Frustrated! About legal limiting of people...

Is anyone else frustrated with the regulation that does not allow day care providers to gather in their own home with more than 5 day care children present? I am trying to see how this is going to work. I sometimes feel very isolated as a provider and would like to have a friend with other children over sometimes and vise versa. I find that my parents want their children to interact with other kids but am not sure how to make this happen.

There is a play group in our neighborhood in a church however I have found in the past that playgroups for day care providers feel so unsafe. Lots of kids and not all the providers are with their children. They are often sitting together eating snack and having coffee. Not to mention the germs with 20 -30 kids in one room - yuck. For me to the local play group is quite far to walk, once we get there it's often time to go home for lunch or a nap.

It is -30 here some days in the winter so meeting a parks outside is not really an option.

What are other people doing? Ignoring the rules or being alone?

Regards,
Jennifer

I used to get together in good weather at a park or at an early years centre. Not so much anymore unless i have only a couple that day and another provider only has a couple. It's hard in the winter to be so isolated though.

Yes, I am finding the 'no play dates' policy to be very frustrating as well!!!!! I live in Ottawa area and the CCPRN is hosting extra children's events so that caregivers will still have opportunity to socialize in public. It isn't the same but it does mean that I can have a few minutes of adult conversation :)

Also, with the 'no play date' policy it doesn't mean that you can't get together with Mom's and have play dates. I don't know a whole lot of people but I am certainly looking at seeing if I can meet some Mommy's and tots to have over for play dates.

In the summer it is definitely easier to socialize and meet in public places, but yes, the winter it is very isolating because we are daycare bound often.

To beat the winter isolation, I am currently taking my daycare children to approx 3 - 4 children's events per month, 1 field trip, music lessons every other week, and getting to the park every single day that we can. I can't stand driving the daycare children to and from so many activities but it is the only way to stay sane, lol.

It's difficult in the winter, but in the nice weather I like to meet other caregivers at a nearby park for playdates. Also, we have a storytime program at our libraries in our city and we can meet with our groups to play there and enjoy the stories and songs. It's also nice to have someone else perform circle time once a week, heehee!

Is that rule in every province? And is it for the licensed or non-licensed homes ...or both?
I'm a private day home and haven't heard of this ...in Calgary.

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Originally Posted by mlc1982

Is that rule in every province? And is it for the licensed or non-licensed homes ...or both?
I'm a private day home and haven't heard of this ...in Calgary.

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I am not sure about other provinces, but it is for Ontario.

It is a very confusing situation in Ontario. Apparently some cities have turned a blind eye to play dates in each other's homes, and some cities have banned it. The language in the Day Nurseries Act is open to interpretation and there is no 'rule' book to clarify the situation. Therefore, some of us have a couple of decades of play dates experience (in Ottawa) but in Petawawa for instance, they have not been allowed. Go figure.

Hello

A licensed childcare (the home is licensed not the caregiver) may only have 7 children and there are very strict rules about the ages of the children that may be present. You may have another caregiver over (as long as they have criminal record searches done), but you cannot exceed the 7 children and age limit restrictions. Regulations state that a caregiver that is not licensed may only have 2 children on the premises or 3 if 2 are siblings. Regulations state that you may not share a nanny if she will be caring for more than 2 children.
Regulations are very strict in BC. but on nice days we do have the chance to visit in the parks and playgrounds.

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Originally Posted by horsegirl

Hello

A licensed childcare (the home is licensed not the caregiver) may only have 7 children and there are very strict rules about the ages of the children that may be present. You may have another caregiver over (as long as they have criminal record searches done), but you cannot exceed the 7 children and age limit restrictions.

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NICE! I have a licensed Group Care Centre in BC. There was a time when I only had 2 children in care due to sickness, and vacations. I called my LO to ask if it is an accepted practise to visit another centre if they had low numbers too. She said "No, it's not in the children's best interest. It is in your interest." If we're supervising the children and happy, the children will be happy! Isn't that the children's best interest?? So, there is one obvious benefit to having a licensed family daycare instead of a Multiage or Group Centre!

I think you have raised a good point. BUT I don't think it is what either of our Provinces want to hear. My impression is that they think the only 'legitimate' form of day care is institutional day care. I don't understand that bias but I think it is very real. My 15 years of experience in day care, and 33 years as a mother have led me to believe VERY STRONGLY in the value of home based care for children. I think that the rules should be made to be more realistic. I once did a GOOGLE search re: children injured in large day cares and was stunned at how many articles there were about it. And not nearly so many with home based day cares. So why the bias against us?

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Originally Posted by dragonlady3

re: children injured in large day cares and was stunned at how many articles there were about it. And not nearly so many with home based day cares. So why the bias against us?

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From working in the past at many centers: any cut or scrape the child gets, you have to write up an accident form - it's annoying, but the business has to cover their a$$es! I also find that home daycare providers usually don't write up accident forms. They just tell the parents directly or write it up on that childs daily log.

I have playdates with other providers I need to or I go insane!

Were the injuries from large institutions?? 20+ children

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Originally Posted by ceECE

NICE! I have a licensed Group Care Centre in BC. There was a time when I only had 2 children in care due to sickness, and vacations. I called my LO to ask if it is an accepted practise to visit another centre if they had low numbers too. She said "No, it's not in the children's best interest. It is in your interest." If we're supervising the children and happy, the children will be happy! Isn't that the children's best interest?? So, there is one obvious benefit to having a licensed family daycare instead of a Multiage or Group Centre!

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Im in BC and Thats so strange cause I asked my LO today generally the same thing and got a totally different answer. I was told I could have a friend over for coffee provided they were not left alone with the kids. I was also told if that friend had kids she could still come as long as I was within my limits. Id think that would go with a provider and her kids coming to visit as well. Funny how different LO's say different things. Maybe it is because Im family child care and your group?

Hi....I have had an inquiry about play dates and wondered if any of you had this experience or know someone who did. The question was related to the fact that I wrote (see above) that I used to have play dates and was inspected, and the Prov. allowed them...as long as they weren't too frequent. The same thing happened last year and I was told that they were forbidden (with the usual caveats re: numbers of children and adults we all discussed above). Am I the only one this happened to??? Has anyone else had this experience?

Hi. I can certainly understand your frustration and feelings of isolation when it comes to getting together with other care providers and the children they care for. If meeting at your daycare facility or a local park is not an option, why not meet somewhere like a local indoor rec centre or kiddies pool for some swim n play and caregiver chat time? Perhaps the local McDonald's, DQ or Burger King? They have play places and it makes for a great coffee and play time for care providers and their little ones? I hope this helps :)

I've never heard of a home daycare getting an inspection unless there was a formal complaint, or if the daycare is under an agency. If under an agency, a home visitor will come to visit your home daycare once a month, and never the same time/day of the week.

Nicole - I don't believe I would pass inspection as well! Like you I have the basic plug covers and such, but I treat my daycare as a home, and not a daycare center.

The problem I have for play dates is that there is no play ground in our subdivision, and there's nothing in walking distance. I don't feel safe enough driving my kids around town (and insurance goes up with having daycare kids in the car), so I can't even go to the ELC in town! There are two other providers in this subdivision but they are full; and I legally cannot walk onto the property just to say hi and have a quick chat! It's crazyness, and very lonely.

Now, our subdivision is under review for having a park to be built in the future, but it also depends on how much it's going to be, how many people are willing to help out, etc. If all goes well, it might take up to 3-4 years to have it finished!!!

Andrea: I really feel for your situation! I know I do not like driving with the dc kiddies. I do because I love getting out of the house and doing different things. I have always been like that with daycare when I have had the opportunity.

A thought, don't know if it is possible ... is here we have lots of local parks but none have fences, and I don't use my back yard for the children. What I do with a bunch of other local caregivers is we meet at our local school yard. We have received permission from the principal that when the morning kindergarten class is let out at 11 that we are allowed to use the kindergarten play yard until 12 (15 min before the next class). It is awesome. I find the time restrictions limiting, but a fenced yard is so much safer than a non-fenced park.

Another thing we do a lot is a bunch of us get together in the spring and fall (when school is in) is we go for walks around the neighbourhood before we head to the park. I haven't been to kemptville so I don't know what options you may have, but even a quick 15 - 30 min walk with another caregiver might be nice :)

I have only heard of the rule through word of mouth ,however I currently care for 2 1 year olds another who will be 2 in June and 1 that will be 3 in may as well as another 1 year old starting next month.I have a friend with 2 year old twins that usually comes once a week for a playdate ,these rules are dumb and made by people sitting in a office chair looking to make rules.I would like these rule makers to take a walk in any of our shoes then see what they think of their rule.As for me i will continue to have my friend over !!

Nicole - thanks for the suggestion - it would be perfect if I lived right in town - because there are many parks there. But I live in Settlers' Grant (and the 3 subdivisions are not connected at all, and none have parks).

It's about a 5-10min drive into Kemptville. I drive with one little one (but she's more like a niece to me; family friends), but can't drive when I have the others. When I have the girl, we drive into Barfhaven :P to visit my sis and her boys, and into BC to visit my parents. But that happens once every second week, maybe once a week if I can get the car.

I suppose I should have also mentioned, hubby has the car, as we only have 1 vehicle! If I want the car, I have to drive him to work (only 5-10min), and then pick him up after work (5p.m.), then I have to eat, and teach dancing from 6-9 p.m.!!! Plans to have a second vehicle will come into play just while I become prego with my first!

busybee if your friend is the mom of the twins it is perfectly ok to have them over for a play date :)

The way the law is worded is that 2 or more caregivers cannot get together on a private premises unless they only have 5 children under the age of 10 combined (and only the children that live on the premises are excluded from the ratios), but a caregiver and 5 moms with as many children who are theirs can visit you or you them is not illegal.

I think the DNA needs to be updated, the DNA was developed when home daycares were basically all babysitters, there was limited programming becasue most were relatives or friends watching each others children. But times have changed and so have many home daycares. There are still some who are considered babysitters in my eyes, or some who are just caregivers meaning they do a little more than ensure the needs and safety of the children are met, but they don't have a program, structure or routines.

I see more children being injured while in the care of their parents than in caregivers. Parents are stopped from having play dates? I have some friends who have 4 - 8 children of their own and if they get together the two moms could have more children than me (but will admit they do have older children;) in the mix ). It is unfortunate, but unless we all get together and petition the government I can't see anything being changed :(

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Originally Posted by Play and Learn

When I have the girl, we drive into Barfhaven :P to visit my sis and her boys, and into BC to visit my parents. But that happens once every second week, maybe once a week if I can get the car.

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Well, in the morning if you are ever in Barfhaven and you would like to meet up at our local hang out let me know and I can tell you which school we are at :) Even once a month it is still nice to get out. Unfortunately I have too many little ones right now or I would say we can drive out to you for a walk, but I never purchased the trailer for my quint stroller so I am stuck with using umbrella strollers for outings.

I didn't realize you were so close ... do tell me what kind of dance you teach? My daughter dances a lot and I am sort of on the scout for a new dance studio for her. She does love competition dance though, but I am thinking I wand to pull her from competition because it is a huge time and financial commitment.

I think too one of the reasons they are enforcing the two caregivers and only 5 children is because some caregivers have been skirting the rules and they had tried to crack down on it except it was "legal" to do it - one of those letter of the law/spirit of the law things. I know of several cases where one caregiver had her 5 kids arrive to her house and then she immediately took them over to a friend's house and they hung out for the whole day or at least till after lunch and ready for naptime. Then they would go back to the caregiver's house for pick up. What this skirted was the not being able to have 2 caregivers and 10 kids in one house. Because she officially had her own daycare and children arrived and left from there she met the rules. So by banning playdates they have effectively put an end to that practice of sharing the teaching duties in one house.

You are so right dragonlady3. My husband thinks it is the government's way of controlling this area and the children. But, we know that the government has failed at trying to run businesses.

The children's advocacy group and the ECE's of BC want the government to start a tax payer funded day care program with hub centers. They want the centers to be run by ECE's and they are proposing that there be ECE's in kindergarten, grade 1 and grade 2--to help the teachers. We have already cut music, PE (gym), choir, and a lot of other extra curricular courses from the schools and now they want more cut to implement these programs.

I attended a meeting regarding taxpayer funded daycare and I took an armfull of printouts about allegations, investigations and charges in centre based daycares. I too, had a hard time finding many charges with in home day care.

I have operated my licensed daycare for 15 years and I run a preschool type program, with music and movement, science, arts & crafts, circle time, story time and theme weeks. I am not an ECE but a Mom that has seen the benefits in children's lives after being in a family day care. We are more flexible, there is more one on one time with the little ones, parents only have to deal with the person responsible for care not the manager, the parents only have one person to build trust in not the many that make up the care at the centres. Some children in our area do not even know the names of their caregivers in a centre because there are so many that look after them.

Family day care is just that, a loving family environment. As we all know there is no place like home.

I meet other DCP friends in parks and splashpad settings in the summer and at the library for storytime. But I do have a friend about 3 km or so away with her own HCP and when I only have 3 children I put them in my triple stroller and we go fo a visit. I guess we don't worry very much about our visit because it's only for about an hour.

I am not sure how widely known this rule is. I had no idea it existed and was illegal until I read this thread. I see providers in my neighbourhood go for playdates in each other's back yards and more than 5 kids are present and I see them get together at the park and discuss all the barbecues they will have together during daycare hours this summer and make it a summer tradition and switch houses etc. Either DCP do not know about this or else they are just not following it. I am really surprised there is such a rule quite frankly

Spixie33 that is exactly what was going on when the 2 year old drowned here in Orleans, Ontario and that started the ministry cracking down on their rules and telling us that playdates were against the rules. Several caregivers had been regularly getting together all summer in each other's places and the child drowned in a pool that was in the yard of the house they were all playing at.

Just for information the daycare providers in question have been charged for operating an illegal daycare centre - ( more than 5 kids on the premises at a time) and will be fined at minimum. Not sure if the full outcome has happened yet but that is the last word I read in the paper.

Up until this time we all thought it was ok from sharing a music teacher to having a playdate in the winter or a waterplay day in the summer. Well we were wrong. It is against the law. A lot don't know this. We do here in Ottawa because of the tragedy. No idea if they will be more vigilent about enforcing it in other cities or not. Guess people will have to decide if having their daycare closed for good and paying a fine is worth the playdate.

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Originally Posted by playfelt

Spixie33 that is exactly what was going on when the 2 year old drowned here in Orleans, Ontario and that started the ministry cracking down on their rules and telling us that playdates were against the rules. Several caregivers had been regularly getting together all summer in each other's places and the child drowned in a pool that was in the yard of the house they were all playing at.

Just for information the daycare providers in question have been charged for operating an illegal daycare centre - ( more than 5 kids on the premises at a time) and will be fined at minimum. Not sure if the full outcome has happened yet but that is the last word I read in the paper.

Up until this time we all thought it was ok from sharing a music teacher to having a playdate in the winter or a waterplay day in the summer. Well we were wrong. It is against the law. A lot don't know this. We do here in Ottawa because of the tragedy. No idea if they will be more vigilent about enforcing it in other cities or not. Guess people will have to decide if having their daycare closed for good and paying a fine is worth the playdate.

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I haven't followed that case that closely but I do recall seeing it in the news and shaking my head how not just 1 adult but 2 could not see the tragedy unfold.
Then again...since becoming a provider and seeing how the park turns into a social time for a lot of providers I can see that they are often busy socializing and not focused on the kids. I always feel like they are laughing at me because I follow the kids from play area to play area just in case something does happen. I am not 12 inches away but I am within a few feet or hovering nearby so i can quickly reach someone if they do get hurt or are about to

We have tons of home daycares in my subdivision and the providers do have get togethers or play in each other's yards. I haven't done it because it hasn't come up for me but I would probably have agreed if I had been asked or if someone suggested it last year. Of course now that I see this thread - I have a lot more understanding and wouldn't put my whole daycare at risk and do it.
I even took a daycare course last fall and never had the instructor even mention it. The instructor seemed to say that reaching out to other providers was actually helpful and it was great to socialize and not to feel isolated. Of course the instructor was right too but I wish she had known or told us about it being illegal if the number of DCK exceeds 5

I am lucky to have playgroups and parks vey close by and also I use my van to take the kids on outings. I think it is good for the kids and essential for me to get out and see other adults so that I don't feel too isolated. As a new daycare provider, I have had the support and advice from the numerous other caregivers who go to the playgroups and parks in my neighbourhood. This has been invaluable for me! I also like that the kids are learning a sense of community by seeing the same kids at playgroup and the park frequently...they are able to make friends and build relationships. However, I would not put my daycare at risk by breaking the rules and doing caregiver playdates. I can have other moms over with their kids if I want (although I don't think I'll do that in the winter as my playroom is not big enough to accomodate too too many kids safely at once). I really feel for those of you who cannot get out with the kids.

I was just re-reading this thread and thinking about my own childhood. I grew up in the 60s when moms still worked from home. My mum and her neighbors took turns visiting each other thereby reducing the isolation of childcare, and they shared a lot of their experiences and advice. It dawned on me, that we caregivers of 2011 are comparable to those mothers. My mother would never have tolerated the isolation. She would have been a looney!! (My sister and I were not 'quiet' children!!!) Many of hose mothers led the struggle to implement child care so they could have careers. So here we are....mums go off to work now, and we stay back with the children, but if we get paid and are competent, we must now be isolated from each other...except for public parks, libraries, and this web site. Doesn't it seem to be a huge step back in the struggle for women's rights? We get paid for our expertise, but must be more isolated than our own mother's and grandmother's. We don't seem to have made much progress over the last 50 years....and this doesn't even deal with the issue of the benefits to our children when visiting other homes. Strange world!

so true dragonlady3, and then people wonder how we burn out...

Dragonlady love your arguement. Would love to see that idea sent to the media somehow. If nothing else it just might spark someone to rethink.

Thanks....I would love to have the media take a good look at what we do, the very long hours we work without the breaks guaranteed other working women, and the very substantial level of responsibility we shoulder, but I believe the media tends to see us as unqualified and basically scary people. I don't think we would get a very fair hearing.

I posted months ago on this subject, but I find it really important to get out of my house with my daycare children so that I don't go stir crazy and get some adult time and it benefits them as well. We travel to our Children's library downtown every Monday where we have a playdate with another daycare so I'm good friends with the caregiver and my children and her children know each other now.

One or two other days per week we travel to a park where we meet a few other daycare providers with their groups and I have adult conversations in between chasing down my children and so do the other HDCP's. It gives us a wonderful break outside of our homes and our children get to play with other children outside our own daycares that they get to know well. It's a good preparation for big groups when they get to JK.

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Originally Posted by dragonlady3

Thanks....I would love to have the media take a good look at what we do, the very long hours we work without the breaks guaranteed other working women, and the very substantial level of responsibility we shoulder, but I believe the media tends to see us as unqualified and basically scary people. I don't think we would get a very fair hearing.

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Oh I think I love you!

You are too funny! Thanks. One day we may prevail...be treated with respect, but it won't be by the government. The latest is the news that they would like to start children in 'industrial' daycares by the age of 2. Just what little children need, large, competitive groups in noisy rooms. Oh...and some day cares discourage hugging the children!! Doesn't that make for a terrific way to grow and mature into loving adults who are capable of becoming good partners and parents! But they 'might' get a good early education!

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Originally Posted by dragonlady3

You are too funny! Thanks. One day we may prevail...be treated with respect, but it won't be by the government. The latest is the news that they would like to start children in 'industrial' daycares by the age of 2. Just what little children need, large, competitive groups in noisy rooms. Oh...and some day cares discourage hugging the children!! Doesn't that make for a terrific way to grow and mature into loving adults who are capable of becoming good partners and parents! But they 'might' get a good early education!

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I think that the parents whose values are similar to our own will continue using home daycares. I think that a certain section of the population understands and values how important home-like care and consistency is. :)

Discourage hugging?? Damn. I give mine kisses too!

Me too! Love to ruffle hair too! OOOOpss...probably get into big trouble some day. I too believe we offer a critical service and will continue to provide it with lots of hugs, eye contact, a calm, non-competitive and quiet environment, and I will be just as sane as the children. And we will be the ones producing good team players, and terrific future parents. Kisses and hugs to all...BIG and small...happy new year!

So true Dragonlady3! The current Lib Gov (Emperor McGuinty) has taken this belief that centre based care is the only acceptable one a step further by forcing the implementation of all day Kindergarten. They believe institutional care (either centres or schools) should be the only care available. Just because he failed to have wrap around day care (in most areas) the first time doesn't mean he won't try again. Full day Kindergarten reduces care from a full day to part time two years earlier. The costs to the children however are too numerous to mention here.

No kidding! And because of the policy....and the lack of funds to properly implement it....and little forethought to the consequences ....at least 4 gov't sponsored 'industrial' day cares in Toronto are looking at closures because they are losing their 3/4/5 year olds. They don't have enough children to pay their bills. Way to go! Now will they have to be bailed out with gov't money...OUR tax dollares? I love it... Put your own day cares out of business. Nutty gov't= nutty unworkable policies.