Tragedy at a home daycare in Vaughan, ON

[Sandbox Sally]

You think I should let it go? Yeah, but if I do, then everyone else should, too, right? Is there a reason that this message board gets so upset when people disagree or debate? Why should I let it go, but nobody else has to? Is it because I disagree with your stance?

Should I just ignore that data has been made up to support an argument? I think it's silly to claim that 80% of people are defrauding welfare when you have no evidence to support that. It completely negates the point of saying anything. If someone wants to have a rational discussion using facts, they should do so. It is irresponsible to make up data, and people should be called on it.

[Sandbox Sally]

It is interesting that you know all you need to know to judge the woman's entire life based on overhearing ten seconds of a phone conversation. My iPhone was free with my cell plan. Are you saying that people who have government subsidy shouldn't be allowed a cell phone?

[momofnerds]

what is your problem. Did you even read my post. Obviously you didn't but let me recap it for you. There was an article in the newspaper where *I* live and they did a write up on fraud on welfare, mothers allowence, disability... sorry I didn't keep the article to prove it to you.

so you don't care that someone would be happy that the goverment is taking money out of the middle class family and giving it to the poor because the poor people deserve it, thats exactly what this mother said. So I should give my hard earn money to that mother so she can have her iphone (I don't have a phone cause I can't afford it) and her smokes, while my dh has to go away from his family for work, ya that makes alot of sense.

I'm done on this.

[Sandbox Sally]

I don't even care if this post gets me banned from here. I am sick and tired of the narrow minded judgemental views of some of the posters here. People say outrageously hateful things here against those who live in poverty, and others sit back, nodding their heads and clucking their tongues in agreement. It's a little bit gross.

I pay taxes so that I can live in a country that has excellent social programs, including universal health care. If you lived in the USA, you would have people looking down their noses at you for having government subsidized health care. Don't you get it? Nobody wins when we turn against one another. I don't get angry or bitter when people use the excellent safeguards our society in Canada provides to us, nor am I suspect of every person who uses them. If you're on welfare, you shouldn't have a cell phone? Why not? How dare poor people have communication privilege, right? I don't have a land line - I have only a cell phone, and it is cheaper than my land line was.

This whole conversation started by a child dying in a daycare, possibly due to overcrowding issues, because some parents simply can NOT afford good daycare. But hey, that turned into a hateful conversation where people on this forum said that's THEIR problem for choosing the wrong partner, or having a child alone, or whatever other circumstances that they've found themselves in where they can't afford things other people take for granted. If you look at things through THOSE glasses, it's also your husband's problem that he works out of town, after all, shouldn't he just quit his job and go back to school?Or wait, shouldn't you all just suck it up, because you should have thought of that before you had kids? Really...think about what you're saying.

I am sorry that you are bitter. If you have a home daycare, you should probably get a phone. I promise that this woman isn't taking your husband's money. He would be taxed just the same whether she needed assistance or not.

You were not just commenting on what she said, you were commenting on her phone, her smoking and her parenting. I find it a little suspect that you know all you need to know from someone by watching them for a few minutes. I also have a hard time seeing you as a reliable narrator, since you've already shown that you fabricate stories to back up your opinion.

My problem is your obvious prejudice against the poor. I doubt that your local paper said that 80 percent of all welfare recipients are defrauding the government. I doubt that very highly. You are pulling facts out of thin air. If you don't want to be called out on it, don't post fabrications as fact. You used a fake statistic to back up your prejudiced views. That's not ok. I am sorry if people on this site think that people on public assistance are lower than them, but I tend to judge people for their bad behaviour, rather than their socioeconomic status.

[Momof4]

Sandbox Sally, I see what you are saying because I was the single Mom of 4 children who worked a full time job and a part time job to pay the rent, food, clothing and all necessities of a family of 5. It was sheer hell and I missed so much of my children's lives. I did everything I could to keep us off welfare but my children suffered for it and I suffered for it.

But then I went on (it was called Mother's Allowance in the 90's) to go to college for a few years and it was horrible, we couldn't survive on that income so I took a part-time job as well and with all of the college classes and working, you guessed it, I hardly saw my children again.

Now, I have heard people on forums complain about parents who never spend time with their children and dump them at daycare and it makes me cringe. Who are they to judge? And the line in this thread about choosing the wrong partner, well I chose ALL the WRONG men!

I see your point. I don't like it when people make judgements of others because nobody has walked in anyone else's shoes.

But Momofnerds overheard someone saying something that admittedly would have made my mouth drop open too. I'm against people smoking around children so that would have put the cap on it for me. I have neighbours sitting on their 2nd floor balcony right this minute smoking pot while my clients are arriving to pick up their children. I had the welfare neighbour who had nothing better to do with his time other than to smoke nonstop and party with his friends during the day and I'm lucky I didn't lose any clients. It was horrible. It's hard not to judge them!

But there are so many kinds of prejudice, racial, sexual preferences, prejudice against people who are overweight, poverty stricken, handicapped and so much more. It all makes me furious when people judge! I'm not picking a side, I'm trying to point out that we should all support each other. Isn't that why we are here?

[Sandbox Sally]

I feel like I offer lots of support on this board, and lots of people, yourself included, Momof4, have supported me, and I am grateful for that. I love many women that I've met on here, and some have become off board friends, too.

But...I am not just talking about momofnerds, nor am I just talking about the story about the woman momofnerds saw the other day. I am talking about this whole disgusting thread, where people do nothing to hide their hatred of the poor. It deeply upsets me, and I cannot sit and read it without saying my piece. I have as much right to state my case as everyone else. I won't let fake stats slide when they're being used to incriminate a vulnerable population. That's just wrong, sorry.

It's so upsetting to see the same tired old stereotypes being propagated here of all places, where we are supposed to be teaching the next generation to do better, yet the cycle of prejudice and closed mindedness continues. It's just so sad and disheartening.

In future, I will try to stick to daycare issues, but it's hard to stand by and watch sometimes.

[sunnydays]

I wasn't going to wade into these murky waters again...because it's like swimming upstream sometimes. People are set in their ways of seeing things and it is very difficult to change their minds...even through intelligent factual debate. We all make judegments...even those of us who think we are open-minded. But we should all be open to looking at things from another perspective...seeing things through another's eyes. We don't know what led up to that mother sitting and smoking at the park while talking about assistance on her iPhone. We don't know if she is mentally or physically ill, if she has been abused, if she was a foster child, if she had an abusive husband or father or mother for that matter, etc. Do any of these things mean she could not go on to lead a productive life? No...but the thing is, we don't know at what point in her life we have found her...we don't know ANYTHING about her. I would like to think that if my life ever crumbles around me and I find myself down in the dumps (it can happen to the best of us by the way) that I will have a system there to help me out and that I won't be judged left right and centre by self-rightous individuals who think this could never happen to them and that somehow it is my fault no matter what.

[mamaof4]

I am all for this discussion and debate- We are going to have different opinions- we are different people and we have different experiences etc.

Where I have an issue as a mod is the intentional stirring up of controversy. I am going to close this thread as we have veered way off topic but please feel free to restart this discussion in another thread. I think we all can learn a lot from each other.

Thank you.