I know there have been many threads on here about reporting fellow home child care providers. Just wondering if anyone knows who to contact to report someone.
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I know there have been many threads on here about reporting fellow home child care providers. Just wondering if anyone knows who to contact to report someone.
Depends on which Province you are located in?
If you are in Ontario you would go the Ministry of Education website and find childcare section and click 'what do I do if I have concerns about my childcare' and they have a check list of protocol to follow.
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/childcare/concerns.html
I would imagine that other provinces have the same info on their websites?
i think it depends on what its about. If you suspect they are abusing the children in some way you would contact child services or police. But you really have to be careful with this and be 100% sure that there would be something worth reporting and that you have full proof. Not just what you "think" or "perceive" is going on. This is a very serious thing you'd be doing that would affect someone else's life very drastically and negatively. If its in regards to # of children and ratios, you have to know your stuff. what the definite rules are for your province. are they private or registered and how those rules are different to both. also whether this person has extra help inside with another assistant or adult, etc.
Either way, if its something really bad that is causing the children great harm, then do it immediately. But if you're just grumpy and annoyed with someone and are wanting to make their life hard, i really wouldn't.
I'm not grumpy or annoyed, just concerned about the number of children in care. I have the info for the province I'm in, and this provider is WAY over her numbers. I'm torn. I don't want to cause harm to anyone - especially the children. There are too many horror stories in the news about home daycare and I'd feel terrible if this provider is the next one in the news because of something happening to one of the kids in care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayhome Mamma
Thanks for the info and comments
You also have to understand that providers that are over thier ratios aren't nec. doing a bad job eithier. I know of a couple of dayhomes where I am that are over, but provide GREAT CARE. I would proceed with caution depending on the nature of your concern
I think regardless of whether they provide great care or not, all providers should follow the rules regarding the numbers. It's simply illegal to have more than a certain number. Being good at it is beside the point. I wonder if this provider is aware of the rules if they are "way" over what's allowed. Maybe they just aren't aware. Is your relationship with the person one where you could casually mention it?
I am not looking to start a debate over it, but before I report I gather all my facts
I agree with Jazmic - that the laws are the laws ... being over ratio is illegal and it also means that they are operating without proper insurance in the event of an accident.... it does not matter who capable a person is or how 'stupid' you might think the rules are ... we are a society that has 'rules and consequences' for a reason - to maintain decorum and if we are start just doing our own thing you have anarchy before long :(
However one does need to make sure that they are TRULY illegal cause in some provinces the laws are STUPID and make it hard to know if someone is illegal or not ... for example in Ontario if you are operating a program through a 'licensed agency' you can only have 5 children including your own and there are even limits on the AGES of those 5 children HOWEVER if you operate a 'private home daycare' you are allowed to have 5 children between 0-10 years of age PLUS your own .... so if you see someone walking down the street with 8 children and they are all under 5 years of age your first thought might be 'wow that must be illegal' however if in reality 3 are the providers OWN children she is not illegal and it is up to the parents to choose if they are comfortable with that many children in care and that age mix and so forth! On the flipside none of the children could be hers and she could be totally illegal and just not know the rules or not CARE because to her they do not make sense cause what difference does it make if any of them are her children or not?
My point being is that depending on the rules for your province it is very HARD for JOE PUBLIC to know the difference between illegal and legal care based solely on the ####'s ... you have to know the provider and her circumstances and if she is private or licensed and so forth.
Hard call - ultimately you have to do what feels right in your own soul ... I am one who if I KNEW would have to report because if something happened I could not live with myself after the fact ... and if your doing it with good intentions and are 'wrong' better to air on side of caution than for society to keep turning a 'blind eye' so to speak!
And for those in society who do not agree with the rules of our government - we advocate to CHANGE THEM we do not just IGNORE THEM ;)
I agree that the rules are the rules. If we are not following rules, then why can't parents question some of ours....taking advantage of home providers as someone over their numbers is taking advantage.
True, some providers are excellent and over their numbers but, for myself I would be cautious in reporting and get your facts ~ which sounds like you know.
I agree with you dodge- I know a lot of great providers who are also over. The parents know and I know she is an excellent provider.
Just take all things above that the ladies offered in advice. Good luck in your choice to call or not.
I want to make it clear that I fully understand that rules are rules...:) I would never do it because I do not want to deal with the risks associated with that; or damaging relationships with exsisting, potential clients or the comunity in which I live. I have had a disgrunted terminated client report me just cause she could it was a waste and embarassing. :S
There are a couple of dayhomes in my area that I know that are over, but thier teen daughters help, grandma helps, or hubby does too....So in some instances being over does not mean that children are not taken care of, that being said I would report some others if I had PROOF cause I know the kids suffer for it.
An issue that is over and above the safety issue and that is a debatable one based on how much help is in the home, etc. Let's face it some providers can't handle two kids properly while others manage 10 just fine. Those homes that are over are generally the ones able to charge a lower rate too so of course many parents are willing to overlook the issue if they even realize it is an issue. But then the rest of us trying to play by the rules and control our ratios are sitting with open spaces while the house down the street has double capacity - I need those kids at my house. Why should she be allowed to get away with it.
I agree with you on this one playfelt!! I had 9 months of waiting before I got full ...and even still I'm waiting a few months before my next ones start. Probably due in some part of a few in my area that are full beyond their max numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by playfelt
Yeah playfelt that is true, and I never thoght of that.... These "Over ratio" homes fill up before me...my rates reflect that my group is small...but some see it another way.
Ya the charging less and caring for MORE is something that baffles my mind to be honest?
Honestly I would rather have 3 children at $35 a day and earn $105 in revenue verses being over with 6 children at $20 a day and earn $120 ... you've got twice the amount of WORK and you have to FEED twice as many kids, provide materials and program for twice as many children and so forth and well just twice as much 'stress' and well on top of that you have the RISK of being illegal?
Just does not make sense to me at all?
And you know that the other very SAD thing is ... my DAD paid $20 a day back in 1972 for care for me ... and look at the difference in cost of living between than and now ;)
My mom mentioned that she paid $70/week for me at 4yrs in school with home lunch (lady lived across the street from the school) and my 8mos old brother was $90/week......23 years ago!!
That makes for me $14/day and infant brother $18/day!! :ohmy: and exactly like Reggio said "and look at the difference in cost of living between than and now".
Yup ... it amazes me how people were able to 'afford' that back in the 70's when 'subsidy' was unheard of and wages were way LESS and MOST women in the work force who had to work were only making minimum wage or not much more and way less than MEN even if they were in a 'good paying job' .... however now minimum wage has gone for $2.50 an hour to $10.25 an hour over that time and people are still only able to 'afford' to pay the SAME for daycare???Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamma_Mia
It saddens me to be honest how little our field is valued ... in 1990 I got a job in a non profit centre making just on $10.25 an hour with a 8 hour work day and a paid lunch hour, full benefits including a PENSION that the employer MATCHED so if I put in a $1 they put in a $1, 12 sick days at full pay, 6 sick days at 50% pay, 3 weeks vacation and so forth .... which back than was GOOD money and benefits specially for new grad cause minimum wage was like $3.15 an hour and many 'private' centres that is all they paid so I was lucky to get that job ... however when I left that job 10 years later my wages had only changed by $1.05 an hour over the course of 10 YEARS so an average of $0.10 an hour increase each year ..... in 2005 when I had to move to a new city and had to start 'over' in this field the starting wage I was offered with over 17 years experience in the field and a proven track record of professionalism and dedication to my field ... $10.10 an hour - expected to work 9 hour day and unpaid lunch, 10 sick days, 2 weeks vacation and NO BENEFITS ..... seriously that is how LITTLE our fields wages and resources have changed over the years????
However in comparison once upon a time it was a privilege for a family to have ONE car - now it is EXPECTED that they NEED at least TWO, families only ate out on 'special' occasions now we eat out 3-4 times week, women do not think twice about forking out $50 biweekly in manicures and pedicures or $300 every 6 weeks on haircuts with highlights, the electronics and toys families have, the cost of entertainment and cellphones and other 'extra's' and so forth that eat up the 'wages' people make is just considered the NORM and a NEED verses a extra and so forth?
Just baffles my mind - sorry to hijack the thread btw just a pet peeve of mine and the 'warehousing' of over ratio programs for cheap is just a symptom of the VALUE we place on our children and 'raising them' .... we do not think TWICE about paying $10 an hour for a teenage babysitter so we can go out and spend $200 on dinner and a movie because we NEED ME TIME to distress from our hard work but we claim we cannot 'afford' to pay someone $3.50 an hour to help RAISE our children in a quality education learning environment to give them the best head start in life and we willingly plop them in 'cheap' programs where I do not care how GOOD or PASSIONATE you are you cannot provide the same LEVEL of individual care and attention to 8-10 children that you can to 4 or 5 of them you just cannot have enough eyes, arms, and TIME in the day .... just does not make sense to me at all how we can have such a low priority for 'children' who are our future generation :cursing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hand in Hand
This topic comes and goes and as far as I’m concerned how do you know that 3 aren’t her kids? The rules say 5 maximum excluding your own. How does this make sense if someone has 5 kids plus 4 of their own? That’s 9 can they handle it? While yes/maybe and it’s legal.
I sometimes have an extra child as my neighbor’s daughter comes when we go to the park. She is not in my care but comes to the park with us? Can I handle it yes? Is it anyone’s business no way? Yet I have neighbors counting kids right in front of me all the time.
You had better know all your facts before possibly ruining someone’s reputation.
In my opinion, if you suspect wrongdoing and safety issues for the children you are not doing anything wrong by reporting a daycare to the authorities just in case. What's the worst that could happen? They have a visit from the Ministry or CAS people and come out doing everything properly or they have to fix what they are doing wrong. Either way, that caregiver is going to be a little more careful about everything she does which is only in the best interest of the children.
Don't feel guilty about making the call. I do have a friend who has 4 small children of her own and then her 5 daycare children and she was questioned about her numbers, but how do you know which children belong to the caregiver? I understand your need to make the call without knowing all the facts, because you are a concerned person and you don't have to give your name.
I don't think you are ruining someone's reputation and you could possibly save a child's life.
How would you feel if it was you? Having someone come in and look at all avenues of your space, talking to all your clients, neighbors etc, it would be very sad I think if she was within her ratios. Defamation of character can ruin a business.
All I am saying is get your facts 100% before making any call!
I had that happen twice in the last two years. The first time I suspect it was my crazy neighbours in the next house who called the Ministry of Child Services and they came in and left within 5 minutes. I had a screamer baby at the time and oh dear, they didn't like it that they had to listen to her screaming while they sat ouside in their lawn chairs smoking cigs and collecting their welfare.
The 2nd time it was my other crazy neighbour across the hall who was pissed at me because I called the cops late one night due to his smoking/noisy parties that were ongoing for years. The police told him to knock it off and the health unit came out to talk to him and post no smoking signs in our hallway after I called them so it was his petty vindictive call to CAS that brought them here. However, I'm doing everything right so I'm on record with them now as a good home daycare.
So, yes, I stand by my statements! If you suspect wrongdoing you should make the call and they don't mind and if the caregiver is doing a great job there is no harm done except for a little stress. My vindictive neighbour told them to tell me he had called just to be a jerk. But you can call anonymously.
I still believe it's best to call in a complaint if you are truly worried about the safety and welfare of children. How would you feel if a child died and you didn't make the call? I always err on the side of caution. SORRY! But I'm a Grandma and I love children and that's the way I am!
I agree Momof4 .... working in centre care as a 'professional' we were obligated by the laws to report 'suspected' abuse or neglect - it was up to CAS to determine if there was INDEED abuse of neglect occurring and yes there were times a child had markings and made a 'disclosure' that were NOT abuse or neglect but a warped perception of the child ... aka saying dad pushed me down the stairs cause he was mad at me when in reality what happened was the kid was farting around on the stairs the parent 'yelled' to knock it off and the kid startled and fell but in the kids MIND it was dad's voice that pushed him - they 'interpret' things differently and literally sometimes at that age... but if we did NOT report it and something happened to that kid and it was found that the kid had disclosed and we sloughed it off as 'kids will be kids' as a professional you can be held 'negligent' in causing that harm to the child as well :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Momof4
It is my understanding that they have broadened the duty to report to ALL of society now not just professionals?
Also the issue of 'illegal' childcare is not just about the children but it also damages and creates unfair business practice not only with lower fees but not paying their fair share into the societal services they benefit from - someone who is operating 'illegally' is not going to be claiming their income properly cause they are not going to be wanting a paper trail that they are ILLEGAL - so they are creating TAX FRAUD as well .... they are not playing into CPP properly but later will be able to collect them 'base amount' despite not having paid their fair share and so forth.
These are all incidentals that effect EVERYONE not just the children at risk!
Again - if we do not like the ratios restrictions imposed by the DNA we get a petition going and advocate and lobby for change - we do not just create our own rules and do whatever the hell we please .... that is not how civilized society behaves!
I agree with all the ladies who say to make sure you get your facts straight! I have my 5 daycare kiddos and my own 6 year old son. The lady next door to me has 4 afterschool daycare kids and my neighbour across the street has a little boy who loves to come over and play on the climber in my yard. To anyone driving by it looks like all those crazy kids are mine...but again, I am only responsible for my own 5 and my own son. The others are there playing, but not my responsibility. So very easy to THINK that I am over my ratios when in reality I am NOT. I would NEVER report someone without 1000000000% proof that the person was legit over their ratios.
Michelle, be careful when your son has a friend come over. If he's under 10 he counts as your responsibity and you could nullify your insurance or be shut down if the Ministry comes by. I'm just worried about you so thought I would mention this.
Oh for sure. His Mom comes with him so he's her responsibility. He just uses my climber :) but I totally get how people can 'assume' that providers are over their numbers..and with all the new rules where no matter how many adults are present you can only have 5 people will again assume they are all daycare children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Momof4
Yup - in Ontario there is debate at the moment about 'play dates on private property' and if they are 'illegal' as well .... technically the DNA does say that there can be no more than 5 children per premise regardless of the number of adults present ... and in the past that was interpreted to mean you had to each have your own 'premise' to operate out of but you could VISIT however after the drowning death in Orleans Ottawa a couple summers ago where local providers and met in someones yard and the child drowned in the pool - a debate about this rose all over Ottawa and surrounding areas. While they were never 'charged' with anything memos flew around at many of the OEYC and other support programs advising that 'play dates' were to be conducted only on PUBLIC venues ... aka parks, OEYC, library and so forth you could not have a playdate on private property unless you had LESS than 5 daycare children in attendance in total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Momof4
Now there is nothing I personally can find directly from the Ministry of Education saying that play dates for home childcare providers are 'banned' ... it is all just 'advice' from support agencies but I would definitely tread cautiously if you are choosing to do this still - make sure your insurance carrier KNOWS and your POLICES state that it is ok in writing or you could find yourself without insurance in an incident occurred as well as you COULD find yourself with a Ministry visit and at the least a 'warning' that you cannot have more than 5 children per premise regardless of the number of adults present unless you are a licensed day care.
I didn't know this!!?? :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Momof4
I am a private owned daycare and currently have 3 daycare children in my care. I have my own two kids ( that do not count in my numbers ) and if I had one of their friend's over for a play date, which I do, that is not allowed?? Brunette moment and need some clerification.
I should also add that I have 2 more daycare children joining me later this year to bring my daycare full to 5 daycare children ( again during off months of school like Christmas and summer when my kids are home, they don't count in my numbers as I am private )
Jec if you are in Ontario and operating a 'business of home childcare in your home' you would be ok as long as your total number of children in the home who are not YOURS remain 5 or less during your business hours - even if you are not 'charging' that parent for your services you are supervising the child and it will affect your insurance!
It is that tricky 'grey' area of interpretation around the rules ... Joe Parent can have a birthday party on a Saturday afternoon and invite 12 kids to the house for a couple of hours without their parents present and be FINE cause they are not offering the 'business of daycare' in their home - its just a party and short term and if an accident occurs the regular home owners would cover it.
But during your 'daycare business hours' you need to follow the rules set out by the DNA or you could run into trouble both with being reported by someone who 'thinks' you are illegal OR with your insurance in an incident ... being a 'grey' area Insurance companies will use it as a way to negate your policy if you have more than 5 children in the home when an accident occurs and your policy stated it only covered '5 children in the program'... insurance ALWAYS looks for a way not to pay out so I would not give them one!
Personally if it were me I would avoid the issue by either having your child go to a friends house during your business hours and save play dates at your house for 'after business hours' OR when your ratio allows you to be under 5 with him there OR meet his friend and caregiver at a local public venue where it is not an issue.
As others have said Ontario is really cracking down on home daycare and if a complaint is lodged or something happens there will be consequences issued. Those involved in the drowning situation playdate mainly got off because of the grey area in interpretting the laws in the DNA but since then the ministry has come out and made it very clear what the "rules" are in this area.Quote:
Originally Posted by michellesmunchkins
Our childcare support association took up the fight and got directly in contact with the ministry to discuss it, gave them petitions for playdates such as caregivers getting together and bringing in a music teacher and sharing the cost. They got a letter back from the ministry saying no to playdates on private property.
The interpretation of the rules and this is more to cover the AXX of the ministry than anything else is that the mom across the street and her son can come and visit any time they want and she is responsible for him. The neighbour next door can not come over and her afterschoolers ever because any kids that are not her own are considered in your care and that puts you over the limit of 5 under 10. And of course we can all see where this makes sense right......well in the ministry eyes it does. Basically no one is responsible for another parent does with their child but them. Any child being cared for by another non parent adult comes under their guidelines and per premise is 5 daycare kids plus your own regardless of how many adults are there.
I recently had a very vindictive woman call the ministry on me because I was not willing to do as she wanted. The ministry thanked me for my time and complimented me on a having a wonderful day home. I am in Alberta and am private so I can have six children plus my own. The licencing officer told me that I can have a child over to play with my child during day home hours without an issue. She said if they ever came to check, I would have to call the parents and have them verify to the ministry over the phone, that the child is here for a play date and is not a part of my day home. They do not expect my child to go without a friend to play with all summer because mom has a day home.
I believe that if you think they are in the wrong, go ahead and report. The worst thing that could happen is that it was a misunderstanding and the provider is doing an excellent job. The other side is that they may be over their numbers and operating illegally which is putting children at risk. I would call.... but I am also a stickler for the rules :)
I am in the same boat. I know the rules for our province as I emailed child services and had them tell me exactly and keep the email for my own records as well. However as I wait for my son everyday I watch this woman across the street from the school and count the kids as they enter her home.... legal amount is 6 plus your own... I know none of the little ones are hers as she is older and her kids are teens, But she has 13 kids go into her house. 6 of which are under school age. The numbers here are 3 under the age of 3 and only 2 of those can be under the age of 2... she has 6. I just dont know if I should say anything... the parents dont seem to care so maybe I shouldnt either! :no: I DONT KNOW!!! It is frustrating to know that I STRUGGLED for over a year to fill the spots I had and she had enough for 2 day homes! :laugh: but at the same time... its her sanity, not mine. I would however never be able to live with myself if something happened to one of those kids because I kept my mouth shut. She is very patient and the kids all seem happy, but... the law is the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hand in Hand
13 kids??? Holy crap!
I know what you mean! I have one of those on my street too! I tried to report to the ministry today and all I got was an answering machine. Should I just leave an anonymous message?
My biggest thing was wanting to remain annonymous... I live in a very small town so dont need that backlash.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaycareLulu
Often the parents are unaware of numbers too. If you are advertising spaces make sure in your ad that you coopy and paste the ministry info making it clear to parents that unlike others in town, your daycare numbers stay within compliance. Once parents know they will start to think twice hopefully even if she is charging less.
She may wrongly think she can have 6 preschoolers plus 6 afterschoolers.
Another thing that people should remember is the liability factor - I worked in the insurance industry for years and if you have a home daycare which is not licenced, most Insurance companies will only let you have 5 kids + your own MAX. If god forbid something were to happen to one of the children and the insurance company found out they had more kids then they were allowed, they may not pay any liability claims so that provider could very well lose everything! Not really worth it in the long run....
Aside from that, it is very frustrating when you know that people are well over their limits and you are struggling to fill up your own daycare!
While I realize that people are just trying to make a living, you would have to be superwoman to look after 13 kids - and there is no way they are getting the attention they deserve with so many kids in one home!