Ratio Requirements

[bluebirdfollower]

I had a question regarding ratios and I found a hard time finding anything online. I know a private home daycare can only have 5 children (2 under 2), an individual affiliated with an agency can have 6 (2 under 2), if you are private no matter how many care givers are there you can only have 5 children but if you are licensed and the other provider is licensed you can have 12 altogether (4 under 2)? Is this correct and if not please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

[BlueRose]

As of the moment the law in Ontario is:

Private care: 5 daycare children, with only 2 under 2 years

Licensed Care: 5 to 6 daycare children with only 2 under 2 years.

the two daycare provider model is not in affect yet and we are still waiting to find out if its, for play dates or an every day thing.

For both private and licensed providers: the providers children under 6yrs count in their numbers.
If their child is 4 or 5 yrs old and is enrolled in a government funded full day school program, and the provider only has 1 child under the age of 2 yrs them the providers child will only count during the summer months (July/Aug), but not count in the providers numbers during the school year.

for a summary of the bill please go to www.homedaycarebusin ess.weebly.com (http://www.homedaycarebusin ess.weebly.com)

[bluebirdfollower]

BlueRose, thank you so much for the information. I was under the impression that it was already in effect. If there are providers out there who get inspected by the ministry and truly don't know about the 2 under 2 rule what will the ministry do? Do they give out warnings or not. I'm just curious because I know of provider who had no idea about the 2 under 2 rules.

Also, how do we prove date of birth? How will the ministry know if a child is 22 months vs 24 months?

[babydom]

They give out a warning first. Then return in two wks to see if you fixed the problem. They can contact the parents and ask for proof of the date of birth.

U can only have 5 daycare kids at one time per residence doesn't matter how many adults are present. Only two can be under age two.

[BlueRose]

BlueRose, thank you so much for the information. I was under the impression that it was already in effect. If there are providers out there who get inspected by the ministry and truly don't know about the 2 under 2 rule what will the ministry do? Do they give out warnings or not. I'm just curious because I know of provider who had no idea about the 2 under 2 rules.

Also, how do we prove date of birth? How will the ministry know if a child is 22 months vs 24 months?

Your welcome.

I have heard that they give a warning first. But that doesn't mean that they will. If you know of providers who don't know about the new laws please tell them about them. It is the providers responsibility to always be doing research on their business and making sure there are no changes in any of the laws.

I require a copy of the child's birth certificate at the time of the contract signing. The ministry has the right to contact all your clients. The can look at your contract etc. They have ways of finding out ages, so its best to make sure you can back up the child's age, as the fine is very large.

[Van]

I believe the fine in Ontario for being over 5 children is $250,000 correct me if I am wrong

[Van]

In BC the daycare inspectors don't give any warning , so it is up to us to know how many children are attending the daycare and not go over ratio or they can close your daycare

[bluebirdfollower]

I know that ratio is 1:5 but I read online a few months back (can't seem to find this info anymore) that if 2 licensed provider in Ontario work together they can have 12 children together.

I know the fine is hefty for being over ratios but I am curious as to what the ministry does for the 2 under 2 if someone doesn't know about it. A LOT of providers in my are had no clue so I am wondering when they catch them what will happen. Lol

[Van]

Personally I would NOT like to be the one to find out lol

[cfred]

I know that ratio is 1:5 but I read online a few months back (can't seem to find this info anymore) that if 2 licensed provider in Ontario work together they can have 12 children together.

I know the fine is hefty for being over ratios but I am curious as to what the ministry does for the 2 under 2 if someone doesn't know about it. A LOT of providers in my are had no clue so I am wondering when they catch them what will happen. Lol

The 2 provider model with 6 children each is solely at the discretion of the agency and the space being provided for the children. There are space and facility requirements as outlined by the CCEYA. Some agencies will go along, but others will not. The new regulations will be posted soon, so you can read up on them yourself.

So far as claiming to 'not know about' the 2 under 2 rule, I'm afraid that won't stand up and I doubt it will be met with much sympathy from the Ministry. This is your profession, and as such, it is expected by everyone that providers are up to date with the current regulations. Pleading ignorance, will not work. A provider working outside the legal parameters will face consequences, regardless of her knowledge or understanding of the law. If you have questions, you can visit the CICPO facebook page. Any number of team leads across the province will assist you with your queries. https://www.facebook.com/groups/CICPO/

[Lee-Bee]

I know that ratio is 1:5 but I read online a few months back (can't seem to find this info anymore) that if 2 licensed provider in Ontario work together they can have 12 children together.

I know the fine is hefty for being over ratios but I am curious as to what the ministry does for the 2 under 2 if someone doesn't know about it. A LOT of providers in my are had no clue so I am wondering when they catch them what will happen. Lol

Ignorance isn't an excuse and doesn't equal a free pass. This is their chosen career, they are responsible for being up to date with all laws and rules. Sticking their heads in the sand and keeping status quo is unprofessional. I also find it quite unlikley that someone providing home daycare in Ontario can truly have no clue what so ever. Surely they have heard something about it in the news, at the park, from one of their daycare families. All it takes is for one person to have mention bill 10 or anything similar ONCE for them to be informed (they are no longer completely unaware), at that point it is up to them to research it in it's entirety.

Any daycare being caught over the limits will face the penalties of working outside the law. I would expect there is a slight variation in how it is dealt with on first charge. As much as it is supposed to be an unbiased, rule based system it would likely depend in the person showing up at the door on any given day. If they are in a good mood and see a really well run program and they feel the caregiver is in fact completely ignorant of the law then perhaps they will get off with a warning, but odds are they will be charged, because the people writing the tickets do this every day and one would expect they are fed up with every caregiver trying to claim ignorance.

My understanding is that the government wants this to be taken seriously and they are not looking to give free passes. Especially when they have $250,000 to collect for someones ignorance.

[bluebirdfollower]

I wouldn't necessarily say that "ignorance" is the right word to use in these types of situations. This is a childcare law that hasn't been changed in 20-30 years. I get that there are people who abuse the system, it happens in every profession but there are some people who truly do not know. If they want more providers to follow the rules they need to come up with more resources for HDP.

A lot of people who do this job view it as "babysitting" and I myself have tried to explain to other providers the rules and I get a "it's just babysitting that can't be right" attitude.

I live in the Kingston area so I don't know what the norm is everywhere else but there have been a few providers who have been caught with more than 5 children, and they got off with a warning.

As for the $250,000 fine, well good luck to them on that one because I do not know ANY providers that make enough money doing this job where they would even be able to pay the fine even in in installments.

There needs to be more of a support system for providers because the simple truth is some people know and don't care and there are some who truly don't know. I have read things online that don't math up, I have tried to call the ministry, I get half a** answers and then when they email I still don't understand.

A report was made on a local provider and the ministry still hasn't showed up? What are they waiting for then.

The whole industry needs to come up with a way that they can oversee all providers on some kind of registry so they know who is in the industry and they can follow up. Without that I do not see how they are going to make a difference.

[cfred]

Actually, ignorance is exactly the right word. It means lack of information or knowledge. It's not the derogatory word that most people think it is, so yes, those who are not aware of the laws are, in fact, ignorant of them. Most people just have the wrong end of the stick with that word and typically use it incorrectly and as an insult.

At any rate, there IS a support system out there for ICPs (Independent Childcare Providers). The Coalition of Independent Childcare Providers of Ontario (CICPO) has been out there educating since the start of this. We are still here...still working. We have been to Queen's Park to speak on the issue, have led rallies and public information sessions, are attending meetings with the Ministry and agency sector discussing a Cooperative model, have a seat at the Regulatory Committee Meetings where the regulations are being fleshed out. If you have questions or need support, CICPO is where to find what you need. We are currently changing direction and focusing more on advertising, ICP support, structure, registry, etc.....revamping of the website and mandate are coming up soon. Our name is already out there in the news, Ministry, etc...we are in a good position to form a structure for ICPs across the province.

LOL...the Ministry does not care one iota about how much money providers make. If a provider is fined, she will, I would imagine, be forced to sell her home, car, everything she owns and ultimately go bankrupt. Just because you haven't got it, doesn't stop the government from trying to get it anyway. It is a risk not worth taking.

Don't expect the Ministry to support you or any other provider. I can tell you now that it's never going to happen...ever. They are not interested in the unlicensed sector. As far as they're concerned, we can either turn to the agency sector or drop off the face of the earth. Unless it's to bust someone for being non-compliant, they are not going to waste one shiny nickel of resources on us. Period. So if your fellow providers don't know the law, I'd suggest they either read the act or go to CICPO and start asking questions. They ARE doing random inspections WITHOUT complaints, so it's a very real risk.

[Lee-Bee]

Actually, ignorance is exactly the right word. It means lack of information or knowledge. It's not the derogatory word that most people think it is, so yes, those who are not aware of the laws are, in fact, ignorant of them. Most people just have the wrong end of the stick with that word and typically use it incorrectly and as an insult.

At any rate, there IS a support system out there for ICPs (Independent Childcare Providers). The Coalition of Independent Childcare Providers of Ontario (CICPO) has been out there educating since the start of this. We are still here...still working. We have been to Queen's Park to speak on the issue, have led rallies and public information sessions, are attending meetings with the Ministry and agency sector discussing a Cooperative model, have a seat at the Regulatory Committee Meetings where the regulations are being fleshed out. If you have questions or need support, CICPO is where to find what you need. We are currently changing direction and focusing more on advertising, ICP support, structure, registry, etc.....revamping of the website and mandate are coming up soon. Our name is already out there in the news, Ministry, etc...we are in a good position to form a structure for ICPs across the province.

LOL...the Ministry does not care one iota about how much money providers make. If a provider is fined, she will, I would imagine, be forced to sell her home, car, everything she owns and ultimately go bankrupt. Just because you haven't got it, doesn't stop the government from trying to get it anyway. It is a risk not worth taking.

Don't expect the Ministry to support you or any other provider. I can tell you now that it's never going to happen...ever. They are not interested in the unlicensed sector. As far as they're concerned, we can either turn to the agency sector or drop off the face of the earth. Unless it's to bust someone for being non-compliant, they are not going to waste one shiny nickel of resources on us. Period. So if your fellow providers don't know the law, I'd suggest they either read the act or go to CICPO and start asking questions. They ARE doing random inspections WITHOUT complaints, so it's a very real risk.

Cfred sums it up perfectly. Be informed, it is the only way to be safe.
Ignorant merely means being unaware or uninformed. Thinking that calling yourself a babysitter will save you of fines and charges is ignorant whether they are choosing to ignore the info they have or are truly unaware of it (again I find it exceptionally unlikely that more than a very small handful of people in this province can truly be completely unaware).

[Suzie_Homemaker]

Anyone is responsible to keep on top of the regs in their business area. Same as when driving laws change, or anything else. Telling police officer that you didn't know texting was illegal is no more defence then being over ratio.

Here, if caught over numbers, you have to reduce numbers immediately. Literally call parents to come and get their child. They will make other unannounced visits over the year. If you are caught again, you are close down.

Usually, it one or two over, or over-lap but being significantly over they close down first time.

[Van]

To be close down because of an extra child is not worth it, never mind fined $250,000 !!!

[pink]

It's tough in my neighborhood to get those children over 2, wow, looking at other providers in the area, they have the same problem. Unless, you get a family with a baby and a sibling or a new move tough times for providers with that new bill.