . So it's not like I just terminated on the spot and kept their money.

If we get all technical here then they technically terminated their own contract without giving me a proper 4 week notice therefor allowing me to keep the deposit.

It's not about the money I don't care about that, if this is legally wrong I will give it back I am not stressing myself out over 400 bucks. I think this is happening because they had a friend who was suppose to come to for care as well. I terminated that contract before they started because they failed to show me proof of vaccinations for their children and in my daycare I do not allow children who are not vaccinated. Even though they technically broke my rules I gave them their money back and sent them on there way with the hopes that they will be more truthful with their next provider (they are that family who doesn't believe in vaccination and I found this out later on). So I think they told the other family they got they money back and now they are trying to do the same.

[crayolamom]

If I was a judge or any kind of government worker my first question would be a) if you are so concerned about the provider retaining your deposit why didn't you do your research prior to signing the contract and b) if you don't agree with it why are you signing it?

So I just don't see how this would hold up in court! My lawyer told me it wouldn't another told me to call him back once I get sued if I get sued!

[dodge__driver11]

Honestly,

I have terminated a family on the spot before, and to prevent this from happening (I knew they were the type to make a huge deal about nothing, and fight tooth and nail) I termed the child on the spot, took my monthly rate divided it, by the number of days remaining in the month, and gave them a refund, and made them sign saying they got it.

I also had their rec. all the child's belongings and everything ready to go at pick up so they would have no excuse to return to my home at all.

I have also had the reverse happen to me where a parent decided that I was no longer a good fit, and termed with no notice, right at the end of the month. I was technically owed a month according to my contract, but rather than fight, and they turned into total nut balls too, I just took their notice, and bid them adieu. I also mailed them their daycare receipt registered mail, and washed my hands of them.

Sometimes, even though we have legally binding agreements in order to avoid slander, liable, and unwelcome guests we have to do the next best thing.

[crayolamom]

Honestly,

I have terminated a family on the spot before, and to prevent this from happening (I knew they were the type to make a huge deal about nothing, and fight tooth and nail) I termed the child on the spot, took my monthly rate divided it, by the number of days remaining in the month, and gave them a refund, and made them sign saying they got it.

I also had their rec. all the child's belongings and everything ready to go at pick up so they would have no excuse to return to my home at all.

I have also had the reverse happen to me where a parent decided that I was no longer a good fit, and termed with no notice, right at the end of the month. I was technically owed a month according to my contract, but rather than fight, and they turned into total nut balls too, I just took their notice, and bid them adieu. I also mailed them their daycare receipt registered mail, and washed my hands of them.

Sometimes, even though we have legally binding agreements in order to avoid slander, liable, and unwelcome guests we have to do the next best thing.

They are exactly like that! But now they have even more requests ex. I must contact through email no texts or phone calls and the money must be mailed to them in cash to a registered check. I am not stupid enough to give out any kind of money without getting a signature from then or prove that I got it! Do you all agree with this?

They even went as far as putting a tracking number on the letter lol I literally had to sign more it to take it from the mail man

[dodge__driver11]

No, you take the power away from them right this very second. Write them a registered letter stating the terms under which you are willing to give a refund, if any. You do not contact them under any other terms, and do not answer or speak to anything else. Case closed.

If it were me, I would just refund them the remaining days under the contract send a certified cheque, and write "FINAL payment" in the memo line...If they accept his, they have accepted the terms under which you are making an exception to your service agreement. And if sued, I would present this to the judge. More than likely they will be tossed out on their ear.

[crayolamom]

what do you mean by days remaining? they signed on for full-time care and were only here for 3 weeks and after those 3 weeks they left for not transitioning properly
So they paid deposit $400 june 13, 2015. they started care September 28 2015. contract terminated October 16, 2015

my rate is 200/week

[Lee-Bee]

Text them (not email as per their demand) and let them know you will be in contact as to you course of action within 2 weeks after you have looked into the small claims court procedures.

[dodge__driver11]

Here I charge by the month? Have they paid for four weeks of service?

What are their demands exactly?

At most I would refund 50%

ETA I would not email either.

Sorry just re read your post, is all they want he deposit...?

Crying baby who refuses to sleep is making it hard to concentrate.

[Lee-Bee]

Then after every attempt of contact resend that exact same text. They seem like they are trying to use scare tactics this will aggravate them as they are not getting the reaction they want. Wait 2 weeks and if they still seem to want the money send it to them through registered mail.

Though, I suppose they have to start the small claims action not you. This could piss them off and they may try. I do find it hard to believe they would win...but again I wouldn't want to put the time and effort in to seeing if that is true. But I hate when they start putting these demands and scare tactics in place...it is my weakness to dig my heels in and fight back when people start acting like this.

[Lee-Bee]

I will note...giving them 50% implies you agree that they should get their money back and if they did then take you to small claims court it would likely screw you. It's an all or nothing game once they start acting this way.

[dodge__driver11]

I agree Lee-Bee, I do, but I would note in my letter that this is a gesture of goodwill and does not negate contractual responsibility.

[crayolamom]

Lol I am laughing so hard Lee-Bee!! I know exactly what you mean I can't stand them for the life of me and that's the ONLY reason I don't want to give it back.

Dodge-Drive they paid for a two weeks deposit so in total they paid $400 in deposits and then paid for 3 weeks of car starting September 28th ending October 16th. What should I return.

It's not small claims court I am worried about it's the Ministry of Consumer Services I don't want shopping up to my house!

Say what I did in my contract was wrong they can here and fine me up to $250 000 and you can go to jail for 2 years!

[babydom]

Just out of curiosity....how long after they leave can they sue u or take you to small claims court? So say this family is gone but nothing happens just what they are doing....scare tactics. But then a yr later then sue or go to small claims....can they a yr later? Or do they have a window inorder to act? I'm asking because I had a similar stituation happen but I stood my ground and did not give the money back. Nothing was said or done after that. But after reading this....now has me scared. Can the parents still do something a yr later?

To the OP......good luck with everything I know what ur going through. Parents can be scary. Sometimes it's worth it to stand up for urself other times u just got to give in to get them out of your life.

[crayolamom]

I am not to sure I even called a lawyer and they don't know how much of this is valid I don't really know. This same family wanted a receipt from me and I told them my accountant does them in Feb and they knew this already and told me this I didn't give them a recipt they would call the ministry of consumer services!

I gave them a receipt and now they are doing this because APPERENTLY the clause in my contract "In the case that a child is not properly adjusting to daycare within a 3 week timeframe, the provider may terminate the contract and retain the full deposit" is not accordance with the consumer protection act and that they were advised that its unethical for a service provider to terminate their services and retain payments for services not rendered. This is why I am confused! When I called the Ministry of Consumer Services they said there is no rules for deposit or refunds but she worded it as PAYMENTS it wasn't a payment I am not giving back it is the deposit.

She already threatened me with the ministry of consumer services over a receipt because she needed it now?

[sandylynn]

Unless one wants to go to small claims for a few bucks....really...wh at Does the contract really mean....in some cases....a HEADACHE...Personall y....I just move on...when I am done with (and I do mean DONE)....with families such as this....I don't want ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM OR SEE THEM AGAIN...LET ALONE DRAG THEM THROUGH SMALL CLAIMS FOR A COUPLE HUNDRED BUCKS...