Tragedy at a home daycare in Vaughan, ON

With much respect (because I have a high degree of respect for you and for that matter, the other ladies on this forum...including the ones who I have opposite views from), I don't think this thread shouldbe shut down if people have things to add. I think everyone has been polite and stated their views...there hasn't been any name-calling or abuse. Many threads go off topic. Personally, if the turn a thread takes doesn't interest me, I just stop reading it and don't bother posting anything on it. This thread has nothing to do with the rude and disrespectful attack woman who was recently banned from posting. I know that we will all most likely have to agree to disagree, but does that mean we cannot have any healthy debate over controversial topics? For me, as long as everyone is being respectful, I take no offence at all to anyone stating views that are different from mine and I hope they do not take offence to me stating my opinions either. That's what it is to live in a democracy, a free country, where everyone has the right to discuss their opinions openly.

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Originally Posted by Momof4

Of course there are people abusing all systems in all walks of life, including welfare and social assistance. I'm so tired of phony, lying, abusive, horrible, backstabbing people, rich and poor.

Part of the reason I wanted to find a job where I worked out of my own home was so that I can cut those types of people out of my life and I'm doing a darn good job of that. I only work with the nicest people. I like this forum because it's filled with intelligent, supportive women. We're all working hard.

We got rid of the abusive poster and since then this thread has certainly gone off course from the original subject of the death at the daycare. I love it when people debate constructively without attacking each other and you ladies are doing a pretty good job of that.

None of us are experts on stats for the government so lets agree to disagree for now and put this to bed!

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Hi, this story is very sad but unfortunately will continue on unless we, as parents make sure, our children are safe! People that run a daycare in that kind of environment do it because of us not saying anything until a tragedy happens!!!...enough is enough we have a voice let s ear it.,it seems not to gossip about next door neighbour wife,husband ect... but to speak out about the daycare that has too many kids! come on!!!

Hi, this story is very sad but unfortunately will continue on unless we, as parents make sure, our children are safe! People that run a daycare in that kind of environment do it because of us not saying anything until a tragedy happens!!!...enough is enough we have a voice let s ear it! it seems ok to gossip about next door neighbour wife,husband ect... but when it comes to speak out about the daycare that has too many kids we keep it shut! come on!!!

oy.

I have a law degree. In the US that means I went to 4 years of college (BS) then 3 years of Law (JD) I also went on to get my LLM. I have 5 kids now, but when I graduated, my first job out of law school was a not for profit job that paid a whooping 27000 BEFORE taxes. Bearing in mind I had kids (2 at the time) and more than 50K in student loans (and that is LOW on the spectrum- I got a lot of scholarships went to public schools most law students end with more than 100k in loans). It would have been impossible to survive without help.

Now 7 years later, 3 kids later my husband is a firefighter, his income of 62,000 (before taxes) is supposed to care for us. The guy who is called to save lives and protect peoples homes.

The disparity between the rich and the poor has grown at an astonishing rate and makes it exceptionally hard for middle class people to survive- not living high either. I had to quit my job because he made more than I did, carries the benefits, and pension- in the US we have to pay for all of that ourselves. Which really means we piecemeal things together as best as we can.

Someone up thread said we as a society have the responsibility to care for the vulnerable. Who are more vulnerable than children?

The parts that are missing is finding a way for those on a low income to get some of the necessities at the same percentage as others such as only spending 30% of their income on rent. I get why the government claws back half of everything a person on welfare or ODSP earns but then we wonder why they don't bother. When you earn $200 a week and only have $100 to keep but then have to deduct the going to work expenses from that such as bus fare and a hair cut it becomes not worth it.

My daughter is on ODSP and the only way she can survive is that she lives in a subsidized apartment so that she only pays the $450 the government gives towards rent and shares to make it work.

I'm still waiting for momofnerds to come back to the thread and post the links to support her statement that 80% of welfare recipients are defrauding the system. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sandbox Sally

I'm still waiting for momofnerds to come back to the thread and post the links to support her statement that 80% of welfare recipients are defrauding the system. :rolleyes:

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our newspaper ran an article maybe last year about defrauding, it was interesting on how many people do it.

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Originally Posted by Sandbox Sally

I'm still waiting for momofnerds to come back to the thread and post the links to support her statement that 80% of welfare recipients are defrauding the system. :rolleyes:

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No need to stir up confrontation. You know there are no definitive stats out there which is part of the problem there is no being accountable for money received or money paid. Statistics are based on what is known and percentages deduced and well that sounds about right in the sense of a high number just like they say 80% of kids are cared for in private home daycare - no one knows for sure because that info isn't included in the taxes when parents claim and there is no accounting for kids cared for free by grandma whose parents work. Please just let it go.

ok, so on sat. I go to the park with my dd (her siblings didn't want to go with her) so as I'm sitting there, there is a mom with her 3 yr old ds. She was on her iphone. I had to bite my tongue at what she said.

she is talking loud enough that the other mother heard her too. this women starts laughing and goes on to say how she is getting extra money on her child tax credit. she continues to say how she needs the money because she she has no money in her bank to make it till the end of the week. (this part made me angry) she starts laughing and goes on to say "I'm glad they are taking money from the middle class and giving it to the poor because we need the money more than they do" omg, I so wanted to tell her off. The look on the other mothers face was priceless, she couldn't believe what she was hearing too.

then she continued her convo with a boat load of swear words and smoking her cigarrettes (my dd pointed it all out to me and she's 9) finally she left. I wanted to see where she was going (I live in a small town so its not like I couldn't find out) but really who brags about this stuff.

As a self employed person I know I have to tread carefully in any discussion about fraud in the sense that while I don't set out to commit fraud most of us at one time or another have claimed a questionable item or even an item we know is wrong such as a receipt for two books knowing one was being given as a gift to a relative but come three years from now in an audit the expense will look legitimate. We defend it sometimes by saying well it makes up for the things I can't claim because I don't have a receipt for them... does not make it right.

There is nothing simple about how the tax laws, welfare laws, ODSP laws, childcare subsidy laws are determined and administered and the interpretation of the laws can even vary from one caseworker to another. We know that all of these systems are 100% broken and if we were in the position of finding a loophole that allowed us an extra $50 some month it is wrong for us to say we would not be tempted to take it because if you were really in that situation you do not know how you would react.

You think I should let it go? Yeah, but if I do, then everyone else should, too, right? Is there a reason that this message board gets so upset when people disagree or debate? Why should I let it go, but nobody else has to? Is it because I disagree with your stance?

Should I just ignore that data has been made up to support an argument? I think it's silly to claim that 80% of people are defrauding welfare when you have no evidence to support that. It completely negates the point of saying anything. If someone wants to have a rational discussion using facts, they should do so. It is irresponsible to make up data, and people should be called on it.

It is interesting that you know all you need to know to judge the woman's entire life based on overhearing ten seconds of a phone conversation. My iPhone was free with my cell plan. Are you saying that people who have government subsidy shouldn't be allowed a cell phone?

what is your problem. Did you even read my post. Obviously you didn't but let me recap it for you. There was an article in the newspaper where *I* live and they did a write up on fraud on welfare, mothers allowence, disability... sorry I didn't keep the article to prove it to you.

so you don't care that someone would be happy that the goverment is taking money out of the middle class family and giving it to the poor because the poor people deserve it, thats exactly what this mother said. So I should give my hard earn money to that mother so she can have her iphone (I don't have a phone cause I can't afford it) and her smokes, while my dh has to go away from his family for work, ya that makes alot of sense.

I'm done on this.

I don't even care if this post gets me banned from here. I am sick and tired of the narrow minded judgemental views of some of the posters here. People say outrageously hateful things here against those who live in poverty, and others sit back, nodding their heads and clucking their tongues in agreement. It's a little bit gross.

I pay taxes so that I can live in a country that has excellent social programs, including universal health care. If you lived in the USA, you would have people looking down their noses at you for having government subsidized health care. Don't you get it? Nobody wins when we turn against one another. I don't get angry or bitter when people use the excellent safeguards our society in Canada provides to us, nor am I suspect of every person who uses them. If you're on welfare, you shouldn't have a cell phone? Why not? How dare poor people have communication privilege, right? I don't have a land line - I have only a cell phone, and it is cheaper than my land line was.

This whole conversation started by a child dying in a daycare, possibly due to overcrowding issues, because some parents simply can NOT afford good daycare. But hey, that turned into a hateful conversation where people on this forum said that's THEIR problem for choosing the wrong partner, or having a child alone, or whatever other circumstances that they've found themselves in where they can't afford things other people take for granted. If you look at things through THOSE glasses, it's also your husband's problem that he works out of town, after all, shouldn't he just quit his job and go back to school?Or wait, shouldn't you all just suck it up, because you should have thought of that before you had kids? Really...think about what you're saying.

I am sorry that you are bitter. If you have a home daycare, you should probably get a phone. I promise that this woman isn't taking your husband's money. He would be taxed just the same whether she needed assistance or not.

You were not just commenting on what she said, you were commenting on her phone, her smoking and her parenting. I find it a little suspect that you know all you need to know from someone by watching them for a few minutes. I also have a hard time seeing you as a reliable narrator, since you've already shown that you fabricate stories to back up your opinion.

My problem is your obvious prejudice against the poor. I doubt that your local paper said that 80 percent of all welfare recipients are defrauding the government. I doubt that very highly. You are pulling facts out of thin air. If you don't want to be called out on it, don't post fabrications as fact. You used a fake statistic to back up your prejudiced views. That's not ok. I am sorry if people on this site think that people on public assistance are lower than them, but I tend to judge people for their bad behaviour, rather than their socioeconomic status.

Sandbox Sally, I see what you are saying because I was the single Mom of 4 children who worked a full time job and a part time job to pay the rent, food, clothing and all necessities of a family of 5. It was sheer hell and I missed so much of my children's lives. I did everything I could to keep us off welfare but my children suffered for it and I suffered for it.

But then I went on (it was called Mother's Allowance in the 90's) to go to college for a few years and it was horrible, we couldn't survive on that income so I took a part-time job as well and with all of the college classes and working, you guessed it, I hardly saw my children again.

Now, I have heard people on forums complain about parents who never spend time with their children and dump them at daycare and it makes me cringe. Who are they to judge? And the line in this thread about choosing the wrong partner, well I chose ALL the WRONG men!

I see your point. I don't like it when people make judgements of others because nobody has walked in anyone else's shoes.

But Momofnerds overheard someone saying something that admittedly would have made my mouth drop open too. I'm against people smoking around children so that would have put the cap on it for me. I have neighbours sitting on their 2nd floor balcony right this minute smoking pot while my clients are arriving to pick up their children. I had the welfare neighbour who had nothing better to do with his time other than to smoke nonstop and party with his friends during the day and I'm lucky I didn't lose any clients. It was horrible. It's hard not to judge them!

But there are so many kinds of prejudice, racial, sexual preferences, prejudice against people who are overweight, poverty stricken, handicapped and so much more. It all makes me furious when people judge! I'm not picking a side, I'm trying to point out that we should all support each other. Isn't that why we are here?

I feel like I offer lots of support on this board, and lots of people, yourself included, Momof4, have supported me, and I am grateful for that. I love many women that I've met on here, and some have become off board friends, too.

But...I am not just talking about momofnerds, nor am I just talking about the story about the woman momofnerds saw the other day. I am talking about this whole disgusting thread, where people do nothing to hide their hatred of the poor. It deeply upsets me, and I cannot sit and read it without saying my piece. I have as much right to state my case as everyone else. I won't let fake stats slide when they're being used to incriminate a vulnerable population. That's just wrong, sorry.

It's so upsetting to see the same tired old stereotypes being propagated here of all places, where we are supposed to be teaching the next generation to do better, yet the cycle of prejudice and closed mindedness continues. It's just so sad and disheartening.

In future, I will try to stick to daycare issues, but it's hard to stand by and watch sometimes.

I wasn't going to wade into these murky waters again...because it's like swimming upstream sometimes. People are set in their ways of seeing things and it is very difficult to change their minds...even through intelligent factual debate. We all make judegments...even those of us who think we are open-minded. But we should all be open to looking at things from another perspective...seeing things through another's eyes. We don't know what led up to that mother sitting and smoking at the park while talking about assistance on her iPhone. We don't know if she is mentally or physically ill, if she has been abused, if she was a foster child, if she had an abusive husband or father or mother for that matter, etc. Do any of these things mean she could not go on to lead a productive life? No...but the thing is, we don't know at what point in her life we have found her...we don't know ANYTHING about her. I would like to think that if my life ever crumbles around me and I find myself down in the dumps (it can happen to the best of us by the way) that I will have a system there to help me out and that I won't be judged left right and centre by self-rightous individuals who think this could never happen to them and that somehow it is my fault no matter what.

I am all for this discussion and debate- We are going to have different opinions- we are different people and we have different experiences etc.

Where I have an issue as a mod is the intentional stirring up of controversy. I am going to close this thread as we have veered way off topic but please feel free to restart this discussion in another thread. I think we all can learn a lot from each other.

Thank you.