Biting, hitting, not listening

Alright, I have two toddlers - one is almost 14 months and the other is 17 months tomorrow. They're the best of friends and do everything the other one does. This is a bit of a problem. I thought I knew how to discipline children, but it seems my tactics are not working with these two and I'm starting to wonder if I'm going about it all wrong.
Please note: the 14 month old is my son and doesn't respond to time outs yet. He just doesn't understand them. He is VERY strong willed and stubborn. My 17 month old SORT OF understands time outs, but I feel like he enjoys them. I sit him down and he just sits there. He really doesn't seem to care.

I'm feeling at my wits end.

My son bites, pulls hair and hits when he's frustrated or angry. He also likes to throw food off his table. When he bites, if fu**ing hurts. He bit my shoulder last night and I almost started to cry. He's never bitten another child like this, but he does bite a little. When he bites, I yell in pain, hoping to startle him but it doesn't work. Then I hold his face and say sternly, no biting and then put him down and refuse to play with him. Also, he is teething very badly right now, so I don't know if that has something to do with it. When he throws food off of his table, I grab his hands and say you do not throw food off your tray. Or your food stays on your tray. But he just laughs and then does it again while he's staring me down. I'm starting to feel a little bit like I'm raising a brat and this is NOT acceptable. My husband says it's a good thing that he challenges me like that because it shows he has the self confidence to be able to challenge me...doesn't make it any easier. I have this stare down technique that worked with my dogs lol and I do it sometimes with my son, and most of the time it works, but he stares me down in the process and his face is so friggen cute, sometimes I start to laugh. I try my absolute hardest to hide it, but it's SO hard!


My 17 month old listens a little bit better but he's still a challenge. He's starting to hit...in frustration, anger, and even sometimes because he fees like it. This morning he had a small shovel, walked up to my son and hit him in the head with it. No reason, just felt like hitting. I took the shovel away and held his hands and said no hitting. But 15 seconds later, he walked up to my son and wacked him again.
He's also throwing toys. And this kid has an ARM lol he threw a sand pale this morning, and almost hit one of the other kids in the head. Again, I take both his hands and look him in the face and say no throwing. At one point, when I was trying to scold him, he kept turning his face to look at the TV. I had to actually grab his face and make him look at me. He also still puts EVERYTHING in his mouth! Drives me crazy.

These two are CONSTANTLY fighting now. The thing is tho, my son can take it just as well as he can dish it. He rarely cries. The 17 month old on the other hand, will walk over and throw a toy at my son, my son will pull his hair and then the other boy will throw his head back and cry for like 5 minutes. To the point where I actually have to tell him to stop. And he stares at me while he's crying, like, arent you going to do something about this? Last week, I had to seperate them. My initial instinct is to let them hash it out, but then the 17 month old starts to cry. I don't know what to do!!

I feel like I have no control and I don't know if what I am doing is harmful or good. I am a first time mom and have no background education in child development. Sometimes, I raise my voice, not a yell, but a loud voice, because I feel like it's the only way they will take me seriously, but clealy that's not working. I just feel like when I sit there and say all nice, "please don't hit your friends" they're laughing in my face. It doesn't matter if I am nice, yell, freak out, take things away, put them in timeout, seperate them, scold, NOTHING is working!!

What is your experience with this sort of things and how do you deal with it?

When what your doing isn't working then stop doing it...
When your son starts throwing food then take all the food away and meal time is over. I have a 17 month old here that rarely throws anything anymore.
Have an empty playpen(or two) set up out of the way but still visible and when one of the children hits, bites, pulls hair ... In they go and ignore them. Don't allow the other kids to engage the child in the playpen. You need a mean face and a very firm voice and say "no hitting/biting/ect". I don't allow tv at my daycare(most kids get enough at home) so that is never a distraction here. I don't think staring a kid down is very effective. Actually I think it has the opposite effect. You are giving him exactly what he wants "your undivided attention". I'm sure the ladies on here will have lots of other suggestions and you will have to see what works best for the children in your daycare and your son

Ok heres the deal. It's not working ONLY because both these boys are not ready for the discipline you are using. (your instincts are correct, however for a child a little older) at their age, you are wasting your time doing "time-outs". They need ALOT of patience and ALOT of redirection. When a child bites, they should be told "NO!" in a stern voice, and then placed down on the floor. No longer give him the attention he was getting. although, sounds like his biting is due to teething? if so, give him a teething ring or something that is "okay" to bite to show him what to do when he wants to bite! however, if he is biting out of "anger" just tell him "no!" and place him in a spot, where he can be alone (not time out though)
When a child throws food and such on the floor while at the table, I will pick it up ONCE and place it back on the plate or in front of them and inform them, "no throwing your food, it stays at the table", if they do it again? they immediately lose their plate and food and are removed from the table. and I tell them while taking them from the table, why. "you throw your food on the floor, it means you don't want it". i know from your posts, you have the "natural" instincts required to discipline properly and do a good job, you've got the skills already, just remember these guys are right at the cusp of understanding the discipline you are ready to give, not ready for "time-out" but now is the time to dig down, find the patience, and begin the training. More of verbal reminding at this point, "no, thats not okay!" and "if you throw the food you lose the food" and stick to it...dont let him bite and not put him down, and dont let him throw his food and keep him at the table. they learn fast..if he loses his food when he throws it and gets put away from the table, it will only take a few more meals before he realizes you mean what you say,and he'll keep it on his plate. Just a phaze! by the time they reach two, if you do your part, they will be fine!

Thank you!

What do I do with the hitting? Just after lunch, my son was sitting on the toy car and the little boy wanted to get on. He started pushing and so my son pushed back and the kid fell. He started screaming at the top of his lungs and then smacked my son in the face, to which my son responded to scratching him in the face.

I tried seperating them and giving them seperate toys. But they love each other and they want to play together, they just don't know how to communicate. So then I tried sitting them down with the same toy, and I sat right beside them and I said, play together, abnd they did...for about 15 seconds then one of them kept trying to take it away. Ugh.

i know it's because they can't communicate, and like I said, normally I would let them hash it out on their own but the older one SCREAMS when he doesn't get his way. I thought I was going to freak out earlier. Like COME ON. When my son was sitting on the car, he was barely touching the kid when he was on the floor. I heard the screaming (I was cleaning the kitchen) and came running in and the kid was sitting on the floor and my son wasn't doing anything. Just sitting there. And the 17 month old was screaming. But it wasn't like a full-blown scream. It was bursts of screaming. I thought I was goign to lose it. Meanwhile, my 2.5 year old is sitting there like a perfect angel.

I think your expectations are too high cause one year olds aren't really capable of playing together. They are still at the stage of playing independently but along side other children and are not really capable of sharing or taking turns ..... That comes later around 2 . So try to have more then one ride on toy or give each child a handful of cars or blocks or give each child a handful of mega blocks .... Try putting them at the table in booster seats with some toys and that way they can't touch each other. I would try to redirect them to separate activities. Even alternating them at the table it will certainly make your day less stressful

i had two girls last year who were best friends/arch enemies at the very same time. It wasn't easy, they were attracted to each other yet argued and cried when they played. Alot of times, you do have to leave them at it alone, other times you need to intervene and "show them how to play", work on their heartstrings "it hurts ______when you hit him, makes him feel bad" "why dont you give a hug instead". Alot of times if there is a fight over something, the aggressor is asked to kindly give the toy to the other child. (against their will of course) then when they give it away, you can give them praise for being "kind to their friend" :)