Strange form of discipline

[fruitloop]

I'm sorry, but I think kids were definitely better behaved back in the day...before all these "new wave, be your kid's friend" techniques came out. So, in short, I agree with this statement from kidlove...

Where did that world go? now everything is equal rights, and no violence (as if that form of discipline has been warped into such a horrid and violent act) a spanking in the woodshed years ago was the "norm" I don't think it raised a "beaten" society, I actually feel the opposite, it taught men to be men, and children to respect. It raised a more responsible society rather than one that looks for a crutch or handout or someone to feel sorry for the "abuse" they recieved.
Nothing at all wrong with choosing to raise your kids with out the use of physical punishment, but...what is so wrong with raising your kids with "old fashioned" technique and values. No choice is better or worse, both can work just as effective...just depends what the child needs.

I'm not saying that you NEED to beat your child to make them "submit" or "teach them a lesson" but sometimes there are actions that need immediate consequences. Parents need to say no to their kids. If they cry...all well, let them cry. They need to be taught that they can't always have everything their way or at that very moment. I notice a lot of parents that don't want their child to cry ever or feel disappointment. WTH...ya because they'll NEVER feel that as an adult. They need to experience these things so they know how to cope with them. Point is, and I think we're trying to make the same point, that parents need to step up and PARENT their child/ren using whatever form of discipline is right for them. If you are ok with spankings, then fine, if you and your kids do great with talking or t/o or whatever...awesome!

[kidlove]

God Bless you Fruitloop, you get me!!!!!! This world is getting so "New Age" all the time. Good to here we can keep it alive for a little longer. Either view I dont disagree, just nice to have a small group still in this boat. Welcome aboard..grab an ore!! it can get rocky.

[kidlove]

No need for your answer alpha, sure I can imagine myself.

[Sandbox Sally]

I'm sorry, but I think kids were definitely better behaved back in the day...before all these "new wave, be your kid's friend" techniques came out. So, in short, I agree with this statement from kidlove...



I'm not saying that you NEED to beat your child to make them "submit" or "teach them a lesson" but sometimes there are actions that need immediate consequences. Parents need to say no to their kids. If they cry...all well, let them cry. They need to be taught that they can't always have everything their way or at that very moment. I notice a lot of parents that don't want their child to cry ever or feel disappointment. WTH...ya because they'll NEVER feel that as an adult. They need to experience these things so they know how to cope with them. Point is, and I think we're trying to make the same point, that parents need to step up and PARENT their child/ren using whatever form of discipline is right for them. If you are ok with spankings, then fine, if you and your kids do great with talking or t/o or whatever...awesome!

I completely agree that this newest generation of children (ie, our children) has brought forth a ridiculous amount of coddled, disrespectful citizens. What I do not understand is how that equates with a lack of corporal punishment. I think there are still plenty of spankers out there. If debate boards and mainstream parenting boards are any good indicator, I'd say that spankers are still in the majority.

I am neither new agey or "friends" with my kids. I mean, I am friends with them to a degree, sure, as in we have fun hanging out together, and they trust me to be able to come to me with concerns and problems, but they know that I am their parent first and foremost, and they completely respect that (for the mostpart, of course - after all, they ARE kids, and they still mess up).

I put forth to spankers the idea that consequences do not have to come in the form of physical punishment. My own children, as well as the children of ALL of my friends and family, have very clear and very heavy consequences for misbehaviour. The consequences just don't include spanking. I can't buy into the idea that the only way to raise a productive, respectful citizen is to spank them. I just can't. I've seen too many success stories from families who don't spank to think that this is a reasonable conclusion to draw.

I couldn't agree with you more about the new age crap, the "time in" set, the ZERO consequences parenting. It's not effective. It's become more common to just not parent your kids. People are too busy, too lazy, too stupid...who knows? However, I think this has little to do with sparing the rod.

GOOD parenting can absolutely be accomplished without spanking. Non spankers, just as spankers, have to invest the time. Might I suggest that it's not a lack of spanking that's spewing forth these little heathens, rather, a lack of parenting.

[kidlove]

But...you have to understand from a "spanking parents" point of view......spanking is part of parenting. So, my idea of "not parenting" does actually include not spanking. Just as your idea or not parenting includes your form of punishment. To each his own really, I'm sure you and I and all parents alike are on the same side ultimately when it comes to the topic of "poorly behaved children" however, no matter how you slice it, (although both ways of parenting we are able to raise the same type children) our approaches will evermore be very different. Kuddos to you for being a terrific Mom...no joking! really, there aren't many out there it seems.

[Sandbox Sally]

But...you have to understand from a "spanking parents" point of view......spanking is part of parenting. So, my idea of "not parenting" does actually include not spanking. Just as your idea or not parenting includes your form of punishment. To each his own really, I'm sure you and I and all parents alike are on the same side ultimately when it comes to the topic of "poorly behaved children" however, no matter how you slice it, (although both ways of parenting we are able to raise the same type children) our approaches will evermore be very different. Kuddos to you for being a terrific Mom...no joking! really, there aren't many out there it seems.

You say above that your idea of not parenting includes not spanking. You can't think I am both not parenting (by not spanking), and that I'm a terrific mom.

[Inspired by Reggio]

To spank or not to spank is a VERY personal journey ~ however I will admit that I do love listening to debates about why people think it 'works' and why others think it is not acceptable or damaging to children's psyche ~ I learn so much about other peoples logic of their decisions!

IMO the discussion and reflection on all our practices in life are imperative to the personal journey that is life ... from spanking to health and nutrition, our spirituality, education, relationships and so forth ~ asking ourselves WHY and reflecting on our past and where we want to be in our future is all part of us perfecting this journey called life

I often wonder back in history how similar debates unfolded in communities, town halls, dinner tables around the country ... debates of 'changing views on social acceptableness' .... back when we decided to free the slaves and the debates on would that be good or bad and how they must have sounded ~ it seems so 'normal' for us to see this practice as wrong now but I cannot help but wonder how did one argue that it was 'acceptable' practice back than cause it must have seemed normal for them that this was an OK thing to practice?

Or back when women stood up and demanded to be seen as 'people' under the law verse property and demanded the right to vote, to work outside the home, to hold office and so forth and those who fought against that change because of fear that allowing it would result in chaos to their way of life ... the number of women who were beaten and ostracized for daring to stand up against the 'norm' and demand more for themselves and yet here we are in 2012 we cannot imagine not having the rights and freedoms we have or living in a society where we were allowed to be treated with so little dignity.

Or over the past 40 years the repeated revisiting of discussions over the use of corporal punishment in various scenarios as society started reflecting on what worked or did not work or what was 'right or wrong' or socially acceptable or not to do to another human being so to speak as we created the laws that govern us as a society ... thinking back to not too long ago in our history when it was common practice in our society to use spanking as discipline not just in our homes but in our schools, in our churches, in our prisons, in our mental hospitals, in places of employment .... this was something legal to do and ANY adult could do it to someone they had power/authority over teaching / educating / supervising because it was seen as the most effective way to 'correct behavior' .... but now a days if a teacher spanked your child even the 'spankers' amongst us would likely be livid because we do not see that as acceptable any longer.

So the debates and shifts in thinking that took a long time coming to stop those practices as people clung to what they 'knew' to be effective regardless of if it was 'best' ... I am sure we can all agree that we could not honestly imagine that it would be ok if you did not starch your spouses work shirts properly that he could turn you over his knee and give you 5 spanks with his hand or a hairbrush or whatever or that if you were working in an office setting and forgot to refill the photocopier that it was acceptable for the boss to spank you in an effort to help you learn to perform properly .... for us this now seems ludicrous logic to think that this was 'needed' in order to control women cause we know we are fully capable of learning through consistent expectations and TIME to master skills but our ancestors this was common practice for women to be expected to disciplined in this manner .... just like in many households we still hold true to this logic for children that they 'need' this physical punishment to help them 'get it' so to speak.

I think we can agree that as women we've come a long way since those days in Canada where we as women were not seen as individuals with rights but rather the property first of our parents and than of our spouse, where it was legal to use corporal punishment on us to 'teach' us how to properly run a house, to not talk back to our spouse and so forth basically for us to be continually treated as we treat children well into adulthood because we were not seen to be able to grow in any other way .... IMO we still just have a long way to come in how we view the children in our society and what rights and protections they should have in comparison of other members of society .... we are all human after all and there should be some rights we all share regardless of age!

So IMO just as our ancestors in eras past had a long way to come on their personal journey of how and what was 'best' the reality is there was no 'right or wrong' back them they were all doing the best they could with the resources and science and other factors they had available to them at the time and as they grew and their knowledge evolved so did their practice and while initially some resisted eventually the new way become the 'norm' for all .... and so we are still growing and evolving in regards to how we treat ourselves, our children, the animals, the earth and so forth .... these are all just other 'lessons' we are all still learning together as human beings

Look around the world to see all the varied levels of 'self discovery' and 'social accountability' to each other that you can see ... we are so vastly on different paths still and sometimes we find it hard to imagine how other countries cannot be in the same places as we are in some areas ~ like the treatment of women in Middle Eastern countries and how we as a North American often 'judge' them for being so barbaric in their treatment of women and children and heck we even have gone to war to prevent that treatment ... but the reality is that it is not so very different from how we were treated back in the 1700, 1800 and early 1900's and yet we already find it hard to imagine that ever being tolerated or condoned in our society and cannot imagine how they do not 'see' the wrong in how they treat women and so forth but yet for THEM they are steadfast in their logic as to why they do what they do and they are willing to fight to maintain their way of life despite our evidence that there is a 'better way' to treat women?

And these are the reasons why discussions around 'why' are so important because each time we have them more light gets shed on truly reflecting on our practices and we move along our journey.

In my life there were so many times I 'resisted' change because I was comfortable with the way things were and they worked for me so why change .... for example I resisted the computer for ages because I felt that handwritten was more personal but eventually the more discussions I had with others over the benefits the less afraid I become of the change and now I do everything on the computer

[kidlove]

You took my words out of "my Meaning" I meant MY idea as in (kidloves idea) of "not parenting" is not spanking, because Kidloves beliefs are dif than yours and Kidlove feels that HER proper parenting INCLUDES spanking. but I added that I (kidlove) also believe, it IS possible to raise a proper and well behaved child, without spanking. Just not MY (kidloves) choice of parenting. You ARE a good parent, I can tell by the way you talk about your children and their raising...as I AM a good parent with the way I talk about my children and their raising, however...we choose to do it differently. That's All!!!!

[Sandbox Sally]

I am sure we can all agree that we could not honestly imagine that it would be ok if you did not starch your spouses work shirts properly that he could turn you over his knee and give you 5 spanks with his hand or a hairbrush or whatever or that if you were working in an office setting and forgot to refill the photocopier that it was acceptable for the boss to spank you in an effort to help you learn to perform properly

This is an excellent analogy. I wish I could figure out how to multi quote, because I am in love with this entire post. Very eloquently said, Reggio.

[kidlove]

Thanks for your view Reggio. Was nice (and long) to have another opinion. You have some great points, respect girlfriend. Still doesn't change my mind, I will continue to spank (if neccesary) and hope my kids will raise their kids the same and on and on for generations to come. I respect and honor my Grandparents and Parents ways of life and will continue those "ways" passing on to my kids who will pass to theres. I understand your view point and respect it...it's you right. However the more we try to analyze and fix the world IMO the more "screwed up" it will be. "Just leave well enough alone", that's my motto. God gave me the intelligence to do what I do, I didn't have to further my education to become a good Mom, just have to rely on the good Lord and I have all the know how I need. Some call it "street smarts" some call it "common sense" what ever you call it, thats all you need to do a good job at being a Mom and a Good Wife. No womens lib, no reading this book or that, just down right common sense. and a good role model....my momma was awsome. (so was my grammy)