Epic Tantrums

Good morning Ladies!

Firstly I would like to thank everyone here for their opinions and advice. It's so nice to have somewhere to discuss things.

Today I am looking for advice regarding my dhb. I posted previously when he started in my care in August. He is a very angry 4 year old. I almost terminated care but we worked through it and slowly he started having more good days than bad. Well, now i have my second dayhome kid (and 2 of my own) but this boy is extremely jealous and has started having epic tantrums.

On Friday he had the worst ones ever. My daughter got an award at school that day so I took the kids to watch. DHB wouldn't behave with my son so I went to have him sit on the other side of me and he threw himself to the ground, flailed around and sobbed uncontrollably. I managed to calm him down so we could watch the award and then we left right after.

Later that afternoon he refused to eat his snack. He sat at the table complaining. After quite awhile sitting I told him it was time to get our boots and coats on to go and pick up my daughter, he then started yelling that he was going to eat now. I told him that he would need to wait now until after we got back. The kid refused to move. I went to lift him off of his chair, he then threw his 54lbs down out of my arms, sat on the floor and started yelling that I pushed him off his chair. I told him that I didn't and would never push him. He got louder and insisted that I was mean and pushed him. I had to carry him to the door and he wouldn't help me put his boots or coat on, he just kept making whiney noises. After 5 minutes in the van, he got over it and acted like there was nothing wrong.

I had been giving him time outs but now he goes to time outs himself after small issues with sharing etc. I then tell him that he isn't in a time out and he cries that he is and tells me that I am mad at him. He then won't leave the spot for sometimes 10 minutes. when I actually do give him a time out he cries for 10 minutes, I speak with him and he walks away happier than happy. I'm sure that it is all for attention but not sure what my next move should be. It's getting exhausting. And he's 4 having 2 year old tantrums.....sigh

Gahhh, this is why it is so important to take control of your child when they are cute and tiny. Eventually they grow up to be big and not so cute, and after that they are bigger and stronger than us!

Is it purely behavioral or could there be some sort of underlying condition (autism spectrum, learning disorder, ADHD etc). If it is just plain learned behavior from home then your response will be somewhat different than if you suspect he has bigger issues.

If you can figure out the why behind his self time outs go from there. If he is doing it to manipulate you into giving attention then completely and totally ignore the time out so he doesn't walk away having won. If he is doing it because he has learned that he has done wrong and that is what he needs to do then acknowledge the fact he has learned this, give quick praise then move on.

Is the child just overwhelmed and out of control without the ability to contain his emotions? Or is he lying on the floor tantruming because he is in control? If he is out of control maybe figure out how to teach the skills he needs to express and voice those emotions. If it is just because he isn't getting his way and he is used to getting his way then it is so much harder for you. He is 4, it's not like you can just carrying him and strap him in a stroller.

One thing I would say is if he is tantruming and not helping to get dressed when you need to do a school pick up then you carry him to the car with no coat or boats and strap him in. Until it is frigid outside he does not NEED his outside layers. The car will warm up soon enough. You just give more attention by wrestling him into his clothes.

If he is doing this all for attention then he needs a consequence when you return. Voice the consequence when you leave. Voice it again as you approach home. It can be a boring snack while the others get cookies and treats, missing out on a fun activity. Something that will mean something to him. He will flip out, but eventually he will learn that he loses out on fun things when he makes you have to drag him along because he is having a tantrum. He is 4...he will learn this soon enough.

Again, this really sucks for you. With 2 yr olds this behavior is often understandable and while it sucks to have to work through it they are 2 so you can at least be understanding of it. When it is a 4yr old it is just annoying. He should have learned long ago that lying on the floor refusing to get dressed doesn't win him anything.

I feel so bad for you! How exhausting that must be!

If he's 54lbs and (correct me if I read this wrong) wrenching himself out of your arms when you attempt to pick him up/move him, I would stop doing that right now. From now on, do not try to physically move him at all. Either he or you are going to get hurt.

When it's time to do something, tell him what's happening/ask him to do whatever it is, and then walk away and carry on with the others. No talking, no coaxing, no attention whatsoever. You've stated what you would like to happen, so it needs to appear like you expect him to do it.

ie. "OK everyone, it's time to put on our coats and shoes to go to the school" and then walk over to the door and start helping the others who are there to get ready. Once you are all ready, stand at the door and wait for him. Ignore the kicking and screaming, maybe sing a song or play a game at the door with the others while you wait for him etc. Eventually when he realizes that he won't be getting any attention for not coming, he should just come over and do it. You will probably need to give yourself A LOT of time the first few times you do this.

For eating, maybe a timer? "Ok everyone, we have fifteen minutes for snack. I'm going to set the timer to help remind us." When the timer goes off, clear the plates. Again, don't respond to any of the kicking and screaming. Or say "I'll be happy to talk to you when you are standing still and using your normal voice"

How are the parents? Actively involved? Or the shrug-he's-four type? Get them on board. Tell them he refused to come get ready and when you tried to bring him to the door he flipped out of your hands and accused you of hurting him. Tell them since that is happening, you will no longer be able to bring him to the door, so you will expect him to listen to verbal requests. Full stop. Tell them that if after (insert your chosen time frame here) he is still refusing to follow verbal requests and is consequently negatively impacting your days and not allowing you to attend to your responsibilities, you will have no choice but to terminate care.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but seriously, he's four. If there are no underlying special needs (ASD, ADHD, etc), there is absolutely no reason at all for a four year old to behave like that on an ongoing basis.

Thanks for the advice ladies. I am going to go the route of ignoring his meltdowns and making things super exciting for the other kids who are behaving. I try to talk to the parents about his issues. I am almost 100% certain that he has ADHD but they don't want to hear it. This boy CANNOT sit still, at all for even 2 minutes. At quiet time he bounces all around the living room, hanging off of furniture, different positions on the floor. He physically can't sit still.

Last night at pick up I tried to bring up his temper tantrums to mom. As I started talking she slowly backed down the stairs until I would have to yell for her to listen. So much for that. I never get to finish any conversation with her because she does this. Dad just interrupts me and says something quick to the boy and then leaves with me standing there mid sentence.

I wish that I had more people interested in my dayhome, I really do need to terminate him. For now, he is my only consistent kid.

The mother backs away slowly until she can't hear you talking to her and the dad just cuts you off by talking to his child and ignoring you? The poor child. How will he ever learn how to behave with parents acting like that?

If you truly believe the child has ADHD then your strategies will have to be very different. Children with ADHD cannot contain their emotions or understand your reactions the same as typically developing children. They just won't learn to smarten up if you walk away and ignore them. They need to be taught the skills needed and they need consistent care at home and daycare and school.

I don't know what to suggest if home is acting like that, they clearly are not seeing the light. Just do as you can to make it through your day as best you can. Hopefully school (when he starts) will have the resources needed to help him and get the parents on board.

when the mom backs away say " oh sorry but i need a few minutes of your time can you please come back so i don't have to yell" if the dad walks away say the same thing " oh sorry but i wasn't finished can you please come back so we can talk about this" your going to have to stand up to them and not enable their behaviour

I have an interview tomorrow for 2 FT!!! so fingers crossed that it woeks out and then if dhb behavior continues I can just terminate and replace.

I would never keep such a misbehaved child, especially if I need to get to school to pick up another child...one day he will throw such a temper tantrum that it will make you late getting to the school...what then?:no:

I am really hoping for the best for tomorrow as I really need someone to replace him first. He dropped the f bomb yesterday too. He has zero respect for adults. He gets along great with my son, and so far I have been lucky that my son does't follow with this behavior. I'd like a nice group of kids that I can take on outtings and field trips this summer. I once tried to take my son and dhb to a drop in library program and we had to leave part way through because he wouldn't sit in the circle and started talking and climbing on top of the cupboards.

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Originally Posted by Shannie

Last night at pick up I tried to bring up his temper tantrums to mom. As I started talking she slowly backed down the stairs until I would have to yell for her to listen. So much for that. I never get to finish any conversation with her because she does this. Dad just interrupts me and says something quick to the boy and then leaves with me standing there mid sentence.

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That is so sad. That poor kid.

I second the suggestion that you call her back to listen. Or if you aren't comfortable doing that, put it all in writing and have her sign and return by the next day, acknowledging that she's read and understood it's content?

I hope your interviews pan out and you can replace this child. I've had children in the past that I wasn't able to take places because of their behaviour. Such a "trapped" feeling and so frustrating.