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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    2 Times in 2 Posts

    What would you do!!!


    I need some advice.

    I have ( had) a daycare boy age 3 who turns 4 in a few days.

    I started looking after him in July. He is a only child with two cousins that he rarely sees. His nonna provided care for him while his parents worked. He was brought to me because I live a block from the the public school he attends and his nonna lives too far from the school to provide care ( She lives close to dads work).

    From day one he has been a handful. Spoiled does not begin to describe this child. He had everything done for him and when I absolutely refused to do it he would throw a fit. He constantly wets his pants, expects to be dressed, and is as slow as molasses getting him to do anything.. His parents/nonna never make him do anything and set no boundaries..
    He can not listen and wants his own way 1000% of the time. His kindergarten teacher has the same complaint. Which does not happen here.

    Daily timeouts are part of the care routine. (4 minutes on the chair once he is sitting quietly)

    Last week he threw a fit when the other girl I provide care for wanted to play something else and not what he wanted to play, he got so mad he threw a heavy toy at her hitting in her in the head.. Luckily she was more scared than anything and he earned a hour on the timeout chair for that.

    Yesterday he had another fit, resulting in his normal screaming. As usual I removed him from the play area to the bedroom to have him quiet down. I do this by taking him by the hand and walking him down. It took him a long time to calm himself and he did scratch his face in the process.

    Once he was able to return to play I emailed mom to let her know. Her response ( as always) was that they would talk with him. That is all they ever do with this child.

    Last night dad called me after pick up to ask about the scratches.. I only knew about one and I explained it happened during his fit.. He also wanted to know why his son's shirt was all stretched out. I said the kids had been playing rambunctiously and that was possibly why it happened. ( it was very cold and rainy here so no outdoor play to burn off energy) My 14 month old constantly pulls herself up on the kids as well.

    Well it turns out the boy told dad.. I grabbed him and dragged him down the hall so NOT true.. but its my word against his and as a parent he wants to believe and protect his child. I completely understand that. He told me on the phone he did not believe I did that and as for the other scratch it could have happened during play or even at school. I do not recall seeing any other marks on the child other than the one scratch that he did himself.

    This morning I woke up to the following email.

    " After much discussion with ------ ( child) and my wife the decision has been madeto remove ----- from your care. While we are not accusing you of anything at this point, given the unexplained injuries and what our child is saying. we feel it necessary to seek legal counsel and will advice you in due course"

    WTF? This email was sent at 1133pm. Anything legal will have to wait until this morning.

    I am absolutely sick to my stomach about this. I have never ever had this happen before. It could very well ruin my livelyhood. For the most part I absolutely LOVE ( we all have days we do not lol) what I do.

    Should I get a lawyer or wait and see? My husband is being awesome about this ( or as awesome as he can be via text he is already at work).
    What do I tell the other parent ( I only have one other child in care right now). That child is a dream come true to look after and this is the same child the toy was thrown at.
    Should I stop advertising for children?

    I am very confused and scared at what all this means for my family.

    Any advice would be welcomed.

  2. #2
    Starting to feel at home...
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    56 Times in 43 Posts
    First of all, don't panic. I know it can be scary and nerve wracking to hear about "legal counsel", but try not to let it freak you out. Unfortunately, you're just going to have to wait and see what it is that they do in order to see what your response should be. They may not do anything so it's too early at this point to hire a lawyer.

    In terms of the other parent, you don't have to give out any information. Just tell her that so and so won't be coming any more and that his parents decided that something else would fit them better.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Euphoric !
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Ottawa, Ontario
    1,469 Times in 1,125 Posts
    Scary and more annoying than anything for sure. As if we didn't put up with enough on a daily basis. The fact the child's behaviour is out of control at school too will certainly help in your favour. As far as the shirt goes and the scratches both are normal play/tantrum reactions. Child could have done it himself in frustration and there is no way for anyone to prove otherwise. A scratch is not considered abuse by anyone unless it happens on a consistent basis. Basically the parents don't have a lot to go on and doubtful a lawyer would procede with anything since it is all based on heresay and no facts.

    They may very well call authorities and you may get a call or visit in due course but it won't be considered an emergency so it may take awhile. It really is nothing to worry about since they simply come, visit the daycare, talk to you. This is a good time to talk about the child's behaviour in general, school complaints, etc. the parent may not have made them aware of.

    The good that might come out of this is that the child/family will get some help in dealing with the child's anger issues and lack of social skills.

    But for now do nothing. Print out the email from the parent so you have a hard copy just in case something happens to your computer but do not delete the email from your computer.

  4. #4
    Euphoric ! mimi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    555 Times in 413 Posts
    Firstly, take a deep breath. Remind yourself that you have done nothing wrong and keep reminding yourself of it everytime you feel anxious. Continue with your business and advertising. You do not need get a lawyer unless you feel better with that level of reassurance. If the parents were serious in taking action they would be directed to children's aid who would take a report and investigate. That would most likely result in a visit to your home and a chat with you. Have you ever been reported to children's aid before, personally or business wise? If not do not be too concerned as every report to c/a must be investigated and you don't have a history with them.
    Has the parent of the other dc child you care for ever witnessed this boys behaviour? Don't say anything to them, but document this childs behaviour issues in your home and any correspondence you have had with the parents. Remember, his teacher has the same issues with him. Just prep yourself mentally for questions that may come.
    That being said, this could just be a nasty scare tactic and they will not proceed. It is awful how they are trying to make you feel but don't let this situation dictate your life. You have had a shock this morning and you have been frightened. Now think confidently and rationally and let them bring it on if they want to as you have done nothing wrong. Please keep us posted....this could happen to any of us.

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  6. #5
    Expansive... Other Mummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    180 Times in 130 Posts
    Breathe. Don't panic.

    Mimi and Playfelt had some great advice here. And yes, this could happen to any of us. Downside to this field.

    I seriously don't think anything will become of this either. What are the parents going on? I cannot see a lawyer taking this on. It's ridiculous!

  7. #6
    You must document, document, document! their claims will be unfounded but think back to any incidents this child has had since in your care...try to think of dates as well....don't panic.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    2 Times in 2 Posts
    Thanks everyone for the encouragement and words of support.

    I have already printed off every email I sent the parents regarding care and behaviour. This child was quite the handful. Each and every timeout resulted in a email to the mom. Very happy I kept all those emails.. ( Sometimes twice a day)

    I also spoke to my nephew who is a police officer and he in turn spoke to his sargaent who indicated that if the parents did not contact the police immediately then, there is not much the police can do, and if they had contacted the police I would have been questioned already. Anything to do with a child at/in harm is taken very seriously.

    They are welcome to call Children's Aid. I am already on record with them. My husband and I applied to be foster parents and its a long process but they certainly know me and my home.

    Being a provider and a mom I know kids get bumps/bruises and scratches with or without watching the child 24/7. I have no doubt this child scratched himsel f in his fit.

    All I can do is wait and see but I do feel better reading your replies. Thanks again for that
    I am not sure what a lawyer would do if they went to one. I am not going to worry about getting one until there is a reason to do so.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    117 Times in 76 Posts
    At this point it's best to not discuss this any further with the parents and get your home ready for a visit.

    I think you got caught up into a few dynamics you may not have been prepared for. First, taking a child who has been cared for by a grandparent often doesn't work out. Nobody on the planet wants you to be happier than a grandparent. Going from grandparent care to group care is like going from one end of the earth to the other. It would be a rare kid who could adjust from the permissive environment where they rule the home to a home where a stranger adult rules and the child's position in the home is one of many. The child showed you clearly what happens when his environment didn't allow him to be the King.

    Also, there are some families who use free grandma care for a long time and when grandma surrenders and refuses to keep doing the free the family lays in wait for an opportunity to show grandma that SHE is not protecting her young and doing what is best for her grandbaby because the parents REALLY want the free granny care back. Often the catalyst to get grannie back on the free IS a claim of physical abuse towards precious. So ANY altercation or injury will be enough fodder to get the parents to convince granny that only SHE can care for and protect precious in their absence.

    You may have unwittingly gotten in the mix with that. For them to pull the kid immediately shows that they DO have options for his immediate care. That would be free granny.

    Next... NEVER take a kid with violence in their behavior. Unfortunately todays parents and providers believe that children getting physical is "normal" child hood behavior so the end game is just to work on it. We aren't allowed to exact ANY kind of real discipline so the result is that we have kids that are comfortable getting physical with us, our property, our kids, and the day care kids knowing full well that we can't do a single thing other than giving them words as a consequence. If we do time out they have the opportunity to fight all the way to and from time out and refuse to do the time out. That time when you are trying to give a consequence puts you on the fry for an accusation should an injury or a child's perception of your behavior bring into question what YOU did during the discipline.

    Also.. NEVER admit to ANYTHING regarding what "could" have happened when you didn't see it. Your explanation of the child's shirt put you as much at risk as the child's allegation that you hurt him. You have basically said you didn't see anything but the kids were rough housing enough to stretch out a shirt. That means you weren't watching and that will land you in more issues.

    I would also NOT discuss the days before hour time out. That will also land you with consternation from cps and could ultimately give you a founded case. The current public mindset is that time out should AT MOST be a minute per age. When you get into an hour you can have the worker evaluating it believing it is excessive.

    The only thing that is really safe to discuss is that the child's behavior resulted in you needing to give the child his own adult. If the child needs their own adult and you don't have an adult for him then you can declare safely that you can't provide the care the child needs.

    The child throws toys at the younger kids. In order to stop the child from hurling heavy toys you must provide him his own adult to stand between him and the kid he is throwing it at.

    If the child refuses to go to time out you have to provide an adult to sit with him and one to one him for his four minutes.

    If the child refuses to do self cares he needs his own adult.

    If the child refuses to clean toys he needs his own adult

    Get the picture? You use "needs his own adult" for EVERYTHING. Then the question becomes "can the parents provide his own adult AND pay for his slot in care?" That way you put the child's "needs" on THEM.

    Never ever keep a kid that will fight an adult. If he struggled even slightly away from me when I was hand walking him from point a to point b I would have immediately called his parents and told them he is fighting the directions I gave him and he needs to be picked up immediately. I will not put my hands on a chlld who is doing resistant counter moves while I'm propelling him forward. The chance for injury (scratches) is too high and puts me at too much risk.

    It IS getting to the point where we aren't allowed to do ANY ANY ANY kind of discipline other than redirection words and giving a child his/her own adult. Some states in the US are banning time out for under three's AND some are banning it all together. As time goes on and we get more and more kids who can't be disciplined in ANY way... we will see more violence and more accusations. Today is the day you know you can't say NO to a kid and expect ANY kind of compliance if the child disagrees with your no. That kid GETS to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Either you can offer that in your home or you can't. If you can't offer that then he should have been gone after the first act of defiance or violence he showed you.

    Lastly the shirt stretch out most likely occured by him bringing his knees up to his chest and pulling the shirt over his knees repeatedly. That could have happened at your house or during a school time out. When kids are left with NOTHING to do during time out they will use their clothing as a toy or something to amuse themselves. At four he is old enough to bring his knees up and pull the front of the shirt over his knees and stretch.

    Good luck and do NOT speak of this again to the parents. They have told you that they WILL give further accusations with their line: While we are not accusing you of anything at this point, they are really saying "we are hitting up granny for her to get back on the free gran plan. She's okay with it today but should she say no to doing it tomorrow... or next week... we want to leave the door open to say words to you to get you to take the child back if we are in a bind." Since they don't know for SURE that granny will stick with it... they are keeping a slight opening in your door.
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  11. #9
    Euphoric !
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    239 Times in 191 Posts
    I don't have much to say that hasn't been said.... I am so sorry that this occurred. It is one of the hazards of what we do. No matter how awesome we are, Mom/Dad always believe little Johnny's story.
    I am glad to hear that you have documented everything. That will be huge if anything ever comes of this. Note that I said "IF"! I would continue on with your business. Advertise, and run as normal. The other parents don't need to know why he left. Try not to lose any sleep over it, hard as that may be. IF they end up taking it farther, I would consult a lawyer, just in case.
    Good luck, and prayers that this all blows over!!!

  12. #10
    Starting to feel at home...
    Join Date
    May 2012
    11 Times in 10 Posts
    I wouldn't stress too much over it at this point honestly. Wait and see if they do anything.

    Don't say anything to the parents of the other child in your care. If they ask, just say the family no longer required your services.

    Keep advertising, run your business as usual.

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