Provincial Licencing

[cfred]

I'm looking for input regarding licencing in each province. I know that some provinces offer licencing directly from the government to the home daycare provider, others require agency affiliation.

I'm in Ontario, so I know what's going on here. Those from other provinces, I'd love to hear from you regarding your licensing system and regulations.

Cheers!

[superfun]

In Manitoba, we're licensed through the province. I like it, overall it seems like a decent system. There's a group of us trying to address some if the issues that come up, and the new provincial government seems like it might be listening.

[cfred]

Thanks Superfun! What's the cost of licencing to the provider? It appears that Ontario is the only one that is wholly privatized. All home daycare licencing is via third party agencies and it's not capped, which seems a little insane to us. The cost is huge - 15-30% of gross income. We're thinking there must be a better way.

How does the oversight look there? For example, through an agency here, there is a monthly visitor who comes with a check list, then, potentially a visit from the Ministry annually. The visitor keeps you on track with the regulations between ministry visits. Is it similar there? What do your regs look like as they pertain to your home? I've seen an agency checklist from here and it's very, very extensive. We're sifting through which are Agency mandated as opposed to Ministry mandated.

[kindertime]

You can check out my post from last fall
http://www.daycarebear.ca/forum/showthread.php/8458-Can-some-explain-Quebec-7.40-daycare-system.-Lot-of-questions.

[superfun]

There's no cost to licensing, other than various changes you might need to make to your home, which makes everyone's experience a little different. I had to install 4 hardwired CO2/smoke alarms throughout my house, and add a fire extinguisher. So it wasn't very expensive. Some people need to increase the size of their windows, if they plan on using the basement for napping, to have a second exit in case of emergency. Our licensing sounds a bit opposite of yours, because in our province, you can choose to receive quarterly operating grants. And every licensed home is eligible for a start up grant, whether they choose to be funded or not. So if you choose to be funded, you agree to charge the rates set by the province. In return, they put X amount of dollars into your bank account every three months. The amount varies depending on how many spots you are licensed for. The maximum is 8. I can only be licensed for 6, because I have two of my own kids. Of the 8 licensed spots, only 5 children can be under the age of 6 (special exceptions can be make for full day kinder kids). Of the 5 children under 6, 3 of those can be under the age of 2. If you don't choose to be funded, you are still eligible for the start up grant, and you are free to charge higher rates.
We have 4 unscheduled visits per year. One is a relicensing visit, so that can be quite long. The other 3 are just to check on us. It's always done by our coordinator, and I enjoy my relationship with my coordinator. She can be very helpful and supportive. And I like having someone around that I can express my concerns too. For example, I've only been in child care for 3 years. So if I was worried a child might be delayed, she could watch the child playing to see if she saw the same things I see. Then she could help me determine the next step, if something needed to be done.
Regulations are not awful regarding our homes. If you have steps higher than 24 inches, you need a railing. If you use your basement, you need 2 exits. I have a hot tub, so I had to have a separate fence for it. This is one area that bothers me, because regulations vary from town to town. In my city, we have to follow stricter fire regulations than other areas of the province. No other town or city needs combined co2/smoke alarms hardwired into their home. Everyone else has the option to have a plug in CO2 detector and separate smoke alarms.

[Van]

In BC we are licensed locally by an inspector in our area so you know them from the start as they visit your home to approve of it and tell what changes need to be made then the City inspections happens to have everything to code and fire alarm system needs to be be hard wired in the wall and also the fire fighters need to inspect the house too, to tell you to take down wood panelling etc
final inspection is done by the daycare inspector and she okays it and then you can open your daycare then she turn up for unscheduled inspections to make sure things are safe for children and clean etc - these inspections would be once or twice a year.
we do get money from the BC Gov monthly as they like to know how many daycare spots there are in BC and if there is a waiting list for what age group - there are different daycare such as Family D/care in the home up to 7 kids 2 school age children =( NON ECE)
under 3 =,ECE and Infant/toddler cert.$ children under age3 for 4 to 1 ratio -can be in the home (this is what I ruin in my home with just 4 children)
then over 3's ration 8 to 1 ( set up in homes or centres)
multi-age daycare which is in the home, have to be ECE and can have up to 8 kids different ages and last one is license not required, just for 2 children plus your own - an inspector does not visit these home but they get monthly visits for from the child care resource office - we are usually are members of this resource office and pay just $20 a yer for membership and that is also another way of getting parents in your area as they call the office up and ask about daycare with space available in their area

[Van]

There is no cost to licensing and the BC Gov does not control your fees so you can charge what you like and you fill out an attendance list for your daycare at the end of each month and send it to Victoria by email and the money is sent to your bank a/c, you don't get paid for days the daycare is closed- it works here and we are happy with the system

[Peacefulbird]

Dear cfred, I was at a Ece's conference the past weekend, it was sad to know that other provinces also will be challenged with changes, in Manitoba they're parents and professionals in the field are advocating for $10 a day daycare, and change their adult child ratios.

Quebec doesn't have anymore the popular $7 a day daycare, it is $20 more or less estimated on the family total income. The Quebec representative was concerned, because now parents instead placing their children in public run down daycares, they are choosing to pay a bit more and place.them in new private daycare centres. The proliferation of private centres are stimated on 300%.

These are mega corporations, and homedaycares are also being challenged by this corporations.

Our situation here in Ontario will also face something similar, it was anounced the creation of 100,000 opening spots in the term of five years. And big private corporations have a green light, or how else will this be solved? Parents and professionals are advocating to solve the childcare shortage, they're mobilizing all their efforts, letters, collecting signatures, and no they're celebrating the answer 100,000 spots.

Unfortunately, non for profits will also be challenged by the private sector. If we allow the proliferation of the private sector the will obviously have voice and power to move and change regulations to their favor.

We as homedaycare providers, we have.not even considered as part of their solution, the licensed sector is but even so, statistics show the need for qualit childcare is greater. The conference had good participation of daycare centres, now they.have the oportunity to expand, they will be financed and supported.

So far in my neighbourhood caregivers are already struggling to keep their spots filled. Our challenges are schools offering daycare and lately the new Kids and Co. Corporation opening doors. Our market have decreased.

Honestly I don't think we are done, we will have to face greater challenges now that the private sector.has a green light.

[cfred]

Hi Peacefulbird. You're right. Independent Childcare Providers (ICPs), are not represented at these meetings. We're working hard to gain a foothold, but man it's tough! We were able to get meetings with the Min of Ed and got one regulation changed, but I'll tell you, it took A LOT of work! There were 5-6 meetings which saw our executive committee members flying across the province to attend. And another several meetings including all the stakeholders. One of our execs is flying in from Ottawa for it as I type this. This is not to mention putting together a business plan, presentation, surveys, collection of data, cold calling, rallies, standing committee, press conferences, media interviews, personal expense, etc, etc, etc. For our group, when things are really rolling, it's a full time job on top of our full time jobs. We thought we were there, that we were being counted. To some extent, we are, but the licenced sector wants us gone. Period. They have the ear of the current government and, therefore, the media. The simple fact is that we'll have to fight hard, every step of the way, to gain recognition. We're gearing up again to campaign hard. The entire country is working toward a national framework...and we'd like our sector to be involved in that. We know the province could better utilize the money for those 100,000 spaces. We know that the $23,000,000 earmarked for 610 new spaces, though before the bill had even passed, we lost 690 ICPs...so they're replacing childcare spaces that ALREADY EXISTED and were self sustaining. But this isn't what the public sees. They see headlines and what the Liberals want them to see, but not what's really happening.

FYI, I don't mention all the work entailed for any pats on the back, but rather to illustrate the sheer volume of effort required for what feels like minimal forward movement. So you are absolutely correct; we have greater challenges ahead. But we've come a long way from nothing and I think we can do it. And I can say that sitting in those meetings watching agency reps roll their eyes at us, smirk and even laugh, at times tested my patience to the limit. Till the day I die, reminding them of their much higher infant mortality rate (Auditor General Report) was one of the most gratifying moments of my life. Knowing that we've rattled them enough to spy on us online was also quite satisfying. So I do think we're capable of great change, if we pull together. ICPs have already made it to Queen's Park :)

Of course, we're keeping in mind the upcoming election in 2 years. So the more data we can get now, the better. We need it. I've just put out a survey for providers and I'll post it here too, if you've not seen it yet. Let me say that just from the 300 responses we've had so far, the numbers are very compelling. Please share it with any providers you know. This is very important! I'll be getting another survey out for parents soon. I had hoped by the end of this week, but I think we want to align it with our website, which is almost ready...hopefully within a couple weeks. If you've not joined CICPO on FB, please do. Please pass on this survey to all providers and those who have had to close. I'm sorry to hear that your area is struggling with more competition. I doubt you're alone.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/35YDPN8

[kindertime]

Quebec doesn't have anymore the popular $7 a day daycare, it is $20 more or less estimated on the family total income. The Quebec representative was concerned, because now parents instead placing their children in public run down daycares, they are choosing to pay a bit more and place.them in new private daycare centres. The proliferation of private centres are stimated on 300%.

These are mega corporations, and homedaycares are also being challenged by this corporations.


I wish I'd been at that conference... you are absolutely right about the situation in Quebec. This isn't the proper thread for it here, so I won't get into it, but I personally don't see being in the subsidized system here in 5 years. And to be honest, maybe not even in 1 year. It's getting bad. However, the parents you say are willing to pay a bit more are actually not paying more in the private centers. That's the problem. The tax refund they get monthly often means they pay less for private.

As for the 300%, the percentage of private licenced spaces 5 years ago was 1%... it is now at 20%. I'm not good with math, but I think that's 2000%.

[Peacefulbird]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I thought I made a mistake taking my notes it was 3000%. It seemed ridiculous and I assumed it was 300%. It is true then.

[Peacefulbird]

It is overwhelming, here we go on a roller coaster again. Please read the Toronto Star , we need more spaces,(article). And if you can send your opinion do so. Why independent home daycares are being ignored?

[Van]

I hope all of the private home daycares in Ontario join together and let your voice be heard.....with so many of you the Gov could not ignore you any more, and I am sure now is the time to be heard

[Van]

Hi cfred
just though it may be of interest to you to know that in BC the daycare inspectors also inspect the old folks homes and also the resturants in each area

[cfred]

Thanks, Van. That's interesting....and it makes total sense to multipurpose inspectors. I'll bring that up to the other execs and we can see if that's worth using in our own proposals. I would never have thought of that! I have no idea why this party is so hell bent on forcing us through cost prohibitive agencies when there are so many other alternatives. And the agency folks, most of them ...and childcare advocates...are making it pretty clear that they want us gone. They have a singular vision of what they want to see and how it should happen. If you don't agree with them 100%, you're stonewalled. Even Martha Friendly was reduced to name calling on Twitter and refused to shake the hand of our representative at the advisory committee meeting last week. Turns out she's not so friendly, lol.

I know you're concerned Peacefulbird. We're holding weekly skype meetings and each of the 6 execs has at least one project. We'll get the word out. In the meantime, I would encourage you to keep sending letters to your MPP, to our Minister or Education, to editorial sections, to whoever you think might listen. I would also ask that if you're not already a member, to join CICPO on FB, then subscribe to our website. It doesn't cost anything. Donations are welcome, if you know anyone who wants to help but doesn't know how. Donation contributions are used to fund things like video production, consultations, upgrading surveys, flights to meetings for the Ottawa lot, etc, etc, etc. We do as much as we possibly can by ourselves (or by suckering family members :) ), but some things are just beyond our abilities.

The most important thing right now is to get the surveys out. We need more input from providers....lots more! The parent one is equally important and will be out soon.

[cfred]

CICPO website is up and running. http://www.cicpo.ca/

[Van]

Hi cfed
Here is a link to the check list of what the inspector checks at each daycare home setting or centre , it might help to set up one for Ontario
let me know if you can't open it

http://www.vch.ca/media/VCH-child-care-facilities-inspection-reports-category-deffinitions.pdf

[Peacefulbird]

Dear Cfred. Can please.clarify this? I'm independent and also licensed through an agency applying my own policies which also are similar to the agency, and I'm pretty sure every professional icp is already compliant with.

What parts of a licensing process Icp's do not agree with, besides the pricing, especially here in Ottawa? Anyway, agencies now have a HCCEG (Home child care enhancement grant) a grant that can go up to $20 a day if a caregiver is making less that $252 a day. (Which, I personally think this could also help to pay for our licensing fees)

I have asked to some icps in my area; some of them mentioned the oversight (this really worries me), I think if we are doing a wonderful work as we are, oversight should not be a matter and if we get the chance of opening a co op, oversight will still be applied in order to ensure "quality and safety standards"

Another issue is, the health check up. Would someone explain that why? Aren't we all here fighting to protect our dearly children?

We all have police clearance for everyone over 18 that lives in the house (I hope), first aid CPR training, positive behaviour management (we have this through workshops or letters from parents that certify that); the application or knowledge of How does learning happen doc. (As this is new I'm sure most of us "professionals" are already applying or implementing this on our environments or at least are in the process of doing so).

There are many NON FOR PROFIT AGENCIES. Most of them created to support our communities. Why we do not ask the support of these agencies to our sector? Especially when we are compliant with the CCEYA regulations. Compass is a NON FOR PROFIT and this agency supports their community of Icp's.

It is worrying the fact that stakeholders are having meetings at a federal level and we don't have any representatives there.

[Peacefulbird]

The Associate Ministry of education, Indira Naidoo-Harris, is open to listen, I had a short conversation during a Conference. She needs our feed back, we need to send letters to her.

[cfred]

Hi cfed
Here is a link to the check list of what the inspector checks at each daycare home setting or centre , it might help to set up one for Ontario
let me know if you can't open it

http://www.vch.ca/media/VCH-child-care-facilities-inspection-reports-category-deffinitions.pdf

Thank you, Van! I do appreciate this. I'm trying to paint a picture of what goes on in other provinces for the public in Ontario. This is great! It's also hard to decipher what regulations are Ministry imposed as opposed to Agency imposed.

I apologize for your private message bouncing back. Apparently my inbox was full. I've now cleared it out. :)

[cfred]

Thank you for your message, Peacefulbird. It's not that we are opposed to licencing. As you've stated, good ICPs are already following basic compliance requirements of the Ministry. It's great that you've found a good fit with an agency and it works well for you. However, you should know that non-profit agencies are not available everywhere. In my town, as an example, we have 2 agencies. Both for profit and both, for lack of a better term, absolute shite. Their admin fees are very high and utilize the same model as many other agencies with monthly visits and unrealistic expectations and quality that is so mired in risk management that it's significantly diminished. I have mentioned the Wee Watch approved home a few doors down from me in the past. If THAT is what meets ministry/agency standards, then no, I will not pay 30% of my income for licencing.

I'll start with the monthly visits. First, these are not mandated by the Ministry of Education. They are agency implemented and the reason that most agencies are so cost prohibitive to many providers. The MOE mandates only quarterly visits which, in our opinion, is perfectly reasonable and acceptable for the seasoned, experience ICP. And we have done the math to back it up. There is NO reason agencies need to be as expensive as they are to the provider. Most of us have been running successful, safe and sought after businesses for years and don't require the level of soft services required by agencies. And to top that off, their practices and charges are uncapped.

Next up is Autonomy. We are independent business owners and have developed successful businesses on our own. We implement curricula, provide high quality food, set our fees, contracts, and have performed every other task required in running a viable business. We don't want to hand the reins to anyone else. We DO want oversight, but feel it should be the MOE that provides it, not third party entities that are being forced upon us.

And of course, let's not forget the rift between the licenced sector and ICPs. It wasn't that long ago that they were out there along with the MOE and media, perpetuating lie after lie after lie about our quality of care. Collectively, they made 'unlicenced' synonymous with 'unsafe' and 'illegal'. And then the Auditor General's Report came out showing that the licenced sector, in fact, has a much higher infant death rate than ICPs, we saw why the bill was pushed through quickly. And let's not forget about all the children they keep misplacing.....over 2000 of them between 2009 and 2014. When questioned about this by our rep in a meeting recently, the response was a shoulder shrug and 'These things happen'.

No, these things do NOT happen.

And still the licenced sector continues with their portrayal of us and the MOE continues to have discussions at a federal level, including the licenced sector, about a national framework that does not involve the largest sector of childcare. They are steamrolling ahead with a plan in complete ignorance of the real childcare climate. They have to be as they've never once collected data about the ICP sector, which holds 78% of the market. Instead, they're trying to push us out. And I'll tell you something else...their priority is on centre care. Otherwise, I would say that the 3.8 billion they're about to spend on 100,000 spaces ($38,000/space) could be more effectively managed by licencing home daycare providers.

I know this has been long. We've heard your questions before. This is more complicated than wanting to be licenced vs not wanting to be licenced. The entire system is a mess and needs to be fixed. Rather than clinging to the antiquated system we currently have that is, frankly, unsustainable and not what most parents want anyway, maybe they should wake up, listen to every stakeholder (including families) in PROPER consultation and fix the problem.