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  1. #11
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    To add in my original question, The provider has 2 kids of her own. I would never consider reporting a provider unless I have all of my facts straight.
    Thank you so much for your passion in this topic, it is alarming to us all when this happens, both as a parent, and as a fellow daycare provider following the rules everyday.
    It is astonishing that parents do not know these laws and are 'okay' with seeing all the kids in the home with one parent.
    I will advise what the outcome is of all this.

  2. #12
    Euphoric ! Sandbox Sally's Avatar
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    Just for anyone who is uncertain -

    From the Ministry of Child and Youth Services website:

    "In the Province of Ontario, you may care for up to five children under the age of 10 years, in addition to your own children, at any one time. Any premises that exceeds this number must be licensed as a day nursery and meet all of the requirements as outlined in the Day Nurseries Act (R.S.O. 1990, c.D.2, O.Reg 262)
    As an informal caregiver, there is no restriction as to the ages of children that you may care for, under the age of 10 years of age (i.e. you may care for any combination of infants, toddlers, preschoolers and school-aged children) as long as you don't exceed five children, in addition to your own, at any one time.

    If you are a provider with a licensed Private Home Day Care agency there are some restrictions that must be adhered to, as outlined in the Day Nurseries Act. If you have children of your own that are under the age of six years, those children must be counted as part of the five children in care. If the agency places a child in your home that is over the age of 10 years, this child must also be counted as part of the five children in care. Of those five, the following restrictions apply:
    * two handicapped children
    * two children who are under two years of age
    * three children who are under three years of age
    * one handicapped child and one child who is under two years of age
    * one handicapped child and two children who are over two years of age but under three years of age"


    I'd encourage your friend to report her first, but let her know that if she doesn't, you feel compelled to do so yourself. I agree with the previous posters - if anything were ever to happen, this would come down on ALL of us. Sad, but true.

  3. #13
    Expansive... Judy Trickett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamaof4 View Post
    I know this can be a passionate topic. It is a tragedy when kids suffer and die.
    Please remain respectful
    I thought we WERE being respectful. No one is attacking anyone here. We all share a common sentiment - and that is quality, legal care for the children.

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  5. #14
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    Again, I think that the passionate responses bely only the fact that we all care so very much about the kids we care for. And that's a good thing!

    If indeed I knew for sure that she was in fact operating illegally, I would absolutely report her. 5 kids plus your own is a VERY reasonable amount of children to have under your care. In Alberta, our regulations are a little different and we aren't allowed to have as many as that. I understand that there are different scenarios, and we don't know ALL the details. But the fact is, those regulations are in place for a reason. I may be willing to bend the rules for ONE or TWO extra children, because my oldest children don't require my "care" anymore, but they still count in my ratios. But that is as far as I would take it. And even on those days, I usually get a second pair of eyes around, like my husband.
    We have to watch each others backs, but we also have to watch out for the kids most importantly and our industry as a whole.

  6. #15
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    I have to say that even as a new provider, I agree with what Judy said about being astounded at what goes on in some home daycares. Once I became a provider, other providers have told me things that have shocked me and made me glad that I no longer need to put my kids in daycare! Nothing so far that warrants reporting, but, for example, one provider told me that she has a schedule that she shows parents in interviews and then throws it back in the drawer and does not follow any of it in reality. To me that is absolutely wrong! You don't have to follow a "schedule" to be a good daycare provider (I'm talking about craft time, circle time, etc, all scheduled in), but you do have to be honest about what you are providing so parents can decide for themselves. This is just one example of the kinds of things I hear about already and so I wonder about the things they don't tell me that go on behind closed doors. If indeed, she is operating over her legal limit and this fact is established, then she should be reported.

  7. #16
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    I hope no one thinks I was attacking either? For me I respect and live by the rules as well. I do understand the stats and the bottom line is the childerns safety! I was just pointing out getting all facts before taking any type of action as that just wouldn't be cool!



    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Trickett View Post
    I thought we WERE being respectful. No one is attacking anyone here. We all share a common sentiment - and that is quality, legal care for the children.

  8. #17
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    I like the idea of talking to your friend and about the place you are in. Just as we would have to report a case of child abuse if we knew about it, there is an element of this story that is almost the same since it isn't just about the situation being against the law it is about whether the situation is safe for all the children. Ideally the complaint would come from your friend but barring that a complaint from someone not in the situation would also help to save relationships for those involved as in no hard feelings. Just hoping it doesn't damage the relationship you have with your friend.

    I may be wrong but I'll bet compared to other daycares in the area the price is extremely reasonable at this daycare. I could charge less per child too if I had more of them. Price so often dictates where a parent puts their child and not whether that is the best place for them.

  9. #18
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    I do agree that operating within the standards set out by the government is vital to avoid issues with insurance coverage and consequences for operating illegally. I do have to say though that when I started I worked with an agency. I decided to interview other day homes within my area that were checked by my agency to advise clients as to my preferred day homes for back up care. I was astounded at what I saw. The agency only required the premises to be safe and when I went they were not safe. The providers know within a week or so when the agency is coming by to check, and apparently I did not visit in that time frame. I left that agency within a month of this experience.

    There were providers that were neglectful with only a few children from what I saw. Exceptional care is not based solely upon numbers of children, but with the value system in place with the provider.

    There are many parents that have twelve children or more with one provider....mom. If mom is involved with the children and giving great care, all children are maintained well. I do think that the parent would be spread quite thin in the area of quality time with each child alone, but that does not mean any children are at risk of physical harm.

    I personally would not report any day home unless my child was in care there. What others do is none of my business and people's perceptions is also not my concern. How others view day homes based upon the behaviors of others is not something I can do much about. The dysfunctional thinking that creates one to group all day homes in the same category is not something I can fight against. I can try to change the status of every day home out there, but the thinking of individuals that groups all in the same category remains.

    What is my concern is that I operate legally, with strong values and that I am the best I can be. If I am concentrating on what others are doing, I am robbing myself of the most valuable resource I have to grow within my self and my business......emotio nal energy.

  10. #19
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    Hmmmm..... respectfully, Clep, I must beg to differ.
    I would never EVER report someone unless I knew ALL the facts, as I stated. But if I knew for sure that the children in someone's care were unsafe, I would absolutely not hesitate.
    You are right, many families have upwards of 10, 12 or more kids. And yes, mom or dad is the sole caregiver for them at many times day to day. But those families (most of them) do not have 10 or more 1 to 2 year olds in their care. And they are caring for their own children, not being entrusted with the wellbeing of someone ELSE's child. Many of those families have teenagers and preteens around, extra eyes on the little ones, even if they aren't "caring" for them.
    As I have said, in other posts, etc; being licensed, with an agency, having all kinds of paperwork or diplomas, DOES NOT necessarily equal quality care. I would turn a blind eye to someone bending the rules if it seemed as though the children were not the ones catching the short end of the stick. Hey, I have been over ratio on occasion! But I will never take more children than I feel is safe, no matter what the paycheque. It is each and every one of our responsibility to make sure that no kid is harmed while under care, because it hurts all of our credibility when that occurs.
    I'm not going to get wrapped up in whether someone is feeding the children whole food, or providing daily age appropriate activities, or even smoking when in their own home or some such thing. But if I feel like a child is going to be seriously injured or killed, then there is no way I could ignore that.
    In any case, we all have our opinions, and really it depends on the situation, right?? I think I will put my soap box back in the closet, where it belongs..... lol.

  11. #20
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    I am a provider in Ontario. You are allowed 5 who are NOT related to you. I can have 5 kids of my own and then take care of 5 and it is perfectly legal. Also you are incorrect in stating the ages that you are allowed. If you are a private home daycare you can have five 6 month old babies if you wanted to and that is also perfectly legal.
    I know the laws in Alberta are different as I have a friend who actually does have 5 kids of her own and does daycare as well and she explained it all to me before, but I forget what the different rules are.
    Learning through play

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