Limits in Your Province/Territory. please

[QUOTE=sunnydays;7070 1]Rachael...I am sorry if you have misunderstood my point completely. I did not once say (nor do I believe) that we in Ontario are better than the rest of you!!

Yes you did ! LOL You said it right here :

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Originally Posted by sunnydays

...we are being dragged down to your level.

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It's basic English comprehension. To consider yourself as being dragged down to the level of other provinces, is a clear indication that you consider yourself above (or better) than them.

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Originally Posted by sunnydays

we ALL deserve to make a decent living because this is a hard and important job...I meant YOU deserve that too!

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Wow, that's very generous of you 'cause I sure haven't seen one single Bill 10 thread where it's included providers in Manitoba or PEI whose limits are even lower than those Bill 10 is suggesting. All I've seen is concerns about how Bill 10 affects Ontario Providers - and yes, I do fully understand it's an Ontario bill and that's my point - If you believed that we all deserve to make a decent living, why is no one voicing concerns about the other provinces just your own?

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I opened my daycare knowing the rules and having done my calculations as to whether it is something I can do while helping to support my family. If the rules and fees were like they are in your area, I could not have opened a daycare at all as it just wouldn't have been feasible for me.

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See below...

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I would like to think we would all rally support for you as well.

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And yet, no one has/does. That's what I find so offensive. Manitoba and
PEI have dreadful ratios and have had them for some time and so I am sure you can see, although you'd like to think people would rally, no one has. It's all well and good to say the words but it's the actions which count. Hence my point that Ontario providers have laid low and taken the good times and it's hard for us to be sympathetic now they are facing some of the issues every other province already has.

Personally, I'd like to see children care be a federal issue not provincial. I'd like to see the top us, funding etc across the country and I could even live with the amounts being a sliding scale based on cost of living - if it's really cost of living and not some antiquated view of the cheap life on the East Coast. However, the actions of those against Bill 10 aren't offering federal solutions merely provincial complaints.

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Originally Posted by playfelt

In all of the discussions of the changes in Ontario what is getting lost is the fact that it is "CHANGES". People got into daycare knowing what the rules were and made a family budget and made the move to home daycare knowing how their family would be impacted. Now the rules are changing and that is what the protest is about more than what the changes are too. I know other provinces have some even stricter rules but you knew those going in and could decide if it was the right decision for your family. If the new rules had been in place in Ontario the providers now facing closing their doors because of the unplanned loss of income due to lost spaces would never be happening.

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No - what is getting lost is that as mentioned by possibly yourself, the regs are out of date and needed changing. I think someone mentioned when they were written and there was a basic amendment in the 1980's. We can all agree that generations ago, children didn't have the rights they have now and were much more compliant and generally respectful that adults were authority figures and now, that's not the case. So with less compliant children, and more expectations about what is suitable for care, surely the numbers had to change.

I understand you got into this based on the numbers as they are but you also did so knowing that the regs had not been updated for a long time. I am sure, you also recognize that parenting today and providing child care is very different than it was. Change is the one certainty we all face.

Any industries workers can claim they got into that field based on the rules and regs at the time and the expectation of income based on the market place at that time, but surely you didn't expect no changes to ever come?

Every single field of employment has had rule changes, legislation changes and often that's affected income.

Think of long-distance drivers who but a few short years ago, could drive all they wanted and pull over when tired. Now, for the safety of all of us, they are mandated to take breaks every so often and indeed have tachometers which ensure they do. I am confident that also cost the industry money particularly the self-employed drivers with their own rigs, who based their income of travelling a set distance in a set time.

The examples of professions affected by change include ALL of them. I think, if the objections are that you got into this business with rules as they are and expected to always earn that, then your failure to consider that as unrealistic is just that - your failure.

I can think of one single industry which hasn't been affected by rule changes since the 80's - can you?

The fact that childcare isn't a federal issue is mind boggling to me. Just ridiculous. I don't see any justifiable reason why the rules are not the same country wide.

very interesting to read
Being in the west and know how expensive everything is out here

I look after 4 children under the age of 3 and the ratio is 4 to 1 for a licensed
infant/toddler daycare

Rachael, by "dragged down to your level" I was referring to your overly restrictive and difficult regulations...which you yourself have said are VERY difficult to work within. And as for rallying to support you...have you rallied for yourselves? Because generally those affected are the ones who start to rally (as we are doing in Ontario) and then others can support their cause. I have not heard anything about your conditions or that you are fighting to have these changed. If I did hear of such rallies, I would be supportive of fellow childcare providers trying to better conditions for themselves and the children in their care.
And yes, every profession goes through changes. And if the changes are truly for the better and increase safety or make things better in some way, then change is good. However, in this case, Bill 10 is not going to make children safer. Statistics in Ontario show that the death rate in licensed daycare is actually higher than in unlicensed. We have an excellent safety record...those of us who are following the current regulations. The current regulations work just fine. What is needed is more enforcement of the rules in order to crack down on those who are running illegal, over-ratio daycares...they are the ones who are causing problems. This Bill unfairly targets all private daycare providers while doing absolutely NOTHING to improve child safety. All it will do is create a daycare shortage and increase in rates. In fact, in some ways, I may be better off...I will have less children but charge more...less work for the same money. But I am fighting this bill because that will be so unfair to families who can barely afford daycare as it is. It will force them to put their children in illegal daycare to save money...and the children will suffer. That is my main reason for fighting this bill.

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Originally Posted by sunnydays

However, in this case, Bill 10 is not going to make children safer. Statistics in Ontario show that the death rate in licensed daycare is actually higher than in unlicensed. We have an excellent safety record...those of us who are following the current regulations. The current regulations work just fine. What is needed is more enforcement of the rules in order to crack down on those who are running illegal, over-ratio daycares...they are the ones who are causing problems. This Bill unfairly targets all private daycare providers while doing absolutely NOTHING to improve child safety. All it will do is create a daycare shortage and increase in rates. In fact, in some ways, I may be better off...I will have less children but charge more...less work for the same money. But I am fighting this bill because that will be so unfair to families who can barely afford daycare as it is. It will force them to put their children in illegal daycare to save money...and the children will suffer. That is my main reason for fighting this bill.

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I think this is very naive.

Although as providers we have each proven ourselves capable of managing the children in our care, any reduction in numbers will always mean more attention on the fewer children and it's simple math that additional attention will result in fewer injuries.

Will all accidents be prevented ? No. Because accidents are just that - accidents - but no one can argue that any situation where one is supervising many means attention is divided and the possibility of injury is therefore greater.

As it stands now in Ontatio, as detailed in this very thread, carer's own children do not count and children over the age of 10 do not count, so theoretically, an Ontario carer can have unlimited children as long as they are her own and client children over age 10.

I hear the comments that care for older children is not in high demand but the rules as they are allow unlimited children provided they are the carer's own or older than 10. So a woman with 6 kids and a day care, has her hands fairly full, wouldn't you agree? That is a safety issue however infrequently it happens.

The death rate in any province for children in day care is low compared to schools, and a host of other community supervised groups. Not all safety related concerns are measured purely by fatalities.

But your logic is not logical.

Illegal day cares and those who operate over numbers will always be a concern BUT they will only be filled with clients who seek cheap care/inexperienced carers. Every province has a proportion of parents willing to pay cash rates for no receipt, just as every province has any service provider willing to work for cash under the table. Cash prices mean corners get cut with supplies in every single profession. This is not an issue that will go away regardless of if Bill 10 goes through. It's a separate issue entirely.

I do understand that Bill 10 will mean fewer children and therefore lower your income and reduce the places available from existing carers. I also understand that many who currently run day care's will decide it's no longer viable for them and close up. But we all know as quick as one good day care provider shuts her doors, others open.

I think it's very naive that you believe your reduced places will justify you increasing your fees to make this a viable business for you personally. Bottom line, parents will pay for child care what they can afford. It's unlikely young parents will be able to conjure up the additional fees you believe you will be forced to charge to compensate your income with fewer children.

Bottom line - if your service is worth $40 today it doesn't magically become worth $60 tomorrow. Clients are not responsible for picking up the short fall.

What I predict will happen, is some carer's will jack their prices to compensate for the reduced places believing parents will pay it because they have no choice. But clients ALWAYS have options. People are resourceful.

Some parents will split the work hours so one of them is always home.
Some parents will pull in extended family for help.
Some parents will go part-time and reduce their day care expenses.
Some parents will job share and exchange child-care responsibilities.
And yes, some will go to an illegal provider because financially they have no alternative.

But I think you are naive in the belief that demand will enable you to jack your prices. Although some parents would be able to afford the increase, others simply will not be able to. Unless every single provider jacks their prices, which is unlikely, you will price yourself out of the market and your places will likely sit empty for longer.

There is always someone willing to plug the gap when a service is in demand. Because of that, some carer's will continue to charge what they do now. Their places will be filled, yours will be empty - not because of the level of care you offer but because your fees will be so much higher.

There will likely be a period of more illegal day cares who soak up the access especially in the immediate aftermath. There will also be some new day care centres opening because someone will see the opportunity of scooping up all these children who were in private daycares who find themselves without a carer. Some parents will resort to grandparents and family.

I'm sorry but with your comments about increased fees, the effects on your business, how hard it will be for your personal financial situation with fewer children - I personally am not convinced that you are fighting this bill "because that will be so unfair to families who can barely afford daycare as it is. It will force them to put their children in illegal daycare to save money...and the children will suffer." I believe you are fighting this bill because of the direct effect it will have on your family income - as would I. And, that's fine and perfectly acceptable and understanding.

I think you and I will have to accept our differences in view in this subject - and that's fine too.