thanks everyone. Bright Sparks, I dont go in to her at all. I can usually tune it out or i put my headphones on and do my stuff but sometimes probably when i'm stressed out it just gets to me so I am constantly looking for a solution. Ultimately she needs the sleep so i want to find a way to get her on a good schedule. She is alone in my room which is as far away from the others as possible but she can be very loud. I have sound machines in each room but sometimes she still manages to wake the others. Its just been so inconsistent. as soon as I think something works it all changes. she is very pleasant even when she's tired from so little sleep. i'm all about consistency and i've probably changed methods too often with this one. Ive never had such a sleep problem and Ive had some difficult kids over the last 17 years. Thanks for all the support and i think i will stick to one plan and hopefully without the disruption from the holidays it will fall into place. Only problem is that in just under 2 months i am on vacation for 11 days and that might undo any progress.