Parents on government subsidy

I too have known people who have used and abused the system and gotten far more out of government assistance than they probably should have. I alos agree that if you have a child, that they are your financial responsibility. However, and this is a BIG however, what we would end up doing by not offering subsidized daycare to people who need it would simply compound the problems that we already have. People would stay home and collect welfare cheques rather than work and put their kids in daycare, or they would put expenses on credit cards and later declare bankrupcy, or they would put their kids in a warehouse type daycare that is cheap but also overcrowded and completely unstimulation for the kids. I read a study once that found for every $1 that the government (or other organizations) spends on improving the education and development of children under the age of 5, we end up saving $6 in later social programs, jails, foster homes, etc. I find it nauseating that parents would have the gov pay for childcare so that they can sleep, drink, spend time with friends, whatever. But on the other hand, I would much prefer that child be with me in a safe and nurturing environment than warehoused somewhere, or left alone, or worse. It comes to a point where it's not about punishing the parents anymore, it's about helping the kids. Just my opinion.

This is a good debate to have, so I hope everyone understands that I am not attacking Judy (I respect and agree with much of what she posts about daycare and her considerable experience), but simply want to bring this discussion up so we can all have our say. So, to respond, if you believe that we should get rid of publicly funded health care, then I guess that if one of your children is diagnosed with cancer for example, you would not mind paying the thousands or perhaps hundreds of thousands to pay for treatment and then if you ended up losing everything (your home, savings, etc) because of these massive bills, you would also not mind that there is no social assistance available to help you out because we have scrapped that as well. I do know that people abuse the system...some people will abuse any system. However, there are many more people who genuinely need help so that they don't end up on the streets raising there kids in a way that will almost certainly lead to crime...which you will no dount later complain about. Then we will need lareger prisons to lock them all up...and you won't mind paying for that because it's better than paying for welfare, health care...or heaven forbid, daycare! I don't agree that most people work because they want more things....I believe most parents work because they have to in order to support their families as the cost of living is high and the cost of raising children is high...much higher than in our grandparents' generation. Yes, we are a society of consumers and it has gotten out of hand, but in order to put a roof over your kids' heads and provide food and post-secondary education etc, most families need to have two parents working and not all moms are cut-out for being daycare providers nor have the set-up for it as we on this forum do. And it's a good thing they don't because we'd all be out of work as well! Also, if, as you suggest, one parent stays home to raise the kids (I do think this is good for the kids if a family can manage it, don't get me wrong) that cuts out almost half of our labour force. We are already facing a labour shortage...so if half of parents stay home and furthermore, many people do not have children at all because of a lack of government support, we are going to be in serious trouble!

well put Waterloo day mom!

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Originally Posted by kangaroomama

This is a good debate to have, so I hope everyone understands that I am not attacking Judy (I respect and agree with much of what she posts about daycare and her considerable experience), but simply want to bring this discussion up so we can all have our say. So, to respond, if you believe that we should get rid of publicly funded health care, then I guess that if one of your children is diagnosed with cancer for example, you would not mind paying the thousands or perhaps hundreds of thousands to pay for treatment and then if you ended up losing everything (your home, savings, etc) because of these massive bills, you would also not mind that there is no social assistance available to help you out because we have scrapped that as well. I do know that people abuse the system...some people will abuse any system. However, there are many more people who genuinely need help so that they don't end up on the streets raising there kids in a way that will almost certainly lead to crime...which you will no dount later complain about. Then we will need lareger prisons to lock them all up...and you won't mind paying for that because it's better than paying for welfare, health care...or heaven forbid, daycare! I don't agree that most people work because they want more things....I believe most parents work because they have to in order to support their families as the cost of living is high and the cost of raising children is high...much higher than in our grandparents' generation. Yes, we are a society of consumers and it has gotten out of hand, but in order to put a roof over your kids' heads and provide food and post-secondary education etc, most families need to have two parents working and not all moms are cut-out for being daycare providers nor have the set-up for it as we on this forum do. And it's a good thing they don't because we'd all be out of work as well! Also, if, as you suggest, one parent stays home to raise the kids (I do think this is good for the kids if a family can manage it, don't get me wrong) that cuts out almost half of our labour force. We are already facing a labour shortage...so if half of parents stay home and furthermore, many people do not have children at all because of a lack of government support, we are going to be in serious trouble!

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I lived in the United States for a LONG time. So, unlike most Canadians who think NON-Universal health care is a bad thing I actually have FIRST hand experience with it.

I have been on both side of the fence and I would take the U.S. way in a heartbeat.

You know, in the U.S. they give you very little welfare and most of it is paid DIRECTLY to your housing corporation. Wanna buy groceries....fine... .you get a debit card type thing. Wanna buy milk and eggs...fine...it goes through the scanner at the cash register. BUT, when you buy chips and pop the cashiers system flags it and you have to PAY for it with CASH instead of your food stamps card. It is VERY difficult to abuse the welfare system in the states. And, as a result people actually WORK for a living.

I worked with MANY Mexicans who didn't have a single dime when they moved to that country and because they were HARD workers they managed to feed and house their families with NO government assistance - NONE! So, yes, it CAN be done.

Non-Universal health care?? Here's the thing - if you have a JOB then you 99% of the time will have HEALTH care because of that job. No job - no health care. And this is why more people actually KEEP their jobs. It's win-win for everyone.

I just don't believe that those who sit on welfare or use the system at LENGTH (as in year after year or, in many cases, generations) really WANT to work. You know, when I lived in the states I had a very high management job. EVERY day, when I went to lunch and stopped at a traffic light some vagrant would approach my car for change. And EVERY single day I gave at least ONE person my business card and told them, "You come see me - I WILL give you a job". And do you wanna know how many people after years and years and YEARS of me giving out those cards ever came to see me about a job???? NOT ONE!

My opinions are not just born from ignorance; they are born of experience.

I also had the unfortunate situation of a loved one falling VERY ill (spent 7 days in ICU) while living there. And you know what?? The REASON he literally nearly lost his LIFE was because OUR system, here in Canada, is so screwed up that he was on a waiting list. Yes, he came to visit us and nearly DIED from the same damn ailment that we Canadians did NOT have enough in our Health (sick) care coffers to take care of! And you know what?? Within TWENTY-FOUR hours of his arrival to the ER in the states he got a CAT scan, and MRI, and a surgery where they flew in the BEST surgeon in that field from Massachusettes. He lived BECAUSE of the way they handle medical care in the United States, not despite it. If that had happened to him while in Canada I have NO doubt he would have died.

I've BTDT. I KNOW how both systems work. And I will take the U.S. system of every man for himself any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

I lived in the United States for a LONG time. So, unlike most Canadians who think NON-Universal health care is a bad thing I actually have FIRST hand experience with it.

I have been on both side of the fence and I would take the U.S. way in a heartbeat.

You know, in the U.S. they give you very little welfare and most of it is paid DIRECTLY to your housing corporation. Wanna buy groceries....fine... .you get a debit card type thing. Wanna buy milk and eggs...fine...it goes through the scanner at the cash register. BUT, when you buy chips and pop the cashiers system flags it and you have to PAY for it with CASH instead of your food stamps card. It is VERY difficult to abuse the welfare system in the states. And, as a result people actually WORK for a living.

I worked with MANY Mexicans who didn't have a single dime when they moved to that country and because they were HARD workers they managed to feed and house their families with NO government assistance - NONE! So, yes, it CAN be done.

Non-Universal health care?? Here's the thing - if you have a JOB then you 99% of the time will have HEALTH care because of that job. No job - no health care. And this is why more people actually KEEP their jobs. It's win-win for everyone.

I just don't believe that those who sit on welfare or use the system at LENGTH (as in year after year or, in many cases, generations) really WANT to work. You know, when I lived in the states I had a very high management job. EVERY day, when I went to lunch and stopped at a traffic light some vagrant would approach my car for change. And EVERY single day I gave at least ONE person my business card and told them, "You come see me - I WILL give you a job". And do you wanna know how many people after years and years and YEARS of me giving out those cards ever came to see me about a job???? NOT ONE!

My opinions are not just born from ignorance; they are born of experience.

I also had the unfortunate situation of a loved one falling VERY ill (spent 7 days in ICU) while living there. And you know what?? The REASON he literally nearly lost his LIFE was because OUR system, here in Canada, is so screwed up that he was on a waiting list. Yes, he came to visit us and nearly DIED from the same damn ailment that we Canadians did NOT have enough in our Health (sick) care coffers to take care of! And you know what?? Within TWENTY-FOUR hours of his arrival to the ER in the states he got a CAT scan, and MRI, and a surgery where they flew in the BEST surgeon in that field from Massachusettes. He lived BECAUSE of the way they handle medical care in the United States, not despite it. If that had happened to him while in Canada I have NO doubt he would have died.

I've BTDT. I KNOW how both systems work. And I will take the U.S. system of every man for himself any day of the week.

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as a current US resident, this may have been the way it was in the past but now, if a family is on food assistance they get an allotted amount on a card every month and it can be used for all food crap food and healthy food alike. Those benefits cannot be used for alcohol though.

There is another program called WIC- "women infants and children" that has coupons for specific products on each and those benefits can only be used for the specific products- this program covers things such as eggs, milk, cheese, carrots, and beans and allows very little room for flexibility.

There are millions of people bilking the system now. It gets depressing and makes it harder for those who are in genuine need to get help

Thank Goodness others feel the same....it especially ticks me off that they all wear designer clothes, get their nails done weekly, and drive cars of the year. I dont understand why it is not harder for parents to get assistance, these days it seems like even people who make more then 50k are still eligible. Don't get me wrong there are people that are deserving of assistance, but if the goverment was a little more responsible with its money maybe our taxes would'nt be so high.
As well I dont like the baggage that tends to come with the families, they always seem to be the ones that make my day the hardest, early show up, late pick up ect. I now only take on full paying clients.
You could have them pay up front, Like on Monday morning, and If they dont have the money hey dont get the care. I have learned the hard way, and wont take on families if they dont agree to it.

Amen!!!!! Having to have been on disability for almost 8 years due to trying to manage a chronic pain among other things, I often get, why did you go back to work? The question is Why Not. The amount of abuse of social assistance abuse in all of its finger shows up on everyone of our pay checks. If people were made to work for what they get, then they would get themselves a job, instead of scrubing toliets at a local mall, or picking trash in a local park, as people in the staes have to do. Unfortunally the mentality know is, If I get fired I can always live on welfare. The same applies to families that abuse assistance for childcare. If they can not afford childcare, why not stay home with your children, and watch your neighbors children instead.

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Originally Posted by katherine mowat

Amen!!!!! Having to have been on disability for almost 8 years due to trying to manage a chronic pain among other things, I often get, why did you go back to work? The question is Why Not. The amount of abuse of social assistance abuse in all of its finger shows up on everyone of our pay checks. If people were made to work for what they get, then they would get themselves a job, instead of scrubing toliets at a local mall, or picking trash in a local park, as people in the staes have to do. Unfortunally the mentality know is, If I get fired I can always live on welfare. The same applies to families that abuse assistance for childcare. If they can not afford childcare, why not stay home with your children, and watch your neighbors children instead.

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As someone who has needed and used assistance for a legitimate reason, I would think that you would be a little bit more understanding about this issue. There are people who abuse it, absolutely, but what would you have done if you could not have gotten disability when you needed it? And when you say, if you can't afford childcare you should stay home and watch other kids...I really have to disagree strongly here because people who go into childcare just because they can't afford daycare and not because they have the patience, etc that is required for the job, are those that you hear about in the news who have shaken a child to death or let a child drown, etc. This is in no way good for our society or for the children who will be our future. Quebec recognized that children who have a good start to life do much better in school...that is why they started the subsidized care for all (although there are still issues with not enough spaces). I think we have to always be thinking about the children and the good of our society in general when we talk about these issues. Is it better for the kids (who have no choice) to say, well their parents shouldn't have had them if they couldn't afford them, and then leave them with no health care, welfare, food banks, daycare....to live in squalid conditions and most likely grow up angry and under educated to turn to crime? I fail to see how this benefits society.

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Originally Posted by Judy Trickett

I lived in the United States for a LONG time. So, unlike most Canadians who think NON-Universal health care is a bad thing I actually have FIRST hand experience with it.

I have been on both side of the fence and I would take the U.S. way in a heartbeat.

You know, in the U.S. they give you very little welfare and most of it is paid DIRECTLY to your housing corporation. Wanna buy groceries....fine... .you get a debit card type thing. Wanna buy milk and eggs...fine...it goes through the scanner at the cash register. BUT, when you buy chips and pop the cashiers system flags it and you have to PAY for it with CASH instead of your food stamps card. It is VERY difficult to abuse the welfare system in the states. And, as a result people actually WORK for a living.

I worked with MANY Mexicans who didn't have a single dime when they moved to that country and because they were HARD workers they managed to feed and house their families with NO government assistance - NONE! So, yes, it CAN be done.

Non-Universal health care?? Here's the thing - if you have a JOB then you 99% of the time will have HEALTH care because of that job. No job - no health care. And this is why more people actually KEEP their jobs. It's win-win for everyone.

I just don't believe that those who sit on welfare or use the system at LENGTH (as in year after year or, in many cases, generations) really WANT to work. You know, when I lived in the states I had a very high management job. EVERY day, when I went to lunch and stopped at a traffic light some vagrant would approach my car for change. And EVERY single day I gave at least ONE person my business card and told them, "You come see me - I WILL give you a job". And do you wanna know how many people after years and years and YEARS of me giving out those cards ever came to see me about a job???? NOT ONE!

My opinions are not just born from ignorance; they are born of experience.

I also had the unfortunate situation of a loved one falling VERY ill (spent 7 days in ICU) while living there. And you know what?? The REASON he literally nearly lost his LIFE was because OUR system, here in Canada, is so screwed up that he was on a waiting list. Yes, he came to visit us and nearly DIED from the same damn ailment that we Canadians did NOT have enough in our Health (sick) care coffers to take care of! And you know what?? Within TWENTY-FOUR hours of his arrival to the ER in the states he got a CAT scan, and MRI, and a surgery where they flew in the BEST surgeon in that field from Massachusettes. He lived BECAUSE of the way they handle medical care in the United States, not despite it. If that had happened to him while in Canada I have NO doubt he would have died.

I've BTDT. I KNOW how both systems work. And I will take the U.S. system of every man for himself any day of the week.

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I think it is easy to say "every man for himself" is best when you are born into privelege as I hazard to guess you have been. By privelege, I mean, white middle class English speaking etc. I agree that many immigrants here and in the US are much harder workers than anyone born here and that is why they can make something out of nothing and succeed. But how many people are falling through the cracks because they don't have the help when it is needed? What about those who have been laid off and have no insurance and then get sick...should we say "too bad...you should be working?" I do not disagree at all that many people are lazy and abuse the system...my point is that there are also many who really need help and helping them betters our society. Kids who have a good start in life with access to food, health care, education, grow up to be contributers to society instead of angry criminals. So, why should we pay for other people's poor decisions etc? Because the kids are our future and the more we invest in them, the brighter our future as a society is. I cannot believe anyone would say that the US way is better...crime is higher, poverty is higher, violence is higher and there are vast ghettos full of angry disillusioned youth. Is that better? Really? Well, I suppose as long as you are not living in the ghetto you can close your eyes to the problems and go about your rosy life, but I do not believe this will lead to a better future for anyone.

1) I don't have a job that includes medical benefits (luckily my husband does) but as a single person if I would not be able to continue working this job as I would have to pay medical expenses out of pocket

2) I don't agree that the cost of living is in proportion to what it was when our grandparents were growing up. We live in modest house, I drive an 18yr old car, and almost everything inside the house is used, and mostly gifts. My husband makes a good salary but nowhere near enough for me to be able to stay home with my kids if I were not taking in other kids as well. I do daycare from home so that we can pay the mortgage.

3) I have spent a lot of time volunteering in areas of the GTA and of the world where they do not have the luxuries that we do. I don't want to go off on a long speech here, but I have seen 8yr olds who walk their younger siblings home to an empty house every evening. I have seen 9yr old girls start hanging out with teenage gangsters because she is so desperate for attention. There was even a story in the news recently about a 9mnth old baby left in their crib with a stack of diapers and jars of baby food (the mother figured the baby had all they needed and went away for a few days). Simply handing out free money is not the answer, Judy is absolutely right. But I have seen children change after having children's aid pay to send them to daycamp for a week. I have seen homeless teenages cry when they get new glasses to replace their old ones that were stolen. There are people out there who abuse the system (I even know some personally) but there are also people, especially children, who given just the littlest bit of nurturing and support and guidance can make drastic changes in their own lives. The system absolutely needs to be revamped, but that does not mean that there are people out there who need it and benefit from it.