We may be terminated by the end of our second day...

We arranged a series of playdates where our prospective caregiver could see our son interacting with others before we came to an agreement regarding some part-time care. There were some issues as our boy hasn't been highly socialized (he's 2). However, we were assured and all agreed that it appeared that he was settling in quicker with each successive playdate. We had our first day of full care and it was a complete disaster. I was told that he was aggressive with the other kids and had had several dramatic meltdowns. Caregiver suggests that this arrangement may not work. I can totally appreciate that she feels that it may not be the best situation for either of them.

How long do you give a child, that is brand new to care in general, to settle in before suggesting termination? How do I go about finding a better situation if we are terminated? We are only doing full care during my training period for my new job (expected to be approx. one week) and will then switch to part time care for approx 20 afternoon hours over 4 days a week.

Your expected hours of care needed is what will hold you back more than your son's behaviour.

I usually try to give it three weeks before making any kind of decision. Aggressive behaviour is different as there is a responsibility to the other children to provide a safe place to play so that would need to show some sort of improvement within the first week or proof the child will listen and obey when reprimanded - reminded the behaviour is not acceptable at daycare. For the small amount she is going to earn she is likely not interested in even trying to work through the situation.

You say afternoon hours. Be sure your child is busy in the morning, has a good lunch and arrives in need of a nap. That is the only way the afternoons are going to work because providers guard that time carefully.

As far as what to look for in a new caregiver - make sure she has only 1 or 2 children and plans to keep her daycare very small so that your son can have the extra attention he will need. This may cost you more than a larger group setting.

Ugh, sounds like an unfortunate situation all the way around. Sorry to hear this.

Typically, I've found that it takes a few weeks to transition a new child into the setting. It's a pretty big upheaval for the little guys. However, I've not had to deal with much aggression...a little, but nothing terribly substantial. Did she qualify what she considers to be 'aggressive'? If it's akin to a child snatching toys away from others or trying to establish himself at the peak of the hierarchy (yep, kids have them), then that's something that I would consider manageable. Meltdowns happen, but I know there are meltdowns and MELTDOWNS. If the child is just having his freak out on his own and being nothing more than a disturbance, I think that can also be dealt with.

On the other side of the coin, if the child's meltdowns include behaviour that is hazardous to himself, his peers or his provider, it may be necessary to terminate for the benefit of the group. One thing that happens a lot (and understandably) is that people usually don't see the situation beyond their part in it. It's normal. But she must consider everyone, including herself. If the child is affecting the whole group in a negative manner, or they're in harms way, other parents will pull their children out, thereby dramatically impacting her business. And perhaps, (I don't know details of course), but maybe she's not been in the biz quite as long? I've been at it 20 yrs and have raised my own three, so meltdowns don't faze me at all....my 'tune out' skills are solid! I can see where frequent meltdowns could be enough to curl the hair of someone a bit younger or less experienced, thereby making it difficult to to their job effectively.

I can see both sides. However, there's not much information to go on, so I'm looking at it with a whole lot of 'what ifs'. Have you asked her, specifically, what the behaviours are? With me, it's all in how things are brought to the table. I have one little guy right now who is driving me crazy....but the parents are remarkable and trying so hard to work with me. That makes all the difference.

I have had those first days where I'm ready to throw in the towel. I had a 3 year old hide in the corner for an entire first day, then when I approached him to take him to lunch he aggressively came at me. I thought... there's no way this is going to work. But I stuck with it and after a week he settled right in. Now he's my little helper. Loves being here and I love having him.

I think 3 weeks is a good amount of time. All good caregivers know that all children will have a transitional period where they learn what is expectable and what isn't at a daycare.

In saying that... most providers know their limits and assuming this is a good provider i'm sure she's looking out for the best interest of both her business and you child.

What do you mean he hasn't been socialized? Have you taught him not to hit, fight, bite, or be mean to YOU and the other people in his life?

If you knew he wasn't capable of being around others without being physical then you knew he couldn't manage little children.

It's your job to teach him to obey adults, follow directions, be patient, and keep his hands to himself. Have you done that? A child care environment is where the skills you have already taught him get fine tuned NOT where they are first learned.

Take him out immediately for the sake of the other kids and the adult caregivers. Do it for them. Don't worry about what is best for him, you, or your family. Think COMMUNITY first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by playfelt

Your expected hours of care needed is what will hold you back more than your son's behaviour.

I usually try to give it three weeks before making any kind of decision. Aggressive behaviour is different as there is a responsibility to the other children to provide a safe place to play so that would need to show some sort of improvement within the first week or proof the child will listen and obey when reprimanded - reminded the behaviour is not acceptable at daycare. For the small amount she is going to earn she is likely not interested in even trying to work through the situation.

You say afternoon hours. Be sure your child is busy in the morning, has a good lunch and arrives in need of a nap. That is the only way the afternoons are going to work because providers guard that time carefully.

As far as what to look for in a new caregiver - make sure she has only 1 or 2 children and plans to keep her daycare very small so that your son can have the extra attention he will need. This may cost you more than a larger group setting.

---

Thank you. Our arrangement is for a full time spot regardless of the number of actual number of hours that he will spend there. Our caregiver has 2 boys (one older and one about the same age as mine) and has also taken on a younger girl.

I think that I will have to look for a sitter instead that can take him out to a play group/StrongStart instead.

Why can't you take him out in the mornings when playgroups exist if he is only in care in the afternoon?

Daycare is not where you learn to socialize as another poster said. Yes YOU need to take him to places and help him work though the process of getting along with others. What did you do with him for the first two years of his life - keep him locked up at home, never visiting a park, neighbour, playgroup? He spent two years being the kingpin of the kingdom and well doesn't like that he is now just one of the courtiers well too bad - a lesson all kids must learn. Being one of the crowd sucks for sure when you have been taught the world will cater to you. Sounds like you have a lot of lessons you need to teach your child before they will be ready to enter society. Don't blame your lack of training on the provider or children in care. The responsibility rests with you so get out there and enjoy those playgroups with your son.

A sitter that will take him out to playgroup during the day is called a nanny and that can be extremely expensive for one child and rarely do they stand for any kind of behaviour issues from their charges.

As a provider I would give it at least a couple weeks. Your son is 2, and hitting, biting and meltdowns are age appropriate as usually (especially with boys) they do not have the language to express themselves properly. Of course, these things need to be worked on which is why I would be willing to give it more time. If it is a major safety concern then of course your provider needs to think of the group as a whole, but he may just be acting up due to the big change in his life. Myself, I would give it more time and work with you to help him practice new coping skills and learn what is ok and what is not ok. Good luck Mama!! I had a 2 yrs old very much like this and now that he is 3 it is a world of difference! Just work on it, hard every day and never let him get away with it. He'll learn!

Was your son aggressive when you were at the playdate? Do you talk to him about his behaviour and explain to him that it is unacceptable and he has to learn patience and being nice to others at daycare? Have you and the caregiver talked it all through and come up with a plan of action so that you are both using the same words and discipline actions so your son learns quickly what he absolutely cannot do? That's how I would proceed as the caregiver, get the parent on board. If you didn't help me I would have to say goodbye, but I would give it a chance to see improvement for at least a few weeks.

I sometimes give a few weeks or so before determining that a new child is not transitioning well and termination must be considered, but if the behaviour and lack of daycare readiness is too extreme, the decision can be reached in the first day or two as well.

You mention that he is 2 years old and has not been well socialized, and the caregiver described aggression to the other children and "dramatic meltdowns". These are not unheard of in children this age, certainly, but they are not to be casually passed off as "age appropriate behaviours" either. They are unacceptable and undesirable behaviours which need to be corrected. What are your son's habits and routines like with respect to eating, sleeping/napping, etc? If he has not been raised with schedules and expectations for eating and sleeping that are similar to the way it is typically done in a daycare setting, that will only exacerbate his inability to cope in group care. If so, I would suggest you work seriously on getting him daycare ready, which means a napping schedule the same as the daycare does (and no laying down with him, rubbing his back to sleep, etc, because a daycare provider does not have the time to do that, with 5 children to look after, and if he expects/needs this to sleep, he's going to be very unhappy, and so is the provider.) Also, is your son accustomed to playing alone with his toys (with your supervision), but without you playing with and entertaining him most of the time? This is important as well. Your son needs more than just TIME to transition to daycare; he needs to be given the training and tools that he needs to succeed in a group care situation. The training and tools he needs start at HOME, ideally long before he's 2 and entering daycare for the first time... but now is better than later, or never.

For what ever its worth, after reading some of the comments, I am not raising a feral child nor do I keep him in a crate. He is generally a very happy and easy going child. He does get stuck on things...he loves the escalator but gets stuck on it when we go to the playarea (they are less than 20 feet apart). He has a routine for nap, meals, bathtime and bedtime. We go to the park everyday, rain or shine. He plays well on his own with his toys, reads to himself in a quiet room and interacts with us in a fairly constant congenial manner.

Seriously, a couple of you are way off base with your response to my simple request for input.

To those that responded without making me appear to be unfit, thank you. Thank you, for letting me know that kids need time to transition. His behaviour was much improved today and the caregiver was very happy. His aggression and meltdown from yesterday was apparently due to an outing to the playarea in the building (by the escalator). The trip was short because he kept heading to the escalator...meltdown followed when they all had to head back upstairs. He was aggressive but not hitting, biting or fighting.

I believe that he was overwhelmed with the stress of the day and didn't know how to deal with it. We've never even had occasion to get a babysitter for him in is own home much less leave him in someone elses home. I'm not looking to my caregiver to fix everything for us...I am looking for someone who can give us some honest feedback and offer us some ideas on how to approach some things differently. We had a good long talk today and we can both see that he just needs some time to settle in.

Read for comprehension please.

Seriously? We are at the park every morning. We do playgroups once a week. We have no family here and no friends with children. I did not offer to lay blame anywhere. I asked two simple questions. Nothing more and nothing less.

Happy that things seem to be working out for you:)

I get one of the issues now from reading the escalator story. It is actually a common scenario with only children that mom or dad follows their lead and lets them do certain things instead of directing them in a different direction. When you are dealing with a group of children it is expected that the "group" will cooperate and work as a unit. By the time a child is 2 they have learned that no matter what the rules are at home at daycare I have to do as Ms.... says even if I want to still play in area A we move on to area B - ie into the play area and away from the escalator. We do not have tantrums because we do not get our own way.

The reason your caregiver is saying it won't work is because she must take her group on several outings and they have all learned to function as a group putting the interests of the group over individual desires and follow the teacher's lead. If your child is not willing to compromise and work with the group then they are not a good match for the group and need someone who can let them wander off on their own - ie their own caregiver.

The same scenario is going to play out no matter where your child goes. You can help your child through this problem by teaching him that you are the authority not him. That means you let him ride the escalator up and down and then you tell him time to go to the play area or to a store or whatever and if he protests you remind him that his job is to do as he is told, take his hand and go where you said you were going. No matter how much he protests he is not allowed to go back to the escalator. IF he behaves in the place you go he will be allowed to take the escalator back down or whatever at the end of play. IF he puts up a protest he loses the privilege and must take the stairs or elevator but will get a chance the next day or soon to try again to listen and obey the new rules. THEN your child will be ready to go into group care - he is not top dog and unfortunately you have taught him that he is. Not intentionally I am sure but just by letting him do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by playfelt

The same scenario is going to play out no matter where your child goes. You can help your child through this problem by teaching him that you are the authority not him. That means you let him ride the escalator up and down and then you tell him time to go to the play area or to a store or whatever and if he protests you remind him that his job is to do as he is told, take his hand and go where you said you were going. No matter how much he protests he is not allowed to go back to the escalator. IF he behaves in the place you go he will be allowed to take the escalator back down or whatever at the end of play. IF he puts up a protest he loses the privilege and must take the stairs or elevator but will get a chance the next day or soon to try again to listen and obey the new rules. THEN your child will be ready to go into group care - he is not top dog and unfortunately you have taught him that he is. Not intentionally I am sure but just by letting him do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

---

Yes. Exactly this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucyskye

For what ever its worth, after reading some of the comments, I am not raising a feral child nor do I keep him in a crate. He is generally a very happy and easy going child. He does get stuck on things...he loves the escalator but gets stuck on it when we go to the playarea (they are less than 20 feet apart). He has a routine for nap, meals, bathtime and bedtime. We go to the park everyday, rain or shine. He plays well on his own with his toys, reads to himself in a quiet room and interacts with us in a fairly constant congenial manner.

Seriously, a couple of you are way off base with your response to my simple request for input.

To those that responded without making me appear to be unfit, thank you. Thank you, for letting me know that kids need time to transition. His behaviour was much improved today and the caregiver was very happy. His aggression and meltdown from yesterday was apparently due to an outing to the playarea in the building (by the escalator). The trip was short because he kept heading to the escalator...meltdown followed when they all had to head back upstairs. He was aggressive but not hitting, biting or fighting.

I believe that he was overwhelmed with the stress of the day and didn't know how to deal with it. We've never even had occasion to get a babysitter for him in is own home much less leave him in someone elses home. I'm not looking to my caregiver to fix everything for us...I am looking for someone who can give us some honest feedback and offer us some ideas on how to approach some things differently. We had a good long talk today and we can both see that he just needs some time to settle in.

---

I can`t understand why some of these providers respond so harshly. You asked a simple question about transition periods for kids at daycare and some of these responses caught me off guard too...has nothing to do with your original question. The response by daycarewhisperer was totally uncalled for, extremely rude, and didn`t even address your question. If you read some of the questions and responses by some of the providers on here they seem like such bitter, uncaring individuals. I`m often surprised that they even have a daycare business... if parents saw their posts on here they would be surprised. So don`t you worry about the rude responses on here, that`s just how they are. Good luck with your current daycare provider, hopefully she`s a good and caring provider.

HaHa...does anyone else spy a troll? Sounds uncanny how much this sounds like another certain trouble maker who was on here until recently.

Troll or not, I have to say I sadly agree :( I , too find some of the responses harsh. You can communicate something to someone asking for help/advice in a polite manner no matter what you think of the topic. This is a Mom, leaving her child in care for the first time and reaching out. Most of us are Moms, and most of us are caregivers...seems like it should be a great place to come and get some positive words of encouragement/advice/new ideas to try etc. Just my two cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lou

Troll or not, I have to say I sadly agree :( I , too find some of the responses harsh. You can communicate something to someone asking for help/advice in a polite manner no matter what you think of the topic. This is a Mom, leaving her child in care for the first time and reaching out. Most of us are Moms, and most of us are caregivers...seems like it should be a great place to come and get some positive words of encouragement/advice/new ideas to try etc. Just my two cents.

---

Yep I agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Island29

I can`t understand why some of these providers respond so harshly. You asked a simple question about transition periods for kids at daycare and some of these responses caught me off guard too...has nothing to do with your original question. The response by daycarewhisperer was totally uncalled for, extremely rude, and didn`t even address your question. If you read some of the questions and responses by some of the providers on here they seem like such bitter, uncaring individuals. I`m often surprised that they even have a daycare business... if parents saw their posts on here they would be surprised. So don`t you worry about the rude responses on here, that`s just how they are. Good luck with your current daycare provider, hopefully she`s a good and caring provider.

---

Just because someone asks a question it doesn't require the responders to answer that question. If someone posts “I'm going to commit suicide. Should I kill myself with a 57 Chevy or a 57 Magnum?", the responders are going to say DON'T KILL YOURSELF.

This is the internet. The op is just a parent who is asking a question. Within her question there were words that mean the question she is asking isn't the real issue. The real issue is having an unsocialized two year old who couldn't make it thru day one without getting aggressive with the kids. THAT'S way more important than how to transition.

And for what it is worth, I am completely out there on the internet. I have been for about three years. I use my real name (Tori Fees)and my clients are completely knowledgeable about my internet presence. They read my blogs on daycare.com, here, and Facebook group. They see my Trademark certificate for my consulting business “Daycare Whisperer" at drop off and pick up.

September 17th will mark my twentieth anniversary in Home Child Care. I've been at this for a long while. I'm interested in REAL conversation regarding child care. It's not bitter or rude to point out a significant issue and to ask direct questions regarding someone's post. It may be that this is the first time this op has been enlightened about her personal responsibility to train her child to mind adults and keep his hands to himself. Trust me, many many parents unleash their horribly behaving kid on child care providers every day without considering the OTHER children who will fall victim to their “lack of socialization".

We aren't obligated to only answer what is best for the op's child. It's okay if we make mention of the OTHER kids and the provider in our response.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fun&care

Yep I agree.

---

I had been feeling the same way which is why I was staying out of it.

Ladies, please, you of course can answer what ever aspect you want of a question- but do it respectfully please.

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with these criticisms of being "too harsh", and for the moderator to remind us to be respectful. I suspect that my (earlier) response on this thread is likely one of the responses being chastised as "harsh", but it is not harsh, it is just honest and un-sugar-coated, and it's meant to HELP the original poster to understand what her 2 year old child needs from her in the way of training to prepare him to have any hope of success transitioning to group care. The woman's child was in danger of being terminated after his first couple of days of daycare, due to (in her own words) his lack of socialization, his aggression, and his dramatic meltdowns. She may WANT her hand held and to be told that she's done everything right and everything will be A-OK, but what she NEEDS is some tough love to set her on the right track for the discipline and socialization of her son.

I'm getting so tired of the way this forum often seems to shift over to the Everything's-Rosy-and-Sunshine-and-Lollipops mentality, and those of us who offer a more honest and non-sugar-coated opinion are labeled "disrespectful". I am not disrespectful just because I may have an opinion that you disagree with or that doesn't align with your "I want advice as long as it's what I want to hear" mindset.

I'm also very annoyed at the way this forum seems to be very biased towards the occasional parent who posts here, rather than the many providers who make up the vast majority of the traffic on these boards. The moderator(s) will jump in and defend a parent (or wait way too long to chastise or ban them, or even to remove their defamatory posts), but are quick to remind us providers to be respectful to them, even though 99.9% of us ARE respectful; we're merely pointing out (in this case) the flaws in their parenting skills or philosophies, as they relate to having a child in group care.

I don't disagree with you Jammies. What I am tired of though is the "parent bashing" that happens on here. When a parent does ask a question a lot of the time lately the providers are quick to look for "discrepancies" in their story and defend the provider. I get that we need to "defend our own" especially in today's climate of home daycare's and their portrayal in the media but I think on the forum the scale is often tipped too much to the point of being annoying.

There is also an air of "I am a better parent then other parents because I chose to stay home with my kids." Which I am not sure if this is merely opinion or an insecurity. I know I am a good parent but this doesn't mean I am a better parent then the parents of the children I care for just because I spend my days with my kids. Sorry to take the conversation off course.

I completely agree that what needs to be said, needs to be said. However, anything and everything can be communicated without making the poster feel dumb/incompetent/ horrible. Suggestions can be made to help build up a person's confidence that the issues at hand can be dealt with in a kind, non-arrogant manner to empower them, not humiliate them.

Anyways, yes, sorry OP! Didn't mean to hijack your thread :)

Lou- that was very well said!

When a parent feels attacked I step in and 'moderate' the discussion, it is neither productive nor helpful to spend energy trying to poke holes in a parents story or attack them making them feel incompetent.

I, personally, see that everyone has a different parenting style and that is fine. What is not fine, is when parents or daycare providers believe that their way is the only way. By chastising parents it makes an 'us' vs. 'them' attitude much worse. We work better when we work together.