New starter struggling to sleep

Howdy folks.

This isn't your typical post about a tough sleeper.

I have a new little boy aged 11mths who is in his third week now. He is a terrible sleeper for mum and dad and also at my place. I am sticking with my sleep training in the hopes that once he gets it here, it will spill over into home life.

I spoke extensively with mum & dad before he started and they let me know what was going on and what their routine is. He typically naps for an hour in the morning about 9/9:30 and then an hour in the afternoon around 12:45/1. At night he is down at 8:30/9 although its been 7:30 since he has been here and on a good night will sleep no more than 4-5 hours in one go. He never has and when they sleep train him at night he cries to the point of projectile vomit which occurs at least 4 or 5 times a week so they had to stop leaving him to cry it out. Mom is so exhausted now that at 3 am she brings him into her own bed just because she is running out of steam physically and mentally. He still doesn't sleep only dozes but at least she can get some more rest.

At my place the morning nap is not every day and its not at home now either since he started with me. But if he does go down because he is pale and lethargic which are his classic tell tales of being tired, he just screams for the hour. Sometimes constant sometimes intermittent. Afternoon nap he usually quiets down quickly but I think it's because he knows I won't get him up, but when I check on him, he is not asleep, just sat up, not playing or talking just sat there. He typically cries intermittently.He has sat for 3 hours one afternoon but he was quiet and at least having some downtime so I left him. He has occasionally fallen asleep but only for an hour which is better than nothing.

Now I understand that it's early days and his not sleeping and crying doesnt really bother me. Not that I don't care, but because I know that each child has to work through this settling in period at their own rate. Generally I have found that my dckids have just slept better at night at home if they dont sleep well here and eventually it just works itself out once they have transitioned fully. The fact that he doesn't sleep at night though has got me thinking.

My 10 yr old son was very similar and still is a terrible sleeper although we have things in place now to get him to sleep through but he seems to go through phases. Maybe some of you remember months ago maybe longer, me posting about how my son won't sleep more than about 4-5 hours per night. Well my son has a dual diagnosis as Twice exceptional with a learning disability, slow complex processing, poor working memory 7th percentile, and giftedness, non verbal reasoning IQ of 130+, 99.7 percentile. After his diagnosis and much research and specialist appointments I now know why he sometimes struggles sleeping and that this starts right from birth. Sleep disorders are more commonly found in gifted children than any other child and with a phenomenal increase found in boys. Some only need as little as 3 hours a night, which my son was getting at one point back to back nights with no change in his temperament or energy levels, where as some need considerably more sleep each night than the average 8-12 a child needs/gets. This for sure was an "aha" moment for me and while it didnt do anything to help me and my sleepless nights lol, it is definitly good to have some kind of explanation and I am forever greatful that I never took him to a sleep clinic, where this cause would have been missed and the high chance he would have been medicated.

I may be way off the bat here, but I wonder if this is the case with this little fella and many other children today. Giftedness and 2e kids are commonly misdiagnosed with adhd, od, OCD and other mood disorders. I keep in touch with all my families as the children leave me so I would be interested to see how things turn out.

Just a thought to get your brain going on this fine Monday morning :)

That's really interesting, I'd never heard of the connection between giftedness sleep. Thanks for sharing.

Just out of curiosity: along the ones of misdiagnosing, are there any telltale signs to look for, or tests to differentiate between giftedness/2e and the listed mood disorders?

2e kids nearly always get missed as the giftedness can very much carry the child through the LD and makes them blend in as the average kid and they are generally labelled as having adhd or badly behaved which couldn't be furthur than the truth. They generally never achieve anywhere close to the academic ability in school is the education system does not cater to their needs and does not have teachers trained to help these kids. The focus is always on what's wrong not what's right.

No standardized testing can diagnose a 2e child. Also each child is unique. 2e children make up less than 2% of the general population as far as statistics show. There's probably a tremendous amount more but as the increasing levels of misdiagnosed children rises, it's hard to say. My recommendation is to see a child psychologist and have a Psychological Educational Assessment carried out. They test over the course of many hours how a child's brain works. In Ontario every child is screened for giftedness in grade 4 unbeknown to them but again this is a standardized test. It will flag a gifted child and an LD child but not someone with both exceptionalities. My son scored gifted in two out of three and average in another so isn't flagged as gifted as they have to score high in all areas. I didnt find this out until he was in grade 5 and I asked. If a child is flagged as gifted the board puts the kid forward for a board paid psych ed assessment. I was very fortunate to have a friend who is an LRT tell me when my son was in grade 3 to have his assessment done privately if I could afford it incase he wasnt flagged. My son didnt say his alphabet until grade 2. I took him to oxford learning for extra support and they have a standardized test at intake for all kids regardless of age but in the report they outline the different scores for each section rather than lump it together into one score. They immediatly flagged his non verbal reasoning as he beat out everyone in the previous 5 years aged 3-18 with a perfect score in record time. I have had an LRT explain to me in Niagara board a child has to be gifted in all areas to be acknowledged as gifted. It's not the case in every board. Some recognize it and some don't. Fortunately in grade 5 I called a board meeting along with the school and explained that regardless of their policy on recognizing 2e or not, it didnt make my son any less 2e and by not enriching him they were letting my son down. Teachers should teach to a child's need not to one single model. The logistics of this are obviously complicated but its no excuse. If they could put my son into a single category such as adhd or autistic there would be a whole host of resources available to him and a guideline and outline on how to deal with him. It seems so many, too many people just brush these kids off and focus only on the negative, challenging behaviour which is actually a direct result of their understimulation in school and life in general.

Sorry went on a bit of a rant then lol.... As for the differences, they are very easy to see on the PSYCH ED assessment as kids with one exceptionality gifted or LD have 1 gap on the percentile scale between the average and what they are. A 2e child has 2 gaps.

A gifted child will most often have difficulties controlling their emotions. This is a very common trait in nearly all gifted children. I would personally think that a tell tale sign would be an exceptionally clever child, way above average not just a child who is a bit early to learn things, paired with behavioural issues at a young age outside the norm would be a good indicator of 2e. That's just my guess based on my experience and research.

I recently sent a dcg off to JK and am pretty confident she is gifted. She was making full sentences at 15 months and could understand what you were saying to the degree that you could have a conversation back and forth with her. Extremely bizarre at the time as it was like talking to a 10 year old but I just got used to it. She also has photographic memory which is often misunderstood. Her strength is audio and her long term memory is incredibly sharp so I am thing that the visual aspects coming up now too. However, she could not make eye contact with anyone she didnt know without having a full body melt down and anxiety attack from about age 2 1/2. So when she met new people for the first day I worked with her to get to a stage where she new she did not have to talk to anyone or look at them if it made her uncomfortable and then she was calm. The 2nd meet and she was absolutly fine and like best friends with them. Out in the stroller I have had to firmly ask people to not touch her, like pat on head or grab cheeks, and not talk to her. You see her hyperventilate and get very anxious. So this is what I mean when giving you an example of giftedness. While she hasn't been formally diagnosed yet, I would bet anything that she gets flagged before she even gets to grade 1 but she is a great example of the emotional instability of a gifted child. That in itself could even show up was 2e down the road. While gifted children are supported in the area that they excel in, it is just as equally important to support their emotional needs.

Sorry for being so long winded but wanted to give you some background and examples.

No thanks for the response. It's really interesting. I haven't had any experience with it, so I was really just wondering for the sake of curiosity.
I'm glad you were able to at least get in touch with the board at school to try to help your son. Did they decide to do something for him, or did you have to seek help somewhere else?

Wow, thanks bright sparks. Really fascinating to read, especially since I have a very intelligent 21/2 girl who suffers anxiety in the company of new persons and does not like to be touched unless she is very comfortable with someone. With me she is relaxed and I am in awe of the intelligence that comes forth when she is calm. Thanks for the insight

@2cuteboys...It's a constant battle to be honest. A typical school year starting with a new teacher seems to start with an IEP coming home for me to sign when we should be having a meeting so I always respond with a request for a meeting although last year and this year within the first week or two I ask for the meeting otherwise it can be October before I here anything which means that its likely that nothing has been put into place in the classroom, and already you may have lost any chance with my son as he withdraws and detaches from everything. This is actually a great example of a misdiagnosis as this is a big indicator of ADD. His Psychologist who assessed him very specifically write in his report that he is absolutly not ADD and explained the causes of his withdrawal. Already this year my son has had no newsletter, or class schedule and one of his requirements is for him to know what's going on and when. My son freaks out if he doesn't know he is going to the dentist with plenty of notice. He needs to know what's going on. Also a daily journal asking him to write for 20 minutes which quite frankly is challenging for him has been sent home with no note to me on any accommodation for due date or time...so as you can tell, each year it's anyone's guess what the teacher will be like and how they will work with us. By the time we have an actual meeting and put things in place, its nearly Xmas. In the new year I go in to check if things are being enforced, which typically only a portion is. My biggest issue is enrichment. Entering Grade 6 my son is Grade 8 level in Math and they do there best to not enrich him with every excuse you can imagine. I looked at a gifted math program but unfortunately they do not cater to 2e children and it was an absolute disaster and tearful experience for both him and myself. I have however found a summer residential camp for a week in Colorado which is gifted and has different pathways depending on area of interest and they can support a 2e child. Not all of them but I checked this summer and sent over his Psych Ed Report and they said they could with him as all of their teachers are trained in Special Ed so that's what I'm saving for now in the hopes of giving him a great experience which will push him more to his limits instead of understimulating him like school.